Rewjeo

IIRC, FE12 has more characters than RD and that didn't stop all but 4 (?) who happened to join in the very last chapter from having support conversations that are actually conversations. I accepted that excuse before, but IS has shown that they can do it.

Wow, your finals last a long time. Mine were just a week. Archers in general got nerfed? That's too bad. From what I saw they didn't seem overpowered, so nerfing them seems sort of random and pointless.

I enjoy PoP, but I've yet to actually get that new comp so I have some troubles running it currently... Yes, my computer sucks so much that I have troubles running Mount&Blade. Either it literally takes 10 minutes or more to load the world map (lol512MB RAM) or the maximum estimated performance I can reach is 70%. 54% in WFaS

So, how soon do you expect you will be able to continue?

I was texting my friend and my phone autocorrected something to Sigurd. I fucking love my phone now. No one spoil this for me by pointing out that Sigurd is more than just a Fire Emblem character.

I meant rescue as in save, not as in the action. I'm obviously not saying this just so that I'm not wrong.

I meant that other people were saying those units deserved to be in the same tier, and you were saying otherwise. I was asking them to explain why they should be in the same tier as him and asking you why they shouldn't. Sorry for the misunderstanding. And for the record, I have the exact same stance as you on this matter. There's a lot of stuff flying around other than this Eirika/Franz/Top Tier stuff, so I'll add a "Current Discussions" thing to the first post in which I will have all unfinished debates. It'll probably be a pretty substantial list right now...

Why? Why is Eph. Ephraim nearly as good as (or as good as) Franz? Why is Vanessa nearly as good as Franz? Why is Eph. Duessel nearly as good as him? Why is Eir. Duessel nearly as good as him? Why is this not true, Anouleth? WoMC and I are at least working out what he contributes, but no one has really compared what anyone else contributes. @WoMC How is Eirika getting that far that quickly without critting? She doesn't exactly ORKO enemies, and if she's moving instead of attacking, we're getting her surrounded by enemies who 2HKO her. If Eirika misses one SPD proc she can face problems. Not as often as she doesn't have a problem, but it's there. I didn't record the playthroughs, but I can say that Franz saved me a turn in chapter 2. Except that Franz+Eirika kills an enemy in as many rounds as Eirika+Franz. I had Franz get a level in 1, two levels in 2, and another level in 3. It's called choosing to let him kill when it doesn't make a difference. Well, the other thing here is to use both Franz and Garcia to speed things up and make it more reliable- Garcia's hit is a little shaky. Franz is level 5 going into chapter 4. He's clearing stuff out around the bottom. Chapter 5 his durability is helpful, he can double quite a bit, and we could maybe have him grab the boss kill if he can use the armorslayer. Chapter 6 we've got the whole path to the boss. I think you could get him there. Close, but the more EXP he gets, the easier it is to get him EXP. Thank you for that. I was not aware that we had them here on SF.

How? People praise it. I don't feel it deserves that it deserves all of the praise it gets. Therefor, it is overrated in my opinion. That's the same reason say FE4 gets votes- people don't think it's as good as all the praise it gets. Or is there an objective way to judge how good a game is compared to the praise it gets? In which case voting is pointless.

I didn't mean by chapter 5. But that IS the question. Either way, both need to drop. Ah, so that's why my 10AS Eirika at level 4 failed to double some of the brigands in chapter 2 and I had to be careful with what I had Gilliam do because he was doubled by some enemies. He can do it eventually. Because Franz cannot attack walls and does not take only two hits to knock them down just like Garcia. Now, Garcia IS more flexible as to who he can go with to knock down a wall, but Franz can do it, too. Further, I'm pretty sure that Franz can save a turn here, just like he saves anywhere from 2-5 turns between chapters 1&2. If he kills an enemy, Eirika can move farther. But we'll see when I test chapter 3 w/out Franz. Your wife dies of cancer. You marry someone else. She has taken the role of wife. Did she replace your first wife? So far, that isn't true. Shit happens when we rely on just Eirika to tank. It can't when we have Franz tank. And how on earth does Franz SLOW HER DOWN? Which is why I mentioned her maybe moving into Top with Franz depending on chapters 9-16. I've had no trouble getting him to level 5. Yes, you do have to give him higher priority than Eirika, but that means that when they both only need one round to finish of an enemy, you let Franz do it. Get the mogalls to go after someone else, then. Unless Franz does ORKO the boss. In which case, favoring him is saving us turns... Yeah, that's a bad idea. I assume you have enemy stats? If so, please link. Given that he's possibly saved us 5 turns in the first two chapters if you're horribly unlucky, and 2 turns unless you get ridiculously lucky, I'd say you exaggerate. Well, I feel like I've been making some pretty obvious mistakes, so...

