FE9 Tier list v3

[Snowy_One]

He doesn't? News to me. Shows how out of touch I am.

Anyways, though he doesn't come here anymore, I'm afraid I'm just so used to having to debate against him that the concept of being able to engage in a debate topic and NOT have to defend myself against his logic is still completely new to me. In fact, even though I was his idiot opponent of choice and his polar opposite for the most part back in the day, I'm just so used to having to fight him that I'm probably the strongest supporter of smash-logic on the site who is not firmly in his bullpen.

Back to the topic at hand... I know Makalov is, statistically, the best paladin at max level. However, when he first comes, he is indeed weak. IIRC, only Astrid helps the team less and only if she didn't get some Bexp to help Paragon along. Now, I won't deny he's impressive, but even if we were only considering the endgame and completely ignoring the midgame, he would still be high at best. While he may indeed move up a few spots on a endgame-only tier; I doubt he's moving above Jill, Oscar, Kieran, Boyd, Marcia, Reyson, and maybe Tanith. While he almost certainly would jump over Titania and Astrid in endgame only, Titania has early and mid and will still be going strong over him until the very endgame while Astrid will have a better mid and early late game. So yea, the tier would be fine if that were the case, but it's not.

Makalov has a very, VERY weak midgame! His only likely support is Astrid since his other two options are Haar and Bastion. Haar and Bastion aren't even around till late in the game, so they won't be able to help him out. While Astrid will, supporting her gives him only +1 DEF, 15 AVO, and 7.5 hit at A level, which won't even start building for three chapters.

Now, I don't view the fact that he will be~ level 10 at the start of chapter 16 as a downside of necessity... HOWEVER I DO view the fact that these will be his likely stats at the start of the chapter as a problem!

HP 30 Str 9 Mag 2 Skl 7 Spd 10 Luck 8 Def 10 Res 2

For comparison, here's Zihark at his joining level.

HP 25 Str 10 Mag 1 Skl 13 Spd 15 Luck 6 Def 7 Res 0

Makalov has 5 HP, 1 MAG, 2 luck, 3 DEF, and 2 RES.

Zihark has 1 STR, 5 SKL, and 5 SPD. Not to mention that adept curbstomps gamble on anyone who is not a sniper or swordmaster regardless of level. Just for fun, Makalov's 20/0 stats.

HP 36 Str 14.5 Mag 2.5 Skl 11.5 Spd 15 Luck 10.5 Def 14.5 Res 4

Contrasted against his sister:

HP 28.25 Str 14 Mag 3 Skl 14.5 Spd 19.25 Luck 10 Def 11.75 Res 10.5

While he leads HP and defense, that's all he leads. She destroys him in AS and has a HUGE RES lead that is big enough to be accounted for. Against Mia

HP 28 Str 12.6 Mag 4.2 Skl 16.3 Spd 21.4/20 Luck 12.3 Def 9.8 Res 5.5

While he 'wins', it's neither for terribly long (Mia has had time to build supports), she still kills him in skills (Vantage curbs gamble still, even without a boosted crit chance. Plus, ironically, Mia is one of the few characters who can actually put gamble to a decent use. If only we could skill-transfer like in FE10...), and she may be a higher level (Makalov basically got 9-10 levels Bexp/EXP in two chapters since he's almost certainly not helping in 15. Even if Mia got only 5 levels Bexp, you would still have to give her only 1 level of EXP per chapter to make her only 20/0 by the start of 16; and Mia's Bexp levels would cost less then Makalov's levels to boot! It costs her 609 EXP to go up five levels from base level. Meanwhile, Makalove costs 67 more EXP to go up five levels from his base level!

Now, I'm not saying that Mia > Mak. I don't think I've ever advocated that. However, should Makalov really be in high when he struggles against a mid-tier character when he joins when we are giving him some pretty big favoritism and sandbagging her heavily?

[Shadow Mir]

He doesn't? News to me. Shows how out of touch I am.

Anyways, though he doesn't come here anymore, I'm afraid I'm just so used to having to debate against him that the concept of being able to engage in a debate topic and NOT have to defend myself against his logic is still completely new to me. In fact, even though I was his idiot opponent of choice and his polar opposite for the most part back in the day, I'm just so used to having to fight him that I'm probably the strongest supporter of smash-logic on the site who is not firmly in his bullpen.

