Meg: Why such hate?

[Galenforcer]

I'm just cracking up reading post after post. Arguments like this should be documented into a book.

[Silith]

I've had a PT where Meg killed every unit in every chapter she was in. (As much as possible for 3-6, 3-12 and 3-13) This ended up with her having over 1100 kills at the end.

Gotta love the 4-E-5 reinforcements.

(Oh yes it was ofc on hard Mode and I did meatshield for her in 1-4)

[Anouleth]

I don't know why this guy is still arguing. Moreover, I don't know why the rest of us are still responding. Just by looking at this guy's choice of vocabulary, I can already tell that he's still somewhere back in 2006. There's not much that we can do to convince someone whose beliefs are deeply rooted into anti-Jeiganism.

I think you're right.

Then again I suppose it's fun to have a guy occasionally walk into SF with a "kick me" sign pasted on his back.

General Banzai 2: Electric Boogaloo

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Sothe takes maybe 70% of the kills in 1-4 in a 6 turn clear (or faster) and Nolan basically takes the rest. There's also no point in using Steel Swords when you can just forge an Iron Sword. A 6 turn clear also has a modest reliability at getting all of the items (Sothe needs to hit both of his 80% chances to dig up a Master Seal and a Beastfoe).

...So you're telling me it's almost impossible for you to get Meg a level through having her kill weakened laguz in one turn? I mean, I'm not sure what you'd call baby'ing, because she doesn't need much. Walking out at 5-6 basically means she'll have no problem holding her own after then.

It's honestly not that terrible. Aran's base spd lasts him fine through 1-6 (he may need +1 on base for 1-6-1) and he'd like +2 on base for 1-7. We're pushing favoritism territory to have him not get doubled in 1-E, but it's still less than what you suggest for Meg.

....He's 14 SPD at 20/--/-- and is glad to hit 22 SPD right before third-tier promotion. Meg's big issue statistically is that 22 SPD cap at second tier, but she at least gets like 16 levels to sit at that speed; Aran has to wade through shit to get there. No, his 24 SPD at 20/20/-- is, by your own words, piss poor (paraphrased).

You're missing a level lead and a +def affinity.

The level gap would be at best 1-2 going into that part of the game (Aran starts with a 3 level lead, and with the experience mechanics of the game, these gaps tend to close naturally). And I'm being nice here in assuming Meg and Aran will snag an equal number of kills, despite the fact that Meg offensively beats the living crap out of Aran with a guaranteed 2 attacks per round. In addition, if she keep up in the same realm of the rest of the DB unpromotes, she has a decent chance to start doubling enemies naturally in 1-7 (just needs to be 13/-- or 14/-- on average, since we forced a SPD ding on level 3->4 with BEXP) and possibly 1-F (needs to be 18/--).

Edward's AS is not always sufficient for him to double consistently. If Edward is not slightly spd blessed going into 1-4, there's not much of a future in store for him.

If Meg's naturally doubling in 1-7 and 1-F, Edward sure the hell is (you know, what units in 1-F CAN be doubled by a unpromoted unit).

You're talking to the guy who is largely responsible for trailblazing low turn runs in FE10. I think I know what I'm talking about.

Want a cookie? I think he wants a cookie.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Anouleth]

...So you're telling me it's almost impossible for you to get Meg a level through having her kill weakened laguz in one turn?

It's not that it's impossible. It's more that there's no reason to wait for Meg to catch up, and then gum down a laguz. Characters are supposed to help me kill enemies, not the other way around.

The level gap would be at best 1-2 going into that part of the game (Aran starts with a 3 level lead, and with the experience mechanics of the game, these gaps tend to close naturally). And I'm being nice here in assuming Meg and Aran will snag an equal number of kills, despite the fact that Meg offensively beats the living crap out of Aran with a guaranteed 2 attacks per round.

Meg doesn't double, ever. Edward, who has 4 more base speed and a perpetual level lead, struggles to double enemies. Meg has no chance.

In addition, if she keep up in the same realm of the rest of the DB unpromotes, she has a decent chance to start doubling enemies naturally in 1-7 (just needs to be 13/-- or 14/-- on average, since we forced a SPD ding on level 3->4 with BEXP) and possibly 1-F (needs to be 18/--).

If she's level 14 (which isn't happening, 11 levels in those four maps doesn't happen especially when you're shit in them), she has 15 speed. Which doubles like... the very very slowest magic using enemies and that's it.

Level 18 in 1-E means 18SPD. So she doubles Armours and Mages, and that's it.

If Meg's naturally doubling in 1-7 and 1-F, Edward sure the hell is (you know, what units in 1-F CAN be doubled by a unpromoted unit).

Edward is consistently borderline and needs to be like, exactly on his averages with no room to ever miss a speed proc. I'm a massive Edward fanboy, but even I see that he has doubling issues.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Anouleth

[aku chi]

The level gap would be at best 1-2 going into that part of the game (Aran starts with a 3 level lead, and with the experience mechanics of the game, these gaps tend to close naturally).

Aran joins earlier than Meg, 4 levels higher... In an efficient HM playthrough, Aran is lucky to reach level 17 by 1-E. Meg would be extremely lucky to reach level 15. In NM, you can add ~2-3 levels to those estimates.

