General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Xenomata]

37 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I have no idea what the last 3 have in common with the first 4 to count as stat effects.

You mean besides the fact that they are all the first effect listed on modern Prfs, the effect that usually has no half-screen spanning requirements? See almost ANY Prf weapon released on a new unit these days?

Then I dunno. It's just a name I came up with, same as how the community referred to Assets and Flaws as "Boons and Banes" until we were given an actual name for "when a unit has 3 more Atk than Neutral".

Edited February 2, 2020 by Xenomata

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Xenomata said:

@XRay @Jotari Therein lies a bit of a problem with refining weapons that have established effects in their original game. From a "lore" perspective it makes sense to give Raijinto a Death Blow/Fierce Stance refine, but in practice it doesn't actually make much sense to actually give to Ryoma because it does very little to actually improve his performance (and he still competes with many other DC swordies, but besides the point). So maybe it's cute that refined Fujin Yumi lets Takumi walk wherever the hell he wants like in Fates, but that doesn't even mean much of anything in most MAPS, let alone actual combat.

Besides, we now know what refines can truly do thanks to Leif's Light Brand refine, which already had a Stat+ and base effect but then got another Stat+ effect PLUS the refine effect. So if you wanted to give some sick refines to existing weapons while still making them useful, I have a few ideas...

Alondite / Ragnell: Grants Def +3. If Foe initiates combat and uses Sword, Lance, Axe, Breath, or Beast Damage, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res +5. (Alondite and Ragnell are basically the same weapon in the Tellius games, just one is locked to one character while the other can eventually be used by anyone. Anyway, I don't remember where I saw this but I seem to remember a ranged weapon in SOME game having a weaker attack at range? Plus given Ike's very close-range battle style in Smash Bros, I think it makes sense for him to have a close-range effect)

Divine Mist: Grants Spd +3. Grants bonus to Atk/Spd during combat equal to highest bonus applied to Def or Res. (a refine these days tends to work with the units base kit, and what better way to work with your base kit then to work with your own personal skill? Basically makes her With Everyone! skill grant herself an Atk/Spd +5 bonus, or higher if she is buffed by Fortify Res 4 or something.)

Expiration: Nullifies skills that disable counterattacks. If foe does not have a weapon that deals effective damage to unit, reduces damage from attacks during combat by 20% and grants Def/Res +5 to unit during combat. (As a final boss, Grima's weapon can counterattack at any possible Player range. Besides Dragonskin, Grima also comes with Pavise+ and Aegis+ on higher difficulties in Awakening, further making them hard to defeat with just normal weapons).

Just... actually now that I look back Grima's might be a little much... but eh, isn't that what peer review is for?

I personally care more about prioritizing lore over effectiveness. Of course it's ideal to have both. If one wants a very useful skill on Ragnell that has some lore implications, giving him Armour effectiveness would make sense given how Ragnell can cut through the blessed armour.

[DefyingFates]

3 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

You're probably thinking of Blazing Sword and The Sacred Stones. The GBA games don't have both a Str stat and Mag stat for units, so for those two games, it uses half of a unit's Str as a substitute for the Mag stat to calculate magic damage for magic swords.

Huh. So what happens if you use the enemy control glitch and give a melee unit the ability to use tomes? Does it treat their Str as Mag when calculating damage or halve it as for magic swords?

On topic, I agree that while sticking to canon is ideal, branching out with weapon refines is probably better in the long run...

[Ice Dragon]

15 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

You mean besides the fact that they are all the first effect listed on modern Prfs, the effect that usually has no half-screen spanning requirements? See almost ANY Prf weapon released on a new unit these days?

If a weapon has more than one of these effects (and several do), at what point do you consider an effect description no longer the first listed effect? How about neutralizing effective damage, which comes before Speed +3 on Snow's Grace?

It's clear that the reason they appear first is simply because they have short effect descriptions common to many weapons, making the full description easier to digest, and that there's nothing inherently special about those effects that somehow prevent them from being included as part of a refine effect.

 

We also already have Urvan, which also has 2 independent effects on its refine.

 

24 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

Then I dunno. It's just a name I came up with, same as how the community referred to Assets and Flaws as "Boons and Banes" until we were given an actual name for "when a unit has 3 more Atk than Neutral".

