Makaze
-
Posts
577 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Posts posted by Makaze
-
-
Like...
If this is the best you can do, it's simply not good enough to win the game, unfortunately. At some point -- IMO, D2 is the standard -- you have to have read every player and be up to date on all of them so that your reads aren't happening in a vacuum. The longer you wait the worse the catchup is, and then you're just a drag on the team.
How do you plan to make up for that disadvantage?
-
1 minute ago, EvanManManMan said:
I mean, looking at somebody's posts and coming to a conclusion is solving is it not?
And I don't have the tools nor the time that somebody like you have so you can't expect as in depth stuff than what I've given.
No... Solving is trying to put together the entire game state.
1 minute ago, EvanManManMan said:I am aware that Bart is a likely lynch candidate so I gave my thoughts on him and I don't think he is that scummy. I do recognize this stuff and idk why you are saying that I'm not.
You're not actively trying to convince others. You're distancing yourself from the lynch the same way you did with Satsuma. If you're sure he's town, then you need to do a better job of steering the town to the right people.
-
4 minutes ago, Bartozio said:
I get missinterpreted and misslynched basicly every game I play, so I think I have reasons to double check what I read.
And even if I didn't, it's mostly a habbit anyway.
Your mentor played one game with me, where he subbed in at a point where I was hard flaking. I'm honestly amazed if he thinks he can derive my general playstyle from that.He also never played town me. (Besides, SB would have convinced me to convince the rest fo the team to fear kill you purely for your mentor if I was scum.)
Second line is fine, but then your initial phrasing was pretty missleading.
The shading is bad, but it reminds me of my previous game with Evan (where he was town). His cases don't seem that bad, although some are missinformed (you trying to cw Evan when Mak had more votes is odd, but you did indeed suspect his earlier).
It's like... his posts are bad, but they're better then last game, so I'm not really scumreading him for it?
It makes no sense to me to not lynch people who I feel are obvious scum, just because it seems too obvious. Not every scum player is a good one, some are just easier to catch.
I'm really liking how you're responding to my case, and I don't think you make sense with my other scum reads, so you have moved down.
But, lines like this "It's like... his posts are bad, but they're better then last game, so I'm not really scumreading him for it?" ping me really bad, and make me doubt my never w/w statement.
You are the most likely lynch today. Evan has to be aware of that. What do you think of Evan's passive town read on you in light of how people have you as their top read?
-
Just now, EvanManManMan said:
How am I not solving? I don't see a problem with how I read Bart's ISO. I didn't find it to be that scummy. I don't care if you disagree that's my read. And now after one post I'm suddenly your top scum? Lol
You've been floating there for a little while, but yeah, these questions aren't going anywhere.
The right question is "How are you solving?"
-
Evan and Bart are never w/w
I believe lynching Evan clears the PoE significantly, and I don't think what he is doing is solving, including how he replied to that ISO read
Evan > Fable / Bart > Zeonth
And we have a three way tie, which should be fun, who is switching?
-
-
Just now, Fable said:
Psst, literally voting Evan at this very moment.
... Fair.
-
Just now, Fable said:
What was the point?
I think 1-2 wolves on Satsuma probably likely yeah.
He was pointing that all of your lynch candidates were also all of the people on the wagon. Since its unlikely all 3 were on the wagon, you should have at least one suspect who's not.
-
1 minute ago, Fable said:
The thread.
Okay, he's shading you. But, he also had a point.
Do you think all three scum were on the Satsuma wagon?
-
3 minutes ago, Fable said:
Can we talk about Evan shading me for the sake of it? He made a point of me describing the votes on Satsuma negatively but there was literally no point to do doing that. He made no conclusions.
Who are you talking to, in particular?
-
32 minutes ago, Bartozio said:
I don't really understand what you mean by preparedness here, even after reading your whole post. Can you elaborate? Do you think I was expecting Xnads reaction and prepared a response before reading it?
There's two or three people in this game that have played with me enough to know my meta, and I can't remember them talking about my meta on this point. Your mentor shouldn't really know it either. Please post quotes or tell me who you were talking to in the scum chat?
It's a general rule that you don't need to prepare statements you believe in or come naturally to you. Your reads list reads as posturing.
lol
My mentor does know how you play, they were the one who pointed out your other scum game to me, but yeah, I meant that more generally in that others haven't defended you for that behavior on meta basis (which is the only basis I can see).
-
Alright.
When I was reading Bartozio's ISO there were some things that seemed tonally off to me.
On 6/19/2018 at 11:54 AM, Bartozio said:Uhm, no? All you did in that conversation was react with: this question is dumb. This question is dumber. Why are you being dumb? (in rvs)
That doesn't count as keeping an interaction going to me. Heck, if you were suspicious of Athena when you asked that "What are you trying to pull?", why didn't you vote him? Even if he was joking, why not continue with asking him why he was asking you all those question, since it doesn't seem like you were townreading him for the effort? I'm having trouble seeing this lack of intrest come from someone trying to solve the game.
Think this is a good point to correct my vote:
##Vote: @XnadrojX
This (in rvs) just seems weird to me. It's not natural, and the preparedness of his statements is pinging. I wanted to chalk it up to just way of talking, but there are inconsistencies. I'll talk more about that later.
On 6/20/2018 at 2:01 AM, Bartozio said:I meant to say that was how I interpreted it (and thus, how you meant it), instead of you factually saying it. I can see I didn't word it well, so apologies.
What would I expect you to gain? Any kind of a read? A chance to attempt to move out of rvs? Did I really not make that clear yet?
Even if you feel it turned out useful in the end, I call BS on you expecting it to be usefull when the conversation just ended, which was my point.
During rvs, you can literaly play anything off as a joke. Heck, even if he was joking, he was still attempting to start something. If I was expecting someone to be trying to pull some kind of scummy stunt, him answering it was just a joke would not convince me in the least.
If you feel analyzing rvs is pointless (even during rvs), sure. It means games will never pick from your doing, so you'll always rely on other players to get things going. If everyone played like that, D1 would just be roulette. But sure, you can play like that.
Someone thinking scum would be less open and thus try to hide their emotion makes sense. I think scum can just not be great at hiding their emotions though. You being annoyed when someone tries to start something with you during rvs feels scummy, because should love the chance to get the ball rolling. Basicly, I din't think you showing emotion itself is scummy, I think the particular emotion you showed at that time was scummy.
I literaly gave examples of what you could have done. Voting him or voting with him are the things I would have done.
You're not giving him a real way to continue, which is why it breaks of the conversation.
Reaching question => dumb question in my book. So after you called two of his questions reaching, asking "what are you trying to pull" is pretty similar to asking "Why are you being dumb" imo.
It was ment as a refrence to you saying me attacking you for a lack of scumhunting, but me only attacking you with faulty logic is a leap in logic itself.
Also, I explained how my logic connects.
The post Mack reacted to was made before your conversation with Athena.
The SB shitposting thing being a joke doesn't matter, he still tried to get you to vote me.
Honestly, I'm starting to think I just expected more from Xnad at the start of the game then I should have.
Fables cases feel like stuff he could have made at anytime, making his actions feel more like stalling then actually needing to get started.
##Unvote
##Vote: @Fable
He spends all that time casing Xanodj and then switches to Fable with a one liner. As others pointed out to me, this isn't normal for him, and there is only a single lead up post before this. First he asked Fable to produce reads, and then when he did produce reads, his entire case was "Those reads weren't worth the wait". I'd expect something more damning than this, like, you don't believe the reads are real, they agree with your ideas of who else is Mafia, and so on.
This is a lazy casing tactic because it puts the work on Fable to implicate himself and Bart doesn't have to do a thing. He waits. If Fable produces real reads, he can back off and do it to someone else. If Fable underperforms, he can case him for underperforming. The fact that this is where his case begins and ends makes me think its not a genuine read, and could be bus or mislynch chasing as just as easily.
None of that is really damning, but then when I read his reads list, something stuck out to me.
On 6/20/2018 at 4:45 PM, Bartozio said:Wooh, reads time. I haven't reread or fully read as much I would've liked, but I'm going to sleep, so here's what I'm currently at, mostly from towny to scummy:
I feel Makaze is likely town. His sticking to a "soul read" might be annoying, but his later reasoning for it wasn't bad (as in, I can believe someone being convinced for these reasons), and I feel his posts are very much made in an attempt to solve the game. Would not lynch.
