Skill Inheritance Discussion.

[BANRYU]

Just now, MrSmokestack said:

Do you know the person who said that was?

Me.

I'd try to excuse the blatant contradiction between my reasoning then and my reasoning now, since that other Kagero in question had a less than ideal roll, but thanks for reminding me.

I thought it might have been you xDD ;; I reasoned myself that 'wait... if he's disagreeing now then it must have been someone else' lmao ;;;

[Kaden]

35 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

Beruka seems like a good Emerald candidate, both having solid bulk to make use of Brash Assault and benefitting from the attack boost of the axe, though she may simply do better with a Killer Bonfire + QuickRip build... Fred, Cherche, and Bartre are all other decent candidates who have solid defense and attack alongside weaker speed (and Res, though, so dealing with appropriate colors of Manaketes might be trouble), and Bartre comes with Hinata's passive kit as well, only missing the axe...

I was thinking of an Emerald Axe build for Beruka, but I didn't want to say or ask anything about it since a Beruka build was proposed here already. The only summonable unit with it, Arthur, can basically make Beruka a green Subaki or rather, a "Pseudobaki"... I'll just pack my bags and leave...

If you use Arthur to give an Emerald Axe and Swap and have another Arthur to give her Lancebreaker 2 -- Lancebreaker 1 can work if you just want to get 3 skills from one Arthur -- or Subaki to give her Quick Riposte 2, then she's basically a slower, bulkier and more hard-hitting Subaki. Her neutral attack is the same as Narcian's who has the third highest attack of the gem weapon wielders under Azura, Palla, and Stahl's 31 and we've seen what Narcian can do to lance users on Lunatic Michalis's map.

I feel like Hinata's skill set is how the developers are showing us what a Brash Assault build would be like. Similarly, Subaki is probably their way of demonstrating a build with Quick Riposte. In both cases, it involves a bulky unit, but for Brash Assault specifically, I feel like Fury is what's allowing Brash Assault to work so well. Hinata is very physically bulky and with Fury increasing his physical bulk while draining his HP per battle, he can slowly, but safely slip into Brash Assault's range which Pavise also helps to mitigate some of the damage he's taking.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Kaden

[BANRYU]

@Kaden Dude there can be multiple builds for any character lol. Some characters might have a definitively-best build, but who's to say they can't run other options for the same character that need them for a different reason? 

And yeah, Brash Assault seems like one of those abilities that's interesting in theory but hard to make work otherwise... x___x BUT my aim is to prove it can be usable xD If I (or anyone really) can find even one situation where Brash Assault isn't 100% outclassed by another skill, I'll consider that a victory. Gem weapons are same to a lesser extent, where I feel like their potential gets overlooked, even though we know they can do some really good work-- Triangle Adept is a popular and useful skill, and running a gem weapon on anyone who doesn't already have a Prf basically gives them free TA3 while freeing up their A-Passive, which is pretty cool IMO. 

 

[MediocreLee]

@ILikeKirbys Whoa, thanks for the suggestions.  I don't run a flier team so I'll go with your suggestions for the non-flier and I'm gonna commit to the Killing Edge for Palla, since triggering Moonbow a lot will be lots of fun.  I also forgot to mention what my Palla has a boon/bane, she's +Atk/-HP.  Darting Blow sounds like it'll be very useful as well, so I'll try that out.  I do have an extra Bunny Lucina for the Swift Sparrow so I can consider it.

@BANRYU I'm not a huge fan of the Gen 3 Pokemon weapons and I feel like it doesn't really fit Palla too well so I wanted to give her a different weapon.

[BANRYU]

7 minutes ago, SHSL Ninja said:

@ILikeKirbys Whoa, thanks for the suggestions.  I don't run a flier team so I'll go with your suggestions for the non-flier and I'm gonna commit to the Killing Edge for Palla, since triggering Moonbow a lot will be lots of fun.  I also forgot to mention what my Palla has a boon/bane, she's +Atk/-HP.  Darting Blow sounds like it'll be very useful as well, so I'll try that out.  I do have an extra Bunny Lucina for the Swift Sparrow so I can consider it.

@BANRYU I'm not a huge fan of the Gen 3 Pokemon weapons and I feel like it doesn't really fit Palla too well so I wanted to give her a different weapon.

I'm thinking Wo Dao + Moonbow might actually be good for her as well, in that case. Balanced stats are difficult to find specific skill sets to go with, and there are probably others who will use that better by virtue of being faster, but it's something. Killer might be worth doing. I can only speculate right now as I'm currently working on Raigh but I'll crunch some numbers for Palla eventually. 

[PowerVZ]

3 hours ago, ILikeKirbys said:

@PowerVZ Okay, so +ATK/-HP Kagero with Life and Death 3 at max level should have...

28 HP | 43 ATK (48 with Poison Dagger+, 53 vs Infantry) | 37 SPD | 17 DEF | 23 RES

...Looks like you have one hell of a mage-killer here, between the 48-53 ATK and her still-passable RES. And with Vantage, she can take on tanky mages and one-shot them on their turn, which is extra nice! For her, I would say that the best C Skill is probably a Hone or Fortify skill, since you said she's on the back line a lot and thus could buff up your other units until it's her turn to attack.

Although, what is the rest of your team that you're planning to run Kagero with? Because your Kagero's basically complete even without a C Skill, so what you should use for that slot really comes down to who you're running alongside Kagero, in my opinion.

 

@ILikeKirbys Yup, the stats are correct. (Except the vs. Infantry number)

Right now i'm running Kagero with Nowi and Draug as tanky frontliners, which also have a good damage output and Olivia who is meant to Hone Atk the others and allow Draug/Nowi to protect their allies or Kagero to assassinate someone else.

I plan to replace Olivia with Ninian or Azura and get a strong red mage (LILINA <3) by switching Nowi out. I'll obviously make sure to have some ATK buffs in my team to boost Kagero.

