General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Diovani Bressan]

On 11/1/2019 at 6:25 PM, Ice Dragon said:

Ninian refine when?

Oracle's Dragonstone: 16 Mt. 1 Range. At start of turn, removes [Penalties] on allies within 2 spaces of unit. If foe is ranged, calculates damage using the lower of foe's Def or Res.

Unique Refine 1: (Fala's Might) +3 HP. If Sing or Dance is used, grants [Fala's Might] to target. [Fala's Might]: Unit deals +5 damage.
Unique Refine 2: (Tor's Wrath) +3 HP. If Sing or Dance is used, grants Special cooldown count -2 to target.
Unique Refine 3: (Sety's Prayer) +3 HP. If Sing or Dance is used, grants [Miracle] to target. [Miracle]: That bullshit thing Seliph has on his weapon.
Unique Refine 4: (Ninis's Grace) +3 HP. If Sing or Dance is used, grants [Ninis's Grace] to target. [Ninis's Grace]: Reduces damage dealt to unit by 5. Neutralizes "effective against" bonuses.

I know that you really like Ninian and want her to get a pretty good weapon, but aren't there refinements ideas... too much?

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

I know that you really like Ninian and want her to get a pretty good weapon, but aren't there refinements ideas... too much?

It's certainly not better than what Legendary Azura has (+5/6 to all stats and +1 Movement for infantry and fliers), and it also is roughly on par with Verdandi's +4 to all stats.

[Diovani Bressan]

12 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

It's certainly not better than what Legendary Azura has (+5/6 to all stats and +1 Movement for infantry and fliers), and it also is roughly on par with Verdandi's +4 to all stats.

Not only the base effect being a anti global debuffs, trying to make Ninian a solution against Aversa and alikes, but "grants Special cooldown count -2 to target", "Reduces damage dealt to unit by 5. Neutralizes "effective against" bonuses", "grants [Miracle] to target"... these ideas are too much!

"Fala's Might" (Unit deals +5 damage) could be Blaze Dance but stronger (+6 instead of +4 Atk), and "Ninis's Grace" (Reduces damage dealt to unit by 5) could be Geyser Dance but without the "Neutralizes "effective against" bonuses" effect. "Special cooldown count -2" and "Miracle" effect to target would make her a little too broken.

For me, with remove Penalties and Miracle Dance, she would be better than Azura.

Verdandi's effect would be a good refinement, and since she is a F2P unit it would help new players.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Diovani Bressan

[XRay]

On 11/1/2019 at 2:25 PM, Ice Dragon said:

Oracle's Dragonstone: 16 Mt. 1 Range. At start of turn, removes [Penalties] on allies within 2 spaces of unit. If foe is ranged, calculates damage using the lower of foe's Def or Res.

Unique Refine 1: (Fala's Might) +3 HP. If Sing or Dance is used, grants [Fala's Might] to target. [Fala's Might]: Unit deals +5 damage.
Unique Refine 2: (Tor's Wrath) +3 HP. If Sing or Dance is used, grants Special cooldown count -2 to target.
Unique Refine 3: (Sety's Prayer) +3 HP. If Sing or Dance is used, grants [Miracle] to target. [Miracle]: That bullshit thing Seliph has on his weapon.
Unique Refine 4: (Ninis's Grace) +3 HP. If Sing or Dance is used, grants [Ninis's Grace] to target. [Ninis's Grace]: Reduces damage dealt to unit by 5. Neutralizes "effective against" bonuses.

 

I think I can do one better, but I will do Olivia and Ylissean Travellers Olivia.

Redbull Gave Olivia Wings of No Mercy:
Unit can move to a space adjacent to any ally.

Refinement:
If Sing or Dance is used, grants another action to all non target allies on the team. (Does not affect an ally with Sing or Dance.)

1 hour ago, Diovani Bressan said:

but aren't there refinements ideas... too much?

Throwing game balance out the window is where the fun is at. You should try it. Once you hack, you cannot go back. Who needs balance anyways?

Edited November 3, 2019 by XRay

[Baldrick]

If we’re doing dancer refines, this is what I want.

Sylvia’s Defender Sword (available to Lene as well): If foe initiates combat, grants Def/Res+7 during combat.

Refine: If a skill like Sing or Dance  is used,  grants another action to all adjacent allies.

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

"Fala's Might" (Unit deals +5 damage) could be Blaze Dance but stronger (+6 instead of +4 Atk), and "Ninis's Grace" (Reduces damage dealt to unit by 5) could be Geyser Dance but without the "Neutralizes "effective against" bonuses" effect.