Rapier (YESSS, he's not really flaking yet) made some pretty sharp comments, and I like his reasoning overall. Likely town.
Athena: I liked Athenas start of trying to get things going, and his content till now has looked fine or good to me. I also feel scum Athena struggles more with producing meaningfull content and will generally stick too easy content, where town Athena feels a lot more natural. His current play clearly fits in the second category, imo.
Fenrir, Junk and Rad feel fine to me, but I really need to reread their content. Homework for N1 I guess.
Mackc2: I feel his later posts were a bit above average in terms of scumhunting and interacting with the thread for him, so I'm not really scumreading this slot. His general playstyle and
me not knowing his scum meta (roll scum already dude) make it more of null/slight town lean though.Zeonth catch up post wasn't bad, but I need to hear opinions about the second (and more intresting) half of the game before forming a real opinion on him. Or read it if it is actually already posted...
Xnad: Taking a step back, I'm more willing to believe he really just doesn't give any value to rvs (not an actual quote, but an interpretation), and as much as I disagree with his case on me,
I do think there's actual thought put into it. He also doesn't use his case on me as a reason to ignore other stuff, which I like. Basicly, a lot less sure about him being scum. Urgh, leaning
more towards null/slightly town right now, but that might swing over to any side in the next span of a day. (Did I mention I suck when I start to secondguess stuff).Satsuma: His content is low, but it's not a lot different from IDNSFMM, which makes me mostly null on him. I feel like he was slightly more cooperative then though, even though there was
less content from my memory, so small scum lean here.Evan's posts were bad, but about the same as last game I feel. He could be coasting since people seem to not want to lynch based purely on his lack of content, but that's mostly NAI right
now.I feel Fable's first real content post was scummy, because the case on Makaze was something he seems to have had in his mind for most of the game, and Evan hadn't posted in at least a day. He could have made that post a full day earlier without changing anything. This feels less like having trouble to get reads, and more like just not wanting to post for half a day. It would literaly not suprise me if he had that whole post written out a day in advance.
@Fable, I think you can respond to a case without me asking questions, but sure:
Why did you post those cases against Makaze and Evan at the time you did? Why not a full day earlier?
I'd prefer a Fable lynch at this point, but since that doesn't seem likely to happen, I'm a lot more in favor of Satsuma then any of the alternatives:
##Unvote
##Vote: @SatsumaFSoysoy
Some of his reads come off as overly formed, while others read more naturally. Some of them are first drafts, and others are revisions.
Most of the off ones are people I am town reading, and the Rapier is one we know is town, so this jumping between tone in one reads list is highly pinging.
To check on my sanity and see if this was his normal game, I read his day 1 from his recent scum game. Here are some examples:
SpoilerOn 5/14/2018 at 11:18 AM, Bartozio said:Sup guys, I'm back. Did a quick skim of the thread.
I think scum!Eury would just post less lol. After she posted she'd barely have time, she made some posts with barely any reads in them. I think Scum!Eury would use being busy as an excuse to not post until she had some decent reads to share.
I meant Refa saying he had a gut scumread on people (think it was you and Shinori) but not pursuing it at all. I think that if he was feeling bad about you guys he'd have quite a lot to talk about, so it's weird to me he didn't. (Admittedly, he has made cases since I made that readpost though.)
I mean, I admit they could be playing like this as scum, but that's kind of a mood point cause I could see them round up half the scum teama s scum in an attempt to look good. I feel like their current actions are a lot more likely to come from town and didn't really see anything bad in their posts (I already explained what I found good about their posts in my readup). I'll have to reread them to properly respond to your cases though.
Refa acutally making cases on Shinori and SB makes me feel a bit better about him, because it seems like he actually had stuff he didn't like about them, instead of just trowing around accusations without any thought behind it. As I said, I'll have to actually read up on stuff to respond to it properly, but they seem like decent cases at first glance.
Evans case on Ice Sage looks pretty bad, since it's basicly just accusing him of not having any reads, while Evan doesn't really seem to have those himself either (apart from this case I guess). I find it a bit disturbing he didn't look into SB at all after trowing shade at him for his initial case, and came back with an easy case on Ice Sage instead.
Wouldn't mind lynching this slot tbh.
I think Ice Sage makes more sense as a vig target tbh, since his only meaningful interaction is with Evan (could say the same about Mack, but he's getting a sub).
I made this post around page 14, but then my internet died and I could only post it now. fml, but have some comments anyway.
On 5/14/2018 at 12:04 PM, Bartozio said:@Vi-astra Done reading his posts.
Him coming in the thread townreading you, KTS and Eury is pretty null to me. You guys were pretty much consensus town I think, so it's a pretty safe read.
His gutread on Randa could be intresting for associative reads later on, but it doesn't really mean anything right now imo. Read on me is basicly saying I should post more, which is NAI.
His reasoning for finding SB town and finding Shinori odd at least had some reasoning behind it, though he dropped suspision on Shinori rather easily.
My problem with his content isn't so much that any of it is bad, but there's just not a lot that's really telling to me. Definitly don't want to lynch him before Evan or Rad right now, since those two I find actually scummy if that's why you asked.
On 5/16/2018 at 5:16 PM, Bartozio said:I'm not so much saying there's no scum on the Evan wagon, but more dissagreeing with people saying there needs to be a great amount of scum (3+) on the wagon. If Randa was town, scum had no reason to try hard and get Evan lynched either. It's also possible scum was fully intend to bus Randa and didn't find a good reasoning to switch and/or hard push Evan. Heck, maybe they were on Evan and were planning to push him like mad to save Randa, but enough town went to him on their own they didn't need to bother. I think using this reasoning to insist on lynching someone from the Evan wagon is bad and overlooking a lot of posibilities.
Basicly, I think we should lynch who we think is scummy for their play. If the consensus is that Randa/Rad is the scummiest slot, we lynch them and analyze the wagons if he flips scum (still don't think we should only lynch on the Evan wagon in this case). If we think someone outside the wagon is the scummiest, we lynch them. Same if it's someone on the wagon. We do not consolidate on someone just because he happened to be voting a scummy townie and we need to lynch someone doing that.
Why are you voting Elemina actually? Did you even talk about them at all?
Response to Athena response to Conq
You want to lynch RAD first, sure, but you're still saying we should at the very least lynch on the Evan wagon. Not that we should lynch RAD and nobody else because he's confirmed scum in your eyes, not that we should definetly lynch in a pool of a few people you find really scummy who all happen to be on the wagon.
This mean you prioritize the wagon and it's formation, not the actual people on it (apart from RAD I guess), which I explained above is bad. This is my main problem with your slot at the moment, and what mostly caught my eye in Conq's case. I do not think you responded accurately to this point at all.
I don't dissagree with the Randa/RAD slot being scummy (which should be obvious from my vote being on them at the end of the day and my first post mentioning it). I do disagree with how scummy the rest of the wagon is. Scum can luck out sometimes, and I think Randa mostly lucked out with how bad Evan played.
If a bunch of people on the wagon look scummy individually, push them and get them lynched. Convince me of their individual scumminess. That's not a reason as to why everyone else on that wagon should be lynchpriority over people not on it.
It feels to me like you're trying to create reasons to not look at other people and push people on the wagon without reasons other then Rad being scum.
If scum didn't hammer on it, it means townies decided on their own to lynch Evan over Rad though?
You're saying scum wasn't willing to risk much, but jumping onto a counterwagon with bad reasoning is pretty risky. If you had succeeded in getting people to lynch Rad, they'd get called out for it. As I said before, I think there were enough reasons to actually make up a good reason to jump on the Evan wagon. Scum worries about how they look, so they'll put more effort into making their jump look good.
I could very easily see you having planned on bussing RAD and being to stuck to switch and just rolling with it for the cred now. especially if the other scum was also voting elsewhere. Even without that, focusing on the whole wagon instead of the people you find scummy there reads like a scum agenda to me.
##Vote: RAD
##FoS: athena
When I said his case was good, I mostly meant it made Conq look good. I already mentioned I didn't think your response to focussing on the wagon was any good though, and the thing with your case evolving required a reread (not scumreading you on that btw, don't think your progression was bad).