Well, you have to rescue Ross, and it doesn't take any extra turns to drop+talk to him. But yes, I avoid recruiting Garcia in-chapter and he joins.

I did chapter 1 8 times last night. I had her at 12 SPD once, 11 SPD twice, 10 SPD twice, and 9 SPD thrice at the end. Her level varied from three to five at the end. That's 3/8 of the time that she couldn't double. Yeah, PEMN, but if it happened that often and I remember it happening in the past, I think that it can happen often enough for it to be mentioned. I also realized that Eirika is sorta huge for chapter 1, what with being the only one who can kill the boss. I do think that I either misremembered my earlier playthroughs, or I've just gotten way better at FE over the last three months of not playing FE. But I still believe that Franz is good enough to have a tier gap between him and Vanessa/Duessel. Although I could see Eirika in Top on her route now with him. The big question is her performance from 9-16. Edit: First attempt had 7 turns with Franz, 10 turns w/out Franz because the boss and one of his lackeys targeted Garcia and I had to ship Eirika over there. I think, though, that if Garcia had moved differently I could have shaved two turns off of that. Ultimately, though, it's luck based. After all, with luck I could get a 6 turn or even a 5 turn with a lot of luck. Assuming I'm getting the timing right for the reinforcements.

The basis behind your opinion is that he isn't an invincible ORKO unit from the get-go. That is not the point of this tier list. The proof would be that Duessel and Vanessa both save a comparable number of turns reliably. If Franz saves us 12 more turns than them, and saving turns is the goal of this list, then I think it's safe to say that there should be a tier gap to represent the disparity between how much the contribute to minimizing turns. It is still opinion since there are no specific rules as to what deserves a tier gap and what doesn't, but if there's such a significant lead... And the opposite is true. If Franz only saves one more turn than Duessel, although still opinion, I think it would be safe to say that there would be no tier gap. So, I managed to consistently 6 turn Chapter 1 without Franz despite it requiring luck. Whatever, I'll accept that. So far, Franz has saved 1 turn over the course of 1 chapter. Tomorrow I'll try to at least go through chapter 5. Hopefully I can get to the route split.

If Eirika doesn't get that speed proc, she's sitting at 9 SPD against 6-7 SPD enemies. I've had her fail to double multiple times, and fairly often she hits 10 AS during chapter 2. Just ran through chapter 1 with Franz and without. With Franz, 5 turns. Without I got 8 turns the first time and then actually managed to get 5... in which Eirika dodged five the six times she got attacked and scored four critical hits, including one that KOd the boss. Had this not happened, there was a ~70% chance she would have died, not to mention the many times she survived by dodging a whole lot of attacks. She also got an early SPD proc and so doubled everything when that won't always happen. But I don't know that that is all that reliable, what with several 13/14% crits and dodging a whole lot of hits in the 50s and 70s. My run with Franz involved one crit and dodging a much more reasonable number of attacks. I am sure that I can cut down on that 8 turn without demanding luck, though. That said, it looks to me like Franz saves more than one turn there. I'll work on that tonight, then tomorrow I'll continue on with the game. WoMC, if you're so inclined, you can do vanilla and then Eirikaless. I must say, having never fully committed myself to a very low-turn Sethless run of this game, I'm excited.

