Augestein

I never had a problem with Eliwood's base stats. But that might be because I don't actively avoid having him come in contact with enemies. A Hector support with Eliwood is quite possible with Eliwood, and is very useful for him to help with evasion (it's more than Lyndis), damage, durability... Everything. I've played HM FE6. Hence why I said that the Nomads are less of a pain than the cavs because the nomads in a worst case scenario can be trapped like a plus formation. It's annoying that you can't get WTA over them, but the cavaliers have almost the same evade with WTD because they are level 5 as opposed to level 1, have more defense, and retaliate at one range which is what most of your units have against them. Slim Swords are down at the shop at the bottom of the map. It's not fun to grab them-- and I personally wouldn't, but I'm not the one complaining about these nomads-- which ironically enough, you're arguing a point pro-Roy here, so if anything, you're just demonstrating how valuable Roy is if these nomads are that bad. And again, Roy isn't that bad. He's not the best unit, and becomes annoying to have around after people start promoting, but he's not nearly as bad as you're making it out to be.

True enough. Heron's got a heal, a boost for biorhythms and a debuff for enemies. I can see how refresh overshadowed the rest. A passive aura one would be cool too. I'm just up for different lords outside of "swordsman that behaves like a cross between a mercenary and a myrmidon."

I wouldn't mind it too much provided that had something to do otherwise. Like think about it: healer + Refresh Dance + Ninian Rings / Rally buffs would give the lord plenty to do without having to resort to actually fighting. A Mist / Elincia styled lord would be amazing as well I'd think. Starts out as a sword fighter with healing and then gains a mount and a prf weapon on promotion? I could go for that too. I mean, let's use Azura for instance, how many people actually bother attacking with her?

Eliwood's base stats are okay. Nothing special, but still not that bad. Certainly better than Lyn's 16 hp 2 defense. Hit rates aren't that big of a deal. Roy's con is... 6 which is kinda lousy, but considering that you can pretty much iron sword spam the whole game and be fine, I think that's just testament that Alan and Lance are just better versions of Roy. Roy has problems, but you've exaggerated them tremendously. He's just a lackluster unit, but the way people talk about Roy sometimes you'd think this guy was like... Wendy levels of bad. Also, you get slim swords on chapter 4. So just go get them if you're having that hard of a time hitting them. I mean, we're literally talking 2 nomads in Ch. 4, and there aren't any before that. Oh I don't use them either unless someone comes with one. They cost too much to pretty much be a weaker version of iron weapons. Agreed. I only brought up slim swords because I've never had that much of a problem with nomads. They're annoying, but certainly not as bad as the cavaliers on the account that the nomads can be surrounded in a worst case scenario and rendered pointless. Can't say the same for nomads. And that tier list looks about right with Roy being a middle of the road unit. He's okay in the beginning of the game, and it's all downhill for him until he finally gets the Sword of Seals / Binding Blade, and then he's able to eliminate most of the problems he has-- provided you save a staff to allow more uses for his weapon. "Deadweight" I find them fine to use outside of those horrid promotion times. And yes, this is what I was having in mind, Ninian's rings, rallies, heck, I'd even be fine with the lord being a healer that never picks up a weapon as well. I just kinda want a unit that is a tactician through and through or simply a leader that doesn't fight very well-- kinda like how Serra was being escorted by Erk? But instead it's like an entire army escorting them. It could be a fun style of playthrough. I agree with this as well.

The easiest way to have shades of gray in a story is to make both sides have equal weight to their claims. If the villain country for instance is trying to conquer another country for its supplies for instance, this is a good reason to try to conquer another country. Of course the hero country can easily argue that they do not wish to be controlled and don't wish to trade (suppose that they are an isolationist styled country), but it also has the hero country turning a blind-eye to the villain country and not caring what happens to villain country. Already the villain country can be somewhat sympathetic as hard times have hit the country which is forcing them to behave so aggressively. The motive isn't entirely selfish here. Neither country is inherently wrong here as they are attempting to do what's best for them in their situations, and the hero country is simply trying to defend their homeland-- which is not an inherently evil act in and of itself. Even if it comes at the detriment to others. Another way to make the hero country less "innocent" though, is to simply have an ensemble cast and have several people having various motivations that can paint certain behaviors in different lights. Perhaps the hero country isn't truly isolationist, but rather wanting the lands that the villain country has, but realizes that if they let the people starve to death, they don't have to fight a war (but rather simply defend themselves) and can still sweep through the lands when the villain country is desperate enough to give up and allow themselves to be controlled by the hero country. It's not a bad plan even if it's a bit questionable on a morality scale. Or... For fun's sake, you could try writing the story from the "villain" country perspective, which would inherently make shades of gray from the fact that you don't want to see the "villain" country lose because you've established that the characters within the villain country aren't bad people, just born in an unlucky situation.

