Kirby Mafia - Game Over

[Sunwoo]

Just realized that I misread your last sentence. Fuck. Ignore that part.

However, I still don't know why you think I'm scum and what makes me so "forgettable".

[scorri]

Boron: I think what Cam is trying to say is that he doesn't view you as scum, but he also doesn't believe that Kay's pushing of you makes her scum either. People can have wrong views. For instance, I was clearly wrong about Jalmont yesterday. Does that make me scum? Just because she finds you scummy doesn't make her scummy per say, even if some of her reasoning isn't great.

[CT075]

Also I think Paperblade/SB/Boron are obvtown

Almost Absolutely Positively Town

Sangyul

itt high ranking townreads

there weren't as many as i thought just from skimming but i'm decently sure that there are very few people who would back your lynch

[CT075]

and cut by scorri being way more coherent than i am today

gg me

[CT075]

However, I still don't know why you think I'm scum and what makes me so "forgettable".

i don't think you're scum

i don't think you're particularly obvtown but i have no reason to believe you're scum for now; i only brought up you being forgettable once, early in the game, and you'll notice that i've dropped it

actually the fact taht you keep focusing on it makes me feel like you're being kind of self conscious

[Prims]

Day 2.2 - Votals

Kay (3): kirsche, Boron, Shin

Boron (1): Kay

Refa (1): BBM

Not Voting (7): CT075, Grassbridger, Objection, Paperblade, Refa, scorri, Shinori

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. You have about 67 hours and 15 minutes left in the day.

[Sunwoo]

i don't think you're scum

i don't think you're particularly obvtown but i have no reason to believe you're scum for now; i only brought up you being forgettable once, early in the game, and you'll notice that i've dropped it

actually the fact taht you keep focusing on it makes me feel like you're being kind of self conscious

I keep focusing on it and bringing it up because it pisses me off. You did this in Touhou mafia as well (where I was admittedly SK, but I still say I was far from forgettable). It's incredibly frustrating to be putting in as much effort as you are able to and trying your best to contribute stuff, only to be called "forgettable". Especially if it's by the same person, and who is arguably MORE forgettable than you. Like, INCREDIBLY annoying.

[CT075]

and if you've been reading my posts you'll notice (again) that i've since dropped it after the single mention

[Sunwoo]

You mentioned I was forgettable in D1, but you didn't really talk about me afterwards until this phase. You never even mentioned me after that "wouldn't be opposed to lynch to cull the silence" comment until criticizing my vote on Kay. How on Earth was I supposed to know if you had ceded your point on me being forgettable?

[CT075]

fine

i tend to call things as i see them, and if i'd still felt that way i probably wouldn't have let it drop

boron if you're feeling upset over some unrelated reason you can message me on skype if you want to talk

[Sunwoo]

fine

i tend to call things as i see them, and if i'd still felt that way i probably wouldn't have let it drop

I assume that if someone hasn't stated that their thoughts on me have changed or given a new recent opinion on me, then what they had last said of me is still valid.

BBM, I see you there. Do you have anything to say?

[BBM]

Sorry, I was afk with the thread open. I'm conflicted on Cam. Something about his tone feels town but I'm not particularly impressed with his content. It's not bad exactly, it's just that I've disagreed with most of what he's said so far.

I think Refa and Kay are scum. I can sort of see Cam's point about how Kay persisting with an unpopular opinion even while getting flak for it is a towntell, but since I'm way too impatient to wait for Objection to show up, I might as well point out that she and Objection are the only people who possess public roles capable of causing Shinori to not be able to go through the jail- one through action and the other through inaction. And I think Kay is more likely to be scum than Objection.

[CT075]

there is a third reason that i can think of but i'm not going to out it unless i have to because it involves role information that i'd rather not reveal yet (or rather, i'd prefer to fully work out the implications of my results for myself before i make any false statements_

[Sunwoo]

I don't know how, but I somehow missed this post here.

Boron: I think what Cam is trying to say is that he doesn't view you as scum, but he also doesn't believe that Kay's pushing of you makes her scum either. People can have wrong views. For instance, I was clearly wrong about Jalmont yesterday. Does that make me scum? Just because she finds you scummy doesn't make her scummy per say, even if some of her reasoning isn't great.

I understand that people will often have wrong views, especially in the early phases, and that this doesn't make them scum. But I have already explained that I wasn't voting for Kay because she found me scummy, but because of the way she was trying to argue why I was scummy. I mean, I totally understand that people aren't going to agree with my reasonings, but that doesn't mean that they can't at least see where I'm coming from, or that it makes my vote "bad".