I like Vantage. Baiting an enemy mage in Kagero's range, killing it and then be invincible to ranged attacks by making sure she's not getting in range of any front attack. I don't have Ardent Sacrifice yet but I plan on giving her that skill over the one she has right now (Draw Back). Not that convinced about Reciprocal Aid as a Vantage proc engine, as my Kagero only has 28 hp and I rarely see my other units going below that amount of hp.

3 hours ago, MrSmokestack said:

Wouldn't it be 72 Atk vs infantry?

@PowerVZ Kagero is too frail to make good use of Vantage, especially since her low HP cap leaves her vulnerable to getting OHKO'd before you even factor in LaD 3. Kagero doesn't benefit much from her B passive, so keeping the default Shurikenbreaker is fine. C Passive is flexible though Threaten Defense 3 and Hone Atk / Spd are my recommendations, depending on the rest of your team.

However, since your Kagero is +Atk, I'm putting in a vote for Death Blow over LaD 3, since Kagero should be KO'ing infantry in one hit. Otherwise, she becomes a liability against ranged units. If you want to maximize your mileage with Poison Dagger+, consider running Hone Atk on one of her teammates. With it, she'll hit 79 Atk vs infantry, which is enough to OHKO any neutral infantry up to Tiki (Adult)'s bulk in one hit, so about 35 Def.

 

Hope this helped.

@MrSmokestack Hi, thanks for your help.

As I said earlier, I like using Vantage as her B skill, as I always make sure to protect Kagero from frontliners with my tanks, and Ardent Sacrifice will allow me to do so more effectively once i'll get it. Moreover, that HP bane means I only need her to lose 7 HP and i'm good to go. I also got Poison Strike 3 that's ready to switch in if I'm not satisfied, your thoughts about that one ? 

Death Blow 3 over Life and Death 3 seems like a good idea, but I don't have any way to get the skilll right now (No 5* Hawkeye/haven't upgraded Ursula yet), so i'll stick with L&D for now (RIP 5* Jaffar).

About her C skill I like the idea of running a Hone skill but i'm still wondering which one between Hone Spd 3 and Hone Atk 3 I need for my team (Nowi, Draug, Olivia, Kagero)

Also forgot to mention she got that Draconic Aura which allows her to break even armored units, which is awesome !

I'll definitely post screenshots of my screen once i'll be able to play the game. (Server down right now)

Anyway thanks a lot for your help !

Edited April 12, 2017 by PowerVZ
adding some details to my reply

[BANRYU]

@PowerVZ In that case yeah you probably want to wait for ArdSac for your Kagero. RecipAid is more for teams with units that wind up taking some hits (which is what I have), teams that aren't hurt much would rather have AS so that'll be what you want. 

[ILikeKirbys]

1 hour ago, Kaden said:

I was thinking of an Emerald Axe build for Beruka, but I didn't want to say or ask anything about it since a Beruka build was proposed here already. The only summonable unit with it, Arthur, can basically make Beruka a green Subaki or rather, a "Pseudobaki"... I'll just pack my bags and leave...

A Pseubaki, then?

1 hour ago, Kaden said:

If you use Arthur to give an Emerald Axe and Swap and have another Arthur to give her Lancebreaker 2 -- Lancebreaker 1 can work if you just want to get 3 skills from one Arthur -- or Subaki to give her Quick Riposte 2, then she's basically a slower, bulkier and more hard-hitting Subaki. Her neutral attack is the same as Narcian's who has the third highest attack of the gem weapon wielders under Azura, Palla, and Stahl's 31 and we've seen what Narcian can do to lance users on Lunatic Michalis's map.

That could work pretty well, actually. Neutral-stats 5-Star Beruka would have 41 ATK with the Emerald Axe+, and Lancebreaker 2 should last a while with her high HP and DEF (though Lancebreaker 3 would be preferred, but I don't think you should burn 20,000 feathers on Arthur just to use him as skill fodder), so you could get some mileage out of this. And then you could give her Sol to help her stay in Lancebreaker range (I think Sol could help here, since Beruka shouldn't be taking too much damage from Blues, which would be her primary targets, so the 1/2-damage-dealt heal could be enough to hover just inside of Lancebreaker range).
I would be partial to giving her Brash Assault though, since she already has Defiant DEF and thus could probably make good use of a skill that lets her double at low HP too. Plus, with this setup you could run Bonfire and deal 20/22/23 extra damage per activation while in Brash Assault range (since she has 41/44/47 DEF after Defiant DEF activates), which would help Beruka deal more damage against Greens (I think she can handle most Blues without Bonfire, but the tankier ones might need a proc to die, so it doesn't hurt there either).

@BANRYU I thought you meant the entire cast, but I just stuck to the default Gem weapon users for simplicity's sake. Still, I can think of two other units who would benefit from Gem weapon + Brash Assault (both of whom already have Brash Assault, which is pretty convenient):

Bartre: He's basically Hinata with less RES, of course he can pull this off. Still, there's not much adjustment for Bartre to get the Emerald Axe, outside of staying farther away from Draug than usual since he doesn't have the Hammer to deal effective damage with any more.

Seliph: Yes, yes, he has Tyrfing, but does he really need Tyrfing? I don't think so, so let's toss Defiant DEF 1.5-on-a-sword and give Seliph Triangle-Adept-3-on-a-sword instead. Outside of losing 4 ATK, Seliph doesn't change too much here. He has the general stat spread for Brash Assault already (High HP & DEF / Alright ATK / Not enough SPD to double normally), so why not give him TA3 in a weapon, then give him Fury, Threaten DEF and Bonfire so he can deal even more damage.

