FE9 Tier list v3

[Anouleth]

I'm not sure how putting BEXP on one of our worst characters is 'helping us'. Ilyana is possibly the worst choice in the entirety of earlygame to give BEXP, since it's not going to make her durable or fix her movement issues. For example, how many levels of BEXP does she need to double reliably in Chapter 11? She needs to be level sixteen to double half the cavaliers, and she needs about the same level to 1-round Knights as well. She's had one chapter to get some experience. So are we going to dump more than 900 BEXP on her (about a third of our reserves at this stage) for her to perform mediocre, then when Tormod shows up deny him a similiar cut of the BEXP because she's been using that BEXP to 'help us'?

Come on, Narga. We have 2000 BEXP just from Chapters 14 and 15. The BEXP exists, so it's not like we need to 'save' Ilyana's BEXP. Tormod's team can go and spend Ilyana's BEXP on someone else like Marcia or Mia, and when Tormod appears right after the C15 windfall, split it between him/Astrid/Makalov.

Wait, I made a mistake. Ilyana is probably a better choice than Rolf for BEXP, but still worse than... everyone else on the entire team.

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm not sure how putting BEXP on one of our worst characters is 'helping us'. Ilyana is possibly the worst choice in the entirety of earlygame to give BEXP, since it's not going to make her durable or fix her movement issues. For example, how many levels of BEXP does she need to double reliably in Chapter 11? She needs to be level sixteen to double half the cavaliers, and she needs about the same level to 1-round Knights as well. She's had one chapter to get some experience. So are we going to dump more than 900 BEXP on her (about a third of our reserves at this stage) for her to perform mediocre, then when Tormod shows up deny him a similiar cut of the BEXP because she's been using that BEXP to 'help us'?

Come on, Narga. We have 2000 BEXP just from Chapters 14 and 15. The BEXP exists, so it's not like we need to 'save' Ilyana's BEXP. Tormod's team can go and spend Ilyana's BEXP on someone else like Marcia or Mia, and when Tormod appears right after the C15 windfall, split it between him/Astrid/Makalov.

Wait, I made a mistake. Ilyana is probably a better choice than Rolf for BEXP, but still worse than... everyone else on the entire team.

Perhaps you don't understand how much bexp there is. I mean, you seem to when commenting on Tormod, but Ilyana isn't taking anyone else's bexp. Get your units up to a level of performance. At that point, it is better to give some of what remains to Ilyana. If you get Oscar up to the point he doubles nearly everything and can ORKO stuff, then clearly giving him an extra 100 bexp is less valuable than giving 100 bexp to Ilyana. Why? Because the improvement on her is more than the improvement on him. You've already given him a bunch of bexp to get him there, so don't tell me we aren't giving him some, too. But eventually you'll get everyone to a level such that if Ilyana is on the team 100 bexp does us more good on her than it does on anyone else, not just Oscar. This is the only bexp I'm asking you to give her, and there is still plenty of it. Ilyana isn't depriving any other unit because of the units we are using they don't benefit as much from additional bexp above and beyond what they already took.

Hence, when you get to chapter 16, you are looking at a level 19 Ilyana and a level 7 Tormod. Maybe even a 20/1 Ilyana or something. How much bexp does it take to get Tormod to level 15? ~838, assuming you take him to 99 exp in level 7 and then give him sets of 100 until reaching 14.99 and give him 1. Level 19 Ilyana gets to around 20/5 or something if you get her to level 20 and seal her like you are sealing Tormod (doesn't matter when) and then more bexp. Hence, if you want to make a fair comparison, look at 20/5 Ilyana vs. 15/1 Tormod.

15/1 Tormod, assuming you are right:

28HP 5.6STR 15.6MAG 14.2SKL 14.6SPD 10.8LUK 8DEF 14.6RES

20/5 Ilyana:

32.1 7.5 18 20.1 16.4 14.1 7.7 21

Ilyana wins by:

4.1 hp, 1.9 str, 2.4 mag, 5.9 skl, 1.8 spd, 3.3 lck, 6.4 res. Only loses by .3 def but has some supports built so I'm sure Ilyana is looking at a tie or win rather than a loss there anyway.

Forgive me if I don't see Tormod winning this. Ilyana could easily have a Zihark support if you don't like Brom's move or Muarim's demi-band reliance (or both) and if you like neither of those things then Ilyana could even reach an A eventually. Now, Tormod's Reyson support is pretty much indisputable and I suppose he has a shot at Calill beomg around, but I don't think that's going to swing this.

[Anouleth]

Perhaps you don't understand how much bexp there is. I mean, you seem to when commenting on Tormod, but Ilyana isn't taking anyone else's bexp. Get your units up to a level of performance. At that point, it is better to give some of what remains to Ilyana. If you get Oscar up to the point he doubles nearly everything and can ORKO stuff, then clearly giving him an extra 100 bexp is less valuable than giving 100 bexp to Ilyana. Why? Because the improvement on her is more than the improvement on him. You've already given him a bunch of bexp to get him there, so don't tell me we aren't giving him some, too. But eventually you'll get everyone to a level such that if Ilyana is on the team 100 bexp does us more good on her than it does on anyone else, not just Oscar. This is the only bexp I'm asking you to give her, and there is still plenty of it. Ilyana isn't depriving any other unit because of the units we are using they don't benefit as much from additional bexp above and beyond what they already took.

Why can't this same standard apply to Tormod? If anything, because Tormod joins at a stage where most units do not really need BEXP to turn into ORKOing machines, the BEXP he takes has a lower opportunity cost.

And apparently, Ilyana isn't really depriving other units when she's taken a third of our BEXP and she's still bad. I'm aware we have tons and tons of BEXP lying around. That does not mean that it's free. Unless we have enough BEXP to get EVERY person we can deploy on our team to ORKOing territory, it has a price. Even if it does not have an initial price, we can even save it and dump it on Marcia or Jill or Astrid or Makalov or even Tormod - you can make the case that it isn't the best use of the BEXP, but for you to act like it's completely free is just wrong. It still has an opportunity cost.

What exactly is Ilyana going to do with that BEXP anyway? C10 is stealth, C11 is arrive and she probably can't even reach the frontlines, C12 is Ravens, C13 is defend, C14 is kill boss, she can't really keep up with the others so she's unlikely to do much there either, C14 is going to be 2-turned with Marcia. Wow, I sure am glad I put all that BEXP on Ilyana instead of saving it for Tormod.

So Ilyana is paying an opportunity cost for taking that extra BEXP - and she's doing NOTHING with it, or at the very least, nothing I couldn't do with literally any other character I have in C10.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

IIRC, I suggested early promotion for Soren and Ilyana and that's how they moved up.

Cue the "History repeats itself" proof.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Speedwagon

[Narga_Rocks]

Why can't this same standard apply to Tormod? If anything, because Tormod joins at a stage where most units do not really need BEXP to turn into ORKOing machines, the BEXP he takes has a lower opportunity cost.

The difference is that I'm not giving bexp to Ilyana instead of Oscar and using it to say Ilyana > Oscar. Think, if Ilyana and Tormod start at level 19 and level 7, and you suggest Ilyana doesn't need bexp to perform and thus you give more to Tormod and then suggest that Tormod > Ilyana because Tormod w/ bexp > Ilyana without, how does that work? Mia shot up because Mia w/ bexp was better than what she rose over with bexp. saving bexp from chapter 8 until Geoffrey shows up, for example, is clearly inferior to giving bexp to Mia. And the claim (true or not) that got Mia > soren for a while was that bexp on Mia was more useful than bexp on soren. Not that soren didn't need any and after Mia got some, Mia > soren. The idea was that Mia was putting it to better use. Thus I ask you, does 15/1 Tormod look at all better than 20/5 Ilyana? If the answer is no, then "this same standard" does not apply to Tormod in comparison with Ilyana. You can't give Tormod more than you are willing to give to Ilyana and then state Tormod > Ilyana unless Tormod > Ilyana holds true when both are given the same amount in chapter 16.