Michelaar had played one game. He insisted on not reading into anything and how all cases people made were flimsy and not worth commenting on. Refa tried saving him from the lynch by picking up a quote and trying to play it off as a townslip.
(2) Refa - Shinori, Elemina
(3) RAD - athena, Baldrick, Bartozio
(1) athena - Conqueror
Notes: SB, Bartozio, and Baldrick were the Mafia
He got lynched, losing the game.
One thing I notice is he was a lot less formal and seemed more natural than he has in this game. I am baffled by that as town because you should not be more tense and uneven as town than as Mafia, so I'm going to chalk this up to him taking mentors advise in some cases, but being more natural in others.
This is the real scum tell for me, there is no town reason to have these uneven tones across your post.
You can tell these statements are prepared and copy pasted because of odd line breaks, so I'm not going to consider that the reason, before you try to defend and say you always type them up in a word document, I can see that line breaking in both games.
What's pinging is the difference in tone from one read to the next, where you seem casual in one breath and tense in the next.
Then there's the Satsuma vote. His Satsuma vote comes just one post after his Fable vote, and he quickly jumps on the grounds "Fable wagon isn't going anywhere". This is two easy vote swaps that lack actual strength compared to his Xandroj read in the space of a post.
On 6/20/2018 at 5:00 PM, Bartozio said:I already mentioned I didn't mind you not having cases at the start of the game though. You did pick up there though, and I remember you posting suspision on Zeus or an early townread on Bibbons without seemingly waiting endlessly for it.
People will find a way it seems.
1 minute ago, EvanManManMan said:On page 3 right now. I think that Athena is towny due to their early vote on Junk and the way they questioned Xandroj. I think the way that xandroj responded was scummy. Athena basically said "there is a lot of content go find stuff" and xandroj just basically said no and I don't like that for obvious reasons.
THANK YOU!
This THANK YOU is just bad and pings me really bad, and makes me look back at his Xandroj wagon and think he only dropped it because it wasn't gaining traction, and his read didn't actually change.
I'm pretty sure Bartozio is Mafia independent of who else is, based on these points and associations being all over the place.
-
6 minutes ago, Fenrir Aesir said:
Of the people whose ISOs I've read so far I'd prefer a Bart or Evan lynch. I can prioritize Zeo as an ISO to read and do him next.
I'm actually thinking that Zeo needs to get invested, and right now he can just ignore the votes.
Maybe votes don't scare him, I don't know.
-
4 minutes ago, Fenrir Aesir said:
Makaze-Part II/II
313/316: In Fable's wagon analysis he called Makaze's vote on SoySoy lazy, a sentiment I don't share given the analysis present before (it's only like 3 posts but it's at least present). I'm interested in how/if the townflip affected his read on Fable. @Fable what felt lazy about it to you, and @Makaze what are your thoughts on my earlier comment about Bartozio's Fable vote?
406: Was a very sudden shift from having Evan fairly high up on your scumlist; what content did he put forth that changed your mind?
456: Is an indicator of Makaze being open to the possibility of Fable flips town and thinking of what it means if he does, which is a good look.Evan's EoD quickfire reads read similar to his behavior in IDSFMM5, and his reads pretty much agreed with mine. He also brought up points about Rapier that made me question my town read, overall it seemed like he was making good content in a short time.
On later inspection, he didn't do anything hard, and there wasn't a big progression to draw on since it happened in the last hours.
I am withholding my thoughts on Bartozio until Bartozio posts... But, he and Zeonth were just viewing the thread and now they are gone again.
A little more.
-
@Fenrir Aesir @RADicate @Mackc2
Can one of you vote for Zeonth so that we avoid a no lynch tie which pressures no one?
I've seen Zeonth lurking quite a few times and not seen a lot to show for it (Bart is also viewing the thread right now).
-
I don't mean any offense, but if you don't at least read that Bartozio ISO well before EOD, I'm going to consider you stalling, real life be damned.
-
1 minute ago, EvanManManMan said:
Don't have ISOs and can't get em
this is not doing you or me any favors.
here, ill paste them for you, it's a big post though
Bartozio
SpoilerOn 6/18/2018 at 11:49 AM, Bartozio said:@athena_57 Wait, why is it only weird SB hasn't shitposted yet? Why are you not expecting me to shitpost? What the hell man?
Also, what made you think XsonajX's reaction to you was towny?
On 6/18/2018 at 12:22 PM, Bartozio said:Disagree, I feel like being annoyed at someone trying to start an interaction with you is more likely to come from scum tbh. It felt to me like he was only reacting to you out of neccesity and broke it off as soon as possible, which is weird when you're at a point in the game where every bit of interaction you can get out of people is welcome information.
Vote: XnadrojX
You suddenly dropping a townread on him also felt weird to me, but your reasoning is good enough that I don't suspect you for it anymore (sheep me though).
On 6/18/2018 at 12:31 PM, Bartozio said:Not really I'm affraid. He's generally distant as a player and struggling with reads and he's been town every single game...
His read on Junk feels somewhat towny, because he could have just struck to his reasoning of an entrance being NAI, so it's needless association as scum.
Huh, remind me to ask things of people more often.On 6/18/2018 at 12:37 PM, Bartozio said:Town him would also want to get the ball rolling, and it's not like there was anything better to read up on.
On 6/18/2018 at 12:55 PM, Bartozio said:I can see it happen, yeah. It feels like a clumsy way to please you.
Tbf though, the reason I said I wasn't sure was because I felt your interpretation also made sense. Thinking about it more though, him being town makes more sense.
Basicly, P(Mack is town, felt your question of entrances was dumb, but looked into it more anyway and actually found something) > P(Mack is scum, ignored your question at first, but felt like he had to answer the second time so came up with a decent reason to ignore it, then read up and came up with a read based on it anyway) > significantly likely.
If that is actually readable.
On 6/19/2018 at 11:54 AM, Bartozio said:He could have tried deriving Athena's alligance from it? He could have tried starting an rvs wagon on me for the whole SB not shitposting thing? There were several things he could have done to move the game forward with it, yet he didn't.
I mean, Xnad was reacting seriously to obvious joke questions. The only other thing Athena could have done imo was continuing the joke, but I don't think that would have done anything either. I feel like at the end of their conversation, Athena walked away with a failed attempt to start anything, but at least a read on Xnad. Xnad got... nothing. No attempt to start anything, no read on Athena, nothing. In this situation, I'd expect Xnad to want more out of the conversation, while Athena got basicly all he was likely gonna get.
I guess that's something. Although it became nothing at the end of the conversation, so...
Uhm, no? All you did in that conversation was react with: this question is dumb. This question is dumber. Why are you being dumb? (in rvs)
That doesn't count as keeping an interaction going to me. Heck, if you were suspicious of Athena when you asked that "What are you trying to pull?", why didn't you vote him? Even if he was joking, why not continue with asking him why he was asking you all those question, since it doesn't seem like you were townreading him for the effort? I'm having trouble seeing this lack of intrest come from someone trying to solve the game.
Think this is a good point to correct my vote:
##Vote: @XnadrojX
Showing emotion == having said emotion? We analyzed the same thing, but we had different reasons for our conclusions.
Was this about me or Athena?
Does this count as trowing shade yet?
Indeed, it wasn't a normal flow of thinking. It was the amazing thinking of a proffesional internet detective with a degree in mathematics! Yes, yes, thank you, you are all lucky to have me!
In all seriousness though, I don't think my flow of thinking was that weird. Also, what do you think scum!me would be trying to pull here then? One more point for not putting in effort to solve the game I guess.
.On 6/19/2018 at 12:00 PM, Bartozio said:I don't think this is entirely fair, because you came in halfway through the game, so you had a bigger picture then just his early game. If Fable is the type of player who needs a while to get going (which he clearly was in that game), that kind of thing really matters.
Sorry, but I'm not sheeping you on just a gutread. I'm willing to consolidate onto Fable if he keeps this unproductiveness up though.
On 6/19/2018 at 1:57 PM, Bartozio said:He's a slow starter, so I'm willing to give him time to get going. This is why I said if he continues, instead of me outright suspecting him now.
There's a limit to how much time I'm willing to give him though, and that limit is less then a full day phase.