....He's 14 SPD at 20/--/-- and is glad to hit 22 SPD right before third-tier promotion. Meg's big issue statistically is that 22 SPD cap at second tier, but she at least gets like 16 levels to sit at that speed; Aran has to wade through shit to get there. No, his 24 SPD at 20/20/-- is, by your own words, piss poor (paraphrased).

Aran can reliably Bexp for Spd in tier 2 starting at ~level 8 (he caps Str, Skl, and Def). So Aran can reach 26 Spd in tier 2 if we're willing to spend a bunch of Bexp on him. This isn't really recommended, because Aran is still mediocre in Part 4, but it's an option. Meg cannot exceed 22 Spd at tier 2, no matter what we do.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Aran joins earlier than Meg, 4 levels higher... In an efficient HM playthrough, Aran is lucky to reach level 17 by 1-E. Meg would be extremely lucky to reach level 15. In NM, you can add ~2-3 levels to those estimates.

It's realistically closer to 3 levels after BEXP use (assuming that if you didn't invest the pitifully small amount of BEXP Meg needs into Aran), and a level 4 Meg essentially has similar stats to a level 7 Aran (he does edge out overall though), except she's going to level slightly faster than him with the same number of stat ups per level, and she gets the advantage of more room to grow. It would be hard to argue that the level gap ever exceeds 3 levels, and it is often closer to 1-2.

Aran can reliably Bexp for Spd in tier 2 starting at ~level 8 (he caps Str, Skl, and Def). So Aran can reach 26 Spd in tier 2 if we're willing to spend a bunch of Bexp on him. This isn't really recommended, because Aran is still mediocre in Part 4, but it's an option. Meg cannot exceed 22 Spd at tier 2, no matter what we do.

...We can also do the same thing to Meg to get her STR, SKL, and DEF up (although with slightly less reliability until 20/14, granted) -- she has a 26 STR cap and a **30 DEF** cap in second tier, so all of a sudden we can use BEXP to make a unit that can't die except by hammer. I mean, what's going to kill her? If we're going BEXP use, by late part 3, she's rocking 74 avoid before supports, reasonably 24-26 DEF (we'd be looking more at 26-29 DEF by end of second tier, depending on luck), 18-21 RES. Aran and Meg essentially temporarily switch places from their roles in late tier 1, except Meg actually has some respectable evasion (it's about 10 less than a 20/20 Edward) whereas Aran did not. Have her run (or even have Jill drop her, I suppose) to a certain area, and everything within a 6-7 square radius is going to die. She has almost no weaknesses -- not to magic, not to physical units, certainly not to anything with low hit.

YOU HAVE TO TRY TO KILL HER. Trust me, I have. "Hey, Meg, want to play with the pretty tigers and dragons? WTF DO YOU MEAN YOU KILLED THEM ALL?! YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO DIE!" Her potential once she hits third tier is pretty insane.

I would like to clarify my argument. I just want Meg on the same tier as Aran and Edward, because she's overall just as easy to train in part 1 as either Edward or Aran (being harder to train on 1-4 and 1-6-1, about equal on 1-6-2, and then being easier from 1-7 on because she has more durability than Edward but can't be doubled like Aran) and ends up being a solid/good unit in the end.

P.S. Concerning the BEXP argument, I was actually suprised to see the enemy AS so low in 3-11. Aran, if he manages to get 26 SPD capped, will double just about everything. That being said, a 25-27 DEF Meg is looking at an enemy hit rate of ~75% on average, and taking (from melee) about 4-7 damage on average, 13 at the most (at 27 DEF; 2-5 damage, 11 at the most), while having pure crit immunity Aran can't claim (there's a few enemies with 30-43% crit rates, and Aran has craptastic luck) and massively better RES (20-21 versus 10). So 25 DEF Meg is being...about 4-10HKO'd; 7-8HKO'd on average with a ~65-85% chance to be hit. 27 DEF Meg is being 4-**20**HKO'd; 10-13HKO'd on average with, again, a ~65-85% chance to be hit. **On HM!**

P.P.S. Once Meg hits third tier, she all of a sudden basically keeps this durability, skyrockets in speed in the next few levels, and basically gets a 1/4-1/3 chance to OHKO any enemy w/o Nihil in the game with an iron sword.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[PKL]

Is this guy really comparing Meg to Edward? Facepalm...

Dude, we're talking HM here. How the F is Meg going to get a level up in 1-4? She cant kill 3 cats ever in 1-4 due to extreme suckiness and if we're playing efficiently, she wont even have time to do anything...A level 5 edward in 1-4? Thats just hate, man. If ur imaginary Meg can get 11 levels in 4 chapters then, how is Edward getting only 1 level in 4 chapters? Favoritism. Trust me, Meg getting a level would be a miracle, period. She can't be shoved. She has 5..5 MOVE! So she cant reach enemies quickly and to make things worse, she has horrible terrain penalties due to her class. She'll never get enough levels to double unless you move at a snail's pace every chapter. Has bad caps, weird growths for an armor, gets doubled in her starting chapter and will never ever contribute as anything more than a shovebot in an efficient playthrough.

[aku chi]

It's realistically closer to 3 levels after BEXP use (assuming that if you didn't invest the pitifully small amount of BEXP Meg needs into Aran)

Why would you assume that? With the Cexp Aran can get it 1-3 and the Bexp you would give to Meg, Aran can easily reach level 8 by 1-4.

and a level 4 Meg essentially has similar stats to a level 7 Aran (he does edge out overall though)

Aran has +1 Spd, +1 Atk (from Lances), +1 Def, and +3 HP.