If Tormod needs this bexp to be better than Ilyana without it then clearly he isn't better because it could go to Ilyana. The same would apply if I tried to say Mia > Oscar and used the fact that I stop leveling Oscar and Mia at level 10 with bexp in chapter 8. If Mia starts at level 6 and Oscar at level 8 and then I say level 10 Mia > level 10 Oscar and therefore Mia > Oscar, that would be wrong. I'd have to look at level 11 or 12 Oscar compared to level 10 Mia and see what happens. After analyzing that question, if Mia sitll wins, then I could suggest leaving Oscar at level 10 to conserve bexp if level 12 Oscar doesn't give us anything level 10 Oscar doesn't. And I could say Mia > Oscar. But that's not even close to what you are doing. You are effectively saying Tormod w/ tons of bexp > Ilyana without tons of bexp. Well duh.

[Anouleth]

The difference is that I'm not giving bexp to Ilyana instead of Oscar and using it to say Ilyana > Oscar. Think, if Ilyana and Tormod start at level 19 and level 7, and you suggest Ilyana doesn't need bexp to perform and thus you give more to Tormod and then suggest that Tormod > Ilyana because Tormod w/ bexp > Ilyana without, how does that work? Mia shot up because Mia w/ bexp was better than what she rose over with bexp. saving bexp from chapter 8 until Geoffrey shows up, for example, is clearly inferior to giving bexp to Mia. And the claim (true or not) that got Mia > soren for a while was that bexp on Mia was more useful than bexp on soren. Not that soren didn't need any and after Mia got some, Mia > soren. The idea was that Mia was putting it to better use. Thus I ask you, does 15/1 Tormod look at all better than 20/5 Ilyana? If the answer is no, then "this same standard" does not apply to Tormod in comparison with Ilyana. You can't give Tormod more than you are willing to give to Ilyana and then state Tormod > Ilyana unless Tormod > Ilyana holds true when both are given the same amount in chapter 16.

Ilyana does not start at level 19, though. She starts at level 6. She is not going to gain 13 levels in her extra 7 chapters of availability - she is not even going to gain seven. She needs BEXP to be given to her. Now, even with BEXP, Ilyana is not going to save us any turns in Chapters 9 to 15. So there is no reason that we cannot save it and give it to Tormod. If Ilyana can appropiate 700 BEXP or whatever in Chapter 9, then we can save 700 BEXP and give it to Tormod - either way, it's not helping us in Chapters 9 to 15.

Unless you can prove that the BEXP will save us turns, Ilyana will take the full price for that BEXP we give her in Chapter 9. Now, it's easy to show that giving BEXP to Mia instead of Geoffrey is more useful. But is Ilyana being level 16 instead of 9 in Chapter 12 going to save us a turn? No. What about Chapter 11? Chapter 13? Chapter 15? No, no, and no. Now, th difference between BEXP Ilyana and Regular Ilyana could very well save us an entire turn in either C14 or C9, but I seriously doubt you can prove it. And if giving that BEXP to Ilyana does not save us turns, we may as well save it and give it to someone who turns out better... like Tormod.

If Tormod needs this bexp to be better than Ilyana without it then clearly he isn't better because it could go to Ilyana. The same would apply if I tried to say Mia > Oscar and used the fact that I stop leveling Oscar and Mia at level 10 with bexp in chapter 8. If Mia starts at level 6 and Oscar at level 8 and then I say level 10 Mia > level 10 Oscar and therefore Mia > Oscar, that would be wrong. I'd have to look at level 11 or 12 Oscar compared to level 10 Mia and see what happens. After analyzing that question, if Mia sitll wins, then I could suggest leaving Oscar at level 10 to conserve bexp if level 12 Oscar doesn't give us anything level 10 Oscar doesn't. And I could say Mia > Oscar. But that's not even close to what you are doing. You are effectively saying Tormod w/ tons of bexp > Ilyana without tons of bexp. Well duh.

Mia and Oscar need different levels of resources to reach level 10 each. Tormod does need more resources in order to reach Ilyana's level... but, even when she leads by five levels, he is still comparable to her in terms of stats and wins in movement, so he's obviously better.

My main issue here is with you trying to handwave Ilyana taking BEXP in Chapter 9. Unless you are seriously suggesting that Ilyana can gain thirteen levels in 7 chapters, two of which we will clear pacificistically, she will need BEXP - a lot - in order to reach level 19 by Chapter 16. I am simply suggesting that Tormod get a similiar amount of BEXP as Ilyana.

[-Cynthia-]

IIRC, I suggested early promotion for Soren and Ilyana and that's how they moved up.

Cue the "History repeats itself" proof.

This is important. An early Sealed Ilyana gives us much better offense than Mist or Rhys (even Sealed), and comparable to Soren. It also gives her Staves, so Ilyana picks up a lot of utility in C11-C15 where Tormod isn't around, since she's the best staff user you have (arguably Soren is better if you Sealed him first).

Why then, can't we early promote Tormod to gain similar results? The opportunity cost of the Seal is higher for Tormod, since we have to wait until C16 to use it, Ilyana can use it immediately.

[Narga_Rocks]

Ilyana does not start at level 19, though. She starts at level 6. She is not going to gain 13 levels in her extra 7 chapters of availability - she is not even going to gain seven. She needs BEXP to be given to her. Now, even with BEXP, Ilyana is not going to save us any turns in Chapters 9 to 15. So there is no reason that we cannot save it and give it to Tormod. If Ilyana can appropiate 700 BEXP or whatever in Chapter 9, then we can save 700 BEXP and give it to Tormod - either way, it's not helping us in Chapters 9 to 15.

Unless you can prove that the BEXP will save us turns, Ilyana will take the full price for that BEXP we give her in Chapter 9. Now, it's easy to show that giving BEXP to Mia instead of Geoffrey is more useful. But is Ilyana being level 16 instead of 9 in Chapter 12 going to save us a turn? No. What about Chapter 11? Chapter 13? Chapter 15? No, no, and no. Now, th difference between BEXP Ilyana and Regular Ilyana could very well save us an entire turn in either C14 or C9, but I seriously doubt you can prove it. And if giving that BEXP to Ilyana does not save us turns, we may as well save it and give it to someone who turns out better... like Tormod.

Mia and Oscar need different levels of resources to reach level 10 each. Tormod does need more resources in order to reach Ilyana's level... but, even when she leads by five levels, he is still comparable to her in terms of stats and wins in movement, so he's obviously better.

My main issue here is with you trying to handwave Ilyana taking BEXP in Chapter 9. Unless you are seriously suggesting that Ilyana can gain thirteen levels in 7 chapters, two of which we will clear pacificistically, she will need BEXP - a lot - in order to reach level 19 by Chapter 16. I am simply suggesting that Tormod get a similiar amount of BEXP as Ilyana.

I present:

http://fegenesis.forummotion.com/path-of-radiance-f5/sandbag-mia-topic-t34.htm#208

Check Ilyana's level. Notice the large amount of bexp left. No idea precisely how much was spent on Ilyana throughout the playthrough, but I'm pretty sure that in chapter 16 had he wanted he could have dumped bexp on either Tormod or Ilyana and applying x bexp to get Tormod to level 15/1 would have gotten Ilyana to 20/5 like I said. You can't think that if you chose Ilyana to be part of your team of 8 that you'd be better off not giving her any bexp along the way to keep her level near the levels of your other units.