[Paperblade]

##Vote: Refa

I don't think you ever answered the case on you from N1

[Kay]

Okay, I'm not sure I can really stay calm about this so I should really just post anyway and I'm sorry but if I'm being a jerk people will just have to deal with it or I'll sub out or I don't even know.

##Vote: Kay

This isn't the sort of thing you forget when you're trying to hide your presence. Scum have a habit of thinking these sorts of things through thoroughly, almost too much, which is how they seem overly conscious a lot so if Boron was trying to make a convincing effort to act like she was busy she'd remember to stay away from those things.

This vote is disgustingly terrible. I think I made it fairly clear that I was speaking from personal experience so yeah, I don't think you really have a point, and either way, so what? That makes Boron town because she did something that would have been less than ideal as scum? I don't think so. And, is there a reason you think I'm scum besides underestimating Boron's lurking skills?

Second, way to take your time responding Kay.

Dude, there's no need to get so snippy with me. But seriously, if I were really trying to pretend that I was not online but logged into Skype or IRC or made a post elsewhere in SF anyway, then I have to be like incredibly stupid. I know people don't play optimally, but this is like ... common sense.

While I completely understand not letting go of someone you think is scummy the moment they do something remotely town-like, I feel like you're twisting everything I've already said to fit your case. Also, "how you seemed to be misrepping him." HOW YOU SEEMED. I've said this in Masquerade as England and I'll say it again. While misrepping on purpose is scummy, one can misrep on accident because you don't understand what the person is trying to say. And that in itself isn't scummy.

Also, your comment on what I said about Weapons is a bit unfair. I thought both Weapons and Jalmont needed to contribute at the beginning of the game, when neither were. That "Weapons is less scummily useful" Jalmont is a very taken-out-of-the-context summary of this post. Unless you're going to tell me that I'm wrong because I thought what Jalmont was doing at the time was worse than what Weapons was doing at the time, I think this was a fair enough statement at the time. (Let's also not forget who defended Weapons' not-doing-anythingness.)

Before phase end, I voted Weapons over Jalmont because after I thought on it I decided that what Jalmont was doing wasn't scummy just because I didn't understand it, and that Weapons was continuing to not contribute and hadn't contributed the ENTIRE phase, and I thought that WAS scummy.

##Vote: Kay

Is my "misrep" of Jalmont the only reason you think I'm scum? Is my giving Shin macho insomniac such an untownish thing to do that it's the only role assignment you take issue with? Do you have any other reads besides me? Why are you allowed to defend Weapons and explain it off with "it was a mistake, I thought he was town" but I'm ~fucking scum~ because I misrepped Jalmont by not understanding what he was saying? I also don't like how you say stuff like, "this isn't unreasonable for town but ..." or "if you were mafia you could've done better but it doesn't make your actions unreasonable". It's like you're trying to "cover your bases", admitting that while town can also do this thing you're accusing me of you still think it's scum!me doing it.

Aside from Kay, I am also suspicious of Objection. If I recall correctly, he never actually answered me about what conclusions he had drawn from his "reaction test". Also, if he's scum then it would make sense why Shinori's action failed.

Yeah in case it wasn't clear, I took a while responding because I was upset by your post, and I didn't want to let that show and cause any kind of non-gameplay disagreement. Yes, I'm aware that I failed. Just telling you why I did it.

I probably sounded snippy because yeah, I was offended by your "how stupid do you think I am" comment. Like I said, I've made that mistake before, so if you're that offended by me suggesting it, you're kinda indirectly insulting me. Plus I was just upset that you got offended over a random theory. Anyway, I get the point, I'm the only one who's stupid enough to do that, so I'll drop that argument because eh, I've made my point, so we may as well assume you did nothing to reveal that you were online.

Yes, a lot of things are scummy when they're done on purpose but not if they're accidental. It's scummy to lynch a townie on purpose. It's scummy to shoot the Cop on purpose. It's scummy to focus on not looking scummy on purpose. It's scummy to use bad logic on purpose. Do we ignore all these things because confused townies do them too? No. So no, I'm not going to buy the "misrepping isn't scummy if it's accidental" thing because lol we have no idea whether it's intentional or not.

And I've said before I'm suspicious of Refa. He's just done absolutely nothing since then so I had no reason to repeat my opinion of him.

what the literal freaking heck Boron, you yell at me that townies can do scummy stuff and then yell at me for admitting that townies can do scummy stuff?