...We can also do the same thing to Meg to get her STR, SKL, and DEF up (although with slightly less reliability until 20/14, granted)

We can't. Meg's growth order is:

Lck: 75

Spd: 65

HP: 60

Res: 50

Skl: 40

Def: 35

Str: 35

Mag: 15

Bexp level-ups disproportionately favor higher-growth stats. So even after Meg caps Spd and Lck (~20/14), Str and Def are not amongst her highest three growths. Using Bexp at any point (before 20/20/14) will result in Meg gaining less Str and Def than usual.

Aran, on the other hand, caps Str, Skl, and Def by 20/8, leaving HP, Spd, and Lck as his three highest growths. These just so happen to be the stats Aran is most in need of. In NM, it's realistic for Aran to reach 20/8 (or equivalent) by 3-13, so we have the option to Bexp him to his tier 2 Spd cap. With 28 Str, 28 Spd, and 27 Def entering Part 4, Aran can be a valuable contributor. In HM, Aran is hardly worth using, and certainly not worth pumping Bexp into at tier 2.

Have [Meg] run (or even have Jill drop her, I suppose) to a certain area, and everything within 1 6-7 square radius is going to die. She has almost no weaknesses -- not to magic, not to physical units, certainly not to anything with low hit.

Her durability is nothing special, but even if it were, Meg will double nothing and struggle (and generally fail) to 2HKO. I'm unimpressed.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Is this guy really comparing Meg to Edward? Facepalm...

Dude, we're talking HM here. How the F is Meg going to get a level up in 1-4? She cant kill 3 cats ever in 1-4 due to extreme suckiness and if we're playing efficiently, she wont even have time to do anything...A level 5 edward in 1-4? Thats just hate, man. If ur imaginary Meg can get 11 levels in 4 chapters then, how is Edward getting only 1 level in 4 chapters? Favoritism. Trust me, Meg getting a level would be a miracle, period. She can't be shoved. She has 5..5 MOVE! So she cant reach enemies quickly and to make things worse, she has horrible terrain penalties due to her class. She'll never get enough levels to double unless you move at a snail's pace every chapter. Has bad caps, weird growths for an armor, gets doubled in her starting chapter and will never ever contribute as anything more than a shovebot in an efficient playthrough.

...Do I seriously need to make a video of this to shut people up?

Anyways, I'm done. I concede the argument. I obviously am not going to convince anybody if people look at potentially being 8-20HKO'd on HM and go "Meh". The Meg hate is too strong for any non-charged argument to occur.

[eclipse]

I don't think it's because any of us hate Meg for her love of pookums. It's more like she's a unit that gets shafted by her caps and class, and is way too underleveled during a time when BEXP is at a premium. From a gameplay perspective, using her is less than optimal. If you want to wander way outside of efficient play, then she's viable.

[I.M. Gei]

...Do I seriously need to make a video of this to shut people up?

We don't care because we can baby the hell out of anyone and make them combat gods; most units, believe it or not, cost less to get there than Meg will.

Anyways, I'm done. I concede the argument. I obviously am not going to convince anybody if people look at potentially being 8-20HKO'd on HM and go "Meh". The Meg hate is too strong for any non-charged argument to occur.

Let's see... 2RKO'd by the entire map in her joining chapter, whether or not she gets some BEXP; 9 AS leaves Cats a threat, and they will still 2RKO. Tigers still pop her for 12 damage for a clean 2HKO. If you are going to talk about Meg's potential, understand that many people you argue with are looking at what it takes to get her there and whether the payoff is worth the asinine amount of resources we need to get her to that potential in the first place. You are saying that Meg can get to these impressive levels of durability after an incredible amount of babying and dragging our feet through the ground. Color us unimpressed; tee can make combat gods out of the vast majority of characters in the game (including, believe it or not, Edward). But hey, feel free to blame it on the "Meg hate." You've whiffed every single argument devastating to your case and nitpicked others.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

I don't think it's because any of us hate Meg for her love of pookums. It's more like she's a unit that gets shafted by her caps and class, and is way too underleveled during a time when BEXP is at a premium. From a gameplay perspective, using her is less than optimal. If you want to wander way outside of efficient play, then she's viable.

I'm sorry. but I still say way underleveled is severely overstating it. I understand that it's not like it's a joke to pick her up and go (i.e. level her easily to begin with), but Aran, Edward, and Jill all have problems of their own when leveling.

Jill's base STR for 1-6-1 is pretty sad (Meg, if you bother to use her from pickup, has better STR and comes with a weapon type that has a low WT) and it's hard for her to really get going without a forged weapon. Good starting level, decent bases. Flying and canto is always nice, but I still contend that move means less in FE10 than in many other FEs. Later on, she can abuse Paragon and Canto, and statistically ends up well. I still prefer Haar. 25 SPD cap, which allows her to double most (but not all) enemies by the end of part 3.

