What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Shrimpica]

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

the same can be said for some of it's male characters.

I mean, i don't think most male characters are that good, but they don'T even get treated half as bad as Female characters.

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

there are just a lot fewer female characters overall which makes the common tropes the series uses (a lot of the time gameplay motivated) seem more problematic

I mean, other series have less female (main) characters and i still ended up liking them much more than i do in FE. 

And it's not like FE doesn't have good written Female characters, quite a few of my fav. side characters in FE are female ones , withth Jill being my all time fav. FE character, but she is from Tellius which is an exception as i said above. And so are most of my fav. female side characters, either Tellius or 3H (the exceptions), with some Jugdral here and there.

It's just the female MCs seems to...be much worse than usual in comparison imo

Even the situations you described when males need ''saving'' can't be compared at all with what happens with female ones.

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Alm

he is as bad as the avatars

No, even worse.

He just has a name so people forgive him

Edited December 23, 2021 by Father Shrimpas

[joevar]

1 hour ago, Lorneus said:

Ah, yeah. The presentation scene of Camilla... and actually all royal girls for that matter, was quite jarring to say the least. And I can definitely understand the sentiment for Manuela and Miranda. I tend to not like fanservice for the sake of fanservice. I prefer when they give a reason, something that makes sense behind it, even if I can see the authorial intent. For instance, showing someone in the shower just to be "LOOK! THEY'RE NAKED!" is something pretty random and annoying to me. However, if the character has something on their body that reveals something about them and they would've kept it to themselves otherwise (scars, tattoos, marks of self-harm, etc.) then even if I know it could've been revealed in another way, I'm okay with it, because at least they're doing something with it.

theres an ongoing anime that has overall serious tone that done it. at first it looks like "oh, a brief fanservice just to make the series less serious" then comes the talk in the shower which reveals the back of the woman that has big scar that form a derogatory term, turns out its not fanservice but actual character backstory reveal since the scar are always hidden usually by the character full outfit and long hair

i like fanservice in game, if the game are meant to be a fanservice game, or openly want to gain attention of certain demographic/player that like it. or if its hidden in the side story -side activity that you may miss/skip entirely. not shoved in your face, but dont want to admit it become fanservice-y game. heck, even Dead or Alive tone it down a teeny little bit of fanservice (correct me if im wrong) from last entry and focus the fanservice in spin-off game.

34 minutes ago, Father Shrimpas said:

Did we forget Deirdre? Ms. ''I brith Seliph then get kidnapped''?

even as someone who hasnt play genealogy, i think i know enough that Deirdre take top spot in damsel in distress category, if not the crowned queen of that category already.

57 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I don't think Fire Emblem has ever been particularly misogynistic,

theres one thing that FE still guilty of rather than being mysogynistic, which is: sticking with Manichianeism type of story telling. (the forces of good versus evil).

even 3H still guilty of that imo despite the 3-way war, by virtue of avatar.
"not siding with avatar? oh boi, prepare to be defeated"

Edited December 23, 2021 by joevar

[ping]

24 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I can understand why people have these critisisms and feel they exclusively hit the female characters, but I feel that's mainly because there, for the most part (and despite Heroe's attempts to mask otherwise), there are just a lot fewer female characters overall which makes the common tropes the series uses (a lot of the time gameplay motivated) seem more problematic. Like if you changed absolutely nothing about how Morva is handled in Sacred Stones except that he now has breasts, people would see Morvena showing up only to immediately get zombified as problematic while it doesn't seem like it's part of any sort of pattern if he's a male character (because there are a lot more male characters to break up such patterns when they're used).

The problem isn't so much that there are female protagonists that get shoved to the sidelines, it's that there aren't any that are not. (pre-3H, haven't played, yaddayaddayadda)

• Celica? Falls into Jedah's trap and has no active role after Alm rescues her dashingly.
• Lyn? lol.
• Eirika? OK, she remains a co-protagonist throughout the game, which makes her role even a bit bigger than Ephraims, but she still comes across as the "stupid twin" because Ephraim is far more competent and his overconfidence is honestly just confidence if he just succeeds all the damn time.
• Elincia? In PoR, she takes Marth's spot in the classic FE formula. Unfortunately, that's the game where Ogma is the main character. In RD, she has a great, but very short arc centred on her and by part 4, she isn't even the lord of her quarter of the chapters anymore.
• Micaiah? Ends up as Yune's vessel. At least it's a goddess, so yay her.
• Fates's (Fates' ?) princesses? All less competent and less important than their brothers. They don't even have their own cool personal weapons because who the fuck cares about Hinoka? Not the writers, that's for sure.

Fire Emblem just can't have a female character that picks up the reins and takes over the story or, god forbid, be the solo protagonist of a game. It's always the other way around, if there was even a Lady to begin with.

edit: Kind of like the "Apu problem". The problem isn't that Apu exists, it's that only Apu exists.

Edited December 23, 2021 by pong

[Etrurian emperor]

It really depends on the game on how well the female half of its roster are treated. 