Now, remember that Ilyana doesn't have to be on Tormod's team and vice versa. Are you suggesting that Tormod's team is going to use 8 characters, not spend his bexp from chapter 8 until 15, and be better off than some team that uses his bexp? I doubt that very much. Hence, Tormod's team and Ilyana's team would probably have about the same amount of bexp lying around come chapter 16. And if you can give 838 bexp to Tormod then I can give 838 bexp to Ilyana.

Or heck, we could just seal Ilyana in chapter 11 or whatever like other people are suggesting. It's not a horrible idea and if you have elwind that's still an 8 mt spell on Ravens. Promotion gets her to D Wind.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

This is important. An early Sealed Ilyana gives us much better offense than Mist or Rhys (even Sealed), and comparable to Soren. It also gives her Staves, so Ilyana picks up a lot of utility in C11-C15 where Tormod isn't around, since she's the best staff user you have (arguably Soren is better if you Sealed him first).

Why then, can't we early promote Tormod to gain similar results? The opportunity cost of the Seal is higher for Tormod, since we have to wait until C16 to use it, Ilyana can use it immediately.

How sweet of you to prove my second sentence wrong <3

To add on to that, while anyone else who shows up when you have the Seals could use them too, the opportunity cost is basically the same for everyone while the output's divided into 4 groups.

#1: Superfluous. Boyd and Oscar are examples of this group, giving them the seal is just boosting units that are already too capable at this point in the game. It's like

#2: Combat only. Mia and any other combat unit. Plain and simple.

#3: Combat + Staff utility. Ilyana, Soren and Rhys fall in this one. Basically, they get more out of it, specially for Soren and Ilyana.

#4: Combat + Staff utility but then pretty useless in a certain map that some would rather pass on giving her the Seal. Mist, desert chapter, that oughta be enough.

Those under group 3 would "suffer" from slow EXP gain while Soren and Ilyana have Staff use to remedy this. Then I also remember pointing out that they should be able to get C in staves without too much trouble either during the chapter with the first Physic staff or shortly after that. Any BEXP requirement to reach promotion at the time of the seals would be pretty minimal considering Soren's got some use in the earlygame and Ilyana starts at level 6 and still has a few chapters to act in.

Or heck, we could just seal Ilyana in chapter 11 or whatever like other people are suggesting. It's not a horrible idea and if you have elwind that's still an 8 mt spell on Ravens. Promotion gets her to D Wind.

It's probably even better for them when you consider Paladins in the playthrough. Basically, it'd be a choice between being good while you don't have the Paladins stealing the spotlight, or wait till later for promotion only to end up the equivalent or worse of FE4 foot units among promoted mounted units with a very limited Sylvia/Lynn/Laylea.

Edited May 10, 2010 by Speedwagon

[-Cynthia-]

I would argue that Soren/Ilyana getting staves (partially due to getting the same SEXP before and after promotion)is better than the combat boosts ohter units receive, but you're right, Tormod also denies them Seal use for some chapters.

[Snowy_One]

Forgive my idiocy, but I do wonder this. When Soren/Ilyana/Tormod promote and if they gain staves and actively use said staves, they gain EXP that basically cost the party nothing. It does not detract from the limited amount of Cexp or Bexp there is available and is always helpful. Is that being taken into account or left by the wayside? Technically, assuming a unit only used high-end staves, they could be set for EXP without touching Bexp or Cexp again.

[Narga_Rocks]

Forgive my idiocy, but I do wonder this. When Soren/Ilyana/Tormod promote and if they gain staves and actively use said staves, they gain EXP that basically cost the party nothing. It does not detract from the limited amount of Cexp or Bexp there is available and is always helpful. Is that being taken into account or left by the wayside? Technically, assuming a unit only used high-end staves, they could be set for EXP without touching Bexp or Cexp again.

Um, since when was there an exp rank to care about? exp is only good for what you get out of it: better ability to waste enemies. The more they heal the less they are attacking and thus the less we care what their level is. Hence they attack more which uses less of this "free exp" and it doesn't matter as much anyway. Either way, the advantage is minor at best. Plus there is the possibility, however small, that you are trying to get exp for Mist to make her able to kill things with sonic sword. she has the potential to be faster than most mages anyway so it's not like she is just being made to do what they already can.

Plus the high end staves aren't exactly there to gain exp. They are there to do things. In a quick play I doubt you are stealing every single sleep/silence/physic staff that exists such that they can use those for fun. I don't think that there is a huge exp pool for them nor do I think they would get much credit for it anyway. I don't particularly care if Boyd/Oscar/whoever is taking exp away from other units so why should I care where it comes from?

Besides, it's not like Tormod can start out with this. If you jump him to 15/1 with bexp and then just have him spam what Mist/Rhys can already spam without blowing all that bexp I don't see him crawling out of the hole we dug for him any time soon.

[Anouleth]

I present:

http://fegenesis.forummotion.com/path-of-radiance-f5/sandbag-mia-topic-t34.htm#208

Check Ilyana's level. Notice the large amount of bexp left. No idea precisely how much was spent on Ilyana throughout the playthrough, but I'm pretty sure that in chapter 16 had he wanted he could have dumped bexp on either Tormod or Ilyana and applying x bexp to get Tormod to level 15/1 would have gotten Ilyana to 20/5 like I said. You can't think that if you chose Ilyana to be part of your team of 8 that you'd be better off not giving her any bexp along the way to keep her level near the levels of your other units.

Yet he almost certainly did give Ilyana some amount of BEXP, unless she's somehow gaining 15 levels in 7 chapters. I think claiming he gave her 800BEXP at some point is pretty realistic.

And I'm not claiming you shouldn't give Ilyana BEXP. Just that if we're comparing her to Tormod, you can't pretend she pops into existence at level 20/01 and doesn't cost anything to get there. I can't go ahead and hand all the BEXP in the Dawn Brigade to Edward and when Zihark turns up pretend it never happened.

Because that's what you're doing, pointing to a high levelled Ilyana and pretending she took no effort to get there. When the real case is:

-Ilyana eats BEXP in Chapter 9 to no longer suck

-Ilyana is still horribly mediocre until Chapter 15

Obviously if Ilyana was recruited at 20/01 in Chapter 15, she'd be better than Tormod. Way better. As it is, you can give all that chapter 9 BEXP to Tormod in Chapter 15 - and you don't lose ANYTHING since that BEXP doesn't help us between Chapter 9 and 15 on Ilyana.

Now, remember that Ilyana doesn't have to be on Tormod's team and vice versa. Are you suggesting that Tormod's team is going to use 8 characters, not spend his bexp from chapter 8 until 15, and be better off than some team that uses his bexp? I doubt that very much. Hence, Tormod's team and Ilyana's team would probably have about the same amount of bexp lying around come chapter 16. And if you can give 838 bexp to Tormod then I can give 838 bexp to Ilyana.

A team that uses 7 characters (and some filler character like Lethe) and doesn't spend his BEXP from Chapter 9 to 15 is probably roughly equal to one who uses Ilyana + 7 characters and gives her the BEXP instead. Unless you want to (finally) show me how Ilyana is saving us any turns or helping us at all between Chapter 9 and 15. You still haven't.

And this is really the case - you think we can just hand Ilyana whatever we want in Chapters 9 to 15 and forget about it when Tormod shows up. Why don't we give her a Speedwing and a Seraph Robe, too? I mean, we'd probably use it whether we're using Ilyana or not, so why should Tormod care?

Or heck, we could just seal Ilyana in chapter 11 or whatever like other people are suggesting. It's not a horrible idea and if you have elwind that's still an 8 mt spell on Ravens. Promotion gets her to D Wind.

Why bother? Rhys is healing better, Soren can use Elwind just as effectively and doesn't need a Seal. We only have one Elwind tome available, so why should we promote Ilyana for her +1 or 2 magic lead on Soren using it?

Even early promoted, Ilyana is still not pulling her weight relative to the rest of the team. She cannot eat 600 BEXP for free just because she exists in Chapter 9 and Tormod doesn't.