Back to the topic at hand... I know Makalov is, statistically, the best paladin at max level. However, when he first comes, he is indeed weak. IIRC, only Astrid helps the team less and only if she didn't get some Bexp to help Paragon along. Now, I won't deny he's impressive, but even if we were only considering the endgame and completely ignoring the midgame, he would still be high at best. While he may indeed move up a few spots on a endgame-only tier; I doubt he's moving above Jill, Oscar, Kieran, Boyd, Marcia, Reyson, and maybe Tanith. While he almost certainly would jump over Titania and Astrid in endgame only, Titania has early and mid and will still be going strong over him until the very endgame while Astrid will have a better mid and early late game. So yea, the tier would be fine if that were the case, but it's not.

Makalov has a very, VERY weak midgame! His only likely support is Astrid since his other two options are Haar and Bastion. Haar and Bastion aren't even around till late in the game, so they won't be able to help him out. While Astrid will, supporting her gives him only +1 DEF, 15 AVO, and 7.5 hit at A level, which won't even start building for three chapters.

Now, I don't view the fact that he will be~ level 10 at the start of chapter 16 as a downside of necessity... HOWEVER I DO view the fact that these will be his likely stats at the start of the chapter as a problem!

HP 30 Str 9 Mag 2 Skl 7 Spd 10 Luck 8 Def 10 Res 2

For comparison, here's Zihark at his joining level.

HP 25 Str 10 Mag 1 Skl 13 Spd 15 Luck 6 Def 7 Res 0

Makalov has 5 HP, 1 MAG, 2 luck, 3 DEF, and 2 RES.

Zihark has 1 STR, 5 SKL, and 5 SPD. Not to mention that adept curbstomps gamble on anyone who is not a sniper or swordmaster regardless of level. Just for fun, Makalov's 20/0 stats.

HP 36 Str 14.5 Mag 2.5 Skl 11.5 Spd 15 Luck 10.5 Def 14.5 Res 4

Contrasted against his sister:

HP 28.25 Str 14 Mag 3 Skl 14.5 Spd 19.25 Luck 10 Def 11.75 Res 10.5

While he leads HP and defense, that's all he leads. She destroys him in AS and has a HUGE RES lead that is big enough to be accounted for. Against Mia

HP 28 Str 12.6 Mag 4.2 Skl 16.3 Spd 21.4/20 Luck 12.3 Def 9.8 Res 5.5

While he 'wins', it's neither for terribly long (Mia has had time to build supports), she still kills him in skills (Vantage curbs gamble still, even without a boosted crit chance. Plus, ironically, Mia is one of the few characters who can actually put gamble to a decent use. If only we could skill-transfer like in FE10...), and she may be a higher level (Makalov basically got 9-10 levels Bexp/EXP in two chapters since he's almost certainly not helping in 15. Even if Mia got only 5 levels Bexp, you would still have to give her only 1 level of EXP per chapter to make her only 20/0 by the start of 16; and Mia's Bexp levels would cost less then Makalov's levels to boot! It costs her 609 EXP to go up five levels from base level. Meanwhile, Makalove costs 67 more EXP to go up five levels from his base level!

Now, I'm not saying that Mia > Mak. I don't think I've ever advocated that. However, should Makalov really be in high when he struggles against a mid-tier character when he joins when we are giving him some pretty big favoritism and sandbagging her heavily?

Makalov doesn't come with Gamble. He starts with Tempest, which is absolutely worthless.

[Snowy_One]

DOH! *facepalm*

[-Cynthia-]

Makalov's advantages far outweigh Mia's in the long run. Axes give him 1-2 range and he has a horse (movement is very important) He grows to be more durable than she does and can more consistently ORKO due to Str+axes. All this leaves Mia with is the period before Makalov joins more or less, since as soon as we get him we can BEXP+KW him up and he'll be like a mounted Mia and he easily beats her post promotion.

[Mekkah]

Kieran and Makalov had their skills switched at birth. Gamble and Tempest.

[Narga_Rocks]

Makalov's advantages far outweigh Mia's in the long run. Axes give him 1-2 range and he has a horse (movement is very important) He grows to be more durable than she does and can more consistently ORKO due to Str+axes. All this leaves Mia with is the period before Makalov joins more or less, since as soon as we get him we can BEXP+KW him up and he'll be like a mounted Mia and he easily beats her post promotion.