Both of those effects are utterly underwhelming. The entire problem with field buffs is the fact that every new unit and their mom has a way to cancel them, and every other new unit and their mom has a skill that gives them out, and field buffs cannot stack. Therefore, to make them worthwhile, they either have to buff a lot of points of stats, buff a lot of units at once, or use a cheap skill slot (for standalone skills). Or multiple of those.

Since Dance skills on a weapon cannot satisfy the second or third, they have to satisfy the first, and that's exactly what Verdandi and Prayer Wheel do.

The reason I made Fala's Might give +5 damage is because this is an effect that cannot be canceled out and stacks with field buffs, but has the drawback of not interacting with the weapon triangle, effective damage, or Atk comparisons. It's effectively the Wo Dao effect split across two hits instead of a single hit.

The reason I made Ninis's Grace give -5 damage is because this is an effect that isn't partially mitigated by things like Luna and stacks with field buffs, but also does not apply additional damage to Bonfire, etc. It's the same effect of Shield Pulse, but all the time. However, I didn't feel this was a sufficiently strong enough effect since it's similar to Geyser Dance, which is awful, so I added negation of effective damage because it would be an interesting effect to make use of and isn't absurdly overpowered. We already have enough things that provide Guard or Dull effects.

 

The main point is that Ninian and Nils's gimmick in Blazing Sword was their ability to buff allies in a game where no other unit had that ability (other than the Barrier staff and consumable Holy Water item). That's nothing special in Heroes where buffs are just a thing that literally everyone can do.

 

2 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

For me, with remove Penalties and Miracle Dance, she would be better than Azura.

So what number points would you consider the effects balanced? Miracle only at 90% HP or higher at the start of combat? Charge only 1 point of Special?

[XRay]

6 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Refine: If a skill like Sing or Dance  is used,  grants another action to all adjacent allies.

I like how you include Dancers/Singers.

[Ice Dragon]

10 minutes ago, XRay said:

I like how you include Dancers/Singers.

I'm pretty sure that was unintentional.

[Jotari]

Granting special cooldown +2 to any unit would be bonkers on maps where you need to aggro the enemy. You would be coming out the gate with all specials fully charged. Either that would make those maps too easy, or they'd need to be made with such a strategy in mind making it mandatory.

[Baldrick]

25 minutes ago, XRay said:

I like how you include Dancers/Singers.

In collaboration with Phina, Sylvia discovered the trick to dancing other dancers.

 

[Diovani Bressan]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Both of those effects are utterly underwhelming. The entire problem with field buffs is the fact that every new unit and their mom has a way to cancel them, and every other new unit and their mom has a skill that gives them out, and field buffs cannot stack. Therefore, to make them worthwhile, they either have to buff a lot of points of stats, buff a lot of units at once, or use a cheap skill slot (for standalone skills). Or multiple of those.

Since Dance skills on a weapon cannot satisfy the second or third, they have to satisfy the first, and that's exactly what Verdandi and Prayer Wheel do.

The reason I made Fala's Might give +5 damage is because this is an effect that cannot be canceled out and stacks with field buffs, but has the drawback of not interacting with the weapon triangle, effective damage, or Atk comparisons. It's effectively the Wo Dao effect split across two hits instead of a single hit.

The reason I made Ninis's Grace give -5 damage is because this is an effect that isn't partially mitigated by things like Luna and stacks with field buffs, but also does not apply additional damage to Bonfire, etc. It's the same effect of Shield Pulse, but all the time. However, I didn't feel this was a sufficiently strong enough effect since it's similar to Geyser Dance, which is awful, so I added negation of effective damage because it would be an interesting effect to make use of and isn't absurdly overpowered. We already have enough things that provide Guard or Dull effects.

 

The main point is that Ninian and Nils's gimmick in Blazing Sword was their ability to buff allies in a game where no other unit had that ability (other than the Barrier staff and consumable Holy Water item). That's nothing special in Heroes where buffs are just a thing that literally everyone can do.

 

So what number points would you consider the effects balanced? Miracle only at 90% HP or higher at the start of combat? Charge only 1 point of Special?

For Ninian to grant +5/-5 damage to an Ally and "nullify eff damage", IntSys would need to create a status effect that grants these effects, and I don't know if they would have this extra effort in doing it just for a refinement. They had this effort in creating a "eff agants dragos" effect, but it was for a Mythic Hero, they are more specials than a normal Hero like Ninian.

IntSys would need to create an status effect for Ninian because these effect would not appear from nowhere or be invisible without a symbol in the Ally, showing that he/she has this effect. Even L!Leif's penalty for Galeforce is just a Gravity status effect, that can be nullified with Harsh Command+ or Restore+, so they didn't create an status effect for him. Right now we don't have a status effect that do what you are proposing Ninian will do.