The terminologies "boon", "bane", "nature", and "IV" are from other games that have similar systems and are used because people are familiar with that terminology, whereas "stat effects" does not appear to be and is also far less accurately named (and refers to a grouping of skill effects that isn't useful to group together).

 

Just now, DefyingFates said:

Huh. So what happens if you use the enemy control glitch and give a melee unit the ability to use tomes? Does it treat their Str as Mag when calculating damage or halve it as for magic swords?

It still uses half of their Mag stat. There is no legal way to have a unit with both physical and magical weapon levels, so there was no reason to make magic swords behave any differently when all that was changed was the visual label on the unit's first non-HP stat.

[Ae†her]

On 2/1/2020 at 9:04 PM, Jotari said:

I personally care more about prioritizing lore over effectiveness. Of course it's ideal to have both. If one wants a very useful skill on Ragnell that has some lore implications, giving him Armour effectiveness would make sense given how Ragnell can cut through the blessed armour.

It shouldn't be that difficult to prioritize both considering the two paragraph weapon effects and refines we get nowadays. 

[Xenomata]

Who ready to REFINE?

Laslow's Blade If a movement assist is used by unit or target unit, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res +4 to target/targeting ally and allies within 2 spaces of unit and target or targeting ally for 1 turn after movement. (Excludes unit)
If unit is within 3 spaces of 2 or more allies who each have total bonuses > or = 10, grants Atk/Def +3 during combat and unit attacks twice.

Father's Tactics At start of combat, if unit's Res > foe's Res, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res +4 during combat.
Grants Atk/Spd +3 to allies within 2 spaces during combat. If unit is within 2 spaces of an ally, grants Atk/Spd +3 to unit during combat.

Devil Axe Grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res +4 during combat, but if unit attacked, deals 4 damage to unit after combat.
Same effect as Wrath 3

Jakob's Tray If unit initiates combat, inflicts Atk/Spd/Def/Res -4 on foe during combat. [Dagger 7]
if unit is within 3 spaces of an ally who has HP <100%, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res +4 to unit during combat.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Xenomata

[Zeo]

Laslows is a bit cumbersome to activate but it makes him B!Lucina's perfect partner. If you have them both, support them ASAP.

Morgan's is alright. Her SPD kinda sucks so even the buff won't save it, she's a better tank I suppose though.

Jakob's is situational and pretty boring to be honest.

Barst's is Amazing. 

Spectrum buffs are boring, but they tried to use their imagination more here, so the refines are decent. Laslow requires full invesment to be great so I'm going to pass on him. Probably not going to bother changing weapons for (or using) F!Morgan. But I'm definitely refining Barst's weapon. 

[eclipse]

Jakob's looks hilarious - it essentially increases his stats by eight.  Gonna give it a run now.

EDIT: It's hilarious.  My Jakob's +1 (Atk) and 46/32/25/24.  With Jakob's Tray fully active, he's 54/40/33/32.  Bulky enough to deal with a counter when he attacks, and ridiculous enough to make his hits hurt.  Can't bait for beans, but that's why we have units like Micaiah.

Edited February 6, 2020 by eclipse

[XRay]

9 minutes ago, Zeo said:

Morgan's is alright. Her SPD kinda sucks so even the buff won't save it, she's a better tank I suppose though.

Her Spd is more than salvageable. +Spd (33), Swift Sparrow (7), and Brazen Atk/Spd (7) alone gives her 47 Spd. VS!Azura is going to take that to 53 Spd with buffs. Unless the opponent runs Life and Death, not many units are going to out Spd her on their Enemy Phase. I would still stick with Blárblade though, because if they are running Life and Death, it makes them easier to die to Blárblade, and 53 Spd is more than sufficient for everyone else since they will be running Swift Sparrow and that is not active on Enemy Phase.

[Ice Dragon]

Holy shit Barst wins so many internets. Wrath on a weapon on a unit with access to Wrath in the B slot is amazing. I can see it now...