Yeah, it probably takes around 3 or 4 chapters after 15 unless you want to give him 10 levels at once. If he showed up as late as Geoffrey then Mia would win easily. If it was reasonable to assume Mak isn't promoted by chapter 18 then Mia might have a chance. But I'm sure it's not all that expensive to get Mak promoted by chapter 18, start of 19 at the latest. 19 to endgame is a pretty long time. There might be an argument to take him down from high but it's not like no other units in high exist only from chapter 18 to Endgame. Mak is more costly, I suppose, but it's not exactly a high enough cost to break him.

[Interceptor]

He doesn't?

He doesn't. Not by choice, he got b&.

Now, I'm not saying that Mia > Mak. I don't think I've ever advocated that. However, should Makalov really be in high when he struggles against a mid-tier character when he joins when we are giving him some pretty big favoritism and sandbagging her heavily?

I suppose it's possible, but it'd be a pretty big burden of proof. I don't have a lot of data on lategame, since I usually get bored of playing after 20 chapters of stomping everything into paste. The point though, is that 9MV + Canto and access to 1-2 range generally means that you're a badass in this game, and as long as you're around for any decent amount of time (hi Geoffrey) it's pretty easy to argue significant contributions towards game completion.

Mia is fun to use, but 7MV is getting out-gunned by mounts, her sword is no match for Hand Axes, and nobody dies in this game anyway so the Vantage hax and whatnot has limited utility outside of earlygame.

Kieran and Makalov had their skills switched at birth. Gamble and Tempest.

You mean Makalov and Marcia. That woman is all "tsun" and no "dere".

[Snowy_One]

Makalov's advantages far outweigh Mia's in the long run. Axes give him 1-2 range and he has a horse (movement is very important) He grows to be more durable than she does and can more consistently ORKO due to Str+axes. All this leaves Mia with is the period before Makalov joins more or less, since as soon as we get him we can BEXP+KW him up and he'll be like a mounted Mia and he easily beats her post promotion.

I know that. This is why I'm not arguing Mia > Makalov. My point is that I still had to sandbag Mia pretty heavily as well as favor Makalov heavily as well and it was a fuzzy comparison as to who was better still. Sure, if we were to look at it after Makalov has gotten some time to grow, he would defeat Mia. This is not my point. My point is to question if he should really be in high when he has a start that can only be described as 'needing favoring' to get to play at a level which can be mimiced by a swordmaster. Yes, for the entire game, Makalov > Mia. However, if we were to cut the game off at, say, chapter 18; Makalov would essentially be classified as the Nino of this game and it would very likely be Mia > Makalov... Or Lethe > Makalov, or possibly even Gatrie > Makalov (not sure, but still, a lot of people are better than Makalov before the endgame).

There is no simpler way to say it. Makalov has probably the roughest start of any combat character aside from Rolf in this game (even that's iffy with bows and all). It would take him at least to chapter 17-18 by my monkeyguess for him to be on average with the rest of the team, and probably 1-2 more chapters before he could even be considered mid-tier overall. Yet somehow in the remaining few chapters, chapters which seem to carry less weight than early/mid game chapters, he manages to do well enough to get up to high tier? When he performs high-tier at best in those chapters? I mean, that seems pretty biased in favor of him to say the least.

[Interceptor]

There is really no point in slow-playing Makalov, since it just extends the period where he is sucking it up and not contributing as much as other people. If he's not at least promoted by Dawn, you're just wasting your time.

He's bad in Ch14, and his sister is low-turning the desert chapter (which all mounts are terrible in), so starting in Ch16 your best bet is just to plow him full of as much BEXP as it takes to put him on par with the likes of Oscar and Kieran. Given the amount of BEXP required, this probably makes him mutally exclusive with Astrid, for all intents and purposes, unless the army hasn't been using high-maintenance units up to this point (like Marcia and Jill).

[Snowy_One]

I'm not sure it's even possible to actively play him without making 70-80% of the team Bexp independent. After all, it takes a aweful lot, plain and simple, to get him up and going. While I don't have a problem Bexp spiking him up, it is not a good thing that it pretty much has to be done and in such a huge load for sure.