Fair. It doesn't strike me as completely different, but tone is generally not something I'm great at remembering. I'll see if I have time to reread some of his ED1 posts that game.
If you (or other people) read my post as me saying you actually said Athena was being dumb (etc.), then I apologize, that was not my intent. I did actually interpred it as you reacting only to his factual questions, and not his intent (getting an rvs wagon going, or just any kind of thing to move the game out of rvs). Maybe I'm being dumb and it really wasn't that obvious and maybe we really have completely different ways of approuching rvs. I still find it an odd interaction from your part, especially since you seemed (from my PoV) fine with it ending without you having gained anything from it, not even a good read on Athena.
Yes, you had some suspision on him halfway through, and yes you pushed that. And yes, I read his response of "Joking". But... isn't that a pretty easy answer? Why did that stop all your suspision? And if it did, doesn't that mean you ended with no read on him? Why didn't you try to analyze whether jokingly approuching you was more likely to come from town or scum Athena?
He townread you for showing emotion at all, and didn't delve too much into why you would have those emotions in the first place. His point was valid in the sense that I can see him reaching that conclusion, even if I don't agree with it.
I'm actually saying I think your scum, for what that's worth.
I explained one. for two: reacting seriously to jokes like this is a pretty good way to stop them from continuing. A rvs wagon on me isn't going to start when you already explained why all of his reasons are reaching. If you actually didn't get he was joking, you didn't break of the interaction, sure.
Considering you said that after (in my interpretation, annoyed) explaining why all of his topics were super reaching, I don't think it's such a weirt interpretation.
I do not consider my logic flawed, so even if it is flawed in your opinion, it doesn't make my comments a leap? Since I'm the one making them?
I feel like I explained this above, but let me know if you think I didn't.
He walked away with a read on you though.
I think I already said this before, but you could have easily sheeped his logic and voted me for SB not shitposting. Or ask why he isn't voting me at putting his money where his mouth is.
Or just vote him for only coming up with reaching reasons to vote someone. Or talk about people entering the thread without voting, like he and Mack did later on. Any of these would have moved the thread along more then what you did.
...Apart from the fact that I need a lot of "leaps in logic"....which clearly aren't fallacies...
Actually believing said misrepresentation? Boring story, I know.
On 6/20/2018 at 2:01 AM, Bartozio said:I meant to say that was how I interpreted it (and thus, how you meant it), instead of you factually saying it. I can see I didn't word it well, so apologies.
What would I expect you to gain? Any kind of a read? A chance to attempt to move out of rvs? Did I really not make that clear yet?
Even if you feel it turned out useful in the end, I call BS on you expecting it to be usefull when the conversation just ended, which was my point.
During rvs, you can literaly play anything off as a joke. Heck, even if he was joking, he was still attempting to start something. If I was expecting someone to be trying to pull some kind of scummy stunt, him answering it was just a joke would not convince me in the least.
If you feel analyzing rvs is pointless (even during rvs), sure. It means games will never pick from your doing, so you'll always rely on other players to get things going. If everyone played like that, D1 would just be roulette. But sure, you can play like that.
Someone thinking scum would be less open and thus try to hide their emotion makes sense. I think scum can just not be great at hiding their emotions though. You being annoyed when someone tries to start something with you during rvs feels scummy, because should love the chance to get the ball rolling. Basicly, I din't think you showing emotion itself is scummy, I think the particular emotion you showed at that time was scummy.
I literaly gave examples of what you could have done. Voting him or voting with him are the things I would have done.
You're not giving him a real way to continue, which is why it breaks of the conversation.
Reaching question => dumb question in my book. So after you called two of his questions reaching, asking "what are you trying to pull" is pretty similar to asking "Why are you being dumb" imo.
It was ment as a refrence to you saying me attacking you for a lack of scumhunting, but me only attacking you with faulty logic is a leap in logic itself.
Also, I explained how my logic connects.
The post Mack reacted to was made before your conversation with Athena.
The SB shitposting thing being a joke doesn't matter, he still tried to get you to vote me.
Honestly, I'm starting to think I just expected more from Xnad at the start of the game then I should have.
Fables cases feel like stuff he could have made at anytime, making his actions feel more like stalling then actually needing to get started.
##Unvote
##Vote: @Fable
On 6/20/2018 at 4:45 PM, Bartozio said:Wooh, reads time. I haven't reread or fully read as much I would've liked, but I'm going to sleep, so here's what I'm currently at, mostly from towny to scummy:
I feel Makaze is likely town. His sticking to a "soul read" might be annoying, but his later reasoning for it wasn't bad (as in, I can believe someone being convinced for these reasons), and I feel his posts are very much made in an attempt to solve the game. Would not lynch.
Rapier (YESSS, he's not really flaking yet) made some pretty sharp comments, and I like his reasoning overall. Likely town.
Athena: I liked Athenas start of trying to get things going, and his content till now has looked fine or good to me. I also feel scum Athena struggles more with producing meaningfull content and will generally stick too easy content, where town Athena feels a lot more natural. His current play clearly fits in the second category, imo.
Fenrir, Junk and Rad feel fine to me, but I really need to reread their content. Homework for N1 I guess.
Mackc2: I feel his later posts were a bit above average in terms of scumhunting and interacting with the thread for him, so I'm not really scumreading this slot. His general playstyle and
me not knowing his scum meta (roll scum already dude) make it more of null/slight town lean though.Zeonth catch up post wasn't bad, but I need to hear opinions about the second (and more intresting) half of the game before forming a real opinion on him. Or read it if it is actually already posted...
Xnad: Taking a step back, I'm more willing to believe he really just doesn't give any value to rvs (not an actual quote, but an interpretation), and as much as I disagree with his case on me,
I do think there's actual thought put into it. He also doesn't use his case on me as a reason to ignore other stuff, which I like. Basicly, a lot less sure about him being scum. Urgh, leaning
more towards null/slightly town right now, but that might swing over to any side in the next span of a day. (Did I mention I suck when I start to secondguess stuff).Satsuma: His content is low, but it's not a lot different from IDNSFMM, which makes me mostly null on him. I feel like he was slightly more cooperative then though, even though there was
less content from my memory, so small scum lean here.Evan's posts were bad, but about the same as last game I feel. He could be coasting since people seem to not want to lynch based purely on his lack of content, but that's mostly NAI right
now.I feel Fable's first real content post was scummy, because the case on Makaze was something he seems to have had in his mind for most of the game, and Evan hadn't posted in at least a day. He could have made that post a full day earlier without changing anything. This feels less like having trouble to get reads, and more like just not wanting to post for half a day. It would literaly not suprise me if he had that whole post written out a day in advance.
@Fable, I think you can respond to a case without me asking questions, but sure:
Why did you post those cases against Makaze and Evan at the time you did? Why not a full day earlier?
I'd prefer a Fable lynch at this point, but since that doesn't seem likely to happen, I'm a lot more in favor of Satsuma then any of the alternatives:
##Unvote
##Vote: @SatsumaFSoysoy
On 6/20/2018 at 5:00 PM, Bartozio said:I already mentioned I didn't mind you not having cases at the start of the game though. You did pick up there though, and I remember you posting suspision on Zeus or an early townread on Bibbons without seemingly waiting endlessly for it.
People will find a way it seems.
THANK YOU!
Fenrir Aesir
SpoilerOn 6/17/2018 at 7:15 PM, Fenrir Aesir said:FIRST
##Vote: XnadrojX
If I can't vote Len directly, this will have to do.
On 6/17/2018 at 7:31 PM, Fenrir Aesir said:It's a heart-wrenching tale of love and loss.
On 6/17/2018 at 7:58 PM, Fenrir Aesir said:I feel lonely. I need something to distract me from this trainwreck that is me DMing for the first time.
On 6/17/2018 at 8:11 PM, Fenrir Aesir said:If there were two guys on the moon and one of them killed the other with a rock...
On 6/17/2018 at 8:13 PM, Fenrir Aesir said:I agree. Vote all mentors :thumbsup:
On 6/17/2018 at 8:15 PM, Fenrir Aesir said:Nop ;;
Which is a little sad b/c I want to play with like half the people on the mentor list too.
On 6/17/2018 at 8:26 PM, Fenrir Aesir said:Fen^2 remains the best pair no matter what.