Edited May 10, 2010 by Anouleth

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Why bother? Rhys is healing better, Soren can use Elwind just as effectively and doesn't need a Seal. We only have one Elwind tome available, so why should we promote Ilyana for her +1 or 2 magic lead on Soren using it?

While an early promoted Ilyana/Soren is healing sufficiently and doing better in combat than Rhys if he were to get that Seal instead. As for the Elwind, she can use it if Soren isn't.

Even early promoted, Ilyana is still not pulling her weight relative to the rest of the team. She cannot eat 600 BEXP for free just because she exists in Chapter 9 and Tormod doesn't.

Any BEXP requirement to reach promotion at the time of the seals would be pretty minimal considering Soren's got some use in the earlygame and Ilyana starts at level 6 and still has a few chapters to act in.

That and she has "less competition" for that BEXP than Tormod does for his.

Edited May 10, 2010 by Speedwagon

[Narga_Rocks]

Yet he almost certainly did give Ilyana some amount of BEXP, unless she's somehow gaining 15 levels in 7 chapters. I think claiming he gave her 800BEXP at some point is pretty realistic.

And I'm not claiming you shouldn't give Ilyana BEXP. Just that if we're comparing her to Tormod, you can't pretend she pops into existence at level 20/01 and doesn't cost anything to get there. I can't go ahead and hand all the BEXP in the Dawn Brigade to Edward and when Zihark turns up pretend it never happened.

Because that's what you're doing, pointing to a high levelled Ilyana and pretending she took no effort to get there. When the real case is:

-Ilyana eats BEXP in Chapter 9 to no longer suck

-Ilyana is still horribly mediocre until Chapter 15

Obviously if Ilyana was recruited at 20/01 in Chapter 15, she'd be better than Tormod. Way better. As it is, you can give all that chapter 9 BEXP to Tormod in Chapter 15 - and you don't lose ANYTHING since that BEXP doesn't help us between Chapter 9 and 15 on Ilyana.

Except she doesn't suck in chapter 9 or chapter 11 or chapter 13 or chapter 14. Even chapter 12 she can fight decently with elthunder if you don't promote her and you keep her from getting attacked. That bexp is still making her perform better and double some things she isn't otherwise. Also, it's not like you aren't giving exp to everyone else along the way anyway. This is nothing like dumping all your bexp on Edward. There is a huge cost to doing so outside of consideration for Zihark. Ed would actually be depriving everyone else before Zihark arrives of bexp (not to mention there isn't actually all that much in HM in part 1 and thus it wouldn't do much to close the gap anyway). Ilyana deprives her teammates of nothing. I pointed out that once they get their bexp that giving an extra 100 bexp to them is inferior to giving 100 bexp to Ilyana. You mention nothing of the sort with Edward vs. other DB members before Zihark arrives. Your attempt at a parallel fails. That isn't "what I'm doing", so don't act like it is. If I justify something, or at least attempt to, you can't throw any random thing out there with no reasoning for why it is okay and then say "that's what you're doing". It isn't. Tell me why it is superior to sit on 500 bexp for 7 chapters rather than use it.

A team that uses 7 characters (and some filler character like Lethe) and doesn't spend his BEXP from Chapter 9 to 15 is probably roughly equal to one who uses Ilyana + 7 characters and gives her the BEXP instead. Unless you want to (finally) show me how Ilyana is saving us any turns or helping us at all between Chapter 9 and 15. You still haven't.

Why wouldn't Ilyana's team be using 8 + some filler character like Lethe? Or even 8 including Lethe? You can't act like Ilyana's team can't make these choices. Ilyana's team has the option to have a decent Ilyana + Lethe coming in and doing whatever we want her to. Your team does not have this choice. And she doesn't need to "save turns". save turns in comparison to what? Chances are, if you fill your team with the top units in the game and then replace one of them with Ilyana you aren't saving any turns, but the same holds true about Tormod so what's the point? All I'd really need to show is a comparison between Ilyana w/out bexp vs. her with and see how much better she performs. Do you really need me to do that? Ilyana isn't actually competing with anything before Tormod arrives in order to get some bexp. This isn't RD where you don't have enough to go around. It's not really possible to prove Ilyana will be saving turns because there is no set team.

And what, do you want me to pull every single unit that she goes from two rounding to one rounding or 4 hitting to 3 hitting or whatever improvements she makes if I jump her to level 10 in chapter 9? Or from 3 or 4 rounding to 2 rounding (and 3 hitting)? I don't really see the point of doing that. I think even you can guess there would be plenty.

Besides, with your 7 + Lethe team, I could say, well what if you give that extra bexp to Ilyana and use her as filler for 6 chapters? That team is clearly better than 7 + Lethe because those 7 + Lethe suffer not one bit for 7 chapters while I get to add on an extra character to help out. x + 1 > x. There are tons of things you can do with that bexp that will improve the team from chapter 9 to 15. Tormod does not have equal rights to that bexp as someone who is actually there from chapter 9 to 15.

And this is really the case - you think we can just hand Ilyana whatever we want in Chapters 9 to 15 and forget about it when Tormod shows up. Why don't we give her a Speedwing and a Seraph Robe, too? I mean, we'd probably use it whether we're using Ilyana or not, so why should Tormod care?

Tormod doesn't care, actually. But it hurts Ilyana in her comparison to him because various other units care and she faces a cost because of them. The best alternative forgone isn't Tormod for those items so he doesn't actually matter. But there is a best alternative forgone that causes Ilyana to face a cost by taking those things and so it would hurt her comparison with Tormod. This isn't the case for the bexp. All your units are receiving various amounts of bexp before Tormod arrives. Hence, Ilyana isn't hurt by any of the bexp she receives beforehand. When Tormod arrives, they have equal rights to the bexp they can receive at that point. Heck, even if you don't want to accept that, do you really think Tormod has the right to the exact same amount of bexp that Ilyana got from the beginning of the game? How would that work for other characters? If Oscar got 1100 points of bexp from chapter 8 until Geoffrey shows up, are you suggesting I must now give 1100 to Geoffrey the instant I can? And since that is ridiculous, how much is someone entitled to? What % of Ilyana's total received bexp is Tormod somehow entitled to as a result of Ilyana getting x bexp from chapter 8 until 15? And why is he entitled to that amount anyway? Did Ilyana only help us with 60% of the bexp we gave her and the rest wasn't helpful at all or something and thus Tormod is allowed 40% of the bexp she's received thus far? I don't buy that.

The problem with all your complaints is that you are still thinking in some kind of communist/all favouritism is created equal type of thinking. Giving bexp in PoR is not the same as giving bexp in RD or giving stat boosting items. It shouldn't be treated as if giving Ilyana 500 bexp before he arrives or whatever and then suggesting Tormod isn't entitled to that amount in the instant he joins is somehow equivalent to giving Ilyana whatever I want before Tormod arrives and then suggesting it's okay in comparison with Tormod.

Why bother? Rhys is healing better, Soren can use Elwind just as effectively and doesn't need a Seal. We only have one Elwind tome available, so why should we promote Ilyana for her +1 or 2 magic lead on Soren using it?

You also only have one seal at first. Chances are you are more likely to early seal one of soren/Ilyana than Tormod (he doesn't help you with it from when you get it up to chapter 15). At which point, even if Rhys/Mist can pick up mend and heal better, one of Ilyana/soren is still good enough at it and better with staying alive/countering (because, you know, they can?). We aren't promoting Ilyana just so she can use Elwind. There is the possibility of promoting one of them (you probably aren't using both) and then whichever is promoted is obviously a better user of elwind than the one that isn't. Especially in the case of an unpromoted soren that is weighed down by 2 with elwind and even level 11 soren has only 10 attack speed with it and can get doubled by most of chapter 12's Ravens. Why wouldn't you give elwind to Ilyana at that point?