Three Houses stands out as particularly favorable towards its female cast. The conflict is between two woman, the strongest knight on the Church's disposal is a woman, and the female of the three lords is far more central to the plot than her male counterparts.

I think the Tellius games are pretty fair towards their female characters too. Elincia and Sanaki are both given much prominence and favorable treatment and various highly capable female warriors exist. Michy is more dainty but that does fit her general personality and role in the story. 

Blazing Sword, the Jugdral games and Sacred Stones are all fine enough in their representation. 

Its only really Echoes and Binding blade which are a bit problematic in the sense that about every single female unit you recruit needs to be fetched from a jail cell. Doesn't matter if you're a mage general, a legendary dark sorcerer, the strongest knight in the land or a young girl. All end up getting stuffed in the dungeon or at least brainwashed. 

[Interdimensional Observer]

4 hours ago, Kori said:

Oh, there is plenty of judging and shaming people for only liking male characters because of their looks. It just tends to be aimed at women, or at least at people perceived to be women on the internet

I've seen Tales character popularity polls. They're almost invariably all male. Not because the Tales franchise can't write good female characters, but because it's women who take the majority of interest in said polls, so "popularity" can be taken to some extent as a husbando poll.

4 hours ago, Kori said:

That brings to mind PoR (and other older FEs, this is just the only one where I know examples off the top of my head), where some characters' limited support list is in itself a piece of characterization. It could be interesting to try and come up with a full as-many-as-the-game-will-allow (7?) support set for Soren, Volke, or Stefan, but if the game did it, some of their character might be diluted in the process.

FE7's Rath is another character that comes to mind. Though in his case, he isn't antisocial, nor angsty, Rath is stoic. But, one can be politely stoic, merely quiet and perhaps introspective by nature, without having a shyness problem wherein they secretly want more friends.

Limiting support convos based one's natural disposition is a good idea, there is no reason Awakening's Miriel should have practically as many conversations as a socialite like Maribelle.

I also believe it makes sense to limit one's supports to characters who may "naturally" make sense for support partners, to some extent. Mages with mages, siblings with siblings, royals peasants with peasants, people with their compatriots, and sometimes rivals or opposites attract. Although, occasionally you do get the odd matchup that turns out very well, like Tauroneo and Rolf, having a few unexpected dialogue buds can make some sense.

 

1 hour ago, Lorneus said:

Sadly, I haven't played enough of PoR to say, but it seems everyone praises supports and general characterization/story in that one, so I should really get back to it XD

THERE WAS NEVER A GOLDEN AGE OF SUPPORTS!

...As much as I personally love PoR b/c childhood memories, I must deflate expectations. Hype is evil!👿 You will find at least a few dud conversations in every single Fire Emblem. Again, writing for a cast of at least 33, that's bound to happen.

[Lorneus]

2 minutes ago, joevar said:

theres an ongoing anime that has overall serious tone that done it. at first it looks like "oh, a brief fanservice just to make the series less serious" then comes the talk in the shower which reveals the back of the woman that has big scar that form a derogatory term, turns out its not fanservice but actual character backstory reveal since the scar are always hidden usually by the character full outfit and long hair

Yep, that's what I'm talking about. That would be an effective use of fanservice if the overall series isn't focused on it.

3 minutes ago, joevar said:

i like fanservice in game, if the game are meant to be a fanservice game, or openly want to gain attention of certain demographic/player that like it. or if its hidden in the side story -side activity that you may miss/skip entirely. not shoved in your face, but dont want to admit it become fanservice-y game. heck, even Dead or Alive tone it down a teeny little bit of fanservice (correct me if im wrong) from last entry and focus the fanservice in spin-off game.

Yeah. For fanservice to be good, it would need to be organic, whether it is in tone, intent or story-wise, with the rest of the work. Putting in a fanservicey character/scene smack dab in the middle of a serious story with nothing to tie it to what happened before or after in a meaningful way (meaning other than chain of actions) just takes you out of the story and is an almost guaranteed ticket to make you think about the devs/writers instead of staying immersed in the work. It's off-putting. Being open about it probably brings down the demographic a lot, but at least the players know why they're consuming the product and that makes it infinitely better than just surprising the audience with a tone-deaf fanservice.

4 minutes ago, pong said:

The problem isn't so much that there are female protagonists that get shoved to the sidelines, it's that there aren't any that are not. (pre-3H, haven't played, yaddayaddayadda)

Huh. Maybe I never noticed that because I never cared for any protagonist in Fire Emblem and was always more interested in the side characters anyway. I find most male protagonists to be so incredibly boring and mostly a plot/mechanic device than anything else that I tend to overlook them. Only exceptions are probably Ephraim, Ike and Hector. Maybe the 3H lords as well, but Edelgard also counts within that. So to me, having a "strong" female or male protagonist meant nothing because they were probably going to be cookie-cutter boring mc. anime-protag either way, and they could create much more interesting characters with the rest of the cast anyway. Now that 3H made lords that are not exactly the same "save my friends" character archetype (or something akin to it) over and over again, it could be more interesting, but I still wouldn't care that much because they've also tried to flesh out the rest of the cast more and we could still have interesting female characters either way. I don't see why they would need to be an MC to count. Then again, I'm clearly biased cause I generally don't care for FE lords, so take it as you will.