Kay's attack on Boron seems a little more personal than actually game related, so mean! A lot of her reasoning is about ridiculous silly meta. It seems ridiculous for anyone to go to those lengths, and just as ridiculous that someone would suggest that.

I really don't recall using any meta. Mind letting me know specifically what you're referring to?

Well, that's because typically, if you make a reaction test like that, you're supposed to do something with the results. He said he wanted to end RVS and get reactions. Well, ok, that's all well and good, but unless you do something with said reactions, you're just acting scummy for no good reason. This is the reason I don't like reaction tests like this. People do something scummy (maybe planned, maybe not) and then claim it was to get reactions. Well, ok, but then do something with that. Analyze the reactions. Who reacted well, who reacted scumily (auto correct wanted that to be scurvily which is clearly a much better word)? Otherwise you're just acting scummy and then not doing anything with it and wasting time.

Admittedly, it did get us out of RVS successfully, which I suspect was the main reason for it.

I might as well point out that she and Objection are the only people who possess public roles capable of causing Shinori to not be able to go through the jail- one through action and the other through inaction. And I think Kay is more likely to be scum than Objection.

Regarding this, I did target Shinori and Boron, because the cop targeting the miller would be pointless anyway, and I didn't think Shinori would choose to protect Boron. Godfather is a pretty good role, so if Boron's role switches alignment shown to cops, making it either Godfather or Miller, I doubted she would have a secondary ability. So since I didn't want to mess up anything important, I figured I'd do that to protect Shinori in case something went wrong with him being jailed.

[Sunwoo]

I probably sounded snippy because yeah, I was offended by your "how stupid do you think I am" comment. Like I said, I've made that mistake before, so if you're that offended by me suggesting it, you're kinda indirectly insulting me. Plus I was just upset that you got offended over a random theory. Anyway, I get the point, I'm the only one who's stupid enough to do that, so I'll drop that argument because eh, I've made my point, so we may as well assume you did nothing to reveal that you were online.

If it wasn't clear, I wasn't calling you or anyone else stupid nor was it meant to offend and I'm sorry that it did. But I honestly did feel that you were grasping with that point and making a LOT of unwelcome assumptions about my mindset. Either way, the whole "I would avoid being seen online if I were trying to pretend I was offline" thing is moot because if I really wanted to not show up to deadline I would've just stayed in bed and not touched a laptop in the first place.

Also, I HAVE made the mistake of being logged onto Skype when I didn't want to be noticed in mafia. It's called D1 of Pokemon Adventures.

Yes, a lot of things are scummy when they're done on purpose but not if they're accidental. It's scummy to lynch a townie on purpose. It's scummy to shoot the Cop on purpose. It's scummy to focus on not looking scummy on purpose. It's scummy to use bad logic on purpose. Do we ignore all these things because confused townies do them too? No. So no, I'm not going to buy the "misrepping isn't scummy if it's accidental" thing because lol we have no idea whether it's intentional or not.

And I've said before I'm suspicious of Refa. He's just done absolutely nothing since then so I had no reason to repeat my opinion of him.

And I'm not saying you should simply believe me because I say that the misrep was unintentional. But it appeared as if you were not even considering the possibility that it could have been unintentional and just dismissing it because "oh it must have been on purpose". You should not ignore scummy things because they might have been done on accident. But unless I am mistaken this is apparently THE reason you are suspicious of me and I am your strongest scum read, and I wish you'd find something besides the Jalmont misrep that makes me your top scum read. Like, you're suspicious of Refa. Is my apparent misrep just THAT MUCH WORSE than whatever he's (not) doing?

what the literal freaking heck Boron, you yell at me that townies can do scummy stuff and then yell at me for admitting that townies can do scummy stuff?

If I'm understanding which part of my post you're referring to here, then I'm "yelling at you" because it feels like you're saying that although town can do scummy stuff, I must certainly be scum and not one of those "town doing scummy stuff" and I'd like to know on what basis I am actually scum doing scummy stuff instead of town doing scummy stuff.

[Shin]

If momentarily forgetting that you're pretending to be offline makes you stupid then I have no right to be pointing fingers, so don't worry, I will most certainly never question your intelligence.

You're plenty allowed to change your mind, I just am not going to ignore your having acted scummy just because you changed your mind. And, I think I've explained that it was because of how you seemed to be misrepping him. Everyone else who thought he was confusing and scummy after he started posted reads just said something along the lines of "that was unnecessarily long and commit to your reads more kthxbai". Not trying to define his posts as nothing but an explanation of how NOC works.