Sorry, I kinda forgot that Seliph's Miracle effect only works with HP iqual or above 50%, so for a dancer to grant it would not be that broken. Charge-1 would be more balanced, I think. We only have weapons that can grant Charge-2 at turn 1, and only Velouria can grant it to an Ally and it's her supportive ally and not an ally that she can choose, so be able to do it every single turn to an Ally that you can choose is not that balanced, so -1 would be more fair.

[Ice Dragon]

37 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

For Ninian to grant +5/-5 damage to an Ally and "nullify eff damage", IntSys would need to create a status effect that grants these effects, and I don't know if they would have this extra effort in doing it just for a refinement. They had this effort in creating a "eff agants dragos" effect, but it was for a Mythic Hero, they are more specials than a normal Hero like Ninian.

Brand new status effects are nothing new. Bride Lyn, Amelia, Maribelle, Halloween Mia, Bride Fjorm, Naga, and Legendary Eliwood all got brand new status effects when they were released. The Triangle Adept, Isolation, Effective Against Dragons, and Bonus Doubler status effects are still exclusive to a single skill or skill tree available from one unit only.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Ice Dragon

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

For Ninian to grant +5/-5 damage to an Ally and "nullify eff damage", IntSys would need to create a status effect that grants these effects, and I don't know if they would have this extra effort in doing it just for a refinement. They had this effort in creating a "eff agants dragos" effect, but it was for a Mythic Hero, they are more specials than a normal Hero like Ninian.

IntSys would need to create an status effect for Ninian because these effect would not appear from nowhere or be invisible without a symbol in the Ally, showing that he/she has this effect. Even L!Leif's penalty for Galeforce is just a Gravity status effect, that can be nullified with Harsh Command+ or Restore+, so they didn't create an status effect for him. Right now we don't have a status effect that do what you are proposing Ninian will do.

Sorry, I kinda forgot that Seliph's Miracle effect only works with HP iqual or above 50%, so for a dancer to grant it would not be that broken. Charge-1 would be more balanced, I think. We only have weapons that can grant Charge-2 at turn 1, and only Velouria can grant it to an Ally and it's her supportive ally and not an ally that she can choose, so be able to do it every single turn to an Ally that you can choose is not that balanced, so -1 would be more fair.

Ninan's refine being support based like Veloria's would suit her character and make use of a gimmick than only a single unit is utilizing right now. Maybe it could straight up rip off Veloria's -2 charge, or work it into her dancing. Like "If sing or dance is used and target ally is unit's support partner, grant atk/spd/def/res +6 and move+1 to target."

[Mercakete]

Hmmm... If M!Kana ever does get a Moon Dragonstone, it could really...turn the tide. (Joke on how the gravitational pull of the moon causes the shift in tides and also they're water dragons haaaaa-)

[Zapp Branniglenn]

My hope is that gen 1 units will still get weapons, it's just that they have to share slots with gen 2s. In other words, Kana is not signaling to us that it's 100% gen 2 time from here on out. I just want the Jagens to get some love. 

[Diovani Bressan]

3 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

My hope is that gen 1 units will still get weapons, it's just that they have to share slots with gen 2s. In other words, Kana is not signaling to us that it's 100% gen 2 time from here on out. I just want the Jagens to get some love. 

I believe this means that Book 2 will start to get prfs and refinements, but Book 1 will still get them as well. Maybe 1 or 2 Book 2 units, along side 2 or 3 Book 1 units can be a thing now.

[Ice Dragon]

13 hours ago, Jotari said:

Ninan's refine being support based like Veloria's would suit her character and make use of a gimmick than only a single unit is utilizing right now. Maybe it could straight up rip off Veloria's -2 charge, or work it into her dancing. Like "If sing or dance is used and target ally is unit's support partner, grant atk/spd/def/res +6 and move+1 to target."

That would seriously suck as an effect, giving it two very limiting factors: (1) that the unit receiving the effect must be her support partner and (2) that she actually has to target that unit on the map to give them that effect.

There are two other units in the game right now that have support-based effects: vanilla male Corrin and Velouria.

Corrin's effect works because the bonus to stats is a respectable +4 to all stats as combat buffs, which cannot be disabled, and does not require him to use his action in order to activate the effect, just proximity (which you'd be doing anyways due to the standard base support bonuses). The closest comparisons of this effect are to vanilla Marth, who has no support restriction, but only gives +2 to all stats, and Kaden, who also has no support restriction, but requires at least one other support unit on the team to help him acquire the buffs to power his effect (and he gets shut down by Panic).

Velouria's effect has one extremely important distinction to make. It gives her Quickened Pulse 2 regardless of if she has a support partner or not and regardless of if they are on the map. That alone already makes it an effect worth using as it's the same effect that Navarre and Sonya have on their weapon refines. The fact that her support partner also gets the effect is a bonus on top of that. "It works without a support partner and works better with a support partner" rather than "It doesn't work without a support partner and it works with a support partner".