You also forgot Lucina in your list, which is, imo, half-sidelined. She's quite integral to the plot, and is shown as competent, but her efforts to change things are often brought to naught because people just repeat what was done, but somehow things change for... reasons... Of course, Chrom stays the main protag for the entire story, but Lucina isn't completely shoved aside still.

[Lorneus]

2 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

THERE WAS NEVER A GOLDEN AGE OF SUPPORTS!

...As much as I personally love PoR b/c childhood memories, I must deflate expectations. Hype is evil!👿 You will find at least a few dud conversations in every single Fire Emblem. Again, writing for a cast of at least 33, that's bound to happen.

Oh, I didn't mean it in a "all supports will be good" way. I mean, I enjoyed Awakening supports a lot, and there was the Brady soup support in it. Even Fates, I found gems in it while there was the salt vs sauce chicken fight between Selkie and Shiro. It's just that generally speaking, people seem to praise it, so I'm thinking I'm bound to find some interesting ones here and there in it. I mean, I even really liked Beruka and Saizo's C support, which I felt in character, and a little meta. Not the best, not one that gave any insight in the characters that we didn't already have, but it was funny and well-placed. I don't mind duds existing in the game, and I haven't found a single Fire Emblem where I didn't enjoy at least one support conversation, and that's enough for me. If there's one character I can genuinely like and learn more about, it'll drive me enough to go through with it.

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 minute ago, Lorneus said:

Oh, I didn't mean it in a "all supports will be good" way. I mean, I enjoyed Awakening supports a lot, and there was the Brady soup support in it. Even Fates, I found gems in it while there was the salt vs sauce chicken fight between Selkie and Shiro. It's just that generally speaking, people seem to praise it, so I'm thinking I'm bound to find some interesting ones here and there in it. I mean, I even really liked Beruka and Saizo's C support, which I felt in character, and a little meta. Not the best, not one that gave any insight in the characters that we didn't already have, but it was funny and well-placed. I don't mind duds existing in the game, and I haven't found a single Fire Emblem where I didn't enjoy at least one support conversation, and that's enough for me. If there's one character I can genuinely like and learn more about, it'll drive me enough to go through with it.

And I was intentionally being overly dramatic here.😄

Again, I am a believe in deflation of expectations. If you're already chill, good. If you're so hyped up there is a chance you'll be disappointed and fall back to Earth a meteor that causes a tsunami and blocks all sunlight for three months due to the ash cloud it generates on impact, then I must stop you!⚔️

[Lorneus]

2 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And I was intentionally being overly dramatic here.😄

Again, I am a believe in deflation of expectations. If you're already chill, good. If you're so hyped up there is a chance you'll be disappointed and fall back to Earth a meteor that causes a tsunami and blocks all sunlight for three months due to the ash cloud it generates on impact, then I must stop you!⚔️

Yeah, I can get that. It happened with KH3 to me. Kind of. I'm not one prone to very strong emotions, so even my disappointment wasn't that big, but I was quite excited for a few of the new worlds, which ended up being the least interesting imo. And in the end, worlds I didn't think I'd give a second look were among my favorites. I was also disappointed with the way combat was handled, and it may have taken away from the overall experience, but looking back on it after in a better state of mind, I could realize I would've disliked it either way. I guess it's a poor example, even if my expectations DID negatively affect my experience with that game, haha.

Expectations do tend to leave a sour taste when the end product doesn't end up meeting them, but I think it can sometimes enhance the experience as well in healthy levels, as it can push you to keep going in places you would've otherwise dropped everything, and keep you on your toes.

As an example, people kept praising S;G as a masterpiece, and if not for that, I wouldn't have ever checked the second episode. Granted, my expectations weren't sky-high because I tended to have different tastes than the ones who hyped it up to me, but I thought it must have had some merit to be praised like that, so I gave it a second chance and enjoyed it. It wasn't the greatest thing of all time, nor a masterpiece, imo, but it was above average and interesting, despite its shortcomings. Without the hype, I would've written it off as incredibly boring with uninteresting characters in my personal viewpoint because of episode 1.