On 6/17/2018 at 8:28 PM, Fenrir Aesir said:NoU
On 6/18/2018 at 12:58 PM, Fenrir Aesir said:A few things that stand out to me so far:
-Junk asking why there's no RVS vote from EvanManManMan but not asking about Fable's lack of RVS.
-Athena and Xnad’s entrances.
Xnad's feels off in the sense of his entrance post (at the bottom of page 2) feeling like forced casuality, and his comment to Athena here:
"Stating a fact isn't a cop out though.
Saying you have a higher than random chance to roll opposing alignments because you were rolling opposing alignments before is a logical fallacy.
Saying you have a lower than random chance to roll opposing alignments because you were rolling opposing alignments before is also logical fallacy.
The laws of probability says that each individual roll is independent of one another, what are you trying to pull here?Also, you mentioned "a wealth of topics", this is just one topic and is pretty irrelevant to the game state on top of that."
feels disingenuous regardless of its accuracy. "What are you trying to pull here?" gives me mild shade-throwing vibes, as does your comment about how "this is just one topic and is pretty irrelevant to the game."
I like Athena much less though. I think she's trying way too hard to put forward "useful topics" and ask questions to look like she's scumhunting, but the questions themselves are things like:"Like for example, why hasn't SB posted a shitpost? Is it to shield his mentee Bartozio from an untimely RVS death? Is this alignment indicative?"
Which is (1) a serious reach and (2) not alignment indicative even if sb is trying to shield his mentor. I also don't like your putting forth questions like this without offering any potential answers or your own thoughts on them.His townread on Xnad also feels pockety, and I think he intended to use it to shut down the conversation with Xnad and dismiss his suspicions. When asked to elaborate on it by Bartozio he claims that the Xnad townread is because Xnad "wasn't hiding his annoyance" and that a "new scum player would hide their emotions." Neither Xnad nor anyone else in the game is a "newer player", and even if they were whether or not they were hiding their feelings would come down more to the player than their alignment-in fact Xnad doesn't even read to me as particularly annoyed in his response to you.
On 6/18/2018 at 1:05 PM, Fenrir Aesir said:@Rapier what are some examples of Athena trying to set up Bartozio as opposite to his alignment? I'm reading the interactions they have and finding it unlikely that a scum!Athena would so openly sheet their partner's vote.
On 6/18/2018 at 1:07 PM, Fenrir Aesir said:Oh wait. Do you mean to say you think Athena's intentionally sheeping it for that purpose?
If so, I'm not sure I agree that it would make them partners (nothing makes me think a scum!Athena would be any more likely to do it to town!Bartizio as opposed to scum!Bartozio).
On 6/18/2018 at 10:34 PM, Fenrir Aesir said:I don't think whether it was RVS or not matters either way, and the questions you asked Mackc/Bartozio aren't much better than the ones I quoted. Asking Bart what he thinks of Mack is a fairly generic question and NAI, and your questioning towards Mack is derived from him dropping in to comment and leaving-another reach in my opinion as you're making the argument that he felt the need to post without indicating what makes that scenario more likely than, for example, being unable to stay online or not finding anything of note.
To answer your second question here: Yes.
@Rapierany reactions you find to be AI?
@Junk I'm not 100% sure I agree on EMMM's first post feeling fake, it's mostly NAI to me. I have some other thoughts on him detailed later in this post, though. Also, what the "interesting point" you think I'm raising about Athena's townread on Xnad?
I would consider Xnad's question of "What are you trying to do here?" to be, if he's town, a suspicion. This ties into what Junk was saying about your reply of "It was a joke" feeling dismissive and is why I agree with him that the post in which you do that/townread him feels more like it's you trying to shut down the conversation as opposed to him. Your voting him on the same page without a reply is something I can see coming from scum!Athena if you were looking for a way to revoke the townread after seeing Bartozio mention how said townread felt weird (regardless of whether or not Bartozio himself suspects you for it-what I'm saying is that in the scenario where you're scum the switch to voting Xnad would be out of paranoia that others would find the townread weird but not like the reasoning). Can you walk me through what the motivation/rationale is for town!you to townread and then vote him?
@EvanManManMan any other reads currently? What do you think of Junk/Makaze's suspicion towards you? Why do you think Makaze had an FoS on you? I think you're either unintentionally or intentionally misinterpreting Junk's argument against you, as he made it pretty clear that the primary issue wasn't with your lack of an RVS vote but more to do with feeling your first post was a sort of fake confusion. I'm curious as to your Rapier vote as well and the case for town!Athena.
I'm going to post this part I have so far before continuing, as my computer's attempted to close me out of SF twice now while I've been typing this post.
On 6/18/2018 at 11:10 PM, Fenrir Aesir said:The issue I had with Junk lay more in his lack of asking Fable about RVS votes which was what I found potentially AI, but the differentiation Junk is making between EMMM and Fable as I understand it is that EMMM specifically mentioned his inability to get early reads but didn't RVS in an attempt to get some.
As I explained in my last post, Athena dropping the townread on Xnad doesn't negate the fact that it existed imo and in itself doesn't actually support the theory of town!Athena. Do you think Athena's town for that shift in opinion, and if so what about it reads town to you?
Felt like giving my two cents on this, as at the start of the game I found him to be energetic about starting but also not particularly urgent about finding reads, and combined I figured it was mostly a matter of playstyle. So far though, however, his enthusiasm's not been backed up with very much scumhunting-even the most recent post I can see at the time I'm typing this is a comment on something "not being interesting at all." What does qualify as interesting @Fable?
On 6/18/2018 at 11:13 PM, Fenrir Aesir said:Shortly put, I don't find Athena's vote on Xnad to be a towntell and as a result I'm confused with how Rad thinks I ignored said vote in order to push Athena.
On 6/18/2018 at 11:13 PM, Fenrir Aesir said:##Vote: @athena_57
On 6/19/2018 at 10:00 PM, Fenrir Aesir said::thumbsup:
The site's been crashing for me every time I go to try and post, but it should be fixed now. Catch-up time.
On 6/19/2018 at 10:34 PM, Fenrir Aesir said:Page 7:
@RADicate and @Makaze: I still think the townread being a pocket attempt is possible and that Athena voting him was a way of backtracking in response to Bartozio. Re: not initially mentioning the vote myself; I noticed it but was anticipating that Athena was about to further explain it because they were in the middle of a conversation with Rapier about it.
What do you think of Makaze's questions earlier towards Mackc2 re: EMMM? Those to me seem like he's trying to discern Mack's alignment.
What do you learn about each of us from Xnad flipping town vs. his flipping scum, and which do you think is more likely right now? I dislike this juxtaposed with a later post you made:
because both posts feel like you're just passively offering your support for a wagon but not backing it up with any kind of pressure/voting/questioning. The last line of the second post also feels like you're trying to give yourself an out to avoid voting Athena.
@athena_57 how am I "ignoring game-relevant stuff you've posted" when I reference your questions towards Mack/Bart in the exact post your quoting? I made it clear when I initially expressed my suspicion on you that the post I was quoting was but one example. Re: Mack people have to leave for various reasons and in some cases may not see anything of meaning in a conversation (if I recall Mack had a comment specifically to something of this effect). Why would he need to post for the sake of making a post when so much of the game was dead? Re: how the game should have started RVS is a clear option but RVS doesn't explicitly involve reaching.
Regardless of whether your initial post was a joke or not, what I'm saying is that I think you said it was a joke in order to avoid having to continue the discussion.
You're also saying now that your vote on Xnad was for pressure, so what do you think of his reaction to it now that you've unvoted?
On 6/19/2018 at 10:55 PM, Fenrir Aesir said:Page 8:
I'm mindmelding with Junk regarding the thought process here (indicated in my thoughts on page 7) and so a lesser extent his earlier read on Athena which came around the time mine did, so I have Junk as a townlean.
Okay, but why not accompany either of these with a vote when you initially brought up the suspicions? Your vote wouldn't have been locked and with Athena in particular isn't that something you'd want to pressure? You did vote Athena shortly after this, but it doesn't seem connected to your initial issue with Athena (as you specifically ask about Makaze).
Why bring this up? I'm assuming you think it affects your opinion on Makaze/his read on you, so how does it do so?