Even early promoted, Ilyana is still not pulling her weight relative to the rest of the team. She cannot eat 600 BEXP for free just because she exists in Chapter 9 and Tormod doesn't.

You know, you haven't proven this either. You say that I haven't proven that Ilyana is actually helping us, but I don't really have to. I'm not the one trying to change the list. You are the one calling for a change and thus you need to somehow prove that the team is better off from chapter 8 to 15 without using Ilyana and that they are better off with giving Tormod whatever you want than if they would just use other units. Ilyana is actually in a decent spot on the tier list. You can't say "Ilyana is still not pulling her weight". Early promotion was one of the considerations for getting Ilyana to where she is. Clearly other people think she is "pulling her weight" or whatever. It seems to me that this means you would need to prove them wrong, not the other way around. We aren't trying to change anything. We actually do have the right to make random statements as if they are fact as long as the tier list supports them. Change doesn't come by making random statements and not backing them up. Comparing them at 20/1 vs. 15/1 and then saying "Oh look at Tormod" and responding to availability concerns with "oh but she isn't helping early anyway" is clearly not going to convince anyone to actually change anything.

[Zkirsche]

By that "not mentioning Manith" stuff, I meant int not showing how Marcia is owed the full guard over Tanith. Not Manith not appearing in his words. I thought that was obvious, bu maybe not, I do tend to read into things quite thoroughly.

As for bexp, we have 1650 bexp by chapter 9. 3 levels to Mia and 5 to Marcia will cost us ~800 bexp. A level for Ike/Boyd/Oscar/Soren/Rhys will cost us ~500 bexp, so that leaves 350 bexp, or ~3.5 levels worth, left. By chapter 13, we get an extra 2000+ bexp coming our way, which is easily enougth to gvie Neph, Jill + Brom the levels they need to catch up, along with Astrid and Zihark.

Sometimes I wish that resources were actually scarce as it'd make much more interesting debates.

Also, I should probably apologise for my aggressive behaviour before. Sorry, i've been in a bad mood for while now, and I guess debating wasn't too good for me.

Edited May 11, 2010 by The Syobon

[Anouleth]

Except she doesn't suck in chapter 9 or chapter 11 or chapter 13 or chapter 14. Even chapter 12 she can fight decently with elthunder if you don't promote her and you keep her from getting attacked. That bexp is still making her perform better and double some things she isn't otherwise. Also, it's not like you aren't giving exp to everyone else along the way anyway. This is nothing like dumping all your bexp on Edward. There is a huge cost to doing so outside of consideration for Zihark. Ed would actually be depriving everyone else before Zihark arrives of bexp (not to mention there isn't actually all that much in HM in part 1 and thus it wouldn't do much to close the gap anyway). Ilyana deprives her teammates of nothing. I pointed out that once they get their bexp that giving an extra 100 bexp to them is inferior to giving 100 bexp to Ilyana. You mention nothing of the sort with Edward vs. other DB members before Zihark arrives. Your attempt at a parallel fails. That isn't "what I'm doing", so don't act like it is. If I justify something, or at least attempt to, you can't throw any random thing out there with no reasoning for why it is okay and then say "that's what you're doing". It isn't. Tell me why it is superior to sit on 500 bexp for 7 chapters rather than use it.

Ok, perhaps she doesn't 'suck' in Chapter 9 or 11 or 13 or 14, but I fail to see how she's 'good'.

If I could show that Tormod uses BEXP better than Ilyana, would that be justification for giving him more BEXP than her when he joins in C16? Since so far you've been giving her in that chapter just as much BEXP as he gets in that chapter, even when she's 20/01 and levelling half as fast as him and has worse growths to begin with and doesn't really need the BEXP in the short term (and ate hundreds of BEXP earlier on).

It's superior to sit on BEXP when you're waiting to spend it on someone half decent. I feel perfectly confident in setting aside BEXP for Marcia or Zihark or Jill or Astrid/Makalov. It's not like we even need to 'set aside' BEXP, since Tormod joins right after a massive BEXP windfall, so we can take his stuff out of that.

Why wouldn't Ilyana's team be using 8 + some filler character like Lethe? Or even 8 including Lethe? You can't act like Ilyana's team can't make these choices. Ilyana's team has the option to have a decent Ilyana + Lethe coming in and doing whatever we want her to. Your team does not have this choice. And she doesn't need to "save turns". save turns in comparison to what? Chances are, if you fill your team with the top units in the game and then replace one of them with Ilyana you aren't saving any turns, but the same holds true about Tormod so what's the point? All I'd really need to show is a comparison between Ilyana w/out bexp vs. her with and see how much better she performs. Do you really need me to do that? Ilyana isn't actually competing with anything before Tormod arrives in order to get some bexp. This isn't RD where you don't have enough to go around. It's not really possible to prove Ilyana will be saving turns because there is no set team.

And what, do you want me to pull every single unit that she goes from two rounding to one rounding or 4 hitting to 3 hitting or whatever improvements she makes if I jump her to level 10 in chapter 9? Or from 3 or 4 rounding to 2 rounding (and 3 hitting)? I don't really see the point of doing that. I think even you can guess there would be plenty.

Okay, I concede that Ilyana has an advantage due to existing from Chapter 9 to Chapter 15, since she can make use of BEXP in that time. But I don't like the logic, since it implies that Ilyana has an advantage purely due to availability. It contradicts the whole concept of this being a net utility tier list (I assume this is the case because Rolf is in Low), since it means Ilyana is in her current position purely due to existing, even when she's not very good.

Besides, with your 7 + Lethe team, I could say, well what if you give that extra bexp to Ilyana and use her as filler for 6 chapters? That team is clearly better than 7 + Lethe because those 7 + Lethe suffer not one bit for 7 chapters while I get to add on an extra character to help out. x + 1 > x. There are tons of things you can do with that bexp that will improve the team from chapter 9 to 15. Tormod does not have equal rights to that bexp as someone who is actually there from chapter 9 to 15.

It depends on who we're talking about. Sure, Marcia or Mia do great things with BEXP, so Tormod has no chance of having equal access to BEXP. Same for many characters. But how about Mist or Rhys, who get virtually no benefit from BEXP? Or Brom, who doesn't even want to touch BEXP before the KW exists? Or Titania, who doesn't need BEXP because she rocks anyway? Or Ike, who will probably hit his level cap purely through CEXP gains? These are all characters who we can seriously consider saving BEXP for Tormod over giving it to them. Them 'existing' doesn't automatically trump 'Tormod uses it much better'.

Tormod doesn't care, actually. But it hurts Ilyana in her comparison to him because various other units care and she faces a cost because of them. The best alternative forgone isn't Tormod for those items so he doesn't actually matter. But there is a best alternative forgone that causes Ilyana to face a cost by taking those things and so it would hurt her comparison with Tormod. This isn't the case for the bexp. All your units are receiving various amounts of bexp before Tormod arrives. Hence, Ilyana isn't hurt by any of the bexp she receives beforehand. When Tormod arrives, they have equal rights to the bexp they can receive at that point. Heck, even if you don't want to accept that, do you really think Tormod has the right to the exact same amount of bexp that Ilyana got from the beginning of the game? How would that work for other characters? If Oscar got 1100 points of bexp from chapter 8 until Geoffrey shows up, are you suggesting I must now give 1100 to Geoffrey the instant I can? And since that is ridiculous, how much is someone entitled to? What % of Ilyana's total received bexp is Tormod somehow entitled to as a result of Ilyana getting x bexp from chapter 8 until 15? And why is he entitled to that amount anyway? Did Ilyana only help us with 60% of the bexp we gave her and the rest wasn't helpful at all or something and thus Tormod is allowed 40% of the bexp she's received thus far? I don't buy that.