And I know we can give the argument of "giving a fair chance" but I think the fair chance varies per person. It needs to meet between what the product provides and what the consumer can take. If someone tries a product, and gives it up or hates it before most people would consider it worthwhile, I think it's a fair chance if that person's experience wasn't worth their while. Going over that isn't a bad idea, but it is more of a second chance than what was fair between the two parties, imo.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, pong said:

The problem isn't so much that there are female protagonists that get shoved to the sidelines, it's that there aren't any that are not. (pre-3H, haven't played, yaddayaddayadda)

• Celica? Falls into Jedah's trap and has no active role after Alm rescues her dashingly.
• Lyn? lol.
• Eirika? OK, she remains a co-protagonist throughout the game, which makes her role even a bit bigger than Ephraims, but she still comes across as the "stupid twin" because Ephraim is far more competent and his overconfidence is honestly just confidence if he just succeeds all the damn time.
• Elincia? In PoR, she takes Marth's spot in the classic FE formula. Unfortunately, that's the game where Ogma is the main character. In RD, she has a great, but very short arc centred on her and by part 4, she isn't even the lord of her quarter of the chapters anymore.
• Micaiah? Ends up as Yune's vessel. At least it's a goddess, so yay her.
• Fates's (Fates' ?) princesses? All less competent and less important than their brothers. They don't even have their own cool personal weapons because who the fuck cares about Hinoka? Not the writers, that's for sure.

Fire Emblem just can't have a female character that picks up the reins and takes over the story or, god forbid, be the solo protagonist of a game. It's always the other way around, if there was even a Lady to begin with.

edit: Kind of like the "Apu problem". The problem isn't that Apu exists, it's that only Apu exists.

I mean, that was kind of at the heart of what I was saying. It's standard Fire Emblem stuff, but there's a far smaller number of female characters to dilute it so to speak.

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

It really depends on the game on how well the female half of its roster are treated. 

Three Houses stands out as particularly favorable towards its female cast. The conflict is between two woman, the strongest knight on the Church's disposal is a woman, and the female of the three lords is far more central to the plot than her male counterparts.

I think the Tellius games are pretty fair towards their female characters too. Elincia and Sanaki are both given much prominence and favorable treatment and various highly capable female warriors exist. Michy is more dainty but that does fit her general personality and role in the story. 

Blazing Sword, the Jugdral games and Sacred Stones are all fine enough in their representation. 

Its only really Echoes and Binding blade which are a bit problematic in the sense that about every single female unit you recruit needs to be fetched from a jail cell. Doesn't matter if you're a mage general, a legendary dark sorcerer, the strongest knight in the land or a young girl. All end up getting stuffed in the dungeon or at least brainwashed. 

Miledy isn't ever rescued from a jail, though her brother is. In fact she's the one who breaks Guinevere out when she (Miledy, and unfortunately not Guinevere) joins.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Jotari

[Venger_06]

Multiple pairing options > canon pairings

Edited December 23, 2021 by Awakened_06_

[Lorneus]

3 minutes ago, Awakened_06_ said:

Multiple pairing options > canon pairings

Considering games with multiple pairings oftentimes provide a very heavily implied canon option, I'd say that could be true, so long as they provide sufficient work and attention to all the choices, and not just concentrate on the canon one and leave the rest to bite the dust. Then they might as well have created only one option, because the choice feels more insulting than anything else.

[Alastor15243]

2 hours ago, pong said:

The problem isn't so much that there are female protagonists that get shoved to the sidelines, it's that there aren't any that are not. (pre-3H, haven't played, yaddayaddayadda)

• Celica? Falls into Jedah's trap and has no active role after Alm rescues her dashingly.
• Lyn? lol.
• Eirika? OK, she remains a co-protagonist throughout the game, which makes her role even a bit bigger than Ephraims, but she still comes across as the "stupid twin" because Ephraim is far more competent and his overconfidence is honestly just confidence if he just succeeds all the damn time.
• Elincia? In PoR, she takes Marth's spot in the classic FE formula. Unfortunately, that's the game where Ogma is the main character. In RD, she has a great, but very short arc centred on her and by part 4, she isn't even the lord of her quarter of the chapters anymore.
• Micaiah? Ends up as Yune's vessel. At least it's a goddess, so yay her.
• Fates's (Fates' ?) princesses? All less competent and less important than their brothers. They don't even have their own cool personal weapons because who the fuck cares about Hinoka? Not the writers, that's for sure.

Fire Emblem just can't have a female character that picks up the reins and takes over the story or, god forbid, be the solo protagonist of a game. It's always the other way around, if there was even a Lady to begin with.

edit: Kind of like the "Apu problem". The problem isn't that Apu exists, it's that only Apu exists.

Hilariously in Micaiah's case, in her own story she does to Pelleas what Alm and Ephraim do to Celica and Eirika, which was amusing to discover. She's the one bailing the opposite sex royalty out of the consequences of their gentle, naive, overly-trusting ass.

[ping]

6 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Hilariously in Micaiah's case, in her own story she does to Pelleas what Alm and Ephraim do to Celica and Eirika, which was amusing to discover. She's the one bailing the opposite sex royalty out of the consequences of their gentle, naive, overly-trusting ass.

And I'll give Tellius this: at the end of RD, there's three women on the three big Beorc thrones, even though the actual legitimate heir to Daein's throne in Soren is still around. Micaiah is a very interesting character in part 1, Sothe's obnoxious insistence that she's a precious-cinnamon-bun-must-protect notwithstanding, and it's cool that the "after the end" narration acknowledges that she's the most fitting among potential leader of Daein. Still, during the climax of the story, she's there so that Yune can have somebody to possess.

