Let's Compare Fire Emblem Sword Of Seals & Fire Emblem Dark Dragon Sword Of Light

[Refa]

So after I made this offhand comment on a thread about how FE6 was quite similar to FE1, I was kind of curious about what exactly the similarities were. I mean, we all know they have basically the same starting parties and whatnot, but what about the other similarities? Well, that's what this thead is for. Most likely such a thing will only be of interest to myself and be completely self-servicing rather than actually helpful to anyone...SPOILER ALERT. Let's get started with Chapter 1.

Both of these are Fire Emblem games apparently! And just like every other Fire Emblem game, both have legendary swords that in this case appear on the title screen.

I also like how the fan translations inadvertently put the translated titles in similar (well, opposite) positions. This thread is off to good start!

Both continents have a history of the humes not getting along with their dragon neighbors. In FE6, the humans are dicks to the dragons and go to war and then win the war that they caused with seven (give or take a few) super powerful wepons. It's nice to know that good won in the end!

In FE1, the humans are dicks to the dragons (business as usual!) and then Medeus kicks all of their asses into submission. Thankfully, Anime Jesus Anri is there to save the day with Falchion (which is quite similar to the titular Sword Of Seals, but we'll get to that later).

Now in ye modern times, main character must defend the homeland/continent from incoming threat! In FE6, the story about how Dark Dragon rise from the dead is hidden from the player till later on. You could say the same for main character saving world, but come on, it's Fire Emblem. Kinda expected.

The parallel to Gharnef in FE6 would be Yahn, who plays a much less stronger role in the story and isn't really much like Gharnef at all. FE6 is kind of wierd in that it doesn't have an evil mage who's just evil and wants to destroy everything because he can. And weirdly enough, despite Yahn "taking Gharnef's role", Idoun is the one who dresses in the gloomy drags.

Kind of like we'll see with Lilina down the road!

Did I mention the SPOILERS yet?

And apparently both of the main dudes have been training in the Art Of Fighting™ for the past couple of years, not that you'd notice from their mediocre base stats.

They begin practically the exact same way, with several bandits/water bandits taking over the castle, and a straggler picking off a village before moving to the next (which is near the player units). Difference is the thief offers up good EXP while the bandit is extra annoying and not as EXPlicious.

Sheeda tells Marth to help her save her father from the water bandits, a premise not unfamiliar to people who've played any other Fire Emblem game ever.

If Fire Emblem was more popular, I have a feeling this scene would be iconic. Heck, it should be iconic just for this.

Unfortunately for Roy, Lilina Not Sheeda is stuck in home base with his dad.

She'd be so much better if she joined right now (and had slightly better bases and +10% speed growth but I digress).

So he has to have his man Lance relay the message of ALIENS AND MONSTERS

So Lance really just tells Roy about bandits.

Right off the bat, the two starting parties are almost identical, with a Pegasus Knight missing from the FE6 lineup (although for my money, Not Sheeda would have fit pretty well here). So let's compare them directly!

Their base stats are pretty near identical! Only difference is Marth is better at everything in Skill and Speed (although in the original FE1, he only had 3 base skill, hahahaha).

Roy: 80% HP 40% STR 50% SKL 40% SPD 60% LCK 25% DEF 30% RES

Marth (FE1): 90% HP 50% STR 40% SKL 50% SPD 70% LCK 20% DEF 0% RES

Marth (FE3): 90% HP 50% STR 40% SKL 50% SPD 70% LCK 20% DEF 3% RES

Marth (FE11): 80% HP 50% STR 40% SKL 50% SPD 70% LCK 20% DEF 2% RES

(yes the only thing that's changed about Marth is RES and some insignificant HP in FE11)

Their growths are pretty similar too! All of his growths are within a 10% range of Marth's, with the exception of RES because not having RES was a thing units did in FE1/FE11/FE12 for some reason.

Eliwood: 80% HP 45% STR 50% SKL 40% SPD 45% LCK 30% DEF 35% RES

Seems like the branch doesn't fall far from the tree in Roy's case.