Also, I think there might be someone who could possibly make better use of Brash Assault without a Gem weapon:

Donnel: Donnel has a good amount of DEF (29/32/35) and HP (40/43/46), passable RES (20/23/27), and decent ATK with a Brave Lance+ (40/43/46), but his SPD leaves something to be desired (21/24/27 with the Brave+), so he could use Brash Assault to quad-attack once he hits 20/21/23 HP. We can also give him Defiant ATK to buff his ATK when he hits Brash Assault range, giving him 47/50/53 ATK that hits 4 times, and he's basically guaranteed to proc a skill in there unless you're using Astra or Aether or Galeforce or something else with a 5-charge, so I'm pretty sure he can either deal sizable damage to or ORKO most enemies (except, like, Hectors or something) with this set. I would also recommend Threaten DEF, to weaken enemies who put Donnel into Brash Assault & Defiant ATK range, and Ignis, so he can deal 23 (23.2)/25 (25.6)/28 extra damage at the end of every quad-hit. Ignis is chosen over Bonfire here because Donnel is guaranteed to quad-hit whoever he's attacking with a counter in between, thus guaranteeing that Ignis will proc on the last hit: You could  also run Luna/Bonfire/Dragon Fang/Sol if you wished, all of them could work too (though Sol works more to keep Donnel alive rather than finishing foes, so I'm not sure it would help here), though I doubt any of them are as powerful (except maybe Dragon Fang, if you have a +ATK or NeutralATK/-DEF Donnel).
I think Brash Assault on Donnel could work, even if it might not be the best B Skill for the village hero.

And now I'm wondering if my +DEF/-HP Hinoka could pull off that Brave Lance + Brash Assault set. On the one hand, she would have at most 18 HP when she has Brash Assault active (37 HP thanks to being -HP), but she could also run Defiant DEF to stay alive longer (really only considering this since Hinoka has Defiant DEF by default) and have 28-damage (28.8, not sure if that rounds up) Ignises (how do you pluralize Ignis? Never thought I would need to ask, but...) at the end of every quad-hit, though she couldn't have Threaten DEF, since she needs Hone Fliers since she's on my flier team (with Palla, who will also be running Ruby Sword + Brash Assault as soon as I pull more Bartres, and Bunny Camilla, who won't be running Brash Assault because she's a mage and can't run a Gem weapon) and the buff is more important.

Now I'm starting to wonder if Brave weapon + Brash Assault could be a good idea...

12 minutes ago, PowerVZ said:

@ILikeKirbys Yup, the stats are correct.

Right now i'm running Kagero with Nowi and Draug as tanky frontliners, which also have a good damage output and Olivia who is meant to Hone Atk the others and allow Draug/Nowi to protect their allies or Kagero to assassinate someone else.

I plan to replace Olivia with Ninian or Azura and get a strong red mage (LILINA <3) by switching Nowi out. I'll obviously make sure to have some ATK buffs in my team to boost Kagero.

I like Vantage. Baiting an enemy mage in Kagero's range, killing it and then be invincible to ranged attacks by making sure she's not getting in range of any front attack. I don't have Ardent Sacrifice yet but i plan on giving her that skill over the skill she has right now (Draw Back). Not that convinced about Reciprocal Aid as a Vantage proc engine, as my Kagero only has 28 hp and I rarely see my other units going below that amount of hp.

Alright, so with Kagero/Nowi/Draug/Olivia... Since you already have Hone ATK via Olivia, I would say that the best C Skill for Kagero on this team would be Fortify DEF or Fortify RES, depending on whether you want to patch up your teammates' lower RES or further buff their higher DEF. This stays the same once you add Lilina to your team, but I could see Lilina wanting Fortify RES to take on enemy mages.

And yeah, as BANRYU said, stick Ardent Sacrifice on Kagero. Do you have a Florina or Donnel you can pluck it off of?

Sorry I took so long to respond, the forum ate my last attempt to respond.

[MrSmokestack]

49 minutes ago, PowerVZ said:

@MrSmokestack Hi, thanks for your help.

As I said earlier, I like using Vantage as her B skill, as I always make sure to protect Kagero from frontliners with my tanks, and Ardent Sacrifice will allow me to do so more effectively once i'll get it. Moreover, that HP bane means I only need her to lose 7 HP and i'm good to go. I also got Poison Strike 3 that's ready to switch in if I'm not satisfied, your thoughts about that one ? 

Death Blow 3 over Life and Death 3 seems like a good idea, but I don't have any way to get the skilll right now (No 5* Hawkeye/haven't upgraded Ursula yet), so i'll stick with L&D for now (RIP 5* Jaffar).

About her C skill I like the idea of running a Hone skill but i'm still wondering which one between Hone Spd 3 and Hone Atk 3 I need for my team (Nowi, Draug, Olivia, Kagero)

Also forgot to mention she got that Draconic Aura which allows her to break even armored units, which is awesome !

I'll definitely post screenshots of my screen once i'll be able to play the game. (Server down right now)

Anyway thanks a lot for your help !

Don't use Poison Strike, since dead units don't take damage from it. If you're truly keen on using Vantage and can make it work with your team, I won't stop you.

What skills do your Nowi and Draug have? From what I'm aware, both units prefer to doubleattack through Quick Riposte rather than through actual speed advantage, so I don't think Hone Spd would work for either of them. Olivia as the Dancer shouldn't be attacking or getting attacked, not to mention her speed tier is also mediocre.

Overall, I would say Hone Atk fits your team best for Kagero's C.

 

Sorry for the late response!

Edited April 12, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[Kaden]

@BANRYU, well, @ILikeKirbys and others posted builds about Beruka on page 50 after someone asked and I just thought some of the builds had interchangeable skills. For example, ILikeKirbys suggested she keep her Killer Axe and Defiant Defense and add in Bonfire and Quick Riposte to make use of her high defense, use Moonbow if you want a quicker proc'ing special, Reposition, and any C-skill can work, but Threaten Attack was suggested. Well, you could just swap her Killer Axe for an Emerald Axe and Reposition for Swap and there you go, a Pseubaki.

And yes, different builds for different reasons and people. I figure that if Subaki's skill set is that effective against dealing with sword units, especially in GHBs, then what if someone needed a green unit to deal with lance units like that, but don't have Narcian or they really, really need a unit with that much bulk to survive? There are similar units across the board, but before Skill Inheritance, they were locked to their own skills sets which while giving them a unique niche, might not be enough for them or perhaps a different build works better for them. For me, Beruka and Subaki are similar units where Beruka doesn't really need her speed if she's relying on her defense to use a -breaker skill or Quick Riposte which is a similar case with Subaki, but he can naturally double units if he wants.