Edward's durability is terrible (which becomes a bigger issue in HM), and enemy hit is so high in part 1 that his good avoid doesn't shine as much as it should. His much lower base STR basically means that he has less offensive potential than Meg unless he can double and she can't, which tends to be most likely in 1-6-2 or 1-7, right as he approaches SPD cap for tier 1. Meg, while having Edward's same DEF growth, has a base DEF that matches a 20/-- Edward and notably better RES base/growth. Later on, he suffers from low-ish STR caps for myrms, which cramp his (imo) amazing offensive growths. Continuously suffers from DEF/RES issues until BEXP can be used at capped stats. Avoid should skyrocket with Resolve, however.

Aran has nice STR, SKL, and DEF, but he takes a surprising amount of damage against people who double him and against mages. Meg, I contend, is actually more survivable overall provided you get her into not-doubled range with BEXP and a level in 1-4. And no, it's not hard to do it, I HAVE EASILY DONE IT (i.e. I'm not just doing hand-waving and theorycrafting). Has a rather rocky start in second tier in 3-6 (and gets absolutely trashed by cats outside of Resolve speed boost), but BEXP use can possibly grant him 26 SPD by the end of part 3, giving him just enough speed to double everything in part 3 -- not bad.

Meg has her own issues that have been beat to death on this topic. Later on, she faces some second tier SPD problems, but is a fanatstic third tier unit with Luna, good avoid, and great survivability overall. Continuously suffers from low MOV, which may or may not be an issue depending on the map. Low MOV can be rectified by Celerity, and Resolve should probably make her double everything in part 3 and essentially make her have great avoid. In Resolve-proc'd combat, she essentially becomes Edward with slightly less avoid and ATK (until late second tier) with better defense and resistance.

...I think that's a pretty fair analysis of those four DB characters. And let's be honest, you can't argue Meg would be worthless because "it takes too much work" unless you openly admit both Aran and Edward are equally shit for that reason too (but yet anybody who openly admits to using either of them doesn't face vile rebuttal). Flying+Canto could save Jill.

@ BlackRock: I haven't whiffed any arguments. I believe I've taken most or all of them head-on, or as much as I reasonably can in a 4 person to 1 debate. I've proven that I can accept and adapt to good arguments, but all I've seen you do is basically say "WRONG. THIS ARGUMENT IS SHIT." without citing any real proof besides an outright denial or assuming Meg never gets a level in part 1, ever, which is blatantly false.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Anouleth]

...Do I seriously need to make a video of this to shut people up?

Anyways, I'm done. I concede the argument. I obviously am not going to convince anybody if people look at potentially being 8-20HKO'd on HM and go "Meh". The Meg hate is too strong for any non-charged argument to occur.

This might surprise you, but having potential to have decent durability is not good enough, especially when it's coupled with poor offense and mobility.

Moreover, Meg's durability is not really very good in earlygame (being behind Aran's and Nolan's). Nor does her durability go anywhere significant in Part 3. A 20/1 Meg is getting 2HKOed by Tigers and 3HKOed by Cats in 3-6: this is approximately on the same level as Sothe.

I also don't buy your tale of Meg somehow surviving 4-5 in HM at 20/10. On average, Tigers 2HKO her, Cats 3HKO and double her, Hawks 3HKO and double her, Ravens 4HKO and double her, and while Dragons don't 1HKO, they do leave her on less than 5HP. The least accurate enemies, the Tigers, have about 70 hit on her, so her physical durability is abysmal as well. Even some dumbshit like Lucia has better durability performance than that, since she's at least not doubled and even scrapes a 3HKO from Cats/Ravens/Hawks, as well as having much better avoid.

...I think that's a pretty fair analysis of those four DB characters. And let's be honest, you can't argue Meg would be worthless because "it takes too much work" unless you openly admit both Aran and Edward are equally shit for that reason too (but yet anybody who openly admits to using either of them doesn't face vile rebuttal).

Edward has been trained in HM before, although he relies on luck with his speed growth and you couldn't do it on the very fastest playthroughs. Look at my playthrough for details. I can't remember any fast playthroughs that use Aran. I vaguely remember smash doing one... but I could be wrong, and I don't recall the quality.

I doubt that efficiently training Meg is possible.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Anouleth

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

This might surprise you, but having potential to have decent durability is not good enough, especially when it's coupled with poor offense and mobility.

Moreover, Meg's durability is not really very good in earlygame (being behind Aran's and Nolan's). Nor does her durability go anywhere significant in Part 3. A 20/1 Meg is getting 2HKOed by Tigers and 3HKOed by Cats in 3-6: this is approximately on the same level as Sothe.

Aran has more defense, but less avoid. Aran also gets doubled (again, Resolve plays into this, but gives both Aran and Meg significant and slightly different bonuses), while Meg does not, giving Meg generally more durability by 1-6-1 or 1-6-2, depending on how one plays.

I also don't buy your tale of Meg somehow surviving 4-5 in HM at 20/10. On average, Tigers 2HKO her, Cats 3HKO and double her, Hawks 3HKO and double her, Ravens 4HKO and double her, and while Dragons don't 1HKO, they do leave her on less than 5HP. The least accurate enemies, the Tigers, have about 70 hit on her, so her physical durability is abysmal as well. Even some dumbshit like Lucia has better durability performance than that, since she's at least not doubled and even scrapes a 3HKO from Cats/Ravens/Hawks, as well as having much better avoid.

