General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Fabulously Olivier]

Time to update my top 5s for weapon refinery now that they've given me Lukas.

 

5. Virion - He never really had a chance to shine, which is a shame. He's one of my personal favorites.

4. Legault - My favorite thief.

3. Berkut - His ingame performance really doesn't reflect just how great a character he is. Berkut's Lance is great... just not on Berkut.

2. Barst - Well rounded to a fault, Barst lacks any real niche.

1. Hawkeye - One of the worst characters in the game, Hawkeye has been a poster boy for weapon refines from the start. And we need more viable axe wielders that aren't armor.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Etheus

[mcsilas]

Wow was wondering when the Awakening Christmas cavs would get their turn. Great news since their use is so limited with their statlines, more so Sully.

Of course they give Lukas a refine just a week after I finally promoted one and gave him the Def refine Slaying Lance upgrade from his Killer Lance...oh well I guess Divine Dew. Still great news for him.

Faye will be interesting, I wonder if they'll still somehow incorporate a Firesweep effect while making an effect that caters to her defensive nature.

[Chrom-ulent]

22 minutes ago, Etheus said:

2. Barst - Well rounded to a fault, Barst lacks any real niche.

Everyone sees Barst as Reposition fodder. They should nod to that and give him Spectrum Link.

[redlight]

19 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Berkut - His ingame performance really doesn't reflect just how great a character he is. Berkut's Lance is great... just not on Berkut.

Berkut's Lance is as good as the unit it's equipped to. Basically, the weapon is just okay on him bcs Berkut is okay. But he does need a prf

27 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Hawkeye - One of the worst characters in the game

No he isn't, unless you're using Gamepress' tierlist which is a whole can of worms itself. He does need a prf though, but that's the standard for all gen 1 BST units

[Humanoid]

So the upcoming change rounds off all the existing Ruby Sword users. Top 5 units to get refinements are easy then - the five remainingg gem weapon users in Azura, Oscar, Subaki, Arthur and Narcian. That'd then leave the door open for Silver weapons, though there are some tomes that probably need a look-at in between.

[Ice Dragon]

If Faye's exclusive weapon isn't comparable to Guard Bow, it's going straight into the dumpster just like the Robins' weapons. There's zero point investing in Faye as anything other than a ranged wall.

 

2 hours ago, Anacybele said:

I'm shocked Stahl and Sully get refines before Frederick does. Not really fair to him when he's their superior.

Stahl and Sully have been garbage tier for the longest time (to the point where I think most people simply forget they exist), whereas Frederick is actually viable.

 

1 hour ago, Etheus said:

1. Hawkeye - One of the worst characters in the game, Hawkeye has been a poster boy for weapon refines from the start. And we need more viable axe wielders that aren't armor.

Hawkeye is literally the budget version of Helbindi or an infantry Sheena. The only thing bad about him is the fact that you have to rip out his entire skill set except for his weapon.

[Anacybele]

11 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Stahl and Sully have been garbage tier for the longest time (to the point where I think most people simply forget they exist), whereas Frederick is actually viable.

Hasn't stopped other non-garbage characters from getting them.

[Ice Dragon]

4 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Hasn't stopped other non-garbage characters from getting them.

But that doesn't make it unfair that a garbage character got a refine earlier than a non-garbage character. If anything, it's unfair that already-good characters are getting refines at all.

[Kaden]

42 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

If Faye's exclusive weapon isn't comparable to Guard Bow, it's going straight into the dumpster just like the Robins' weapons. There's zero point investing in Faye as anything other than a ranged wall.

If this happens, and this wouldn't be good for her, then her bow might be based on how her support with Alm worked in SoV. She was the only character who received a negative bonus, negative Avoid, when nearby one of her supports and since evasion doesn't exist in Heroes, it would probably mean her defense and resistance are going to tank so she gets more attack, speed, and possibly special charge. Speed is irrelevant to this Faye unlike in SoV where she can be fast or some future version of Faye we might get who has decent speed.

So, something like "If unit is within 2 spaces of support partner, inflicts Def/Res-5 to unit, grants unit Atk/Spd+5 and Special cooldown charge +1 per unit's attack (Only highest value applied. Does not stack), and grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+4 to that ally during combat" as a base effect or unique refinement.

On anyone else, that could work decently, but even then and on Faye, specifically, it's not that great to straight up terrible.