Marcus: 60% HP 25% STR 20% SKL 25% SPD 20% LCK 15% DEF 20% RES

Jeigan (FE1): 10% HP 10% STR 10% SKL 10% SPD 0% LCK 0% DEF 0% RES

Jeigan (FE3): 10% HP 10% STR 10% SKL 10% SPD 0% LCK 0% DEF 3% RES

Jeigan (FE11): 40% HP 20% STR 35% SKL 15% SPD 30% LCK 20% DEF 0% RES

As for our prepromote paladin welllll...Marcus kind of just beats Jeigan at everything, even in his old age. At least they improved poor Jeigan's growths in FE11.

Also the resemblance is uncanny.

Alan: 85% HP 45% STR 40% SKL 45% SPD 40% LCK 25% DEF 10% RES

Cain (FE1): 90% HP 30% STR 60% SKL 60% SPD 50% LCK 20% DEF 0% RES

Cain (FE3): 60% HP 30% STR 60% SKL 60% SPD 50% LCK 20% DEF 3% RES

Cain (FE11): 75% HP 35% STR 50% SKL 50% SPD 40% LCK 20% DEF 0% RES

Alan and Cain are also more similar than I thought! Like Marcus, Alan is also better than his FE1 counterpart in stats, and poor Cain only got worse as time went on.

Bors: 90% HP 30% STR 30% SKL 40% SPD 50% LCK 35% DEF 10% RES

Doga (FE1): 60% HP 20% STR 40% SKL 40% SPD 20% LCK 10% DEF 0% RES

Doga (FE3): 60% HP 20% STR 40% SKL 40% SPD 20% LCK 10% DEF 3% RES

Doga (FE11): 60% HP 20% STR 40% SKL 40% SPD 30% LCK 30% DEF 0% RES

Bors is beating Doga in stats, but Doga is not unkillable because he is Armour Knight, but because he is Doga.

Wolt: 80% HP 40% STR 50% SKL 40% SPD 40% LCK 20% DEF 10% RES

Gordon (FE1): 40% HP 30% STR 30% SKL 30% SPD 40% LCK 10% DEF 0% RES

Gordon (FE3): 40% HP 30% STR 30% SKL 30% SPD 40% LCK 10% DEF 3% RES

Gordon (FE11): 60% HP 20% STR 40% SKL 35% SPD 40% LCK 30% DEF 0% RES

Gordon and Wolt both have similar but not really too samey stats, with Gordon having better bases.

Lance: 80% HP 40% STR 45% SKL 50% SPD 35% LCK 20% DEF 15% RES

Abel (FE1): 70% HP 40% STR 50% SKL 50% SPD 40% LCK 20% DEF 0% RES

Abel (FE3): 70% HP 40% STR 50% SKL 50% SPD 40% LCK 20% DEF 3% RES

Abel (FE11): 65% HP 40% STR 50% SKL 50% SPD 25% LCK 20% DEF 0% RES

Abel and Lance are also uncannily similar, with Abel slightly beating Lance in bases and Lance having an existant RES growth.

OK, enough with boring stats, time to compare the stories again!

Tribute!

(also they offer the same amount of money, and replaced old guy with a young girl; this is a recurring theme)

In FE1, you get your early game healer WRYs here who is quite similar to someone from Ch. 2 in FE6. However, FE3 is pretty abridged, and they took poor WRYs out of the game altogether and replaced him with Marth's #2 fangirl.

So after the bandits are beaten, taken care of, and for all intents and purposes dead (being literally dead and all that);

Both of our main characters get an army.

Not Sheeda is still not allowed to join Roy's Merry Group. :(

And what would a legitimate army be without some mercenaries to back them up?

ONLY MAIN CHARACTER HAS THE POWER TO WIELD THE SWORD OF LIGHT AND SAVE THE WORLD

Stay tuned for Chapter 2, with more incredibly boring stats I kind of don't care to transcribe but I must.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Refa

[Jedi]

Wow I never thought about just how similar these 2 games started out... I'll stay tuned Refa.. this is going to be quite the thread!

[Parrhesia]

I saw the resemblances before this thread, but it only went as far as 'thar be evil empire and eventually dragons' and the starting parties/lords. This is just plain uncanny.

[Agro]

This is pretty much why I hate FE6. Even the plot is like what would happen if FE3's books were merged. A mad king who suddenly wages war and is disillusioned with humanity, revives Dark Dragon, etc, blah blah, bandits, Ogma + two fighters, useless mid-game cavaliers, the list goes on. I'd go so far as to say that FE6 is a reimagining of FE3... but maybe that's a little too much.