No, no, it was NM. Either you read it wrong or I made a rather serious typo in an earlier post. The first time I was playing FE10, and as such I was basically forced to play through normal mode to unlock hard, and was breezing through it for the most part, trying to max experience while meeting all of the BEXP turn counts. So on 4-5, Meg's sitting at like 20/10/--, and I'm getting a little tired of trying to raise her (fed BEXP to Edward and Leonardo in a desperate attempt to make the DB archer not a complete failure), so I give her a few silver swords, a stack of concoctions, and send her on her way, having her plop her fat ass on a bush. It's tough going at first, and I'm basically convinced that she's probably screwed, then she starts gaining levels...and then it gets easier...and then she promotes...and then it's a joke.

Her speed skyrockets again now that she doesn't have that stupid second tier cap, she's starting to dodge more and more reliably, starts doubling some stuff, and she's just OHKO'ing crap with Luna left and right. I tense up a bit as the dragons come, but all they end up doing is giving her two chances to proc Luna consistently and crumble beneath her feet without so much as really hurting her. When she is hit, her defense is pretty much making it easily healable through the very occasional concoction use. And before I know it, she's basically killed tens of laguz, if not close to one hundred (I don't even know, I lost count). I literally let Izuka spawn the living crap out of them for 20-30 turns. Been a year, but it's kind of hard to remember something so stupidly fun and awesome like that.

Edward has been trained in HM before, although he relies on luck with his speed growth and you couldn't do it on the very fastest playthroughs. Look at my playthrough for details. I can't remember any fast playthroughs that use Aran. I vaguely remember smash doing one... but I could be wrong, and I don't recall the quality.

I doubt that efficiently training Meg is possible.

I have raised Meg in a maximizing BEXP/CEXP run (which was the one I was doing last April; essentially means beating all turn count caps and actually using t1 DB units), and she's really nice if you get her 15/-- or slightly above by 1-E, which is really doable. It's hard to describe, but she dodges a fair amount like Edward, but you don't have to worry about her dying because 14-16 DEF late first tier means she can take a hit or two comfortably. As for stupidly high efficiency playthroughs, I'm not sure. You'd probably make it impossible for any tier 1 DB unit to get enough levels in part 1 to be self-sufficient in part 3 (as you've essentially said) if you were to blaze through it at theoretical minimum speeds. So I wonder why Meg is so much lower on the tier list (and more universally despised) when she's very arguably right on par with Edward and Aran, the three of whom I think should basically be in the same tier and are equally usable.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[I.M. Gei]

@ BlackRock: I haven't whiffed any arguments. I believe I've taken most or all of them head-on, or as much as I reasonably can in a 4 person to 1 debate. I've proven that I can accept and adapt to good arguments, but all I've seen you do is basically say "WRONG. THIS ARGUMENT IS SHIT." without citing any real proof besides an outright denial or assuming Meg never gets a level in part 1, ever, which is blatantly false.

Amazing straw man. I never said that Meg never gets a level in Part 1, much as you wish I did. We've cited how Meg does not, even with a level of BEXP in 1-4's base, avoid getting 2RKO'd by the entire map. You have said nothing to refute it. We've even pulled out averages for you and explained to you that just because Meg is at a much lower level than pretty much every other unit, that it doesn't mean she levels up as quickly as units such as Edward (king of the world in 1-P, and virtually solos kills there; he should arrive at 1-1 with at least a level or two under his belt, and stay fairly useful and grow for a few chapters given the lack of better units) and Jill (we've explained this to you already) who have significant advantages over her in earlygame. This means they start ahead of her and stay ahead of her for pretty much the whole game, for she isn't killing anything on her own. We've shown you how her durability (lol 21HP/10DEF/8SPD bases: these cripple her) and offense (a whopping... 21 ATK and 8 AS at base with an Iron Sword forge) are among the worst in earlygame and that she does not gain much offensive or durability leads over anyone quickly... well, when you gum enemies down to single-digit HP and have Meg finish them off, I suppose that she can let her incredible 35% STR and 35% DEF growth kick in. Meg's bases put her in a situation where it's very hard for her to level up and when she does, she won't level quickly enough for it to make a difference.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Black★Rock Shooter

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Amazing straw man. I never said that Meg never gets a level in Part 1, much as you wish I did. We've cited how Meg does not, even with a level of BEXP in 1-4's base, avoid getting 2RKO'd by the entire map. You have said nothing to refute it. We've even pulled out averages for you and explained to you that just because Meg is at a much lower level than pretty much every other unit, that it doesn't mean she levels up as quickly as units such as Edward (king of the world in 1-P, and virtually solos kills there; he should arrive at 1-1 with at least a level or two under his belt, and stay fairly useful and grow for a few chapters given the lack of better units) and Jill (we've explained this to you already) who have significant advantages over her in earlygame. This means they start ahead of her and stay ahead of her for pretty much the whole game, for she isn't killing anything on her own. We've shown you how her durability (lol 21HP/10DEF/8SPD bases: these cripple her) and offense (a whopping... 21 ATK and 8 AS at base with an Iron Sword forge) are among the worst in earlygame and that she does not gain much offensive or durability leads over anyone quickly... well, when you gum enemies down to single-digit HP and have Meg finish them off, I suppose that she can let her incredible 35% STR and 35% DEF growth kick in. Meg's bases put her in a situation where it's very hard for her to level up and when she does, she won't level quickly enough for it to make a difference.