The best we can hope for is a personal Guard Bow with an -owl effect, 2 spaces, Def/Res version of Nifl Frostflowers, a Killer effect, no HP Guard effect, or them doubling down on with Distant Def, Bracing Stance, or even Close Guard.

And cue her getting a personal Firesweep Bow with Cancel Affinity.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Kaden

[Anacybele]

37 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

But that doesn't make it unfair that a garbage character got a refine earlier than a non-garbage character. If anything, it's unfair that already-good characters are getting refines at all.

It does to me if I feel there are good lore reasons that a character should get one before someone else.

Also, while Frederick isn't garbage, he's not high tier either, at least according to every tier list I've seen. He's just in the middle.

[Fabulously Olivier]

37 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

It does to me if I feel there are good lore reasons that a character should get one before someone else.

Also, while Frederick isn't garbage, he's not high tier either, at least according to every tier list I've seen. He's just in the middle.

There are no lore reasons or justifications for any ordering of weapon refines. They do try to do some lumping of related characters sometimes, but even that isn't consistent. Best as I can tell, it's random, and that makes it even more exciting. I like the idea that any eligible hero could receive a weapon at any time.

 

And my personal opinion is that every character (perhaps barring seasonals) is entitled to a prf. They don't have to all be amazing prfs, especially if that character is already good, mind you. But just because one character is better than an even worse character should not, in my opinion, bar them from a prf. Because frankly, where do you draw the line? Where should you draw the line? 

Edited May 1, 2019 by Etheus

[Zapp Branniglenn]

2 hours ago, Humanoid said:

So the upcoming change rounds off all the existing Ruby Sword users. Top 5 units to get refinements are easy then - the five remainingg gem weapon users in Azura, Oscar, Subaki, Arthur and Narcian. That'd then leave the door open for Silver weapons, though there are some tomes that probably need a look-at in between.

To be honest, I would actually prefer existing gem weapon users just get a better gem weapon. They're handy to have as color counters in AA, and I impulsively build units in conjunction with their personal weapon if they have one. I get that these weapon refinements are the only thing that can directly improve these old units, but it's just as likely they're saddled with something like Hinata's Katana which can't eeke out any advantage over an inheritable option unless you just enjoy Fury 6 memes which conflicts with a QR focused physical wall build.

[Roflolxp54]

Can't wait for the day Cordelia gets a unique Prf weapon along with refinery options; while her statline is great, Catria and Est have very strong Prf weapons.

Also, Stahl really needs to stop haunting me on red free summons.

[Azuni]

Pretty surprised to see Lukas get a prf, although I guess they have given already-great units prfs in the past (most notably Nino).
Sully and Stahl's prfs will have to be absolutely bonkers for me to see them worth building beyond their basic TA-breaker budget unit sets for AA.

[Anacybele]

2 hours ago, Etheus said:

There are no lore reasons or justifications for any ordering of weapon refines. They do try to do some lumping of related characters sometimes, but even that isn't consistent. Best as I can tell, it's random, and that makes it even more exciting. I like the idea that any eligible hero could receive a weapon at any time.

 

And my personal opinion is that every character (perhaps barring seasonals) is entitled to a prf. They don't have to all be amazing prfs, especially if that character is already good, mind you. But just because one character is better than an even worse character should not, in my opinion, bar them from a prf. Because frankly, where do you draw the line? Where should you draw the line? 

Well, I have a few bits of criteria for how I believe IS ought to decide who gets a prf/refine.

First and most importantly: who needs it most? Which characters are the lowest of the low in the meta?

Second, as I kinda mentioned before, would it be odd for one character to get one before a certain other one does for any other reason, whether it's story, the lineup of other units in mind (so you don't end up with all one or two colors or a bunch of the same weapon or something), or whatever? I feel it odd for Sully and Stahl to have their own prfs, but not their superior officer because of the relationship and pecking order here. It's typically the other way around, the commanders/leaders have unique weapons before anyone else.

Thirdly, which characters already have prfs, even if said prfs don't have refines? You might want to look at characters who don't have prfs before the ones that do.

And that's all I can say.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Anacybele

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Second, as I kinda mentioned before, would it be odd for one character to get one before a certain other one does for any other reason, whether it's story, the lineup of other units in mind (so you don't end up with all one or two colors or a bunch of the same weapon or something), or whatever? I feel it odd for Sully and Stahl to have their own prfs, but not their superior officer because of the relationship and pecking order here. It's typically the other way around, the commanders/leaders have unique weapons before anyone else.