[ZemZem]

Whoa...I never played FE1, but these resemblances between it and FE6 are just...whoa. Can't wait until the next update!

[cyron]

i knew the joins and story where similiar but whoa the stats

[bottlegnomes]

As people have said, the similarities are absurd. Should be an interesting read. Hopefully you'll update more often than some people. *glares at Paper*

[Bryan]

I'm just going to post this and be on my way. I haven't ever finished this, but it's good enough.

It's based on archtypes, looks, and personality. (Est=Thany, as they're both the youngest. They also are both sort of tomboyish in their apperance.)

Edited July 2, 2012 by Bryan

[Celice]

This is pretty much why I hate FE6. Even the plot is like what would happen if FE3's books were merged. A mad king who suddenly wages war and is disillusioned with humanity, revives Dark Dragon, etc, blah blah, bandits, Ogma + two fighters, useless mid-game cavaliers, the list goes on. I'd go so far as to say that FE6 is a reimagining of FE3... but maybe that's a little too much.

I don't say it's too much. I say that's the intention. It's also pretty much why I really really like FE6. It also was a directive standpoint to take when rebooting the series on handhelds, with the sole-purpose of making cash. It was, in multiple ways, a reestablishing of the series.

Also, one need only look at the two games' commercials to see how blatant the imagining is.

[tenkiforecast]

I never really noticed how similar to two games are. Part of it is that I've only beaten FE11 and just don't really care about FE1-3, and all the plot holes in FE1 and FE3 just annoy me. Aside from that, damn. I understand why they wanted to reboot the franchise and they did a LOT of advertising (hello Super Smash Brothers Melee, thank you for including a character for a game that isn't even released upon launch of SSBM!) to ensure their success. They succeeded brilliantly, inclusion of Roy and Marth in SSBM gave the series an international audience, even if Roy sucks in Melee. Marth is close to top tier though...eh, different situation.

If anything, FE6 doesn't have plot holes. Yeah, the protagonists are kind of boring but they have hints of personalities. FE1 and FE3 can't say that except for book 2 Harkin who is 'lolDarkorb I AM FIRE LORD OZAI BURN EVERYTHING'. ... Actually, he and Zephiel are pretty similar in that sense, both want their lands to burn and humanity to end. Harkin's is the more stupid motivation, being controlled by macguffin artifact of evil. Zephiel's is more character development and an actual writing staff giving him a backstory that explains his motivations in a not stupid way.

[Raven]

Honestly the thought never even crossed my mind, even though I've played though most of FE11 and completed FE6 several times.

Let's see what else can be compared.

[Sunwoo]

Hahaha. Looks like I'll have to keep my eye on another thing on this site.

[BrightBow]

But Marth's ancestor Anri wasn't a bad guys like the "heroes" of Elibe, wasn't he? Or was there something in FE3 I'm missing?

I so hate how nobody in Elibe has any problems with what those guys did. I would like to think Akaneia wasn't such a horrible setting like Elibe.

[Baldrick]

This thread will be interesting, I reckon.

I'm just going to post this and be on my way. I haven't ever finished this, but it's good enough.

You could add Douglas/Lawrence, Miledy/Minerva, and Fa/Tiki to that list.

But Marth's ancestor Anri wasn't a bad guys like the "heroes" of Elibe, wasn't he? Or was there something in FE3 I'm missing?

I so hate how nobody in Elibe has any problems with what those guys did. I would like to think Akaneia wasn't such a horrible setting like Elibe.

Do you have a source for that? (I'm more motivated by curiousity than trying to challenge your claim). I know humans apparently started the war, but that doesn't mean the Eight Heroes were responsible for that, or were bad people in general.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Baldrick

[Paper Jam]

Hartmut certainly wasn't a bad guy; he could have killed Idoun but didn't.

And Athos made peace with the dragons of Arcadia.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Paper Jam

[BrightBow]

Do you have a source for that? (I'm more motivated by curiousity than trying to challenge your claim). I know humans apparently started the war, but that doesn't mean the Eight Heroes were responsible for that, or were bad people in general.