The problem with all your complaints is that you are still thinking in some kind of communist/all favouritism is created equal type of thinking. Giving bexp in PoR is not the same as giving bexp in RD or giving stat boosting items. It shouldn't be treated as if giving Ilyana 500 bexp before he arrives or whatever and then suggesting Tormod isn't entitled to that amount in the instant he joins is somehow equivalent to giving Ilyana whatever I want before Tormod arrives and then suggesting it's okay in comparison with Tormod.

I highlighted the bits that directly contradicted each other. Somehow, Ilyana and Tormod have 'equal rights' to BEXP in Chapter 16, when Tormod has promotion to look forward to, better growths, and Ilyana needs almost twice as much BEXP to gain a level. Yet Ilyana has the right to take however much BEXP she feels like in C9 because other people don't need it.

And Geoffrey/Oscar is an entirely different situation. Let's see, we need to save that BEXP for 18 chapters in Geoffrey/Oscar, 21 if we count Chapter 17 as four seperate chapters. We need to save the BEXP in Tormod/Ilyana for seven chapters - two of which can be completed pacifistically, one of which is a defend chapter so we don't care, and one of which is Ravens, on which Ilyana does not really help us on. So we're only 'saving' that BEXP for three chapters in real terms. And Tormod doesn't even need to be saved BEXP for, since he joins right after Chapter 15!

You also only have one seal at first. Chances are you are more likely to early seal one of soren/Ilyana than Tormod (he doesn't help you with it from when you get it up to chapter 15). At which point, even if Rhys/Mist can pick up mend and heal better, one of Ilyana/soren is still good enough at it and better with staying alive/countering (because, you know, they can?). We aren't promoting Ilyana just so she can use Elwind. There is the possibility of promoting one of them (you probably aren't using both) and then whichever is promoted is obviously a better user of elwind than the one that isn't. Especially in the case of an unpromoted soren that is weighed down by 2 with elwind and even level 11 soren has only 10 attack speed with it and can get doubled by most of chapter 12's Ravens. Why wouldn't you give elwind to Ilyana at that point?

Soren only needs to be level 9-10 to match a 10/01 Ilyana in magic. He needs level 15 to match her in AS w/Elwind (and at level 16 he can match her attack even just using Wind, in which case nothing on the map doubles him while she's still at risk, especially if she doesn't proc spd). Not that he really needs to - only a true idiot player would let Soren be exposed on C12 when it's so pathetically easy to protect weaklings. We have mountains of BEXP at this point, so the only case in which she beats him is if we're suddenly super-stingy with BEXP for no reason and then fail to play the chapter intelligently.

Also we get two Seals before Chapter 12, one from Danomill and one from Mackoya.

And yes, I understand that there are other benefits to sealing Ilyana than Elwind. They're just not worth it. 10/01 Ilyana has 12AS on average with a 30% growth. That makes her the slowest character in the entire game, bar Armor Knights. And for what - so she can be decent during Chapter 9 to 15? Great - a chapter we can beat with just Partner units if we felt like it, a stealth chapter, the Ravens chapter on which she's still not good, a defend chapter, and a pacifism chapter. Sure is worth giving her Bastian-level stats for the rest of the game and dooming her to get outdone by Tormod when he joins. Tormod can just go ahead and gain levels naturally until he's about level 15, then promote, and we get this lovely comparison:

10/6 Ilyana w/Elthunder

28HP 20-21ATK 12AS 6DEF 16-17RES

16/1 Tormod w/Elfire

28-29HP 20ATK 15AS 8DEF 15RES

Gee, I guess Tormod will just have to settle for winning Chapter 18 to Endgame by a significant margin, forever. I guess Ilyana can keep her earlygame where she's not quite as good as Soren but still better than Brom.

You know, you haven't proven this either. You say that I haven't proven that Ilyana is actually helping us, but I don't really have to. I'm not the one trying to change the list. You are the one calling for a change and thus you need to somehow prove that the team is better off from chapter 8 to 15 without using Ilyana and that they are better off with giving Tormod whatever you want than if they would just use other units. Ilyana is actually in a decent spot on the tier list. You can't say "Ilyana is still not pulling her weight". Early promotion was one of the considerations for getting Ilyana to where she is. Clearly other people think she is "pulling her weight" or whatever. It seems to me that this means you would need to prove them wrong, not the other way around. We aren't trying to change anything. We actually do have the right to make random statements as if they are fact as long as the tier list supports them. Change doesn't come by making random statements and not backing them up. Comparing them at 20/1 vs. 15/1 and then saying "Oh look at Tormod" and responding to availability concerns with "oh but she isn't helping early anyway" is clearly not going to convince anyone to actually change anything.

And I think that if people want a tier list to be taken seriously, they should respond to criticism. I do not have to 'prove them wrong' - if someone wants to run a tier list, they should be able to give arguments behind why people are in the position they are when challenged, or at least link to previous arguments on it. I am not the one trying to run a tier list here - burden of proof does not lie on me.

Well, whatever. If you can appeal to Ilyana's high position as proof that she pulls her weight, can I appeal to the fact that every single person who exists between C9 and C15 except Rhys and Rolf is above her? So in comparison to all except two people before Tormod joins, she is worse - so using her seriously is probably a negative, since we're giving up someone better.

[dondon151]

Okay, I concede that Ilyana has an advantage due to existing from Chapter 9 to Chapter 15, since she can make use of BEXP in that time. But I don't like the logic, since it implies that Ilyana has an advantage purely due to availability. It contradicts the whole concept of this being a net utility tier list (I assume this is the case because Rolf is in Low), since it means Ilyana is in her current position purely due to existing, even when she's not very good.

You might have to live with it. The correlation of availability and tier list position, particularly in this game, is a symptom of the existence of BEXP (and to an extent the absence of need for promotion items).

[Anouleth]

You might have to live with it. The correlation of availability and tier list position, particularly in this game, is a symptom of the existence of BEXP (and to an extent the absence of need for promotion items).

Still doesn't explain Rolf in Low Tier.

And generally, shouldn't characters be ranked in comparison to the units around them? So even if Rolf exists for longer than Elincia, it's because he's worse than the characters around him that he's ranked lower. Otherwise, I could see Rolf going way up.

Edited May 13, 2010 by Anouleth

[Narga_Rocks]

Ok, perhaps she doesn't 'suck' in Chapter 9 or 11 or 13 or 14, but I fail to see how she's 'good'.

If I could show that Tormod uses BEXP better than Ilyana, would that be justification for giving him more BEXP than her when he joins in C16? Since so far you've been giving her in that chapter just as much BEXP as he gets in that chapter, even when she's 20/01 and levelling half as fast as him and has worse growths to begin with and doesn't really need the BEXP in the short term (and ate hundreds of BEXP earlier on).

Well, first off the bexp gave her 5 levels from 19/0 to 20/5 if you give her a seal at level 20 (like you give him one). 5 compared to 8. Not half as fast. Also, check there stats after. It's hard to say he uses it better.

It's superior to sit on BEXP when you're waiting to spend it on someone half decent. I feel perfectly confident in setting aside BEXP for Marcia or Zihark or Jill or Astrid/Makalov. It's not like we even need to 'set aside' BEXP, since Tormod joins right after a massive BEXP windfall, so we can take his stuff out of that.

You have two separate points, here. One is that you are comfortable sitting on it. Trouble is you have to sit on it from chapter 9 until 16 if you aren't giving it to Ilyana. The other point is that you just got bexp in chapter 15 and he can take from that. Trouble is, so can everyone else, including Ilyana. Hence I'm trying to compare what happens if you do that. You are not. You are comparing as if somehow Tormod is permitted bexp in chapter 16 and Ilyana isn't. I want to know why Ilyana isn't allowed any. Her wins over his were pretty obvious to me when both are given equal amounts, which generally tells me which one is more worthy of that bexp. And it isn't telling me "Tormod".