I always compared Micaiah/Pelleas with the dynamic between Ike and Elincia: Young infante that was never supposed to rise to the throne and their loyal, highly competent and popular confidant - except that Pelleas constructed that set-up in Micky/Pelleas's case because he recognized the power of that narrative. Your comparisons work quite fine, too, though.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I mean, that was kind of at the heart of what I was saying. It's standard Fire Emblem stuff, but there's a far smaller number of female characters to dilute it so to speak.

Is it though? It's standard FE stuff for female leads, sure, but...

Every FE game has its eventual Hero and Saver of Days. The one exception is SacSto whose two protagonists remain on equal footing in terms of importance, but otherwise?

• Marth beats Medeus twice and is so super mega ultra awesome that he, the prince of a vassal or puppet state, gets to take over the entire empire.
• Alm, at the end, is The Hero. Celica was his water carrier, I guess. I like to cite Echoes' ending for Celica, with says that she, the legitimate queen of one half of the continent, became queen of Valentia in marrying Alm.
• I don't want to lean out the window too much with my Jugdral knowledge, so I'll just remark that all three protagonists are dudes.
• Roy.
• Eliwood. (Hector mode obviously takes some focus away from him, but Eliwood is still the hero of the story)
• Ike.
• Ike, again, this time with the added bonus of ursurping the title of Protagonist from Micaiah.

With avatars not having a predetermined gender, I guess the Savers of Days aren't dudes anymore, but at least for Fates, I'll point again to the fact that the by far biggest honchos among the royals are Xander and Ryoma.

[Jotari]

Just now, pong said:

And I'll give Tellius this: at the end of RD, there's three women on the three big Beorc thrones, even though the actual legitimate heir to Daein's throne in Soren is still around. Micaiah is a very interesting character in part 1, Sothe's obnoxious insistence that she's a precious-cinnamon-bun-must-protect notwithstanding, and it's cool that the "after the end" narration acknowledges that she's the most fitting among potential leader of Daein. Still, during the climax of the story, she's there so that Yune can have somebody to possess.

I always compared Micaiah/Pelleas with the dynamic between Ike and Elincia: Young infante that was never supposed to rise to the throne and their loyal, highly competent and popular confidant - except that Pelleas constructed that set-up in Micky/Pelleas's case because he recognized the power of that narrative. Your comparisons work quite fine, too, though.

Is it though? It's standard FE stuff for female leads, sure, but...

Every FE game has its eventual Hero and Saver of Days. The one exception is SacSto whose two protagonists remain on equal footing in terms of importance, but otherwise?

• Marth beats Medeus twice and is so super mega ultra awesome that he, the prince of a vassal or puppet state, gets to take over the entire empire.
• Alm, at the end, is The Hero. Celica was his water carrier, I guess. I like to cite Echoes' ending for Celica, with says that she, the legitimate queen of one half of the continent, became queen of Valentia in marrying Alm.
• I don't want to lean out the window too much with my Jugdral knowledge, so I'll just remark that all three protagonists are dudes.
• Roy.
• Eliwood. (Hector mode obviously takes some focus away from him, but Eliwood is still the hero of the story)
• Ike.
• Ike, again, this time with the added bonus of ursurping the title of Protagonist from Micaiah.

With avatars not having a predetermined gender, I guess the Savers of Days aren't dudes anymore, but at least for Fates, I'll point again to the fact that the by far biggest honchos among the royals are Xander and Ryoma.

Ike is there on equal footing with a female. That female isn't Micaiah though, it's Yune who is the real supplementer of Micaiah in the story. Lyn also has her own self contained story which she remains the protagonist of. Like it even has a credits roll. And sure it's not a saver of days plot, but it is still a complete and focused story (and honestly proper a better story than the actual main campaign of Blazing Blade).

[NaotoUzumaki]

Really can this thread go back to unpopular opinion instead of fighting amongst ourselves? I did have an echo chamber opinion before hell even eclipse told me about my post of three houses and I dropped and thank the lord I did drop it. It has done wonders to my argument and social skills.Speaking of unpopular opinion I would like for Fates guardian system where pairing unit can shield others to get revamped so it does tie with support. A lot of broken abusive mechanics can becomes good if tweaked properly.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

28 minutes ago, NaotoUzumaki said:

where pairing unit can shield others to get revamped so it does tie with support.

What do you mean with this? Amount of guards per map according to support rank? Or something else? Cuz it sounds like you want Awakenings PU system.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Imuabicus

[Sunwoo]

I feel like the role of female lords in the FE series as a whole is ... uh. Complicated, for the lack of a better word.