Well, it's not "apparently". It is stated in both openings that it were the humans who attacked.

For convenience, the FE7 Intro narration:

Once, dragons and men coexisted.

They shared a peace forged in wisdom,

a peace that lasted many generations.

All that was lost when mankind disrupted

this balance in a sudden onslaught.

Man fought dragon in a savage war

that shook the foundations of their world.

This war was called The Scouring.

Defeated and humbled,

dragons vanished from the realm.

In time, man rebuilt and spread his

dominion across the land and

on to the islands beyond.

A millenium has passed

since those dark days ended.

For some reason, in both games, it's only mentioned in their respective openings. But the games never claim the opposite so there is not actually any reason to doubt that. Afterwards, the games only says that mankind vanquished the dragons.

And whatever the divine generals reasons were for their actions: The implication is that they lead the humans in a war that wiped out all the dragons who couldn't hide themselves from the face of the world. They committed genocide. Plain and simple.

It's not like that I can't imagine reasons why somebody would participate in such a war, even when they think it is wrong...

...but if a story has someone commit such a horrifying act and they are not supposed to be villains, wouldn't you expect some sort of explanation or reasoning to explain their actions?

Yet, even though the heroes are portrayed sympathetically, the game never provides any explanation whatsoever. Their heroic image is maintained during both games and never scratched. The worship they receive is never questioned.

Even in FE7, Athos never speaks about his past actions in the war or shows any regrets.

The closest thing I could find to draw information about his motivation is in "Sands of Time", he says this:

Athos:

One day, as I charted the mysteries of Nabata, I came across the most amazing village… It was unbelievable, but in that place, humans and dragons lived together in cooperation.

Hector:

Dragons and humans? Are you telling me they could live together in peace?

Athos:

At first, I doubted what my own eyes showed me. But yes, the village truly did exist.

I love how Hector cannot believe in a peaceful coexistence between humans and dragons, even though they are friends with Ninian and Nils so I took the freedom to include it. FE7s quality writing at work.

However, the important part is of course Athos.

He says, he couldn't believe that humans and dragons can peaceful coexist.

Think about the implications: This was after the war. So if Athos thought that coexistence between the races was impossible and he fought in the war with that attitude then the conclusion I draw is that he killed dragons... simply because they were dragons. Because he thought that there was no place on the continent for both humans and dragons. And that would be very villainous in my eyes.

Edit:

Hartmut certainly wasn't a bad guy; he could have killed Idoun but didn't.

So they are the good guys because they spared one single life. That makes up for the whole genocide thing?

The game pushes in that direction but it's ridiculous. You can't slaughter thousands and be redeemed just because you don't kill someone for a change of pace.

And even if they would had a change of heart about the whole war they wouldn't have humiliated their victims further by allowing that the war they fought got immortalized as the "Scouring".

Speaking of Idoun, she probably works as Tiki's counterpart. She was put to sleep to prevent her from loosing her mind and unleashing hell on humanity while Idoun was put to sleep "out of pity".

And Athos made peace with the dragons of Arcadia.

Ninian and Nils get along with him as well even though they were already alive during the war and lost their mother during it. Considering that wanted to go through the gate their mother was clearly not a combatant.

And Nergals also became friends with him. But since he already forgot about what he lost in the war he became friends with him.

Athos is surrounded by people who could understandably demand his head on a plate, so it's kinda funny that he never even has to answer any unpleasant questions.

The people in Arcadia simply just fit in with that pattern: The writers simply didn't want the "heroes" questioned. That doesn't redeem Athos.

Edited July 3, 2012 by BrightBow

[Titamon]

Yeah sure, the 8 Divine Generals are "evil" because they were defending their race

[BrightBow]

Yeah sure, the 8 Divine Generals are "evil" because they were defending their race

The humans were the ones attacking. They started the war that ended "a peace forged in wisdom that lasted many generations."

It's not like I know what there reasons were either, but don't you at least see any problems with the fact that the game never gave any insight on their motivations?

They committed genocide and we are just to assume that they probably just fought because the stakes grew so high that the alternative was that the dragons would wipe them out? Without this being addressed anywhere in the games? Even when we meet 2 of them in person in the sequel? And at least three other people who were alive at the time?