Except that this clearly isn't the case.

Cherche has an exclusive weapon. Virion doesn't. Hana has an exclusive weapon. Sakura doesn't.

[Anacybele]

3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Except that this clearly isn't the case.

Cherche has an exclusive weapon. Virion doesn't. Hana has an exclusive weapon. Sakura doesn't.

It is most of the time. Cherche no longer really serves Virion, though I still find it odd that the latter has no refine. Sakura is a healer and it doesn't look like IS plans to give them prfs anytime soon.

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

It is most of the time. Cherche no longer really serves Virion, though I still find it odd that the latter has no refine. Sakura is a healer and it doesn't look like IS plans to give them prfs anytime soon.

Almost every case in those "most of the times" are cases where the higher-up has a canonical exclusive weapon. There are extremely few direct subordinate relationships that are represented in Heroes where the higher-up doesn't have a canonical exclusive weapon. This means that the reason that leaders get their exclusive weapons first are because they canonically have those weapons, not because they are the leaders for their subordinates.

Furthermore, I have found zero evidence that Frederick has a different relationship with Sully and Stahl than he has with any of the other non-leader members of the Shepherds. At the very least, none of the character bios I've read for these characters indicates anything of the sort.

 

Also, I'll add that female Corrin has no exclusive weapon, but Felicia does. And while Azura has no direct subordinates, she similarly has no exclusive weapon.

[Jave]

1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

It is most of the time. Cherche no longer really serves Virion, though I still find it odd that the latter has no refine. Sakura is a healer and it doesn't look like IS plans to give them prfs anytime soon.

For an example closer to the one you mentioned initially, Cain and Abel got refinements while Jagen did not. Similarly Felicia has a refinement while Jakob and Gunter do not.

[Tybrosion]

While I am happy for Lukas.....well, I'm just going to leave this here: 

Spoiler

:

So anyways, the other refines, sadly, aren't doing anything for me especially Faye's.

[Anacybele]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Almost every case in those "most of the times" are cases where the higher-up has a canonical exclusive weapon. There are extremely few direct subordinate relationships that are represented in Heroes where the higher-up doesn't have a canonical exclusive weapon. This means that the reason that leaders get their exclusive weapons first are because they canonically have those weapons, not because they are the leaders for their subordinates.

Furthermore, I have found zero evidence that Frederick has a different relationship with Sully and Stahl than he has with any of the other non-leader members of the Shepherds. At the very least, none of the character bios I've read for these characters indicates anything of the sort.

 

Also, I'll add that female Corrin has no exclusive weapon, but Felicia does. And while Azura has no direct subordinates, she similarly has no exclusive weapon.

I wasn't talking about anything in their bios, I simply meant that Frederick is their superior officer and more of a veteran fighter.

1 hour ago, Jave said:

For an example closer to the one you mentioned initially, Cain and Abel got refinements while Jagen did not. Similarly Felicia has a refinement while Jakob and Gunter do not.

Yeah, and I think those situations are odd too.

[Jave]

5 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yeah, and I think those situations are odd too.

Yeah, but that's really your own problem. It doesn't say anything about IntSys's doings.

[Interdimensional Observer]

55 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

While I am happy for Lukas.....well, I'm just going to leave this here: 

So you're saying you inherited a Seasonal summonable and thus very rare weapon on him at just the wrong time? A repeat of sorts of your Klein mistake, IIRC?

[daisy jane]

2 hours ago, Anacybele said:

It is most of the time. Cherche no longer really serves Virion, though I still find it odd that the latter has no refine. Sakura is a healer and it doesn't look like IS plans to give them prfs anytime soon.

 

this reminds me for my daily begging that Healers get Prfs. 
(starting with Serra and Elise, best girls). 

[Tybrosion]

12 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

So you're saying you inherited a Seasonal summonable and thus very rare weapon on him at just the wrong time? A repeat of sorts of your Klein mistake, IIRC?

No, the only picnic unit I've gotten so far is Leo.

The joke is that lance just is a refineable, 14 Mt Bright Naginata and in addition to that, original Lukas is getting his own prf that will be refineable. Or to put more simply and bluntly, Shiro is getting completely crapped on because I guess someone at IS hates him or something.