Barst [+Atk]
Devil Axe [unique]
Reposition
Bonfire
Sturdy Impact / Fury 4
Wrath 3
Time's Pulse 3
Sturdy Blow 2 / Quickened Pulse

Laslow gets a conditional Meisterschwert, which looks pretty good, though it does get completely crippled by Panic. Having its effect condition range be 3 spaces does help for player phase and keeps enemies from hitting support units with Panic+, but then you move outside of Drive range. Pretty decent nonetheless, though, since Meisterschwert is kind of always great, even when it's conditional.

Morgan's is okay, giving her pretty good stat boosts and a Drive effect. +7 to Atk and Spd is rather nice to have, though 4 of those points being dependent on a Res check is going to be a problem against modern tanks. Certainly better than Robin's, though.

Jakob's looks good on first glance, at least. His stat spread is ridiculously flat, so just giving him a lot of every stat is pretty much exactly what he wants. The conditional effect, though looks a bit annoying to set up.

 

16 minutes ago, XRay said:

Her Spd is more than salvageable. +Spd (33), Swift Sparrow (7), and Brazen Atk/Spd (7) alone gives her 47 Spd. VS!Azura is going to take that to 53 Spd with buffs. Unless the opponent runs Life and Death, not many units are going to out Spd her on their Enemy Phase. I would still stick with Blárblade though, because if they are running Life and Death, it makes them easier to die to Blárblade, and 53 Spd is more than sufficient for everyone else since they will be running Swift Sparrow and that is not active on Enemy Phase.

Also Atk/Spd Solo, which is easier to get.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Ice Dragon

[eclipse]

6 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Jakob's looks good on first glance, at least. His stat spread is ridiculously flat, so just giving him a lot of every stat is pretty much exactly what he wants. The conditional effect, though looks a bit annoying to set up.

Just tested it. . .it's not that bad.  Have someone tank a hit, and it fires off.  Used F!Byleth for my purposes, since she'll ping herself even if the attack bounces off of her.

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Just tested it. . .it's not that bad.  Have someone tank a hit, and it fires off.  Used F!Byleth for my purposes, since she'll ping herself even if the attack bounces off of her.

Yeah, the biggest problem I see is just the fact that you can't just send Jakob out first.

On the other hand... Wings of Mercy Jakob will always have the boost... hm...

[eclipse]

Waitaminute. . .that's a terrible idea.  There's a Lost Lore event going on.  Let's DO IT!

+12 stats to Jakob via S support with the guy with Yato, Y/Y?

[mcsilas]

6 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Waitaminute. . .that's a terrible idea.  There's a Lost Lore event going on.  Let's DO IT!

+12 stats to Jakob via S support with the guy with Yato, Y/Y?

Add Bond skills?

and then Blue Flame!

so glad Barst has a great refine, Double Wrath is gonna be spicy

time to part with a Karla!

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, mcsilas said:

Add Bond skills?

and then Blue Flame!

Bond?  Welp, Louise, it was nice knowing you!  No Blue Flame, don't have Owain.  Will stick with Luna, since it works wonders on defensive tanks.

[XRay]

16 minutes ago, eclipse said:

+12 stats to Jakob via S support with the guy with Yato, Y/Y?

Why 1 guy when you can have 2 guys? That is all stat +17 (you forgot the Ally Support giving all stat +1, or +2 if adjacent), and not factoring in C slot and Sacred Seal slot buffs. With full Drives, that is all stat +20.

A naked Jakob +Res+10+10 with Summoner Support go 50/37/39/33/36. With his dagger equipped, that is 50/51/39/33/36. All stat +20 is going to take that to 50/71/59/53/56. Lull Atk/Spd is going to turn that into 50/71/62/56/59.

[Jingle Jangle]

Both my guys have justice finally. Double wrath Barst sounds crazy levels of fun. For Laslow I'm planing to try out a discount Altina build; brave effect on both phases. Finally my +res fMorgan can do more. While the +3 speed is a bit odd it can help her avoid getting doubled more.

[DefyingFates]

I know Morgan's refine is just a weaker version of B!Lucina's, but it still makes think we'll see a Drive Atk/Spd 3 Tier 4 Skill at some point. Well, either that or a Joint Drive ability.

[Diovani Bressan]

For me, Barst is the winner this time. Death's effect and Wrath? That's great!