I mentioned those. Healers. I was working on English final stuff and my teacher likes it when I use random metaphors, so that's where that came from. Lute has 1 more base MT. I recall them both 3HOing stuff, but Artur doubling means he 2RKOs, making it easier for others to finish enemies or for Artur to finish someone weakened from enemy phase. Guess what? Eirika isn't necessarily doubling, either. 9 base SPD against 6-7 SPD enemies. That said, I started up another Sethless game after this post, and yes, her offense is slightly better for 2RKOing some enemies that he doesn't. I'm not saying he IS Seth, I'm saying he's the closest thing we have. He's taking Seth's role. He IS durable enough to go ahead. Not durable enough to barrel ahead alone and never ever die, but he's certainly more durable than miss-2HKOd-by-everything. I'd rather KNOW that my strategy will work than hope. In fact, that's part of the goal of the list: a strategy that is fast and reliable. Chapter 2 I don't bother to recruit Garcia so he can deal with the archer and I don't end up in a cluster around that fort. Chapter 3, Garcia knocks down walls, great. Why? So that I can put Franz through the hole since he can reach enemies better and handles them well. I could also have Franz attack walls. And his MOV does matter. It's not putting him way ahead, but he is ending up farther ahead and can reach enemies sooner. What happens in chapter 4? I never said he REPLACES Seth, I said that he TAKES ON HIS ROLE. They're different. What I think is happening is that I'm letting Franz take EXP while you're letting Eirika take EXP. It is my opinion that Franz makes better use as he has more MOV and access to 1-2 range. I can test this. Cool. I feel like it's more than that, but I haven't tried, so whatever. So Eirika's surrounded by brigands who 2HKO her and we hope that she doubles enough and gets some crits and doesn't get hit? We also have less offensive power on player phase. I doubt again that he makes no difference. Oh, right, because Eirika is flimsy and might have slightly better offense and Garcia can attack walls. Awesome. So we agree on the strategy for everywhere except the south. Because guess what? Franz gets there faster. And ORKOs basically everything as well if we haven't been handing Eirika kills. He isn't Seth, yeah. I had I think at 8/0 Franz here, so depending on Franz's luck with his SPD the offense could change. But yes, I did exaggerate with how good Franz's offense is at first. And I think we want that guiding ring. But the site says that the villages must just be intact. I had thought that they had to be visited. Okay. Again, I don't feel that Eirika deserves to be used over Franz. This chapter is a good example of why. Franz isn't bumrushing the boss from turn 1, but after the starting area is cleared out some, Franz can rush and take out the boss. Certainly faster than Josh and his clearing power can. I don't recall Josh being all that super awesome here, either, but I have only just started another Sethless run and didn't have much time when I started and only got to chapter 3. Well you seem to be suggesting like two to four turns. I think it's between our exaggerations. I don't remember my turncounts. But I won't claim to be the best FE player out there. I haven't debated in a long time. Can you tell? Should we start a thread for comparing early game turncounts and strategies, or shall we clutter this thread with that stuff?

Well, we have to gauge units based on their impact on our turncount, no? I demonstrating what he does for us earlygame. Or are we just not giving him credit for his contributions? Vanessa has awful combat in chapter 2 and 3 (and I mean AWFUL) and I doubt that there's an efficient way of getting her enough EXP in chapter four to make her good at fighting. I mean, even if she gets three level ups, she's pulling 13 MT/10 AS with an iron lance and 10 MT/13 AS with a slim lance. And I'll remind you that enemies are hitting 7 AS in chapter 2, and this is now chapter 5. She either has issues doubling and still probably like 3-4HKOs or doubles just fine but like 4-5HKOs. And 18.5 HP with 6.6 DEF isn't too durable, either. Best case scenario, she is 3HKOd by 14 MT, which I expect some enemies, especially axers, reach. Worst case scenario, she's 3HKOd by 12 MT and 2HKOd by 15 MT. I don't have enemy stats, so I can't say anything for certain, but those are numbers I'm not too comfortable with. How much are those doing for Duessel, though? Is Franz having problems surviving or ORKOing? For Vanessa, there's not all that much use for flying early on. Rescuing Ross in chapter 2, getting Lute in chapter 4 (if she's worth getting), getting a village in chapter 2 and 5- one of which is just a pure water, not too terribly useful, and maybe saving the villagers in chapter 6, depending on whether or not she can handle the enemies and if the Orion's Bolt is worth that much. Chapter 7 is big enough that someone might want to be ferried. Then Tana shows up and Vanessa doesn't get full credit for flight anymore- in Eirika's route, Tana's even in the perfect spot to get the rapier village. Then Cormag shows up. Again, you can assert that Franz fails to ORKO and dies too easily all you want, I doubt that's the case. I don't have access to enemy stats from that chapter, but please do prove me wrong. And you still failed to address how either of them has as much of an impact as Franz does earlygame. "flying/ORKOing while never dying" is not proof.