Okay, I concede that Ilyana has an advantage due to existing from Chapter 9 to Chapter 15, since she can make use of BEXP in that time. But I don't like the logic, since it implies that Ilyana has an advantage purely due to availability. It contradicts the whole concept of this being a net utility tier list (I assume this is the case because Rolf is in Low), since it means Ilyana is in her current position purely due to existing, even when she's not very good.

That all depends on how insistent we are in punishing availability. If she can perform nearly as well as your 6th or 7th best character during that time then I don't see much point in punishing availability. Bexp makes a lot of units participate pretty evenly.

It depends on who we're talking about. Sure, Marcia or Mia do great things with BEXP, so Tormod has no chance of having equal access to BEXP. Same for many characters. But how about Mist or Rhys, who get virtually no benefit from BEXP? Or Brom, who doesn't even want to touch BEXP before the KW exists? Or Titania, who doesn't need BEXP because she rocks anyway? Or Ike, who will probably hit his level cap purely through CEXP gains? These are all characters who we can seriously consider saving BEXP for Tormod over giving it to them. Them 'existing' doesn't automatically trump 'Tormod uses it much better'.

You know, there is a reason that we have so much bexp for units like Mia and Marcia and Jill and whomever. It is because Titania can live off boss kills and Ike can reach level 20 without it, etc etc. Bringing them up isn't a point for why we can save bexp for Tormod. They are why we can give so many other units what they need to perform well before Tormod even exists. Besides, KW appears before Tormod. If you are that insistent on saving bexp, you could save it for Brom instead. Or Gatrie. Either one in chapter 14 can use it.

I highlighted the bits that directly contradicted each other.

And in doing so you ignored the bits that show how they don't contradict. Good job.

The point is that you put it where it goes best. Equal rights just means equal opportunity. What matters is what they do with it. And Ilyana ends up with way better stats in all areas if you give it to her. And this is where the anti-communism angle comes in saying that therefore Ilyana is better. There is no reason to deny Ilyana the opportunity to receive more bexp simply because you feel that Tormod is owed the bexp.

Somehow, Ilyana and Tormod have 'equal rights' to BEXP in Chapter 16, when Tormod has promotion to look forward to, better growths, and Ilyana needs almost twice as much BEXP to gain a level. Yet Ilyana has the right to take however much BEXP she feels like in C9 because other people don't need it.

Ilyana gets what we give her in C9 to make her as good as we want after we did the same to others. And how much exp they get out of it doesn't actually matter. What they become for us does. Ilyana > Tormod when both get it. Ilyana > Tormod when you give him more than her in chapter 16. Tormod > Ilyana when you give him way more than you give her in Chapter 16. How could that result in Tormod > Ilyana overall? I see Ilyana getting the more important wins.

And Geoffrey/Oscar is an entirely different situation. Let's see, we need to save that BEXP for 18 chapters in Geoffrey/Oscar, 21 if we count Chapter 17 as four seperate chapters. We need to save the BEXP in Tormod/Ilyana for seven chapters - two of which can be completed pacifistically, one of which is a defend chapter so we don't care, and one of which is Ravens, on which Ilyana does not really help us on. So we're only 'saving' that BEXP for three chapters in real terms. And Tormod doesn't even need to be saved BEXP for, since he joins right after Chapter 15!

You don't have to complete them the pacifist way, you know. And defend chapters are self-improvement. You want to kill everything, trust me. And you still aren't getting that you have two options:

1. save bexp for Tormod. <- bad idea because it goes to waste

2. use bexp from chapter 15 on Tormod in Chapter 16. <- But I can give it to other units and get better results. Like Ilyana.

Either way is bad. And since you brought up both ideas, I had to refute both of them at the same time.

Soren only needs to be level 9-10 to match a 10/01 Ilyana in magic. He needs level 15 to match her in AS w/Elwind (and at level 16 he can match her attack even just using Wind, in which case nothing on the map doubles him while she's still at risk, especially if she doesn't proc spd). Not that he really needs to - only a true idiot player would let Soren be exposed on C12 when it's so pathetically easy to protect weaklings. We have mountains of BEXP at this point, so the only case in which she beats him is if we're suddenly super-stingy with BEXP for no reason and then fail to play the chapter intelligently.

You realize that soren will probably be lower leveled than Ilyana unless he gets more bexp than her, right? His early chapters are all quite bad for him.

http://fegenesis.forummotion.com/path-of-radiance-f5/soren-vs-mia-t64.htm#615

At best they are around the same level. Why are you comparing level 16 soren to level 10/1 Ilyana? Why not 16/1 Ilyana if you are making a 16 soren? It doesn't make sense. Whichever one gets the seal is bound to be better. And no, it's not being an idiot to let someone get attacked if they can survive. Granted you may want to get Mia/Zihark attacked more often, but the fact that you can allow Ilyana to counter once and you may not have that option with soren is important. Or vice-versa if he's the one you promote. Assuming he can actually survive. Hence, whichever unit gets the seal is better for it. Also they are a third healer, though that isn't all that important here, I suppose.

Also we get two Seals before Chapter 12, one from Danomill and one from Mackoya.

And you'd use both on the mages? Why?

And yes, I understand that there are other benefits to sealing Ilyana than Elwind. They're just not worth it. 10/01 Ilyana has 12AS on average with a 30% growth. That makes her the slowest character in the entire game, bar Armor Knights. And for what - so she can be decent during Chapter 9 to 15? Great - a chapter we can beat with just Partner units if we felt like it, a stealth chapter, the Ravens chapter on which she's still not good, a defend chapter, and a pacifism chapter. Sure is worth giving her Bastian-level stats for the rest of the game and dooming her to get outdone by Tormod when he joins. Tormod can just go ahead and gain levels naturally until he's about level 15, then promote, and we get this lovely comparison:

10/6 Ilyana w/Elthunder

28HP 20-21ATK 12AS 6DEF 16-17RES

16/1 Tormod w/Elfire

28-29HP 20ATK 15AS 8DEF 15RES

Gee, I guess Tormod will just have to settle for winning Chapter 18 to Endgame by a significant margin, forever. I guess Ilyana can keep her earlygame where she's not quite as good as Soren but still better than Brom.

Wow. Ilyana gets all of 5 levels from chapter 12 until chapter 16 and you are now giving Tormod 9 levels of bexp? Do I even need to respond to this? Besides, you don't actually have to stealth/pacifist. The difference is mainly in the amount of exp you can give to your healers and units that appear after those chapters. There is plenty of cexp in those chapters if you choose to apply it.

And I think that if people want a tier list to be taken seriously, they should respond to criticism. I do not have to 'prove them wrong' - if someone wants to run a tier list, they should be able to give arguments behind why people are in the position they are when challenged, or at least link to previous arguments on it. I am not the one trying to run a tier list here - burden of proof does not lie on me.

Pass the buck? I think it's more if you want to make changes you'd better do more than say "if we give Tormod a ton of bexp and give Ilyana nothing after her first couple of chapters then Tormod > Ilyana. After all, look at these numbers!".

Besides, I could compare level 19 Ilyana to level 7 Tormod and then suggest dumping bexp on other units and Ilyana's win might be more obvious. The fact that Ilyana > Tormod when both are given the same bexp in chapter 16 doesn't actually require me to give either of them bexp. Ilyana wins in 3 scenarios:

Neither get bexp in chapter 16

They get the same bexp in chapter 16

Ilyana gets more bexp in chapter 16.

Tormod wins in 1.

Tormod gets way more bexp in chapter 16.

Even if he only gets a couple hundred more he still loses.