Female lords certainly exist, but we've never had one stand out on her own. They're always presented alongside at least one other male lord. Like Alm+Celica and Eirika+Ephraim being presented as an "equal" pair, Lyn being part of a trio of lords (but also the least important), Micaiah appearing alongside RD!Ike, and Edelgard /technically/ being more important than Dimitri or Claude, but she's still presented alongside them as a trio and it's arguable that none of them are lords anyway. We've never even had two female lords co-starring a single game. They also seem to have less ... options??? at the end of their stories and whatnot? Ask me to explain if this doesn't make sense.

So obviously while I can't prove this is the case, it does feel like for whatever reason most FE writers seem more comfortable with the standard of "man saves the day". I'm sure we all have our opinions as to why.

But on that topic, I really can't shake the feeling that there's a little bit of sexism present in the writers' attitudes anyway. After all, a princess still can't be empress in Japan, even though the emperor is just a figurehead and has no real power. And you know what, this isn't just a "Japan" problem. Every culture has their own various issues with sexism, even if the problem isn't always to the same degree as other places, and ... you know. So it really wouldn't surprise me if some of the writers have outdated beliefs on what a woman's role should be and it seeps into the writing, one way or another.

[NaotoUzumaki]

What I prefer is Fates shield gauge but better balanced to modern title so player don’t have to rely on turn wheel for ambush spawn. Not saying to get rid of the turn wheel for new players but having this option would make the old player who complained about it have other means to deal with these. That way map design can be solved in multiple ways.

[FailWood]

I still view Alm as a better character then Celica, and think he gets a lot more hate then he deserves.

Sure, I can see the criticism of Alm being "too perfect" even though I don't fully agree with it.  I personally view him as someone whose very mindful of his position and not taking it for granted (outside of wanting to help Delthea and Celica), and most of the "too perfect" mindset comes more from how the characters who interact with him talk to him and not because of what Alm does or how he handles things, so it's not something that he should be blamed for (it's a lot like how people hate Kris from FE12).  The people who don't like him reminds me of those who would scold others for simply doing as they're told.

The thing that'll always put Celica beneath him in my eyes is the fact that she willingly went along with Jedah's idea.  Even though I understand she was just trying to watch out for everyone else, putting her faith in Jedah was still an idiotic (and fatal) thing for her to do, and I was glad that Saber got so angry at her when he was trying to figure out what was going on.

[Eltosian Kadath]

21 hours ago, Jotari said:

That's another unpopular opinion I have. I just can't see the appeal of watching someone else play Fire Emblem. Someone talking about Fire Emblem and the strategies they use, or even their experiences iron manning, sure, that's interesting, but watching people actually play it? I'd rather just do that myself. Of course, I feel that way about all video games and even sports in general.

I think you are making a bit of an odd distinction here, as a part of the fun of watching someone play Fire Emblem is hear them talk about their strategies as they play, or sharing their experience. Additionally with commentary in conjunction with the gameplay the commentator(s) personas can be a notable appeal. Another part of it as well is simply getting to see what other people would do in certain situations, and that can lead to amusement or schadenfreude if they play worse than you, or that appreciation of skill if they are much better (this usually comes about when people are making specialized runs, like LTCs, Speedruns, 0% growth runs, or negative growth runs, etc.).

 

14 hours ago, Ottservia said:

We don’t judge people for liking male characters for just their looks so why should we do the same for people who like female characters. Seems like a bit of a double standard to me. And that’s not the only hypocritical thing here.

Plenty of people judge women for thirsting after fictional husbandos. Lots of derision to tumblr girls and their sexy men online, plenty of complaints about housewives for Twilight, plenty of judgement about the BL ladies, etc. The double standard is more that the characters created to blatantly appeal to female attracted individuals are far more mainstream than characters made to blatantly appeal to male attracted individuals. Note that both mainstream and blatantly is an important parts of that sentence.

 

8 hours ago, lenticular said:

Welp, I've been doing my utmost to keep far, far away from this cursed trainwreck of a thread, but I guess I've failed my wisdom save versus leaving well the fuck alone on this one.

I appreciate the D&D joke.

 

8 hours ago, lenticular said:

And then I feel even further creeped out when I realise that it is something that is ostensibly being done for my benefit, as the player/viewer. The game (or whatever) is making me complicit in the objectification, and I am not OK with that.

Yeah, that...uncomfortable...feeling of being complicit as the player is a big part of why I dislike fan service in a lot of games. I rather dislike it being forced into the mainstream as much as it is...

 

8 hours ago, Kori said:

where some characters' limited support list is in itself a piece of characterization.

I can't believe I didn't say it myself. It feels like such a simple extension on my earlier comment about who people can support with being a way of characterizing people.

 

4 hours ago, Lorneus said:

My guess is that they tend to make me laugh and it's an important detail to me, plus they tend to have looks that I like for some reason or another.

This makes sense, being funny is often seen as a sexy trait, and while stupid is funny in fiction, less so in real life.

 

4 hours ago, Father Shrimpas said:

Did we forget Deirdre? Ms. ''I brith Seliph then get kidnapped''?