We don't have a sword flyer with that kind of physical bulk yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if a Pseubaki build works very well for them. I bet even Caeda can pull it off in a weird way against mages. Slap Distant Counter on her with a Ruby Sword, Quick Riposte, etc., and there you go, a crazy (expensive) mage counter. I kind of want to see that in action now just to see how ridiculous it would be.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Kaden

[ILikeKirbys]

@Kaden Yeah, I posted a Beruka build, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't post yours! Honestly, I never would've thought of Pseubaki as an option for Beruka, that was pretty good, mate.

And now I want to see that Caeda too. It would be kinda hilarious, and way too expensive (I dunno that I'd burn a Hector for that), but I could see it being a very effective mage-killer after archers are removed from play. +RES/not -HP or +HP/not -RES could probably even tank and counter Blue mages decently without the Ruby Sword.

I kinda wish we had another sword flier, honestly... But for now, Palla and Caeda will have to do... And Palla does quite well for me.
Elincia when tho

[BANRYU]

Agree with Kirbys ~3o New ideas for characters already addressed are always welcome.

Caeda is definitely one of the units who I think wants the Wo Dao, being as her default weapon is pretty poop but she's definitely got the speed for consistent Moonbow activations. I don't doubt that she would hardwall the likes of Nino/Cecilia/Merric with a Ruby Sword, though I'd be curious to see how well she can do so without it (her Res IS pretty top-notch).

[Kaden]

@ILikeKirbys, really? I thought it was expected when people were first discussing what Michalis would like and many were like, "Bonfire and Quick Riposte to use his good defense", and then the Beruka discussion came up and I figured it was at least considered, but not posted. Maybe this is what people mean, especially teachers and professors, when you should ask a question even if you think everyone knows the answer because they might not and have the same question as you.

I guess in a similar vein, Camilla, Eirika, Est, Fir, Florina, Hawkeye, Jagen, Roy, and Shanna could definitely pull off a Distant Counter and Quick Riposte build to counter mages. Problem is that it would be really expensive, especially if you gave all of them Distant Counter, and kind of unnecessary for Camilla, Eirika, Est, Fir, Florina, Roy, and Shanna who can naturally double most units. Hawkeye would gladly want this, though, since he hits hard, but he's slow.

[LordFrigid]

Speaking of Distant Counter Caeda...I ran into flier team twice that had one of them (lv. 40 +10). It was weird...the full set was Killing Edge+, Distant Counter, G Tomebreaker (like she even needs that), Hone Fliers, Rally Speed (I haven't run the #s, but I think +10 probably has enough SP to not have to use that so...idk why that was on the set) and Glacies.

I just finished leveling Spring Princess Camilla, so I'm probably going to be pilot running team-mostly-flier-with-Azura-'cause-why-not very soon:

Hinoka [+HP/-Def]: Mostly standard 'cause SP limitations. I haven't really SP farmed on her yet D: ... probably going to go Wings+Draw Back (reasoning later).

Camilla [Neutral]: Gronnblade for all the nuking. Doesn't have an A yet, still debating lol (might go Death Blow for the sword lord OHKOs, but my 4* Klein supplies are limited so...). But otherwise has Wings, Goad Fliers, and Draw Back.

Caeda [+Atk/-Res]: Brave Sword, Swift Sparrow, Desperation, Fortify Fliers, Rally Speed (switching out for Ardent Sacrifice when I have the SP), and Iceberg. I think I may have something of a Caeda bias. Matchups are surprisingly good, once Desperation is up and she has the Spd buffs/auras to double she can lay a smackdown on even a number of blues O.o . The Wings stacking is to help Caeda get out after wrecking someone's face =P .

Azura [+Spd/-Res]: Wings. Everything else is standard.

Edit: Just gave it a whirl...Caeda is insane.

Edited April 12, 2017 by LordFrigid

[ILikeKirbys]

33 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

Agree with Kirbys ~3o New ideas for characters already addressed are always welcome.

Caeda is definitely one of the units who I think wants the Wo Dao, being as her default weapon is pretty poop but she's definitely got the speed for consistent Moonbow activations. I don't doubt that she would hardwall the likes of Nino/Cecilia/Merric with a Ruby Sword, though I'd be curious to see how well she can do so without it (her Res IS pretty top-notch).

...Who does want the Armorslayer/Heavy Spear/Hammer tho? They just don't seem to have any real niche to me: They have about as much Might as a Gem weapon, less Might than a Wo Dao, Carrot Lance/Axe or Silver weapon, and only 1 Might more than a Killer weapon (they do get a significant Might advantage over Brave weapons, but those turn every attack into a two-hit attack on Player Phase to make up for their weakness). They deal effective damage vs Armors, true, but armors have enough DEF to be able to withstand such damage anyway, don't they? Plus, they'd be competing with what I would argue is a more effective answer to armors, that being magic units, who target the armors' lower RES (are there any armors with higher RES than DEF?).

Out of the units who start with them, I think Hana really wants a Brave Sword or Killing Edge to get either auto-doubles or faster Escutcheon on Player Phase attacks, Caeda doesn't have the ATK to really dent most armors and would probably prefer the Wo Dao or Killing Edge to get more damage via skill procs, Selena probably does better with a Silver Sword to boost her ATK or a Wo Dao to get more damage via skill procs like Caeda, Ephraim... what are you doing giving Ephraim something other than Seigmund? Est... to be honest I'm not sure what Est wants to do, her stats are really balanced tho, so I guess she could do mage-killing decently and would like a Silver Lance or Brave Lance to facilitate this, Florina is in the same boat as Est from what I can see (I'm probably wrong, but I'm getting a bit sleepy now so...), Oboro probably wants the Sapphire Lance + Brash Assault combo that you mentioned earlier in the thread, Bartre wants the Emerald Axe to become Axe Hinata or a Brave Axe so he can quad people at low HP, Cherche wants a Brave Axe so she can auto-double people with 46 ATK, and Frederick would probably be better off with the Emerald Axe + Brash Assault combo as well, or a Brave Axe since he already has crap SPD so tanking it a bit further wouldn't be so bad.