Farland Story. It's really obscure, but it's a bit of a tactical RPG. Monstania for the SNES is another one. It's not very long and can be beaten in like one or two sittings, but it's pretty fun. Digimon Tamer : Cathode / Anode are another one if you can pick up the system for it. Vandal Hearts is essentially Fire Emblem with a smaller party size overall and not really much choice for who you deploy because of the way the story carries out, but it's gameplay is very similar to it with some Gaidenish elements. But only the first one. The other two kinda do their own thing but are still fun to play. The third one goes back to more of a traditional feel. Bahamut Lagoon ... Sorta, it's strange but it's a nice distraction. Tactics Ogre: Knights of Lodis: They eliminated the turn order from Tactics Ogre: Let us Cling Together and instead attack in phases like Fire Emblem-- which leads to turns going back and forth between the two. You can change classes for advancement, but you don't have to change classes and the way this game works, it's honestly better to stick with one class than flop around and be bad at everything. Super Robot Taisen (or really any of the Super Robot Wars)... Any of them. Front Mission-- smaller parties, but the characters have a bit more customization. Without duplicating what anyone else has said, this is all I can really think of at the top of my head.

His base stats are almost identical to Eliwood's (or more pressingly Alan's and Lance's) except he has fire affinity. Claiming that there's no reason to train someone that is forced deployed is just goofy outside of LTCing. EXP in FE6 is not so limited that you'd even need to go out of your way to avoid leveling up Roy. Training Roy has the pay off of not having him be OHKOed or ORKOed by every enemy on the map. Slim Swords are just as accurate as the rapier, and Roy doesn't ORKO them, so you're going to have to use multiple units, so you may as well sacrifice 3 might if you're having that hard of a time to kill them. I stand by what you're saying makes no sense. Roy's stats are quite literally Alan's with less strength or Lance's with less speed-- of which, there's nothing that Lance can double that Alan cannot before Roy's promotion time. Roy's promotion time is about the main thing that hurts him. Especially if you're using rescue chains to move him around. Not being Rutger doesn't somehow make Roy bad, or else we'd call pretty much ever flier terrible outside of not being Milady/Miredy. And it's not derailed, as I asked for a lord that cannot fight, and you're stating "we already had one in that Roy cannot fight." Of which... Yes he can.

Alan nor Lance double anything at the start, Ward / Wade don't double anything, and get doubled by a lot of things in the beginning and can't hit worth anything. Shanna might be able to help with rescue chains but is a lousy combat unit. Thieves can be replaced by chest keys and are terrible in combat, Bors is hilariously awful, Wolt is... hahaha. Basically long story short, saying Roy is "stealing EXP" is just ridiculous. You have to use him, you may as well make him less deadweight than he already is before you get that shiny Sword of Seals for a bit. And it's funny that you mention Roy to damage the nomads when you don't even get bonus damage on Nomads with the rapier.

No. Because Roy doesn't start out bad. He's just okay, and it's more because of the late promotion time that makes him problematic. Even then, he's not so bad on normal, and I find Shadow Dragon H5 Marth to be more irritating than Roy... At least you get super ranged warp in SD...

A lord that's literally an escort and cannot fight. I know the idea of having dead weight as a unit sounds annoying, but it could be fun for one game. Maybe make them a rallybot or a dancer.

I think any US citizen can attest to this. The Cold War is basically "we didn't use nukes, moving on" in any class.

In terms of content, it would have been nice to have a better idea of what Greil did for Mia, and where she hailed from more clearly. However, because of the nature of both characters, the support would have been about them training more than likely. That's no good. Gameplay wise, it would still be worse than Oscar A Soren B for Ike, and would have practically no use for him. Mia would definitely enjoy the benefits of the support however. Ike wouldn't mind the extra attack, but the durability from the avoid would be more useful for him overall. Especially since Oscar can immediately get C with Ike as soon as supports are unlocked. I honestly doubt Mia would have been able to support with Ike immediately. With Ike being a support for Mia, I feel that there would have been a bit more of a debate on whether Mia was better or equal to Zihark in this case. Earth + Vantage + Wrath would be pretty good overall. The one I would have wanted storywise would have been Jill/Elincia... Which honestly gives me vibes that Elicina was toyed around with for being playable from the start rather than so late in the game. I mean... Mist at one point was a lord type character, so it wouldn't be surprising at all.