...Fine, fine. You could've just asked. When I went through 1-4, Edward got 2RKO'd, so did Aran, and so does Meg. That's why it's plausible and not a disadvantage to use Meg over either of the two in 1-4; Laura can easily top all of them off after a hit, and it's not like you lose anything by plopping a level 4 Meg at a chokepoint in place of a level 7 Aran, who can do his own thing somewhere else in the level. Meg only gets doubled at first by the fastest enemies in there, which are easily located in regions Meg should never tread anyways. This is, by far, Meg's roughest level (where Edward's might be 1-1, I suppose) in the entire game, and honestly it's not even that bad on HM. Going through part 1, Meg ends up outgrowing that oddly low speed base very quickly (which is her real problem, not STR/DEF, as 10 STR/10 DEF bases are actually very decent compared to Edward and keep her durability and offensive potential respectable). When I did a similar technique with Aran through 1-4, he starts to get doubled in late part 1, making it harder and harder to level him until I can feed him BEXP levels (i.e. get him as close to 99 EXP as possible when he starts capping a stat or two, and then feed him SPD; feels a lot like babying when you do it!).

Jill IS ahead of Meg when she first joins (level 14 beats level 7...more news at 11!), but when Meg comes out of 1-E, her defense/STR/SPD/LUK reach levels that basically make Meg tie Jill going into 3-6. Meg and Jill face oddly low speed caps for their growths in second tier, although Jill's is higher than Meg's. Meg has the opportunity to gain some nice DEF/RES and continues to be a durable unit with nice evasion throughout part 3, while Jill can be a valuable member in combat and with flying/canto. In third tier, Meg basically takes off, getting a stupidly good mastery skill and continuing to get extremely good durability, which nice DEF and what's probably the best RES (or damn close to it) of any melee unit in the game. Jill also excels, but for different reasons, and I'd give third tier Meg the offensive edge if not due to Luna alone.

...But like I said, either Meg actively participates in 1-4 or she goes home. She takes care of herself without needing any active baby'ing past the first couple of chapters after you get her, but she NEEDS to outgrow that 8 SPD base, and fast. Aran's SPD needs to be pampered continuously, which is why I'm not a fan of him.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Florete]

Anyways, I'm done. I concede the argument. I obviously am not going to convince anybody if people look at potentially being 8-20HKO'd on HM and go "Meh". The Meg hate is too strong for any non-charged argument to occur.

(Almost) Any unit can be a rockstar come part 4 given the right attention. This is not convincing.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

(Almost) Any unit can be a rockstar come part 4 given the right attention. This is not convincing.

Yes, but many of those cases come from ample BEXP stat manipulation. Meg's comes from her mastery, which requires no real investment to cash in on. She's comes more of a god than a rock star given BEXP attention. Luna essentially makes her offense potent, her speed is obviously decent in third tier given her growth, she caps LUK easily, her STR/DEF is decent, she doesn't even suffer from any potential problems against mages.

Edward needs BEXP to cover his DEF, Aran needs BEXP for his low speed, Leonardo for speed, etc. But Meg...doesn't need BEXP, although she obviously benefits from it once her LUK is capped and ESPECIALLY if her HP is capped.

Some units (Brom, for instance) can't use BEXP to gain neccesary stats (or enough to matter), so they'll never have a chance at end-game. Meg isn't one of them.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Colonel M]

(Almost) Any unit can be a rockstar come part 4 given the right attention. This is not convincing.

Sure, Meg can be 8-20HKOed, but how about lugging her fat ass over there in order to do so? The amount of cesspool experience and BEXP to even get her to "meh" stage? And the fuck you talking about Nolan and Aran not being able to "tank"? FFS if we want to talk about Meg being an Avoid God, Nolan can be with Zihark or Volug to be just like that! Nolan also doesn't need a shitload of Speed to double in Part 3 because he has Beastfoe, Tarvos, and Crossbow working in his favor. Aran has the forged Steel Lance, which I guess can help with OHKOing Cats and being borderline on killing Tigers.

Seriously, we hate Meg because she's inefficient, she's not really that appealing to look at, and there are better tanks. Who cares about Meg having a 30 Def cap? Meg doesn't even cap Def in Tier 2! Hell, she's almost 6 points away from it! Another disadvantage, to add insult to the injury? Meg fails to cap stats like Aran, Nolan, and Edward do in Tier 2. Let's see what we have:

Meg caps Spd at 20/4 and Luck at 20/14. With Seraph Robe, she can at least cap HP at 20/6...

Edward caps HP at 20/11, Str at 20/12, Skl at 20/15, and Spd at 20/16.

Nolan caps Mag at 20/5, Skl and Res at 20/10, and Spd at 20/17. Nolan with Seraph Robe can cap HP at 20/15.

Aran caps Def at 20/7, and Str and Skl at 20/8. Seraph Robe caps his HP at 20/8 too.

I get that you conceded, but how much further must we beat a dead horse to get the picture here? Meg sucks. Like, Wendy-level of suck. The only good news is she has Spd, but like others said: when Edward, who is one of the faster units in the game, struggles to double in Hard Mode, how the fuck do you expect Meg to do that, and then fail at tanking at the same time? To go further with your statement:

...But like I said, either Meg actively participates in 1-4 or she goes home. She takes care of herself without needing any active baby'ing past the first couple of chapters after you get her, but she NEEDS to outgrow that 8 SPD base, and fast. Aran's SPD needs to be pampered continuously, which is why I'm not a fan of him.