I just can't see anyone wanting an effective-vs-armors weapon, ever. Am I missing something?

@Kaden Don't worry about it, just fire away here! It's all theoretical fun in here anyway!

And hey, Hawkeye with Distant Counter could work pretty well for tanking anything, since he has solid defenses and HP and thus could work as a tank. You could even put Quick Riposte on him to make him double when he counters too, and Reciprocal Aid so he can steal HP from allies and continue nuking people as he tanks them! You'd probably want either +HP/+DEF/+RES and -SPD for this, since Hawkeye's speed is kinda crap and you want all the defensive power (or HP, to make Quick Riposte last longer) you can get on this build.

@LordFrigid ...Damn, did you win either of those matches?
And good luck with your team!

Also, a quick question: I have +SPD/-HP Bunny Camilla. Should I give her Gronnraven or Gronnblade? I only have Hone Fliers and Fortify DEF 3 to buff Gronnblade (would be a +22 buff, but only if she's able to stay glued to Hinoka and Cherche), which would still be pretty powerful, but Bunny Camilla could be a decent archer counter if I gave her Gronnraven and Triangle Adept 2 (I don't have a Roy to burn for TA3) instead, so I'm kinda torn here. I'm gonna be running Hinoka (+DEF/-HP, not sure what I'll be giving her yet, outside of Hone Fliers... maybe Brash Assault? BANRYU's making me want to try Brash Assault with Brave (because Donnel) and Gem (because that's what he initially brought BA up with) weapons, so maybe Hinoka can make it work?)/Palla (+ATK/-RES, gonna be running Brash Assault and Goad Fliers, not sure how that'll work out but I'm looking forward to finding out)/Cherche (I think +DEF/-SPD, I'm not sure what I'll do with her, maybe give her a Brave Axe and Brash Assault since her SPD is already crap) with Bunny Camilla, and I'm not sure what those three need more from their flying mage: A magical answer to knights or a way to more easily deal with archers. Any advice? I won't be able to respond until some time tomorrow, because I need to get some sleep and then I have school and work tomorrow, but any help would be appreciated.

Edited April 12, 2017 by ILikeKirbys

[eclipse]

27 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Also, a quick question: I have +SPD/-HP Bunny Camilla. Should I give her Gronnraven or Gronnblade? I only have Hone Fliers and Fortify DEF 3 to buff Gronnblade (would be a +22 buff, but only if she's able to stay glued to Hinoka and Cherche), which would still be pretty powerful, but Bunny Camilla could be a decent archer counter if I gave her Gronnraven and Triangle Adept 2 (I don't have a Roy to burn for TA3) instead, so I'm kinda torn here. I'm gonna be running Hinoka (+DEF/-HP, not sure what I'll be giving her yet, outside of Hone Fliers... maybe Brash Assault? BANRYU's making me want to try Brash Assault with Brave (because Donnel) and Gem (because that's what he initially brought BA up with) weapons, so maybe Hinoka can make it work?)/Palla (+ATK/-RES, gonna be running Brash Assault and Goad Fliers, not sure how that'll work out but I'm looking forward to finding out)/Cherche (I think +DEF/-SPD, I'm not sure what I'll do with her, maybe give her a Brave Axe and Brash Assault since her SPD is already crap) with Bunny Camilla, and I'm not sure what those three need more from their flying mage: A magical answer to knights or a way to more easily deal with archers. Any advice? I won't be able to respond until some time tomorrow, because I need to get some sleep and then I have school and work tomorrow, but any help would be appreciated.

Even with +Spd, Bunny Camilla isn't exactly going to double the map.  While -blade is promising, you'd need Fortify Fliers on someone to make it truly shine (paste it onto Cherche, should you ever get Caeda).  I really like the -raven version, because she can safely bait arrows.  Your +Spd means that neutral Takumi fails to double, to boot.

Mine is +Def and has -raven+ and TA3, and it's well worth it.  What I suggest is keeping her default weapon on for now, while getting the pieces for your final build together.  It may not be immediately, but even with a Green Egg, Camilla can pull her weight.

[Kaden]

@BANRYU, your desire to prove Brash Assault is usable makes me wonder what Knock Back can do. Before people knew the limitations of it, everyone was like, what if Leo or healers with Gravity had Knock Back. And then it got crushed since it would be pretty stupid. Outside of specific positioning, I'm not sure what you would want to do with it. Drag Back lets you get away from harm if you can ORKO them which in Knock Back's case, makes it pointless. Lunge can allow for a tank to move forward for more tanking which is fine if very dangerous if used poorly. If only Knock Back could instantly KO or severely damage units if they got sent flying into a pit like in the 2D Zelda games or sent flying into a wall or mountain which would probably make it a broken skill.

@ILikeKirbys, outside of for lore purposes, dedicated knight killers which is probably more for PvE than PvP since you cannot guarantee a knight will show up in arena even if they're part of the focus, but you will always know, for example, that a knight will be on this map or that map. For one, despite Selena's low base attack, as a 5* she can actually ORKO Hector with the combined might of Armorslayer+ and Triangle Adept 3. In return, I think she takes like 4 damage. This assumes both have neutral attack and defense. A 4* will leave a neutral defense and HP Hector with 2 HP and that's with Armorslayer and TA2. In my opinion, Selena's the best example of an anti-armor unit. The worst would probably be Caeda and Florina. Est and Hana at least have high attack -- same as Cordelia and Hinoka's --, but they're still frail, especially if you're running the default Life & Death Hana, and Cherche, Frederick, and Oboro are slow enough against some of the non-generic knights that they cannot double them, especially Effie who has Wary Fighter, or in Oboro's case, she's dealing with Draug who has 32 base speed as a 5*, so she's getting doubled instead. Bartre is probably the second best in that he can double if he's either faster or is down in Brash Assault's range. Third would be Ephraim since... why? Why use a Heavy Lance when you can use his Siegmund as you said.