[Diovani Bressan]

14 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

That would seriously suck as an effect, giving it two very limiting factors: (1) that the unit receiving the effect must be her support partner and (2) that she actually has to target that unit on the map to give them that effect.

Not only that, but the effect that @Jotari described only works in player's control, since there is not Ally Support in CPU's control, so Ninian's refinement would be useless in a AR defensive team.

[mampfoid]

New refines:

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not bad, won't make me build any of those though. 

[Vicious Sal]

Subaki: An improvement to his own performance, but still not going to give him a clear edge anywhere. Other lance fliers will still be able to do a better job.

 

Gordin: Shame he is only a PP archer. If this effect would work op EP, he’d be a great Cc vantage archer. This will not improve him all that much.

 

Kana: Fantastic refine, extra stats on EP, possible extra stats on PP, lull skills are great, super good tank. Shame she’s 5* locked so not easily merged, which lowers her effectiveness.

 

Athena: Hmmm, not a big fan, PP sword units are a dime a dozen, not bad, and she will have a niche in being able to use NFU or special spiral etc, but not incredible. Though being sort of discount Mareeta isn’t bad per se.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Concealed blade sounds pretty good. Although sword infantry need to be fantastic and Athena isn't winning any awards with her 31 base attack stat. Subaki is Selena's but with straight damage near full health over the wo dao effect. Gordin's is okay. I think Klein's eekes out a victory in usefulness because Chill Def is great in the hands of the player knocking out enemies one at a time, and +3 speed helps him feasibly quad some enemies while Gordin's is merely packing an extra point of MT.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Glennstavos

[Hilda]

Subakis refine looks good. Makes use of his Spd asset and tries to fix his Attack with true damage.

F!Kana can be a really good tank with high investment. She gains 7 in combat bulk on both sides of the end and shuts down oponnent attack/spd buffs. Can become even more tank and threating once Lull Atk/Res is released or stack up another Atk/Spd if you want.
Still susceptible to AoE nukes.
She might miss the mark on some kills due to her low Attack.

The rest is meh

[Zeo]

Disappointing batch.

Subaki's is interesting but not quite enough to set him apart and make him worth using over other options. Merely an adequate and somewhat fun option if you like him.

F!Kana's is actually pretty good if a bit situational, but she's *5 locked and easily accessible green dragons will outperform her, as will other *5 dragons such as M!Grima or Nagi.

Gordin's is just a worse Argent with more limited utility. Klein is 100% a better option if you're going for a Brave Bow refine.

Athena's is the most disappointing. She in a nutshell becomes better Lyn. She's not bad per se, but she does nothing to stand out. No slaying effect means she can't take advantage of Galeforce strats and while her statline is decent and she frees up her B slot for other things, there are still tons of other units that can do her job and better. She can become an inferior variant of Mareeta but that's not saying much. She's gone from 100% obsolete to Meh and in the process made OG Lyn 100% obsolete. If her sword had given her the Forseti effect instead of Desperation it would have been amazing. Big let down.

Lyn needs a new refine now. Or... the Mani Katti. The first few batches of refines are really outdated now. Especially Lyn and Jaffars. There's no reason to revisit those units at this point. I'm still going to +10 OG Lyn because she's my favorite unit but I'm seriously upset by Athena's refine on the principle of power creep alone.

[Baldrick]

Considering Gordin and Athena's mediocre refines, Subaki dodged a major bullet. Slaying is good, the low-attack effect is good, and the refine effect gives him a bonus 14 damage as long as QR activates.

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Vicious Sal said:

Gordin: Shame he is only a PP archer. If this effect would work op EP, he’d be a great Cc vantage archer. This will not improve him all that much.

Even with a Meister Weapon, Gordin's Atk is not high enough to make effective use Counter-Vantage.

Even with an effective 13 Mt Weapon, Gordin (47=34+9+4) still has:
2 less Atk than WOT!Reinhardt (49=38+11)
4 less than UOT!Leif (51=42+9)
7 less than Keaton (54=45+9)

On 11/1/2019 at 2:35 PM, XRay said:

Unless they also fix Gordin's abysmal Atk, I do not think he is that great with Counter-Vantage even with Meister effect. World of Thracia Reinhardt is already very shaky as  Counter-Vantage unit, as he has 5 less Atk (49=38+11) than Keaton (54=45+9), and Gordin's Atk is even lower (43=34+9; assuming his Weapon Mt is 9, tying with Meisterbogen and Vafþrúðnir).

 

Edited November 6, 2019 by XRay