I was more so thinking about things like Yarne's chapter where you get the choice of which group you want to side with or neither, which changes the unit composition that you're fighting as well as how you approach the map. Choices that affect gameplay as well as dialogue. Add in certain characters joining based on choices and altering supports, and I think it could be decent at any rate.

Do you count characters that have dialogue options across the course of the game as mute too? If so, they could get around that with this. Sure Robin had some bad dialogue choices, but there were some, and at least Corrin got a choice that mattered-- I'd say the next step is to combine the two and have smaller choices over the course of the game that actually do things.

lol. I love Zell for being a "TRAITOR."

But it's not worship. And Awakening world building isn't that bad. It's not stand out I'll admit, but it's definitely there.

Probably by saying that they were warned and had enough time to leave I'd guess. He doesn't seem like the type of person to publicly say he regrets something.

Sure. But that still doesn't address that the lords still stem from a basic form of personality.There's still not that much variance. You can be different and still have normalcy. Honestly, this comment just made me think of something, probably the biggest reason that people dislike Corrin so much in Conquest and to a certain extent, Revelations: that basic lord personality doesn't work as well in the context we are given, the game expects you to believe that Corrin is all of the basic lord traits, but because of the way the story goes, ends up demonstrating different traits such as selfishness instead of selflessness, cowardice instead of bravery, a preference to a group of people -- instead of just going with the vanilla lord "everyone is equal" mentality... etc. We end up with a character that's just a mess because they aren't entirely what the game wishes us to believe. And what I mean here, is that you'd never have a lord behave like say... Farina, a woman that is willing to help people, but only for a price. You'd never have a lord like Aria where she'd happily slaughter people to save her brother (okay, so I'll admit Corrin definitely does this but the story seems to be under the impression that (s)he wouldn't)-- these are the types of characters and personalities that are saved by your lord. A lord character would never do things like that. And honestly the "who would want to be in an army run by Serra or Odin?" I don't know, because Odin doesn't seem incompetent, just... A little off. Serra I wouldn't on the account that she's kind of self-absorbed. Not necessarily selfish, but just extraordinarily vain. Of course all types of personalities aren't going to be fit for a lord, but that doesn't mean that they all need to be so close.

Oh, I definitely agree that Robin is better implemented plot wise than Corrin, you'll get no argument from me. The issue I'm having is that Corrin's "worship" is not as bad as Ike's for instance, and people just give that a free pass. I'd say the problem isn't that Corrin is praised (or even indirectly) too much, but rather a problem with world building in Fates. The world literally feels like it didn't come into existence until Corrin came, and every event seems to have *something* to do with Corrin. It's like they saw Chrom and realized this problem with both Ike and Chrom, where neither really matters terribly much for the plot, and so they went into overdrive trying to ensure that Corrin-- the actual lord, was important to the plot. However, what ends up happening is that Corrin is a little bit TOO plot centered on things to the point that even character motivations seem to stem from Corrin. However, the thing is that it doesn't feel like worship, but rather that these characters have nothing better to do with their time because they weren't given diverse enough motivations-- of which I'm blaming the overabundance of royalty characters that literally don't have much of a reason not to join you outside of the fact that you didn't side with their path. The war starts from Corrin, Corrin is a blood relative to the main villain, Corrin is siblings with the Hoshidans, Corrin is related to the Nohrians through the kidnapping (with no real explanation for how or why Corrin was there), Corrin has retainers that relate to him Jakob, Gunter, Felicia and Fiora (who admittedly is decently written in the regards that she has better things to do besides Corrin), 3 of the Nohrian retainers are sent for the sole purpose of finding and protecting Corrin, Kaze was supposed to be Corrin's retainer, all of the retainers have some proxy of familiarity with Corrin because (s)he is siblings with all of the royalty Which pretty much leaves Shura, Nyx, Scarlet, Reina, and Yukimaru as the few that seem to have things to do outside of Corrin. There are exceptions like Arthur, Effie, Peri, Azama etc. That don't have some sort of loose connection around Corrin, but most of the characters seem to in the game. In terms of character, I'd say Robin is much better handled than Corrin, it's not even a contest.