On 6/19/2018 at 11:29 PM, Fenrir Aesir said:What do you y'all think of Xnad's response to Bartozio? It feels weirdly confident in a way I haven't seen from him as either alignment, but his post where he's like "actually I can see why you'd do this as scum" feels aggressive in a town way-I think if he were scum he'd be content to leave it at "I can't see why you'd do this as scum."
On 6/20/2018 at 5:24 PM, Fenrir Aesir said:IDt I'll be able to be here for EoD; going to try to do a full reread of the game overnight. I'm on the Metro now though, so let's see how much I can get through.
@XnadrojX and @athena_57, what're your thoughts on each other? For something more specific, Xnad what do you think of Athena's initial townread on you and Athena what do you think of Xnad's response to Bartozio?
On 6/20/2018 at 5:47 PM, Fenrir Aesir said:@Rapier re: question about AIs, I mistakenly interpreted your earlier comment about Athena/Bartozio as serious, which was why I initially asked where you were heading with it. Is there a reaction you got that stood out to you wrt discerning Athena's alignment though?
I've established my having this sentiment already, but I feel like Fable's ignoring a lot of what Makaze says that doesn't relate to him (Fable) specifically. Yes, Makaze hasn't been explaining his reads initially but when prompted to he tends to give further insight, which goes against the idea that he "thinks he's above having to explain his reads." I also don't think Makaze seems concerned with "bulldogging a lynch," something which I referenced earlier (his questions towards Mackc2 seem focused towards determining alignments). I'm not sure what I think of this, as Fable seems primarily concerned with Makaze's attitude towards only Fable himself as opposed to the rest of the thread which is NAGL, but I also think scum!Fable is capable of making a better case if he's pushing for a Makaze lynch.
I'm switching trains, should be back on soon.
On 6/20/2018 at 6:22 PM, Fenrir Aesir said:See my earlier comment on why Athena may have switched to voting for Xnad as scum (being paranoid about receiving more suspicion than just Bart's). I also think what someone else mentioned about abandoning the pocket attempt because they saw Bartozio's case as having potential is a possibility and that Athena and Satsuma both have decently high chances of flipping scum. Where I'm at now probably looks something like Athena=Satsuma>Evan with Evan being not as strong a lean due to his current lack of content, and Makaze, Junk, and Xnad as town.
Does Fable have a reason to be uncooperative as town, though?
On 6/20/2018 at 6:48 PM, Fenrir Aesir said:There's a post where Bartozio votes Fable because "Fables cases feel like stuff he could have made at anytime," which I don't like considering that I can recall Bartozio being one of Fable's defenders with regards to Fable's lack of content earlier Day 1. I also think Makaze's theory that Athena is town trying new things out is possible, particular as an explanation for why town!Athena would suddenly vote Xnad.
@athena_57: "You appear to prefer other ways of breaking out of RVS, but do you think reaching in order to generate responses is inherently scummy or just a difference in playstyle?"
My inclination is to say that it's scummy, but your bringing this up makes me want to go back and weigh the odds it's playstyle
suddenly 15 minutes to dl and im walking to dnd and typing on comp oh boy
On 6/20/2018 at 6:49 PM, Fenrir Aesir said:That thing with needing 2/3 of the votes for a lynch
I would support a soysoy lynch currently so I will
##Vote: @SatsumaFSoysoy
On 6/21/2018 at 12:27 PM, Fenrir Aesir said:I literally just started my reread 10 minutes ago. Anticipate things.
22 hours ago, Fenrir Aesir said:On determining if Athena's first post is more likely to be trying to look proactive or trying to generate responses: they're asking questions pretty consistently throughout their ISO. The main issue I have is with their initial questions, which are barely related to the game and they were very quick to give Xnad a townlean based on his response (and then was also quick to shift to voting Xnad). I still think Athena's initial posts are scummy in a vacuum but the questions at least are in line with what seems to be their general playstyle (based on how in the rest of the ISO they seems to be asking questions about everything they can).
I like EvanManManMan's first post less while rereading just since when I think of why he'd comment on having no reads on page 2 but not do anything towards getting them I struggle to think of why he'd do so as town; I'm reading the rest of his iso now though. Also need to reread Mackc2 and Bartozio as I don't have very strong leanings on them either way and can't remember much of what they posted off the top of my head and look at the Rapier nightkill-from what I recall he was pretty widely townread but not to the extent that some others were.
One thing I really didn't like from EoD:
Rad unvotes SoySoy to "avoid hammer" and doesn't revote when informed there are only three minutes remaining. I can see him doing this as either alignment, but in his final post of the day he's suddenly like "if SoySoy flips town look for scum on that wagon" and it makes it feel a lot like he doesn't want to be caught on it at EoD. Fable has a similar comment on disliking the SoySoy wagon, but Fable was pretty consistent/vocal in his dislike of that wagon beforehand. In Rad's initial vote on SoySoy he asks, "What do you think about things; since your hanging out?" and then he doesn't speak to of reference SoySoy again until those last 3 posts. I think if Rad were town he'd've acknowledged/interacted with SoySoy to some extent after the initial vote. @Makaze, @Fable, and @athena_57, why were you townreading Rad day 1? I'd been assuming Makaze's at least to be a gut/tone read, but upon comparing his tone here to a couple of other games with him I found he's generally more casual/assertive than what I've seen here so far:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-mafia-invitational-redux-game-thread-game-over.3629685/page-90
http://ps-mafia.proboards.com/thread/537/countdown-gg-mafia
http://ps-mafia.proboards.com/thread/556/modified-execution-abandoned
Whereas in this thread he's been more controlled and reserved.
In the Smogon game in particular he's much better with interacting with his scumreads than he was here with SoySoy. I don't have a scumgame of his to compare this to though, so to the three I mentioned above and @RADicate do you think there's another potential explanation for this difference?22 hours ago, Fenrir Aesir said:I'm not used to seeing it in the way you did. like I can get asking questions about things to try and get them involved, but usually the questions I ask for that purpose are related more to playstyle. The main thing with your initial questions was that they were things like "What does it mean that sb's not shitposting yet?" which was something NAI and so I was like "What's the point of asking about this?"
9 hours ago, Fenrir Aesir said:EvanManManMan
First impression from what I can recall is that he's not reading the game in full (i.e. skimming). He talks about Junk scumreading him for not RVS voting even though Junk specified that he thought EMMM was faking confusion. He also has a moment where he accuses Makaze of using a mentality of "guilty until proven innocent" when Makaze scumreads him, which is inaccurate-Makaze didn't start off scumreading the entire game, only you and Fable.
These kinds of stances on RVS feel to me like someone who'd want to use RVS as a means of gaining reads, which makes his first post and the corrosponding lack of early analysis/prodding look worse. I dislike the way he defends himself from Fable by calling him scummy over a percieved playstyle difference (Fable "disliking RVS reads" is NAI) and later defends himself from Makaze with the above "guilty until proven innocent" comment and telling Makaze to "get that out of your head if you are town."
Votes Rapier because he found Rapier's early game "flat" and wants to see "something contentful" from there-I'd definitely say Rapier'd given content by EoD but in Evan's last post D1 he's apparently unconvinced. None of his other reads have changed from the last time he gave a readlist, which ik isn't explicitly bad but the lack of a comment on Rapier gives credence to the whole "Evan's not reading the game in full" theory.
Final impression on him is a scumlean. The main thing that gets me is the Rapier kill, but I can see scum!Evan deciding that a Rapier push is fruitless and acquiescing to the kill.
8 hours ago, Fenrir Aesir said:Fable
Standing by what I said earlier about his early play being a matter of playstyle. Reading over his earlier interaction with Makaze and weighing the odds of it coming from town vs. scum and still leaning towards the former. Pretty heavily self-focused view of the gamestate, which at the very least lines up with how intent he's been on "YOU MUST INTERACT WITH ME." I'm taking his whole frustration with that to be NAI.
I don't see what the scum equity would be for Fable to be so violently opposed to the Satsuma wagon, an opposition which started a while before EoD. Like I guess he'd get some towncred from defending Satsuma, but he's also pretty actively pushing for counterwagons to them right up to EoD and moves to Evan upon concluding a Makaze lynch isn't happening. I feel like as scum he'd be able to get away with just sticking to the Makaze tunnel until EoD and then start pushing Evan D2.