1. "If I was scum I'd do this thing instead" is an argument I mostly see used by scum.

2. People would know you were online if you logged into Skype or IRC or anything, regardless of SF, and it's entirely possible that you did something like that out of habit and then figured you had better post.

3. This assumes optimal play on your part, how do I know it didn't just not occur to you until now?

To put it more simply, yes, as mafia you could have done something probably better, but that doesn't mean your actions were that unreasonable for mafia. And I'll have to reread but I'm not sure at that point whether you'd have been able to feel confident that your vote would make that much difference, so it wouldn't be ridiculous to vote Weapons for towncred even if you had thought of that plan already.

also Grassbridger's obsession with BBM's choice of words is silly.

The first post is a little unpleasant, whilst the latter, especially point 2, is pretty poor logic. Whilst there is some train of thought, Kay's looking way too hard into silly things like Boron pretending to be offline. I'd appreciate if Cam shared these "obvious reasons", it's very easy to say something's bad and then never back it up.

Grass, any reasons why you don't like the Kay "wagon"? I've seen pretty poor logic, rapidly shifting opinions and major tunnelling from Kay, what's your angle?

[The Objection!]

I'm so sorry, I empowered the vig instead. I don't have any excuses, this is a major overlook on my part. I'll make sure not to repeat this and cause a big problem for everyone.

I'll have to get going in 2 hours but I'll see if I can get a post rolling by then.

[Paperblade]

...

I literally told you to empower Shinori

[Paperblade]

The Kay wagon is dumb because Shin's vote seems to be based on him thinking Kay is voting Boron for personal reasons (???), and I think Boron is taking Kay's argument way out of scope.

Trufax: When I was rereading I thought Boron was scummy up until she helped secure the Weapons lynch.

I think Shin is either town or Objection is his scumbuddy and they collectively failed reading. However, I think if they were making plans based on me not being a Dayvig I think Prims would've said something?

scorri needs to do something ever beyond push jal "Obvtown" mont, please give me a reason to keep you alive beyond your role. Why do you think Refa is town? Do you have a negative read on anyone other than Objection?

[Paperblade]

Shinori needs to post more, your Weapons vote was nice and all but that's all you've done.

[The Objection!]

@Paper: That's why I said it was a major overlook.

@Boron and everyone else wondering: What do I have to do to convince you that I was not reaction testing? It was a test, not a reaction test. If you had any better idea for ending RVS, you should've done it before I did it.

With Jalmont and SB flipping town, I'll give my updated reads.

Town

Kirsche

Objection! (me)

Null

CT075 - Fair enough, his posts aren't that bad.

Kay - posts are a bit weird but she doesn't look 'extremely scummy, lynch immediately' to me, so I'll wait a bit longer before deciding my opinions on the wagon.

Anyone not mentioned on this list

Mildly Scummy or more

Shinori - This could go to the 'or more' part. Starting from his reaction to my 'test' and an easy vote-switch to weapons. Focusing on BBM then dropping the case entirely for no good reason. And continuing to avoid my question. Would like to hear some responses here!

##Vote: Shinori I don't have much time, will get more later, sorry.

[Paperblade]

Give me a good reason to not shoot you

[Sunwoo]

I'm going to have to sleep soon, but before I do here are some thoughts.

Shin seems like he's not really reading things all the way through or he's not really understanding them. I mean ... a lot of what he says looks pretty bad, but Shin doesn't seem to play differently according to alignment. At the moment my opinion on him is literally "it's Shin" and I can't make a decision on him either way.

Refa hasn't posted anything yet, has he? I know he's not too busy to post, so I'm concerned that his silence may be strategic. I will need to reread his posts when it's not 4 am, but I don't remember being very satisfied with his contributions.

Objection, I can't say I'm too pleased with you. Even if you weren't doing a reaction test, you literally don't have anything to say about how people reacted to your test? You may have gotten us out of RVS, but you could have used the reactions you had got to form reads. Promoting discussion is good. But you seemed to promote discussion and escape contributing directly to said discussion yourself.

Not a big fan of the list posts you're making either, especially the fact that in your most previous post you list practically the entire game as a null read and the only person you listed as scum is Shinori. I can accept that maybe you derped and forgot to empower Shinori, but I'm not exactly with the fuckton of null reads and your only scum read being Shinori. Surely you must have some opinion on the rest of us besides null?

##Unvote

##Vote: Objection