I didn't say that they all don't suffer for their actions. Hector for instance meets a terrible end, and some of that can be linked to his decision to wield Armads. Lyndis almost gets herself screwed over for her actions against the Marquess, Marth has a dump taken on him by Camus in FE3 for instance for his actions. There *are* people that oppose them at moments. This ... Doesn't really tie into what I was saying at all. Yes. He does. And that doesn't really change my point either. My point is that praise is given to the lords all of the time. I'll even quote myself from earlier: This is true for all of the lords. No one would want to play as or follow a character that has everyone constantly bashing them. It'd get really tiresome really quickly. Celica having a disagreement with Alm doesn't really matter in this argument, because we're talking about praise and furthermore, she is also a lord. We aren't talking about negatives, as almost all of the lords are met with skepticism or negativity. Which... Doesn't really address what I was talking about. My point is that people constantly drone on about how Corrin and Robin and pretty much every avatar is praised to the point of worship when Corrin and Robin aren't even the worst of the lot in terms of lords in the series. And pretty much every lord is praised sans the FE7 ones that I can really think about. The only avatar that really reaches excessive praise levels is Kris and that's primarily because the plot starts underselling Marth to bolster Kris. And that's pretty good, as you can appreciate a person with this personality that has his fair share of setbacks, and even start to root for him to hope that he doesn't lose that idealism but becomes grounded enough in reality to not have the terrible situations happen to him anymore or as much. Yeah, I can definitely agree with that. Avatars are a strange beast storywise.

I compare Mikoto to Aerith. Both knew far more than they were initially letting on, and both of them kick the bucket to a katana. >_>

Hector is still a guy that fights for his friends in the end of the day. Ike is the same way as well. What I'm saying is that you won't have the variance of personality say of say: Soren, Serra, Merric, Azel, Odin... When you compare those mages, there's far more differences in personality there than the lords. As in: all of the lords are a play off of the same personality base.

By the time any of the other retainers meet, Corrin's already done some stuff. Odin is the only one that has "praise" and that's more so because he's completely insane, and Kaze because Corrin literally saved his life at the beginning of the game. Which is the best reason to say anything good. Saizo certainly doesn't like Corrin, it's even in his supports. I'd argue that the main characters themselves could all be written better. All of them are plays on the same type of personality. The only real stand out ones are Ephraim for actually kind of being a warmonger honestly, and that's more of a trait rather than the entirety of his character. The biggest problem with lords is primarily how the world interacts with them. In the case of Ike, there are other things in PoR that stand out more which is why I can forgive the plot a bit more than Fates, but I've always seen the praise of the main characters as a thing in the series. The only time a person really got hi-jacked was Marth in FE12. And that was grating because it took a dump on Marth more than the Kris praise in and of itself.

Yeah, and Corrin is praised by his siblings primarily and his retainers. That's... Pretty normal. And it's not really off-topic because it's about Avatars.

And he shouldn't have it in the first place. Like... Robin in his first battle demonstrates more reason to have respect of them than Ike. Robin has tactical skills that are above par of anyone on the Sheperds, control of magic and competence with swords. He's already a trained fighter to some extent. Ike was literally put in charge for no reason. Greil dying has no bearing on the fact that Titania, the second in command that was literally just giving him orders the day before, exists. THAT'S not a reason. If your 1st in command dies, you don't go "hey newbie! You're up." You give it to the second in command. Which would be Titania. Gatrie and Shinon leaving actually makes sense, because I'd bail out too if everyone in my squad went pants on head stupid and did that. However, the game makes it out like THEY are in the wrong for being sane. Yes he was. The first battle, everyone dog piles him with compliments assuming no one dies. It never stops. How is Ike not praised constantly? They didn't desert Ike. They left because they didn't want to die.Deciding to stay with Ike because they respected Greil is one thing, putting someone that has no idea WTF they are doing is another thing entirely. That Awakening is smart enough to know that a person doesn't win a war alone so it doesn't say stupid stuff like that. Ike is literally praised at the start of the game. Mist literally does that when you "beat" Greil despite the fact that he's clearly holding back. In Fates, Xander praises Corrin for not being brain dead and at least decent enough to hold his own in training. Awakening has Chrom impressed by Robin's command of the field, and people are impressed that Robin is a caster and a swordsman... Because there's no one else in the game that does that which is a bit of a spiffy talent. Which really isn't reasonable when you consider that... Without Begnion, Daein's war couldn't be won, and Begnion is the sovereign state of Crimea which basically leaves Begnion as the complete ruler of the world as they know it outside of laguz territory. If anything, you'd think they'd hate Elincia for being a figurehead ruler (huh, yeah, part 2 actually makes sense), and Ike for being her lapdog mercenary that helped make such a mess possible. Which makes the entire discussion pointless if you're just going to shrug and say "Ike's the best and Corrin and Robin are worse" with no real substance of an argument. Saying I didn't play PoR when I clearly sighted specific examples from the game is pretty disingenuous.