Went back to check a recent game of his on MU since I was having trouble making a strong opinion here even after reading the ISO.
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/search.php?searchid=1862240&pp=
Came to regret it somewhat because it moved me back towards neutral some. I was moving toward a townlean but his interactions with Superbia here are reminiscent of his interactions with Makaze, but then his tone is also, similar to what I mentioned about Rad earlier, significantly more controlled here. (This being a scumgame of his.)
Compared it to his towngame in IDNSFMM5.
"Oh I'm super brazen as a wolf but in a aggressively push mislynches for free wins kinda way."-Quote from there which made me think of the aggression here, albeit there's currently no way to know if what he's pushing is a mislynch (I think Makaze is town but Evan has a good chance to flip scum).I feel something like
With the final verdict being a townlean™ and wanting dead scum to compare his interactions with.
7 hours ago, Fenrir Aesir said:Mackc2
Discovered the existence of post numbers (!) while reading his ISO.
130/135: This is a combination I dislike. Mack's initially like "I don't have anything strong enough to claim anyone as town or scum" but when pressured further by Makaze he moves his vote to me. I could see a world in which town!Mack legitimatately didn't have any strong opinions one way or the other, but he identifies my not referencing Athena's vote as "something [he] would consider scum indicative," a comment that to me feels like he's Rad's case as if he was having the same thought.
251: At the time he mentioned this the only read he'd mentioned in thread was the one on me. I guess in this game it's possible he'd given other thoughts with his mentor, though.
270: There's a flip here from scumreading me and presumably townreading Athena (if he thought I was misrepresenting Athena) to the opposite here. Making a note as I read through the ISO so see how his opinion on Athena develops. @Mackc2 what were some examples of my posts that gave you a townlean?
274: I'm noticing a trend of small things that ping me about Mack. The way he suddenly jumps on this when he'd been beforehand looking at Athena/me feels opportunistic. We didn't get that "gathered evidence" about Athena before EoD1, and by day 2 Athena's Mack's top townlean. Athena being a townlean for Mack is a good look imo b/c I think scum Mack would see Athena as a potential mislynch (the obvious exception being if they're partnered). I wouldn't mind seeing Mack's thought process from gut scumlean to townlean here though.
277: Just something I couldn't let go of; I think the "I talked to my mentor about this and he said this" comment would be difficult to fake were Mack scum.
519: Would appreciate some more opinions from people on this post; I'm wondering why you wouldn't bring these things up in real time. The whole "posting for the sake of posting" thing, for example, was brought up pretty early Day 1.
527: Wouldn't mind your doing this analysis at some point, you had another comment earlier that was a passing "Fenrir's posts seem town" and I want to know how you've developed your own opinion.
534: The analysis of Bart not being scum unless Athena also is is another "I think this would be a difficult process to fake as scum" deal. Final verdict is that I think Mack's town who's discussing things with his mentor and as a result the full thought process isn't here in-thread (as opposed to being scum making leaps to avoid explaining things). I want to see some of his thought processes as mentioned above.
7 hours ago, Fenrir Aesir said:We gon' do everyone tonight friend, fear not. It's below my name: I've been waiting for this moment [not included: and have been kind of lazy with it thus far].
You like tryhard Fenrir, don't you Xnad?6 hours ago, Fenrir Aesir said:Bartozio
First off these quote walls jfc
77: Did you not find it interesting that Athena switched from townreading Xnad to sheeping your vote on them? Yes, it's been a pretty prominent topic if discussion now, but your reaction to it is somewhat underwhelming.
195:
Does this count as shade-throwing yet?
Your responses to Xnad in this and your subsequent posts feel a lot less like you're trying to determine his alignment and more like you're trying to discredit him. There's no entertaining of the possibility that he's town and you dismiss most of what he says with things like "Does this count as shade-throwing?" and trivializing his argument about logic leaps with an over-the-top reaction.
210: More of a general statement than relating this post, but he feels a too lenient towards Athena, even if he thinks Athena's town. It reminds me a lot of my first scumgame (which was also the first game I played on a forum and my partner got lynched Day 1 and it was this whole THING but anyway) where I made the mistake of, to paraphrase the person who caught it, "hardly considering people I'd listed as townreads." There's the thing mentioned in 77, and then here he doesn't take any issue with Athena's misinterpretation of his comment re: Fable. Obviously he doesn't have to flip his opinion 100%, but he kind of just takes it as it is without any questions. The closest he comes to hesitation on Athena is, "And yes, I read his response of "Joking". But... isn't that a pretty easy answer?" But he doesn't have a problem with Athena using this "easy answer" and instead continues going after Xnad for not questioning it. His interactions thus far have also been limited primarily to Xnad, and he doesn't seem concerned with the fact that there's pretty consistent suspicion on Athena.
280: The Fable vote is really bad; earlier you were talking about how "it's fine if Fable doesn't make reads early D1" and here you're like "it feels more like he's stalling."
335: The SoySoy vote is also bad as he calls SoySoy's playstyle similar to the IDNSFMM5 game but moves to SoySoy with barely any casing/pushing on Fable since his last post. His comment on Xnad here feels like backtracking because the push isn't gaining traction.
Ultimately have a fairly strong scumlean on Bartozio. I think a flip from him and/or Evan can aid in clearing up the Fable case.5 hours ago, Fenrir Aesir said:Makaze-Part I of ??
I generally like what I've seen from Makaze so far; I can remember several instances of his taking strong stances and trying to make others do the same.
119: Remember how I said I disagreed with Fable's assertion that Makaze wasn't concerned with figuring out alignments? This is the first post to be an example with his asking Mack what his goal is re: questioning Evan. I'm not going to reference every single post where Makaze has something to this effect of figuring out alignments, but this is the first example.
120: First example of trying to make people take stances/give opinions.
141: Going to do some tracking of his interaction with Fable. Starts out here as trying to get an idea of Fable's opinions.
151: Makaze clarifying Rad's question after calling me town is also a good look as it indicates he's looking at everything and not just 100% dismissing those he townreads from suspicion. Considered the chances of this being scum looking for an opening to push and I think if that were the case he wouldn't have mentioned the townread on me in the first place, as that would've been a prime chance for scum!Makaze to join the building pressure.
153/155/158: Have me somewhat like :thinking: re: Fable interactions; I get the gutread being strong but you seem confident enough in it here that whatever content Fable may put forth later wouldn't move you.
189: Goes more in-depth with the Fable read. @Makaze could you go more in-depth with the difference between his behavior here and in IDNSFMM5? I went back to read it myself and didn't notice any overwhelming differences in his tone that I could attribute to something aside from his frustration in this thread (something I find NAI).
213: To those of y'all who are familiar with Makaze's gameplay, is this sort of assertiveness characteristic of his playstyle? Very few seem to have much issue with it so I assume it is, but it's more forceful than what I'm used to seeing in general. Also a question Makaze himself could answer, I guess.
240: Continuing the Fable/Makaze interaction one thing I'm wanting to see from Makaze is something along the lines of going back and making an effort to answer to what Fable did ask instead of just "those weren't specific." I do distinctly recall something like this eventually happening.
260: Is the "something like this."
268: Is another :thinking: moment because of the "Why so defensive, why so angry?" bit. Do you think this defensiveness/anger is scummy/what are the chances of it being simple frustration?My computer needs to charge, so I'm going to do that and maybe sleep for like 30 minutes(?) before continuing.
-
Can you do a Bart or Fenrir ISO for me? I need to know how you handle being caught up as well as catching up.
-
4 minutes ago, EvanManManMan said:
Right now I have you Athena and Junk as solid town. I have Mack as lighter town. I originally townread Bart but apparently the stuff that I didn't read was scummy so not sure on that.
I don't remember anything that Rad or Zeo has done. Xandroj is null. I had them as scum but I kinda liked their tone in their recent stuff. It wasn't particularly strong either so i can't read them as town for it.
And then I have Fable as scum and you should know this.
I don't think I missed anybody here.
If not Fable, who are your second and third lynch choices?
Who do you think Fable is buddies with?
-
2 minutes ago, EvanManManMan said:
Because I'm town and you aren't
I think we've established our read on Fable.