The problem is the niche of it. There are not a lot of knights in the game and if they're being used, it's likely Hector or Effie. If Hector, then while Selena is a perfect counter, you have to deal with the fact that she took up a red spot that can be used by someone else. If Effie, then use someone else who can safely exploit her lower resistance and a dancer to finish the job or have the mage weaken her and then go in with Cherche and Frederick who could probably kill her with a Brave Axe instead.

That being said, I am considering making Donnel a dedicated knight killer. He's fast enough with neutral speed he can probably double generic knights for GHBs whereas Oboro can't. That and I need to get rid of units. He's probably better with his Brave Lance which I'm just going to keep so he would have 2 weapons to choose from. Oboro would much rather have anything that isn't a Heavy Lance. Brave Lance since she hits hard and is slow to begin with, so she won't care if she's getting doubled by more people, Killer Lance to lower Bonfire's cooldown to make use of her high defense, and a Sapphire Lance or a Silver Lance for a raw attack boost. I'm leaning towards Killer Lance and maybe Silver Lance since giving her a Brave Lance would be cool -- I have a +Atk Oboro --, but she would basically be a slower, but bulkier Donnel whose default kit does everything a Brave weapon user would want. If she were a green or red, then sure, she'd fulfill the same niche, but as a different type of unit. Here, she's another blue infantry with a Brave Lance and similar stats.

Speaking of Selena, I was thinking of giving her a Killing Edge and Bonfire instead instead. A Silver Sword would give her more attack combined with Triangle Adept, but perhaps a Ruby Sword would be more flexible since you could use her A-slot for something else like Attack +3, Death Blow, Defiant Attack, etc. Or if you keep TA, then Killing Edge could let her have a lower cooldown on Bonfire or even Ignis to make use of her defense.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Kaden

[LordFrigid]

1 hour ago, ILikeKirbys said:

I just can't see anyone wanting an effective-vs-armors weapon, ever. Am I missing something?

I don't think you are. imo, armors are easy enough to deal with without effective weaponry.

1 hour ago, ILikeKirbys said:

@LordFrigid ...Damn, did you win either of those matches?
And good luck with your team!

The first time I did and it was pretty clean...got the map that's basically a dark room full of breakable blocks. The second one sucked though. Got the map that used to be the split-up map and may or may not have cornered myself =P . Still won it, but it wasn't pretty. I considered surrendering after losing a unit to start a new streak, but at that point it was a matter of pride.

Thanks! 1st three battles were promising. Caeda obliterated literally everyone. I'm quite satisfied with that build, and can't wait to get enough SP to finish her Desperation.

1 hour ago, ILikeKirbys said:

[questions]

+22 buff stack is still pretty good, and will have more punch than max-buff +Atk Nino (by like...1 point, without factoring in whatever A passive you handed her). It depends on your plan for dealing with archers. Fliers ignore terrain, and because of that rushing them down is pretty viable and safe. Give your Hone Fliers bot Draw Back and you're guaranteed to be able to use it after nuking whatever you want (unless you didn't have the Hone bot start the turn next to Camilla O.o). Also, the AI will cause the Archers to make a beeline for fliers, so you could probably get them to split from the team pretty easily. On the other hand, if you just have a preference for baiting archers, you'll definitely want -raven. I personally found that they were easy enough to approach that I didn't have to worry about not having -raven on my runs, but then again this map set is very flier friendly so...idk.

On Hinoka, from my experience she's fine with her Brave Lance. Her Spd tier is kinda low, so without the Brave Lance she'd actually have a harder time dealing with some swords ex. neutral Def Lucina only takes 40 dmg from neutral Atk Hinoka with a Sapphire Lance, and probably won't be doubled...whereas Brave Lance Hinoka smacks her for 26 x2. I mean...you could toss on Swordbreaker, but...why, when she has the tools to succeed built in? Brave's also safer. I still don't know how I feel about Brash Assault [not Lyn]. Just...feels a little risky to me, though I'm sure there's someone that could pull it off (I read something somewhere on these boards about Defiant Def/Brash Assault Seliph actually, which sounds interesting edit: though maybe Armored Blow so he can also take a Def buff?). imo for Hinoka specifically, you might as well just run Brave and 2-hit starting at full HP, without having to take a shot in between.

Brave Cherche is fine, I think that's what's been going around as "the build" for her. I've seen a total of 3 Cherches in the Arena, all of them were Brave Axe/Death Blow.

On Palla, does she need Brash? I'm sure it would be great for fighting Axes, but the most common Axe I've seen is Hector (with Camilla as a reeeeeeeallly distant 2nd), who Palla usually doubles anyway. Depending on what assist you're giving her, her default Wings might be fine. I'm kinda afraid of what would happen if you sent in a low HP Palla to fight a not-axe (unless you're also tossing her like, Armored Blow or something).

Edited April 12, 2017 by LordFrigid

[Kaden]

It was probably said somewhere before, but holy crap, I just realized the implications of being able to pass down skills through Merge Allies. You could take a duplicate unit and have them be SP fodder to buy all the skills you want and then merge them with the unit you intend to use. For example, say you want a Brave Axe and Bonfire on Frederick. That's going to cost 750 SP. You level a spare Frederick to level 40 who would end up with at least 540 SP minus any SP he'd gain from KO'ing units. That's enough for Bonfire or Brave Axe and Glowing Ember.

This reminds me of weapon upgrading in Dark Cloud 2. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by Kaden

[ILikeKirbys]

@Kaden That makes sense. Thanks, mate.

@LordFrigid Glad to hear your team's coming along well.

Refarding my team...

Hinoka's getting Brash Assault so that, with Defiant DEF, she can have 36 DEF while in Brash Assault range and quad-hit any enemy, which I think would be pretty good (once I decide whether to go Ignis (I outlined why this would work back when I was talking about Brash Assault Donnel a couple posts back, and I think Hinoka could pull this off too) or Galeforce (probably not this, since I don't have 5-Star Cordelia to peel it off of, but if I did, Hinoka could potentially get an extra turn every time she quads while in Brash Assault range, which is interesting if not particularly practical). I want her to be able to do more than be a Hone Fliers bot, and I think this could maybe work.