Let's twist this into a way you may understand. Meg needs to be babysat to get kills in 1-4. She needs insane Spd parameters to double, and her Spd will constantly be below the bar to double. She obviously cannot tank either. Hell, just look at 1-6 in Hard Mode: to get about 14 Spd, which doubles some Mages (woohoo), she needs to be Level 12-13, which is a 10-11 level jump. That's fucking crazy. She can double slow Tigers at 20/1, but now try convincing me on how she's getting to 20/1 by 3-6, reliably and somewhat efficiently (hell I'm not putting max efficiency on the plate). Aran's Spd can be patched. It takes some BEXP and a Speedwing, but he can be mobile for Part 4. Oh, and to be a douchebag, Meg has 1 less Mov than Aran and can wield Celerity if Meg can.

Aran

[Florete]

Yes, but many of those cases come from ample BEXP stat manipulation. Meg's comes from her mastery, which requires no real investment to cash in on. She's comes more of a god than a rock star given BEXP attention. Luna essentially makes her offense potent, her speed is obviously decent in third tier given her growth, she caps LUK easily, her STR/DEF is decent, she doesn't even suffer from any potential problems against mages.

Edward needs BEXP to cover his DEF, Aran needs BEXP for his low speed, Leonardo for speed, etc. But Meg...doesn't need BEXP, although she obviously beneifts greatly once her LUK is capped and ESPECIALLY if her HP is capped.

No.

Tibarn, Naesala, Nailah, Skrimir: units more or less guaranteed to perform well in part 4. Base stats should be sufficient.

Nolan, Volug, Elincia, Haar, Ike, Titania, Shinon, Gatrie, Mia, Ranulf, Janaff, Ulki: units who perform well (or as well as their class allows) if you just use them regularly and potentially perform even better with a little attention.

Edward, Aran, Jill, Zihark, Marcia, Nephenee, Mordecai, Calill, Rolf, Boyd, Oscar, Tanith: units who can perform decent to great but may need a bit more attention in getting there than those listed above. BEXP buffering and stat boosters may be required but it should be worth it.

Note that I left out units like healers and herons.

Meg is in the next list: units who don't perform particularly well (in part 4) without rather significant effort to get there. This includes kill-feeding, lots of BEXP, multiple stat boosters, etc. In Meg's case, even if she gets this, her class hinders her from performing as well as just about any other unit. The only mastery that consistently leaves enemies alive is Bane (notice how neither of its users are in this list), so the only advantage Luna has over others is its activation rate, but her middling Skill combined with inconsistent doubling makes that problematic as well. She isn't locked to Swords after promotion, which is nice, but her weapon levels in Lances and Axes especially are hard to make good enough for her to use the better weapons, and she doesn't have anything like innate crit to compensate. She can only really be effective in Ike's route because she can't move in the Desert, 4-2 is long, and 4-5 again makes it hard for her to move, though that's not to say 4-4 is easy on her.

Take a step back. I am not the kind of person who says that someone is wrong just because they disagree with the majority opinion, but you are alone here, and there are at least 5 others telling you you're wrong. If you still believe you're right and want to keep this up, try it from a different angle, because what you are doing now is not working. However, I'd sooner suggest you consider the possibility that you're wrong; the FE10 tier list has thousands of posts. We've discussed every single character and know them all pretty well. We've used every character in different playstyles. We know what we're talking about.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[dondon151]

Meg is in the next list: units who don't perform particularly well (in part 4) without rather significant effort to get there.

I think Meg is in a lower list: units who don't perform particularly well in part 4 even with significant effort to get there. Having the lowest movement with the worst movement type is soooo bad.

I'm curious to see how long this charade will continue.

Edited November 9, 2011 by dondon151

[Anouleth]

Yes, but many of those cases come from ample BEXP stat manipulation. Meg's comes from her mastery, which requires no real investment to cash in on. She's comes more of a god than a rock star given BEXP attention. Luna essentially makes her offense potent, her speed is obviously decent in third tier given her growth, she caps LUK easily, her STR/DEF is decent, she doesn't even suffer from any potential problems against mages.

Luna does the same thing as any mastery skill. Every Mastery Skill is essentially a OHKO with exceptions like Bane. Meg doesn't have particularly good proc rates either due to her mediocre Skill.

Her speed is not decent in third tier. She has 24 speed. That's lower than the likes of Haar and Kieran, who have serious speed issues and likely won't double anything without help. True, her speed grows faster, but she takes many levels just to eke out a 1 point lead over them. When I think "decent speed", I think of someone who can actually double enemies.

Luck is a relatively weak stat since it's largely only helpful for buffering durability... and even then is only effectual given good speed as well.

Edward needs BEXP to cover his DEF, Aran needs BEXP for his low speed, Leonardo for speed, etc. But Meg...doesn't need BEXP, although she obviously benefits from it once her LUK is capped and ESPECIALLY if her HP is capped.

Doesn't need? You mean that she can't use BEXP. You'll find that Edward and Aran do not "need" BEXP, but they can make good use of it, which is more than what Meg can do.

Some units (Brom, for instance) can't use BEXP to gain neccesary stats (or enough to matter), so they'll never have a chance at end-game. Meg isn't one of them.

What is Meg going to do with BEXP? Grow wings?