What do you make of other people?
Do you have a reads list?
-
If you're not doing that, disregard, sorry for the shade.
-
In b4 he responds to that with anger...
Fable, if that's what you're about to do, I'd rather you didn't engage unless it's trying to understand each other, because otherwise it's a waste of time.
-
Now that Fenrir has delivered their reads, going to respond to their RADicate question.
I read a little bit of those games, @Fenrir, and I did see what you meant, but I still get strong towny vibes from RAD. It could be that they are being reserved because this is a mentor game, so it's not a strong case on its own, but something to consider if they do something else damning. TL;DR It's something, but it's weak.
14 hours ago, Junk said:Same with makaze. Unless I missed something fable still seems to be your favored read but no vote (unless I missed you giving a reason and if so sorry)
Should be obvious, I recently got called out for undermining my case by pushing it. I'm not going to press my own case because it has worn out by now, so it's going to be up to others if they find out he's scummy too.
4 hours ago, Fenrir Aesir said:189: Goes more in-depth with the Fable read. @Makaze could you go more in-depth with the difference between his behavior here and in IDNSFMM5? I went back to read it myself and didn't notice any overwhelming differences in his tone that I could attribute to something aside from his frustration in this thread (something I find NAI).
Sure. I went ahead and reread Fable's D1 there to make sure memory serves, he was definitively more relaxed than he is in this game. He did such things as:
SpoilerOn 4/10/2018 at 9:09 AM, Fable said:3 hours ago, Walrein said:oh and @Fable should post more cause I've been looking forward to playing with you again and cause this thread's too slow dammit, we need that MU FIRE
1. You post like 30 times a phase on MU so chill.
2. I don't know anybody here so I'm gonna be a lot slower with reads than I usually am that being said I'll catch up now and see if anything stands out.
On 4/10/2018 at 9:20 AM, Fable said:Okay so can we stop with the role spec? I don't think it's useful and I don't think anyone is gonna break the game that way.
I'll give vague village leans on Walrein, Athena, Eclipse, and Vi for trying to have reads early which feels bad but it's what I got rn.
On 4/10/2018 at 9:45 PM, Fable said:Someone tell me who to sheep.
On 4/10/2018 at 9:56 PM, Fable said:It was me asking who I should sheep (voting me doesn't answer the question ftr).
On 4/11/2018 at 12:16 AM, Fable said:Not much?
Feel like Athena might have kept pressing if he was a wolf? Satsuma's responses were kinda blah (though not unreasonable) so it's not like he gave athena much of a reason to back off, I would have kept going if I were a wolf in that situation anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I can understand why satsuma's posts are meh but all that means is I'd give him more time, I don't think any of the responses were overtly villagery.
On 4/11/2018 at 1:26 AM, Fable said:NGL I did wonder if JB got jebaited by my post..
Like compare eclipse response to me to his and it's pretty terrible. I don't mind getting told I'm not doing well because that's not incorrect but the attitude of "no I got you" instead of trying to engage is a bad one.
On 4/11/2018 at 4:04 PM, Fable said:Bibbon is village, glad I can cross that concern of the list.
The overall attitude is that he is not aggressive, not defensive, and he spits out town reads on the fly based on his gut reactions, very similar to the way I have been ("X is town" out of nowhere, no quotes, etc)
His entire demeanor in this Day 1 is very different. He's tense, defensive, and is more concerned with pushing suspicions than creating a town core. He even goes so far as to insult other players and say they need to get gut. It's a completely different attitude toward the players despite having a lot of the same members and it makes no sense to me.
That, and it feels bad. Which is what set me on it.
Quote213: To those of y'all who are familiar with Makaze's gameplay, is this sort of assertiveness characteristic of his playstyle? Very few seem to have much issue with it so I assume it is, but it's more forceful than what I'm used to seeing in general. Also a question Makaze himself could answer, I guess.
Not sure if this is a good answer, but this was my first handful of posts in IDNSFMM5:
SpoilerOn 4/15/2018 at 11:35 AM, Makaze said:Hello everyone I am town and I literally have not read anything other than the OP.
I may claim if it becomes necessary but for right now I'd like to see a votecount and to see links to important cases so that I jump into the game without major upsets. Currently checking people who have flipped.
Any confirmed town's opinions preferred over people being voted.
-MakazeOn 4/15/2018 at 11:55 AM, Makaze said:Towny entrance seeming in the same boat as me,
going to consider Kaoz town until further notice.
I think athena is town because of advanced lack of TMI. Reasoning: The following post simply could not have been made and make sense as someone who controls the kill orders. It would be TMI if either of Via or eclipse got killed, but since neither did, this reads as genuine reasoning that requires him to be uninformed and out of control of the target. Seems too advanced for most people to fake, let alone newbs.On 4/15/2018 at 11:59 AM, Makaze said:Reading eclipse now.
TMI = Too Much Information
Mafia have information on the actual reasoning of the mafia kill. They are much less likely to have complex speculations that to incorrect death guesses. When you are making up a claim like this, it rarely makes this much sense. If eclipse or via had been killed, then this post would look bad for him, but since they didn't, I think it makes perfect sense from a town POV, when he really has no idea what scum is thinking. i.e. he's guessingOn 4/15/2018 at 12:12 PM, Makaze said:Having read eclipse's ISO...
I am not impressed? All of their reads are surface level to me.I am reminded of the only thing in athena's ISO that bothered me: some weird comment about how eclipse is town-y because she has "honest" scumhunting (quotes his, not mine). @athena_57 Can you give a quote or two that you feel are honest from eclipse's ISO?
@eclipse Can you give your top three scum reads, and maybe at least a basic analysis of if they could conceivably be scum together?
On 4/15/2018 at 12:33 PM, Makaze said:Based on the ISO I just read, I don't necessarily think she is attacking people for bad play over scummy play, but, she isn't reading very deep into her cases. Her cases seem passive in a sense. Like that post about soft tells. It isn't about athena. It's about what soft tells are. Later she says "I ignored a soft tell last time and it was a scum, never again". If she is reading deeper intents behind things, I don't believe it shows in her actions.
On 4/15/2018 at 12:35 PM, Makaze said:One of the especially important things I'm seeing is how she says her things is associative reads. I haven't seen anything remotely like that line or reasoning from her. All of her votes are completely disconnected. I'm asking her to produce some. Hopefully that will change my mind.
On 4/15/2018 at 12:40 PM, Makaze said:What bothers me more is that I think eclipse's behavior itself is the soft tell she's talking about...
In that she's randomly pressuring people for what I consider weak reasons and I don't think she's actually anywhere near scum hunting. She's just going for the easiest target she sees, is how it looks to me. Which can find scum sometimes... Just not impressive, easy to do as any alignment.Quote268: Is another :thinking: moment because of the "Why so defensive, why so angry?" bit. Do you think this defensiveness/anger is scummy/what are the chances of it being simple frustration?
This feeds into my answer to the first question, but yes, I think it's scummy. He's not trying to interact with me or create a town core, and he has pretty much taken to hating on me because of how sure I am instead of how scummy I am. Town motivation is to re-evaluate if you aren't sure of my alignment, or to at least interact to bring new information, which I have tried to do. When I am scum read, I tend to think "What is this person thinking, and why?" and if I think they genuinely scum read me, I try to appeal to their instincts, and give them something else to believe in: that I am having genuine thoughts too (usually by casing someone else).
Fable is just responding to everything I say with anger and "LOL nice shade bro", and it seems to go beyond OMGUS and into "I have to push his lynch until it happens" territory. Where I have moved on from my D1 case and have been trying to interact with him, he is the one who is shutting down this phase.
His anger after having the Night to think about it is irrational as town, and scummy as scum. I'm assuming he's not irrational.
-
##Vote: @Zeonth
I have a feeling the best pressure we can apply to him is with votes, otherwise we'll wall post toward EOD again.
Training Mafia 3.0: Advanced - GAMEOVER
in Mafia
Posted
Yeah man, you're beginning to sound like Fable:
I am feeling a lot better about Evan and Bart both after interacting.
Evan more so. I think he genuinely annoyed and busy, and he is responding perfectly as he would if he were town in this scenario.
Back to Zeo
##Vote: @Zeonth