Cherche... Well, I'm glad to hear Brave Axe Cherche works. She isn't getting Death Blow tho (I don't have anyone I would give up who has that). Maybe I'll throw Defiant DEF on her, since I want to give her Brash Assault so she can quad people (and then I'll toss Escutcheon or Sacred Cowl onto her for extra protection, since I don't think she needs to run Ignis for more damage).

The thinking behind giving Palla Brash Assault is that she can take advantage of the defensive benefit of the Ruby Sword (forcing an extra -20% damage on the Green enemy's ATK) to survive longer while always doubling at the Brash Assault HP threshold. Giving her Armored Blow is a good idea though, I'll consider it if I keep this build on Palla (I'm having second thoughts right now, since I'm out of Bartres to sack for Brash Assault and also I'm not sure Palla has the defenses for it, she might just be better with Wings of Mercy here... I'll have to think about this one).

As for Bunny Camilla, I think she'll need to be my archer bait, since she can counterattack them and has good DEF, so I'll go with Triangle Adept 2 (3 if I ever get another Roy) and Gronnraven (after finishing the Orbs quest that requires Cecilia killing high-level enemies, unless I have a spare lying around) for her.

And @eclipse I'll keep that in mind. Bunny Camilla is serviceable right now, so she'll do well enough until I get the pieces together to make her a monster.

Thanks, everyone!

[mcsilas]

@Kaden and @ILikeKirbys

Some interesting idea discussion for Beruka and Hinoka, I'm really interested in those since I pulled 5 stars of them, and I wasn't sure what the best skills to give them are.

I've been playing around with the damage calc based on the discussion set with the natures of my Beruka (+HP/-Spd) and Hinoka (+HP/-Atk). So mabye some sets would go something like these?

Beruka

 

--Quick Riposte--

Killer Axe+

Bonfire

Reposition/Swap

A- HP+5/Iote's Shield

B- Quick Riposte

C- Any

-More of an enemy phase unit, mostly to bait blue units. Inspired by Subaki's Quick Riposte, it started out with Triangle Adept as a pseudo-Axe version of Subaki, but surprisingly, using HP+5/Iote's Shield nets her more KOs (including neutral Lucina and Lon'qu) acording to the calculator. HP+5 lets her survive 1 more unit- which is Hana, leaving Beruka with 4 HP, which is interesting to say the least, although Iote's Shield protects her from Takumi/Klein/Jeorge/Virion (HP+5 lets her survive everyone else).

--Player Phase Fem!Narcian--

Brave Axe+

Bonfire

Reposition/Swap

A- Death Blow/Triangle Adept

B- Lancebreaker

C- Savage Blow

Her speed is slow anyway, and Brave Axe's doubling and Lancebreaker ensures her 52 wins against the cast (compared to Narcian's 47 wins according to the calc). Savage Blow is just splash damage ala Narcian. Death Blow is preferred for more player phase damage although Triangle Adept can be a defensive option and act more like Narcian. Cherche does Brave Axe sets better but this is an option if you want a unit that's tankier than Narcian and nets more KOs.

--Brash Assault--

Killer Axe+

Bonfire

Reposition/Swap

A- Defiant Defense

B- Brash Assault

C- Savage Blow/Threaten Def

-Relatively cheap to build since she already has Killer Axe and Defiant Defense. With Killer Axe, Bonfire activates on the Brash Assault follow-up.

Hinoka

Spoiler

 

---Brave Coverage---

Brave Lance+

Luna

Reposition/Swap

A- Triangle Adept 3/Death Blow

B- Lancebreaker

C- Savage Blow/Hone Speed

Took what @LordFrigid into account about Brave Lance+. This nets her 64 wins with my -Atk nature (76 if neutral Attack- and if comparing to Cordelia, is only 1 less than Cordelia's 77). If forgoing bulk for pure offense with Death Blow, this shoots up to Hinoka defeating 79 units (88 if neutral)- if you have a spare Klein. Brave Lance + Lancebreaker double activates Luna. Savage Blow is just a splash damage option because any chip damage sounds good to make up for her Attack bane :( 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2017 by mcsilas

[PowerVZ]

13 hours ago, MrSmokestack said:

Don't use Poison Strike, since dead units don't take damage from it. If you're truly keen on using Vantage and can make it work with your team, I won't stop you.

What skills do your Nowi and Draug have? From what I'm aware, both units prefer to doubleattack through Quick Riposte rather than through actual speed advantage, so I don't think Hone Spd would work for either of them. Olivia as the Dancer shouldn't be attacking or getting attacked, not to mention her speed tier is also mediocre.

Overall, I would say Hone Atk fits your team best for Kagero's C.

 

Sorry for the late response!

Here are my Kagero's teammates  :

-Atk +Res 4* Nowi : definitely not perfect IVs and i gave her TA3 (RIP Roy). I regret a lot.

Neutral 4* Olivia : no skills inherited, I just use her as a dancer and atk buffer.

+Atk -Res 4* Draug : I invested a lot on him skill-wise. And I intend to give him the Wo Dao+, Renewal 3 and Pivot once i'll have the opportunity to do so, He's a beast.

I guess Hone Atk 3 is always useful but I already have it on Olivia. And Hone Speed 3 would possibly allow Nowi not getting doubled every time she engages the fight. But I feel like Fortify Res 3 is more useful here since my team is very vulnerable to mages, do you agree ?

13 hours ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Alright, so with Kagero/Nowi/Draug/Olivia... Since you already have Hone ATK via Olivia, I would say that the best C Skill for Kagero on this team would be Fortify DEF or Fortify RES, depending on whether you want to patch up your teammates' lower RES or further buff their higher DEF. This stays the same once you add Lilina to your team, but I could see Lilina wanting Fortify RES to take on enemy mages.

And yeah, as BANRYU said, stick Ardent Sacrifice on Kagero. Do you have a Florina or Donnel you can pluck it off of?

Sorry I took so long to respond, the forum ate my last attempt to respond.

Hey ! Thanks a lot for your advice I put Fortify Res 3 on her and I feel like it's a good idea since my team is so frail against magic.