If that's the case, why did I have him at level 14 by the end of chapter 6? It's not because I made sure he got a lot of kills. It's because he was just so good that it was most efficient to have him do things, and as time went on he became better and better. And he was slightly screwed, too. I'll just look at the first few chapters here without Franz: Chapter 1: Enjoy fort/vulnerary spamming with Eirika and Gilliam. Chapter 2: What are you going to do without Franz? Gilliam is doubled without luck, and his offense isn't anything to boast about here, either. lolvanessaagainstaxes. lolross. Are you gunna rush to recruit Garcia and forest tank with him and Eirika? Chapter 3: Well, I guess Gilliam has his uses against the sword/bow enemies, but against axes we're left with just Eirika and Garcia (and sorta Colm) to deal with the axe guys. Chapter 4: When I did this, Franz basically soloed that bottom right section. I guess we're letting the other people fight off the other enemies, then move down there instead of doing it all simultaneously. Chapter 5: Enjoy fighting on all those fronts and getting the villages with still so few frontliners. Chapter 6: I had Franz at level 11 here at the start, and he was responsible for the final charge to the boss. I guess someone not on a horse is plodding along to the boss, and it'll be harder to deal with the initial enemies, too. So we've now taken, what, a dozen more turns with less reliable strategies? We've still got three more chapters before Duessel shows up, too. Show that Duessel or Vanessa have that kind of impact, please. I don't see it.

Have you played a run like this? In chapters 2 and 3 Franz is your best unit both offensively and defensively. In four he's like second defensively and still best offensively. He has the second best MOV possible, and I wouldn't want him to fly, anyways. He makes great use of forests/forts. This whole best offense thing is unchallenged for a long time, and his durability starts to overtake Gilliam's pretty quickly. He takes on the role of Seth in Seth's absence- that role being saving a bajillion turns. Would you care to argue that Duessel has anything that compares to this?

So Franz is our best unit for 9 (and a half-ish) chapters prior to Duessel's existence. Not just best, either, hugely better than everyone else. Then Duessel shows up and has generally better stats and axes, but has significantly less speed (although he is doubling a lot, Franz will double more) and two less MOV. Franz shouldn't be a tier up on him for that? Gerik should be lower, anyways. He's currently above Kyle/Forde. That's a good point. -Eirika is forced the entire game so everything she does is automatically a positive. And she is very helpful early game without Seth thanks to WTA. I guess the prologue is ignored, but in Chapter 1 she is one third of your army, and her AVO can be very helpful against the fighters. I'm not particularly opposed to her falling some, though, just not too far. -I can see that. Bookframing the High/Upper Mid tier break is too low. -Artur has 10 MT/8 CRIT/8 AS to Lute's 11 MT/3 CRIT/6 AS. That 2 AS means that he's 4-5 levels closer to doubling consistently, and an 8% chance to KO an enemy on top of his higher AS means that he'll be much better than Lute much sooner. And later we don't really need her offense on PP much. Better than not having it, but not as nice as having it earlier. -Does Franz not deserve to be a tier up on Duessel?

Any comments on what's been discussed? Moulder up (Disagree) Lute+Artur down (I agree) Artur>Lute (I agree) Gilliam down really really far (I agree) Eph. Ephraim out of top (I agree) Eph. Duessel out of top (I agree) Eph. Gerik<Kyle,Forde (I agree) Eir. Innes>Ephraim (Disagree) Colm out of top (I agree) Vanessa out of top-leaves Franz in his own tier (I agree) Syrene up (I agree) I think this is all of the serious stuff that's been brought up so far.

To me, yes. It gets far more praise than I feel it deserves, so to me it is overrated.

FE7 is just genuinely my least favorite game in the series.

Yes, but I remember always hitting when I had 100% crit. But I don't think I've actually used gamble since some EM playthrough years ago where I still had hit in the 80s...

You ask too much of me, your holiness.

I don't know that Ephraim has the same level of impact as Franz, though. Franz is hugely important early, and then once we get to Ephraim's route Franz beats him in every stat except like, LUK, and has 3 MOV and swords and access to that silver lance. I mean, if you look ahead to chapter 17 with a 20/1 Ephraim, Franz only has to be ~20/6 to have very similar stats. Now, Ephraim has both Siegmund and Reginleif (maybe) but Franz can go for either Vidofnir or Audhulma and has that 1 MOV. And Franz has been winning pretty handily up until now.