Aran has more defense, but less avoid. Aran also gets doubled (again, Resolve plays into this, but gives both Aran and Meg significant and slightly different bonuses), while Meg does not, giving Meg generally more durability by 1-6-1 or 1-6-2, depending on how one plays.

Meg would need to gain twice as many levels as Aran in order to beat him in speed by 1-6-1, which is a ridiculous conception when as I have mentioned before, she starts off much worse than him. The fact that you think that Meg can gain six levels in two chapters and that Aran cannot gain three levels in more time just shows how completely delusional you are.

Meg's avoid lead is worthless. Enemy hit is usually high enough that you can never rely on her dodging.

I have raised Meg in a maximizing BEXP/CEXP run (which was the one I was doing last April; essentially means beating all turn count caps and actually using t1 DB units), and she's really nice if you get her 15/-- or slightly above by 1-E, which is really doable.

Yeah, I'm sure it's doable. People use dumbshits like Astrid and Fiona and Lyre all the time. The fact that she's barely usable is not impressing anyone. Nobody is saying that Meg cannot be used. Merely that she cannot be used in an efficient run, almost by definition. Efficient runs do not attempt to salvage units as bad as Meg.

It's hard to describe, but she dodges a fair amount like Edward, but you don't have to worry about her dying because 14-16 DEF late first tier means she can take a hit or two comfortably. As for stupidly high efficiency playthroughs, I'm not sure. You'd probably make it impossible for any tier 1 DB unit to get enough levels in part 1 to be self-sufficient in part 3 (as you've essentially said) if you were to blaze through it at theoretical minimum speeds. So I wonder why Meg is so much lower on the tier list (and more universally despised) when she's very arguably right on par with Edward and Aran, the three of whom I think should basically be in the same tier and are equally usable.

If you cannot grasp how Meg who loses EVERYTHING (except for the useless Resistance stat) forever to Edward and Aran in an efficient playthrough is below them, far below them, then you are a complete idiot. As I have already elaborated, Meg does not beat Aran in durability, and she does not beat him in durability ever. Her avoid is useless and her defense and HP are worse forever. She is never fast enough to double anything but the slowest of dumbshit magic users and Generals, and her strength is worse than his too. Edward has four chapters in which he is useful before Meg even exists. Moreover, when she shows up he tears her apart offensively due to Wrath, maybe even doubling and comparable strength and has a mobility lead. She cannot even boast a durability lead for a long time because she is at risk of getting doubled.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Anouleth

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

No.

Tibarn, Naesala, Nailah, Skrimir: units more or less guaranteed to perform well in part 4. Base stats should be sufficient.

Nolan, Volug, Elincia, Haar, Ike, Titania, Shinon, Gatrie, Mia, Ranulf, Janaff, Ulki: units who perform well (or as well as their class allows) if you just use them regularly and potentially perform even better with a little attention.

Edward, Aran, Jill, Zihark, Marcia, Nephenee, Mordecai, Calill, Rolf, Boyd, Oscar, Tanith: units who can perform decent to great but may need a bit more attention in getting there than those listed above. BEXP buffering and stat boosters may be required but it should be worth it.

Note that I left out units like healers and herons.

Meg is in the next list: units who don't perform particularly well (in part 4) without rather significant effort to get there. This includes kill-feeding, lots of BEXP, multiple stat boosters, etc. In Meg's case, even if she gets this, her class hinders her from performing as well as just about any other unit. The only mastery that consistently leaves enemies alive is Bane (notice how neither of its users are in this list), so the only advantage Luna has over others is its activation rate, but her middling Skill combined with inconsistent doubling makes that problematic as well. She isn't locked to Swords after promotion, which is nice, but her weapon levels in Lances and Axes especially are hard to make good enough for her to use the better weapons, and she doesn't have anything like innate crit to compensate. She can only really be effective in Ike's route because she can't move in the Desert, 4-2 is long, and 4-5 again makes it hard for her to move, though that's not to say 4-4 is easy on her.

Take a step back. I am not the kind of person who says that someone is wrong just because they disagree with the majority opinion, but you are alone here, and there are at least 5 others telling you you're wrong. If you still believe you're right and want to keep this up, try it from a different angle, because what you are doing now is not working. However, I'd sooner suggest you consider the possibility that you're wrong; the FE10 tier list has thousands of posts. We've discussed every single character and know them all pretty well. We've used every character in different playstyles. We know what we're talking about.

Look, I still think you're severely underestimating Meg's end-game (and no, she does not need BEXP to succeed, and the only stat booster I'd ever consider giving her is a secret book in part 1 for her low base SKL), but still...

...Anyways, thank you for being reasonable in this thread, RFoF. I really do appreciate it. Like I said, you all, I'm done with this argument. I think it's evident by now that it's going nowhere.

P.S. Damn you all for making me want to play Radiant Dawn HM while in the middle of a HHM S rank log .

Edited November 9, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[nflchamp]

Look, I still think you're severely underestimating Meg's end-game (and no, she does not need BEXP to succeed, and the only stat booster I'd ever consider giving her is a secret book in part 1 for her low base SKL), but still...

It's not that anyone is underestimating her endgame, it's just that nearly any other character given the same treatment is going to end up as good as, if not better than, Meg at endgame. AKA Meg is not winning endgame, or not by anywhere near enough to make up for the fact that she sucked harder than pretty much anyone else at the beginning of her existence.