I am 5*ing Laslow, but I will not give him his refinement. I just want the base effect, because he will be so useful as a buffer in Arena Assault. I may get 2 Laslows for it.

 

2 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

I know Morgan's refine is just a weaker version of B!Lucina's, but it still makes think we'll see a Drive Atk/Spd 3 Tier 4 Skill at some point. Well, either that or a Joint Drive ability.

I think Father’s Tactics is more comparable with Camilla's Axe and Oscar's Loyal Greatlance than with Brave Lucina's Geirskögul:

Camilla's Axe: If unit is within 2 spaces of a cavalry or flying ally, grants Atk/Spd+4 during combat. Grants Atk/Spd+3 to cavalry and flying allies within 2 spaces during combat.
Loyal Greatlance: Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count-1). Grants Atk/Spd+3 to infantry and cavalry allies within 2 spaces during combat. If unit is within 2 spaces of an infantry or cavalry ally, grants Atk/Spd+3 during combat.

The difference is that Father’s Tactics grants Atk/Spd+3 to Morgan and allies, like Loyal Greatlance, but it works with ally allies and not only cavalry and flying, or infantry and cavalry.

Edit: I just noticed that Morgan's refinement uses the same icon as Oscar's refinement.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Diovani Bressan

[Hilda]

Assuming they wont touch Gen 1 Stave units, Distant Counter weapon units and GHB units (because they havent touched them in a looooooong time) there arent much Regular units left:
Draug, Effie, Arden, Olivia, Grey, Tobin
Azura, Donnel, Effie, Gwendolyn, Jagen, Ninian, Nowi, Corrin
Gunther, Sheena, Cecilia, Fea
Setsuna

Left out because GHB units: Ursula, Legion, Clarisse, Narcian

So we will most likely be done by the end of this year with Gen 1, which is kinda depressing considering how slow it moved how many units are left  out (staves DC weapon etc) ¬.¬

 

[DefyingFates]

30 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Left out because GHB units: Ursula, Legion, Clarisse, Narcian

I'm still hoping for a Lyon refine sooner than later. He's one of the first Gen 2 units right?

1 hour ago, Diovani Bressan said:

The difference is that Father’s Tactics grants Atk/Spd+3 to Morgan and allies, like Loyal Greatlance, but it works with ally allies and not only cavalry and flying, or infantry and cavalry.

Edit: I just noticed that Morgan's refinement uses the same icon as Oscar's refinement.

Thanks! And the edit's nice to know too! I should check the datamines when I have time, the refined effects usually have internal names too...

[Zeo]

17 hours ago, mcsilas said:

Add Bond skills?

and then Blue Flame!

so glad Barst has a great refine, Double Wrath is gonna be spicy

time to part with a Karla!

Astram?

[eclipse]

23 hours ago, XRay said:

Why 1 guy when you can have 2 guys? That is all stat +17 (you forgot the Ally Support giving all stat +1, or +2 if adjacent), and not factoring in C slot and Sacred Seal slot buffs. With full Drives, that is all stat +20.

A naked Jakob +Res+10+10 with Summoner Support go 50/37/39/33/36. With his dagger equipped, that is 50/51/39/33/36. All stat +20 is going to take that to 50/71/59/53/56. Lull Atk/Spd is going to turn that into 50/71/62/56/59.

Oh, didn't think of Lull!  Would probably do Spd/Def, since at that point I might as well shank the victim.

[Nym]

On 2/6/2020 at 1:43 PM, Hilda said:

GHB units (because they havent touched them in a looooooong time)

While you are correct with GHB units, at least they have worked quite recently on a TT unit.

Would be nice to know how their pattern works though.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Nym

[mcsilas]

9 hours ago, Zeo said:

Astram?

I’ve got 2 extra Karla manuals and i don’t particularly use her much

i mean sure Astram works too but grail cost (although to be fair doesn’t matter now since i haven’t foddered his extra copied yet)

i guess it depends ok what’s 4th skill barst can use for maximum inheritance (unless i use 4 star Astram for Wrath 2 then use Karla for So Wave nut that just feels wasteful)

on topic, i wish Jakob’s -4 debuff also works on enemy phase, too.