Edited July 3, 2012 by BrightBow

[Just call me AL]

Last I checked, the dragons participating were using a magic that the dragons that remained neutral considered a crime against nature.

[BrightBow]

Last I checked, the dragons participating were using a magic that the dragons that remained neutral considered a crime against nature.

Because they were desperate since they were being killed and all.

As Jahn put it: "We desperately needed the power of the Divine Dragon. Our entire species was at stake."

And btw, while the humans were the ones at the loosing side, they created weapons that turned the laws of nature upside down. Just for comparison.

Of course, you can argue a lot which desperate situations allow which actions but that doesn't retroactively justify starting a war.

Edit: And the Divine Dragons can hardly be considered neutral. There whole species was declared war upon after all. They simply run away, leaving the other dragons to their fate.

Edited July 3, 2012 by BrightBow

[Titamon]

Because they were desperate since they were being killed and all.

As Yahn put it: "We desperately needed the power of the Divine Dragon. Our entire species was at stake."

And btw, while the humans were at the loosing side, they created weapons that turned the laws of nature upside down. Just for comparison.

Of course, you can argue a lot which desperate situations allow which measurements but that doesn't retroactively justify starting a war.

But no one is justifying what the humans did, we're telling you why they did it.

The humans were intimidated by the awesome power of dragons and therefore lashed out against them. It's called self-preservation, basic animal instincts; You perceive a threat, you eliminate it.

[BrightBow]

But no one is justifying what the humans did, we're telling you why they did it.

The humans were intimidated by the awesome power of dragons and therefore lashed out against them. It's called self-preservation, basic animal instincts; You perceive a threat, you eliminate it.

Bringing up that the dragons used evil magic sounds like justification to me.

And the humans motives aren't elaborated anywhere. It just says that they attacked. I'm pretty sure about that since I'm also pretty sure that it was never mentioned outside of the openings at all. I made a topic a few months ago about finding out if it was mentioned anywhere else, since that bothered me since I played through FE7 for the first time.

But more importantly, this has gone really of the rails and I apologize for this.

I just wanted to find out about how Anri and the humans dealt with the dragons back then in comparison to Elibe since I only played SD. I wondered if I could find out where the writers went of track when copying the plot of Monshu.

But I couldn't keep what bothers my about the Elibe setting in check so I can't really claim that my post did not provoke this.

Still, I hope you can understand my confusion on Elibe:

Whatever there reasons are, the Divine Generals committed a horrible crime.

With a setup like this, one would except that humans have to face their crimes of the past, like it happened in Path of Radiance.

Humans had to show awareness, regret and most importantly humility in regards to their past crimes in order to earn forgiveness.

But in Elibe the humans are allowed to stay ignorant during both of these games, while singing their praises about their bloodthirsty ancestors. To the point where it's not mentioned anywhere outside of the opening who the aggressors were.

Just what writing style is this? Imagine the Serenes massacre only being mentioned in PoR's opening. I just don't get what the writers were trying to do.

In fact, the game actually tries to paint the Fire Dragons as the bad guys just because the way they treated Idoun in an desperate act to survive. And then the whole empathizing of "Hartmund had pity on her."

Humans = Good, Dragons = Bad. That seems like the impression the writers were going for in the last chapter, completely ignoring what was written in the opening. It's like they either mixed up two different stories or it's just really disturbing.

I should probably make a separate topic about this to elaborate. And apart from the whole off-topicness I can barely keep my eyes up at this point, anyway.

Again, sorry for the whole mess.

Edited July 3, 2012 by BrightBow

[Parrhesia]

Humans had to show awareness, regret and most importantly humility in regards to their past crimes in order to earn forgiveness.

Not Shinon~!

But in all seriousness, it was an interesting point I hadn't actually considered before. ... And yes, probably best off being elaborated in a different topic :p

[I don't play for turns]

I knew a lot of FE games were kind of similar, but this.... This is ridiculous.

Edited July 3, 2012 by I don't play for turns

[BBHood217]

You can't slaughter thousands and be redeemed just because you don't kill someone for a change of pace.

Don't you play JRPGs? You slaughter thousands of evil minions (possibly human ones), and then you spare the big bad villain because "if you kill him, you'll be just like him". Happy end.