Hmm, concerning getting Ardent Sacrifice, I didn't get any Florina/Rebecca/Linde since i've started playing, but got some Donnels. However, he doesn't learn it ! :(

Also, sorry for the late reply, I was out today and couldn't write a clean post without my computer. Anyway thanks a lot for your help ! :)

[MrSmokestack]

@PowerVZ, I wouldn't worry too much about your Nowi, actually. Even at -Atk, with Triangle Adept and Quick Nowi handles opposing reds just fine, which are a pretty big threat to her and her team more than anything. That, and you can always pass it on to any Nowi you get in the future. You don't even have to grind the SP again!

And good point on the overlapping C Hone Atk on your team, though Hone Spd still isn't something I recommend. My vote goes to Threaten Def instead. Mages shouldn't give you too much trouble if you have Kagero + Dancer, and Res isn't the best defensive buff to begin with.

[PowerVZ]

6 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

@PowerVZ, I wouldn't worry too much about your Nowi, actually. Even at -Atk, with Triangle Adept and Quick Nowi handles opposing reds just fine, which are a pretty big threat to her and her team more than anything. That, and you can always pass it on to any Nowi you get in the future. You don't even have to grind the SP again!

And good point on the overlapping C Hone Atk on your team, though Hone Spd still isn't something I recommend. My vote goes to Threaten Def instead. Mages shouldn't give you too much trouble if you have Kagero + Dancer, and Res isn't the best defensive buff to begin with.

I guess Threaten Defense 3 maximises Kagero's damage output, if combined with Death Blow 3, I'll try this out. I'm afraid Kagero will never stand two spaces away of any enemy though, and heck, that C skill doesn't matter anyway she wrecks anybody she has deal with ! 

[ILikeKirbys]

@PowerVZ Always glad to help! Except with Donnel, haha. Forgot he had Reciprocal Aid there.

And like MrSmokestack said, don't worry about Nowi's IVs, she'll function pretty well with just Swordbreaker and Triangle Adept as long as you keep her away from Greens (especially Julia, even +RES Nowi probably won't survive a hit from Naga after TA3's exaggerated WTA is applied to it).

1 hour ago, mcsilas said:

@Kaden and @ILikeKirbys

Some interesting idea discussion for Beruka and Hinoka, I'm really interested in those since I pulled 5 stars of them, and I wasn't sure what the best skills to give them are.

I've been playing around with the damage calc based on the discussion set with the natures of my Beruka (+HP/-Spd) and Hinoka (+HP/-Atk). So mabye some sets would go something like these?

Beruka

  Reveal hidden contents

--Quick Riposte--

Killer Axe+

Bonfire

Reposition/Swap

A- HP+5/Iote's Shield

B- Quick Riposte

C- Any

-More of an enemy phase unit, mostly to bait blue units. Inspired by Subaki's Quick Riposte, it started out with Triangle Adept as a pseudo-Axe version of Subaki, but surprisingly, using HP+5/Iote's Shield nets her more KOs (including neutral Lucina and Lon'qu) acording to the calculator. HP+5 lets her survive 1 more unit- which is Hana, leaving Beruka with 4 HP, which is interesting to say the least, although Iote's Shield protects her from Takumi/Klein/Jeorge/Virion (HP+5 lets her survive everyone else).

--Player Phase Fem!Narcian--

Brave Axe+

Bonfire

Reposition/Swap

A- Death Blow/Triangle Adept

B- Lancebreaker

C- Savage Blow

Her speed is slow anyway, and Brave Axe's doubling and Lancebreaker ensures her 52 wins against the cast (compared to Narcian's 47 wins according to the calc). Savage Blow is just splash damage ala Narcian. Death Blow is preferred for more player phase damage although Triangle Adept can be a defensive option and act more like Narcian. Cherche does Brave Axe sets better but this is an option if you want a unit that's tankier than Narcian and nets more KOs.

--Brash Assault--

Killer Axe+

Bonfire

Reposition/Swap

A- Defiant Defense

B- Brash Assault

C- Savage Blow/Threaten Def

-Relatively cheap to build since she already has Killer Axe and Defiant Defense. With Killer Axe, Bonfire activates on the Brash Assault follow-up.

Hinoka

  Reveal hidden contents

 

---Brave Coverage---

Brave Lance+

Luna

Reposition/Swap

A- Triangle Adept 3/Death Blow

B- Lancebreaker

C- Savage Blow/Hone Speed

Took what @LordFrigid into account about Brave Lance+. This nets her 64 wins with my -Atk nature (76 if neutral Attack- and if comparing to Cordelia, is only 1 less than Cordelia's 77). If forgoing bulk for pure offense with Death Blow, this shoots up to Hinoka defeating 79 units (88 if neutral)- if you have a spare Klein. Brave Lance + Lancebreaker double activates Luna. Savage Blow is just a splash damage option because any chip damage sounds good to make up for her Attack bane :( 

 

 

On Beruka:

Does that first set really kill Lucina? That's pretty impressive. Nice defensive set, there.

On F!Narcian, Beruka will be hitting lancers 4 times (2 hits > counter > 2 hits), so you could run Ignis instead of Bonfire on this set for added power (not sure Beruka needs it, but it's an option) or Galeforce for an extra turn when at low HP, which could come in handy). Otherwise, I like this set too.

The Brash Assault set is probably the best set for offensive Beruka (that or F!Narcian, but I think BABeruka's a little better since her monstrous DEF and thus stronger Bonfires, as well as being able to double non-lancers for added versatility, would possibly push her over the top).

On Hinoka:

I like that build. It makes sense, given that she's -ATK. Not sure I'd go for Luna here, since Hinoka gets 5 hits via Lancebreaker + Brave Lance and thus could probably go for a 4-Cooldown skill (not sure if any of those can outdamage Luna tho) or Galeforce (would activate after a full round of combat against lancers, giving Hinoka another turn, which would probably be useful), but I can see the merits of running Luna here.

Good luck with however you decide to run Beruka and Hinoka, mate.