Her normal recruitment is literally her coming to the party's rescue, using her Silence staff to save them from Sandima's Fenrir.

 

4 hours ago, Father Shrimpas said:

Oh it had strong Female side characters, yes, but strong Female Main characters? 

I am having a hard time thinking of a time they have a Female Main character that isn't presented as strong in one way or another. Not all of them end up being strong in the gameplay, but that is fairly common for FE main characters.

Ping (...sigh @pong) has a far more biting commentary with the male protagonists tending to be the focus, even when there is a female main character.

 

 6 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

 

Its only really Echoes and Binding blade which are a bit problematic in the sense that about every single female unit you recruit needs to be fetched from a jail cell. Doesn't matter if you're a mage general, a legendary dark sorcerer, the strongest knight in the land or a young girl. All end up getting stuffed in the dungeon or at least brainwashed. 

That seems like a bit of an over exaggeration to me, but just to double check...

Well with Echoes: Faye, Mae, Genny, Palla, Catria, and Sonya all don't (technically Delthea too, but mind control is close enough...)

As for Binding Blade: Shanna, Dorothy, Wendy, Fir, Tate, Echidna, Cath, Miledy, and Niime on the Sacae route all don't either.

 

3 hours ago, pong said:

Eirika? OK, she remains a co-protagonist throughout the game, which makes her role even a bit bigger than Ephraims, but she still comes across as the "stupid twin" because Ephraim is far more competent and his overconfidence is honestly just confidence if he just succeeds all the damn time.

More like Eirika has to compete with one of the Gariest Stus in Fire Emblem...

 

1 hour ago, pong said:

Marth beats Medeus twice and is so super mega ultra awesome that he, the prince of a vassal or puppet state, gets to take over the entire empire.

And could easily need Nagi to come save the day thanks to him failing to recover the Falchion, and killing Tiki. Heck in FE11 the divine dragons are far more likely than Marth to deal with Medeus.

 

 4 hours ago, pong said:

Celica? Falls into Jedah's trap and has no active role after Alm rescues her dashingly.

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I see Celica very differently. Her focus has always been on the peaceful and religious, and true to that core her successful end is martyrdom. Despite the doubter in her ranks, and Jedah's attempted betrayal, she succeeds. The tragedy of her martyrdom inspires the goddess Mila to intervene by not only releasing the Falchion, but granting Celica a divine resurrection. It did take an act of faith from Alm at the end, having to abandon all reason and trust in the merciful bounty of Mila by stabbing Celica with the Falchion, but the two of them combining their efforts and ideals to succeed was what we were heading towards the entire story. Her first act upon her resurrection is to find a balance between her own ideals with Alm, learning to have faith in humanity's strength, and joining him in his plan to kill Duma.

Also its very disingenuous to act like there is any game left for her to have an active role in, when her "rescue" is basically just before the last battle...

[Etrurian emperor]

1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

That seems like a bit of an over exaggeration to me, but just to double check...

Well with Echoes: Faye, Mae, Genny, Palla, Catria, and Sonya all don't (technically Delthea too, but mind control is close enough...)

As for Binding Blade: Shanna, Dorothy, Wendy, Fir, Tate, Echidna, Cath, Miledy, and Niime on the Sacae route all don't either.

A bit perhaps. But still only a bit. 

Though I'd argue Delthea and the Whitewhings do require rescuing. It seems the only reason Palla and Catria didn't join Est is because Celica happened to be around. And as you said Delthea is under mind control.

No perhaps not literally all of them. But definitely the majority or at least a good half of them.

[Dark Holy Elf]

  

11 hours ago, Father Shrimpas said:

I will qoute @Saint Rubenio from another Thread 

Quote

Camilla may be Camilla, but you know what? When the game establishes her as one of the continent's most powerful warriors, it actually sticks to its guns. She is an excellent asset when she's on your side and a terrifying foe when she isn't.

Then there's Echoes, where they try to tell you that Mathilda is kind of a big deal, but then she's introduced in the most disgraceful conditions possible, never does anything notable and then quits to be a housewife at the end of the game. What a waste.

Yeah this is very true, and an underrated part of Camilla's popularity.

16 hours ago, lenticular said:

So, hi. Queer woman here. Speaking only for myself, of course, because queer women are not a monolithic group and we have many varying and different opinions. For myself, though, when I see female characters -- be they in video games or other media -- I typically relate to them in two different ways.The first is external: is she an interesting character who drives the narative? Is she someone I would get along with if I met in real life? Do I find her physically attractive and enjoy looking at her? The second way is empathetic: can I imagine myself in her shoes? Is she having experiences similar to what I have had? Do I want to be her?

In cases of blatantly sexual objectification, the latter almost invariably wins out. I don't feel horny because, hey, hot woman, I feel creeped out because I see objectification and find it gross and creepy. And then I feel even further creeped out when I realise that it is something that is ostensibly being done for my benefit, as the player/viewer. The game (or whatever) is making me complicit in the objectification, and I am not OK with that.