Well, whatever. If you can appeal to Ilyana's high position as proof that she pulls her weight, can I appeal to the fact that every single person who exists between C9 and C15 except Rhys and Rolf is above her? So in comparison to all except two people before Tormod joins, she is worse - so using her seriously is probably a negative, since we're giving up someone better.

Except now you are punishing availability. If you want to go that route then I can say that the same applies to Tormod and thus you should use neither. But oh, wait, Ilyana can exist in chapter 8 for some amount of time (dependent on how much bexp you gave Mia, probably) and so she actually does something. Ilyana > Tormod. The punishing availability arguments don't really lead anywhere you want to be.

And I'm not appealing to her high-ish position as proof she pulls her weight. I'm using it as a counter-argument to something equally lame: your evidence-less assertion that she isn't pulling her own weight in those chapters. If you aren't going to try then I don't see why I should bother. The two statements have equivalent amounts of proof in them: 0.

[Interceptor]

Still doesn't explain Rolf in Low Tier.

Rolf explains himself. He's an Archer. The potential for growth is there, but he takes more BEXP for that growth than any other combatant, and he's only modestly useful even then, because mono-bows means that he's locked to 2-range forever. What you wind up with, when you go through the pain of training him, is a unit that can barely keep up with everyone else and is only good for killing one guy on Player Phase. Pardon me while I call a press conference.

The ability to take BEXP is not going to help your position if you're still mediocre afterwards. Mia shows up earlier than 15 of the people that are above her on the tier list. Her availability lead over Makalov doesn't paper over the performance difference between them.

And so it is the same with Rolf, who would be a much better character if he took Astrid's horse and become a Bow Knight.

[Snowy_One]

Forgive me for stating these things (I know I'm pretty much the special needs guy of tiers) but...

1) Why are we assuming the mages get the seals? I mean, I know that they probably get the most, but other people can use them well too.

Oscar and Makalov get axes

Mia gets a crit boost which is really nice due to vantage. Not to mention a AS boost.

Same for Zihark, but a bit lesser due to lacking vantage.

Mist can start training swords at a point where she is in less life-threatening danger instead of waiting. Plus a movement boost before physic staves.

Rhys can start attacking. Since it's early on, the lack of his AS won't be too aweful since there likely will be enemies most characters can't double/kill anyways.

Rolf gets a critical boost. While it's still pretty sucky since he will have killing trouble, it's still... well... semi-useful.

Marcia gets a move boost. I wouldn't normally consider this an advantage (since everyone gets it), but since she's a flier and all... Plus it would help with the ravens.

In fact, the only people whom it's probably somewhat pointless in the long run to seal are Boyd (only gains bows), Kieran (already has axes), Astrid (can hit 20/20 easily anyways), and Gatrie/Brom/Neph (no major advantage. Plus at least Brom desired KW levels to promotion... but promoting early and getting a speed boost is nice if he doesn't hit 20/20).

How good is Makalov when he joins anyways? I've heard this discussed back on ye olde Gamefaqs, but never in detail since it usually devolved into someone trying to argue Astrid/Makalov (or some other paladin combo) or, failing that, turning into a bow-fight once Astrid got mentioned.

Going by smash-logic, he's low leveled when he joins and mono-sword, so shouldn't he suck? Course, proving something should be by smash logic is kind of like proving that the world is round in Narnia. It only works if you ignore the most blatant evidence against your argument (namely, that they sailed over the edge of the world in Dawntreader) and is null and void the moment you leave his little fantasy world.

[Shadow Mir]

Forgive me for stating these things (I know I'm pretty much the special needs guy of tiers) but...

1) Why are we assuming the mages get the seals? I mean, I know that they probably get the most, but other people can use them well too.

Oscar and Makalov get axes

Mia gets a crit boost which is really nice due to vantage. Not to mention a AS boost.

Same for Zihark, but a bit lesser due to lacking vantage.

Mist can start training swords at a point where she is in less life-threatening danger instead of waiting. Plus a movement boost before physic staves.

Rhys can start attacking. Since it's early on, the lack of his AS won't be too aweful since there likely will be enemies most characters can't double/kill anyways.

Rolf gets a critical boost. While it's still pretty sucky since he will have killing trouble, it's still... well... semi-useful.

Marcia gets a move boost. I wouldn't normally consider this an advantage (since everyone gets it), but since she's a flier and all... Plus it would help with the ravens.

In fact, the only people whom it's probably somewhat pointless in the long run to seal are Boyd (only gains bows), Kieran (already has axes), Astrid (can hit 20/20 easily anyways), and Gatrie/Brom/Neph (no major advantage. Plus at least Brom desired KW levels to promotion... but promoting early and getting a speed boost is nice if he doesn't hit 20/20).

How good is Makalov when he joins anyways? I've heard this discussed back on ye olde Gamefaqs, but never in detail since it usually devolved into someone trying to argue Astrid/Makalov (or some other paladin combo) or, failing that, turning into a bow-fight once Astrid got mentioned.

Going by smash-logic, he's low leveled when he joins and mono-sword, so shouldn't he suck? Course, proving something should be by smash logic is kind of like proving that the world is round in Narnia. It only works if you ignore the most blatant evidence against your argument (namely, that they sailed over the edge of the world in Dawntreader) and is null and void the moment you leave his little fantasy world.

Combat units getting early seals means their EXP gain drops like a rock, which hurts them in the long run, whereas the mages get staves, which give the same EXP even when promoted. As for Rhys getting an early seal, there's the fact that light magic isn't available until chapter 13 or something, and even then, he's in serious danger of getting doubled.

[Narga_Rocks]

Going by smash-logic, he's low leveled when he joins and mono-sword, so shouldn't he suck? Course, proving something should be by smash logic is kind of like proving that the world is round in Narnia. It only works if you ignore the most blatant evidence against your argument (namely, that they sailed over the edge of the world in Dawntreader) and is null and void the moment you leave his little fantasy world.

Probably not good to insult a guy who can't defend himself.

Though I will say that he is unpredictable. It probably all makes sense and seems logical in his head. I doubt he thinks he is ever being hypocritical.

Anyway, I've always wondered about Mak's position in tier lists. Astrid has Paragon for cheap leveling and you have lots of bexp and while she's weak the two range lock can almost be seen as a good thing. Mak starts at like turn 4 in chapter 14 at the earliest (maybe smiting Marcia with Mordy might let you go earlier, though) and chapter 15 he may as well not exist.

Chapter 16 he starts at level 10. Not sure how much bexp you want to give him at that point, but it takes a fair amount of bexp for him to even be beating Mia and Zihark (aside from move). I'll admit that when he gets going he is fast + strong + good def. Lower skill than Oscar is partially made up for by swords.

But if you want to blitz chapters 18+ then it's probably a good investment to add another too strong too durable mounted unit that ORKOs things.

Edited May 13, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

1) Why are we assuming the mages get the seals? I mean, I know that they probably get the most, but other people can use them well too.

I think that people are only assuming the seals in mage comparisons, since they benefit considerably from them. There is no set configuration of seal distribution. The issue with giving seals to melee units is that a large portion of what they get from an early promotion (AS, mt, durability, whatever), you can largely get to them just by giving them normal levels with BEXP. So, given that early promos will tend to kneecap potential, usually it's not worth it.

How good is Makalov when he joins anyways? I've heard this discussed back on ye olde Gamefaqs, but never in detail since it usually devolved into someone trying to argue Astrid/Makalov (or some other paladin combo) or, failing that, turning into a bow-fight once Astrid got mentioned.

Makalov is not that great when he joins, but with a BEXP dump he does OK until he gets Axes (at which point he's good to go). He does need a whole lot of BEXP, iirc, but he delivers in terms of performance once he actually gets established. The BEXP and his jointime are almost certainly why he's the lowest of the cavs.

Going by smash-logic

Is it really necessary to keep flogging the viewpoints of someone who doesn't even come here anymore?