This is especially the case when it comes to skeevy camera direction that unduly focuses on butt and boobs. If a woman is being presented as being comfortable with her sexuality then I can get behind that. At least in theory. Sometimes not, because it's handled attrociously, but if it's done well then I'm all for it. But when it's all about the camera lingering on boobs and butt, then that isn't something that the character is doing; that's something that is being done to the character. The focus is not on the character but on the person watching.

Well I'm glad you failed your wisdom save this time, since I think this is well said.

For me... this is where I was about a decade ago, and I'd never blame anyone for still being there. And yeah, the skeevy camera work just gets a big "why" from me. Even as far as attempts to titillate go, it's just so blatant that it ends up feeling creepy if anything. At best I just laugh and go "ohh, vidja games, you so silly" but I'd feel much happier if they just didn't do it.

To a certain extent I've come around on feeling that the most important thing is the overall presentation of the character on this front. Does the game respect the character? Does the game care about her thoughts/feelings, and make her someone that people empathise with, and not just a piece of eye candy? I'd argue that with Camilla (and Manuela, and Miranda) it does, whereas with Mathilda (among others, but I don't really want to throw other characters under the bus at the moment) it doesn't, so I end up liking the former group and not really the latter. (Obviously everyone reacts differently to different characters, of course; just stating my own reactions.)

For me, Bayonetta was a bit of a turning point. I was very uncomfortable with the game when I first played it. It was definitely due to some key women in my life telling me they thought the character was awesome, that they appreciated that she seemed to own her sexuality, and was in many ways a power-fantasy action hero in the tradition of James Bond or Dante, that brought me around to appreciating the character and her portrayal in the game, even if it does some of that stuff I found (and still find) a bit embarrassing. But it's a complicated issue; not all feminists feel the same way about Bayonetta by any means.

3 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

That seems like a bit of an over exaggeration to me, but just to double check...

Well with Echoes: Faye, Mae, Genny, Palla, Catria, and Sonya all don't (technically Delthea too, but mind control is close enough...)

As for Binding Blade: Shanna, Dorothy, Wendy, Fir, Tate, Echidna, Cath, Miledy, and Niime on the Sacae route all don't either.

I mean if you can only list a minority of women in a game who aren't kidnapped/held captive/hostage, that's not really saying much good about the games in question even if the original comment was a slight exaggeration. In the case of Echoes you'll notice that in particular, every single woman on Alm's route with the exception of Faye is damselfied at one point. It's embarrassing.

[Samz707]

14 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

  

 

I mean if you can only list a minority of women in a game who aren't kidnapped/held captive/hostage, that's not really saying much good about the games in question even if the original comment was a slight exaggeration. In the case of Echoes you'll notice that in particular, every single woman on Alm's route with the exception of Faye is damselfied at one point. It's embarrassing.

To be fair, literally the entire Ram Village cast needs to be rescued by Myson at the start.

While I obviously can't know for sure, since Gaiden added dungeons (With the exception of Mathilda) I think it was more "we added these new dungeon interiors, let's have most of the people you get be rescued" and the women characters are stronger than the men, which naturally means they have to join later and a nice convenient reason for why they don't join right away is already being captured, especially since Valentia is a small island. (Sometimes)

I could be being too generous but It comes off to me as overusing a new feature as a convenient "this is why the more stronger character didn't join already" excuse.

While The Valbar Crew aren't technically captive, they are in over-their-heads and in danger so you have to bail them out (You're still kinda rescuing them.), Zeke is being blackmailed and Jessie is also captured when you get them. (And Alm originally got flat-out trapped if I remember on that Volcano in Gaiden and Celica's entire party were trapped in the dungeon and all of them slowly dying after she met Jedah in the original Gaiden.)

I admit I am male but it didn't come off too bad and felt more like over-using dungeons as a recruitment method and plot excuse for their late-recruitment.

And at least in Mathilda's case, it does lead to a kinda interesting encounter where you have a friendly unit in distress/constant attack that functions as soft-time limit of sorts. (even if the Echoes CG Art for when Fernand visits her is dumb, at least it's one scene as opposed to the awful "sexy" character design in Heroes/Awakening that you constantly see so it bothers me less as opposed to waifu'd Lyn in Heroes.)

Edited December 24, 2021 by Samz707

[vanguard333]

12 hours ago, Father Shrimpas said:

Oh it had strong Female side characters, yes, but strong Female Main characters? 

Only Elincia and Edelgard come to mind imo.

And even Edelgard has the whole twistd shtick.

Fates doesn't atleast let it's female MCs (by that, the royal princesses of each faction) fall into any of the idiot stuff the series did before, despite Fates' very bad writing.

What about Micaiah? She's a strong main character overall. She does get overshadowed a bit, which is a shame, but she still is a strong character.

There's also Lucina. I can't believe I'm about to compliment Awakening, since I'm rather placid on it overall, but the story does utilize Lucina very well, all things considered, and she is a strong main character.