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm not sure it's even possible to actively play him without making 70-80% of the team Bexp independent. After all, it takes a aweful lot, plain and simple, to get him up and going. While I don't have a problem Bexp spiking him up, it is not a good thing that it pretty much has to be done and in such a huge load for sure.

Well, if you want to get the best out of Astrid/Mia/Zihark/Jill/Marcia, you need to give them pretty hefty bexp spikes anyway. It's not as if none of the characters are like this. You can't use them all at once, but you can use enough of them at the same time that I don't see much point in caring.

It would be pretty silly to argue these characters in the tier list as if you are using them all at once. Why are you making a team of Titania + Ike + Astrid + Makalov + Mia + Zihark + Jill + Marcia, anyway? That seems like a good way to make yourself underleveled. But the fact is that there are so many more team combinations in which bexp dumps for specific characters isn't even an issue, so that should clearly hold more weight.

[-Cynthia-]

I'm not seeing how Makalov really fits into Upper Mid either. I see a clear difference between him and Neph, he has a horse, axes, and some WTC, she has a few chapters before he joins where she's pretty average. Neph requires a fair amount of BEXP herself.

Mordecai has doubling issues and transform issues to deal with. He is a pretty big asset before Mak joins, but Makalov again, clearly stomps Mordy post promotion.

[Shadow Mir]

You mean Makalov and Marcia. That woman is all "tsun" and no "dere".

On a more serious note, is there a chance that Soren drops?

[-Cynthia-]

Drops what?

If you're talking about Soren going down that would reuire some sort of argument.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

On a more serious note, is there a chance that Soren drops?

Not below Ilyana that's for certain. Don't know about Mia since her position's based on some valid favoritism due to the surplus of resources in this game...

[Shadow Mir]

Drops what?

If you're talking about Soren going down that would reuire some sort of argument.

I mean drops as in goes down. What about this?

http://fegenesis.forummotion.com/path-of-radiance-f5/soren-vs-mia-t64.htm#615

[-Cynthia-]

Soren's durability is almost as good as Stefan and Mia's, they have more concrete defense, but he can easily get an Ike support and doesn't take counters. Once he starts doubling (not that hard to do with some BEXP), his offense is better because high Magic hitting Res> swords. Plus, we can early Seal Soren for staves and he counters things with 2 range or 1-2 range.

I guess a lot of these arguments also apply for Zihark, but he gets some pretty crazy durability once supports kick in and also has Adept (Soren also has Adept obviously, which gives him a boost over Mia and Stefan offensively).

Soren also hits laguz pretty hard which SMs often struggle against.

[Mekkah]

You mean Makalov and Marcia. That woman is all "tsun" and no "dere".

Kieran has Gamble, Marcia has no skills. I guess you can argue Makalov has "no skills" either story-line wise, but considering his supports Gamble would suit him.

[Snowy_One]

Soren's durability is almost as good as Stefan and Mia's, they have more concrete defense, but he can easily get an Ike support and doesn't take counters.

Aye. But Zihark can get some decently crazy AVO as well and Mia can potentially vantage/crit kill her foes (not taking their counter). While Soren can take vantage as well, nothing he can do in the vantage department can compare to what Mia can do.

Once he starts doubling (not that hard to do with some BEXP), his offense is better because high Magic hitting Res> swords. Plus, we can early Seal Soren for staves and he counters things with 2 range or 1-2 range.

No argument there.

I guess a lot of these arguments also apply for Zihark, but he gets some pretty crazy durability once supports kick in and also has Adept (Soren also has Adept obviously, which gives him a boost over Mia and Stefan offensively).

Doesn't Mia have the fifth highest AVO before supports? Anywho, A Soren/Ike is a lot more likely then a Muarim/Zihark if you were to ask me. Ike is guaranteed to be fielded no matter what and has a fairly similar movement range. Muarim has no guarantee of being fielded and has a bigger difference of movement then the prior. Also, Mia can avoid counters via wrathed crits (we can check at the start of the turn to see if she will kill her target. If not, we can simply just take back the movement and heal her after all) and can potentially deal magic damage.

Soren also hits laguz pretty hard which SMs often struggle against.

Laguz slayer. Sure, in later chapters, it's less valuable. But for the first appearances of laguz, it's fairly useful.

Now, I do agree that Soren > both swordmasters, but mainly because of his ability to use staves combined with his constant magic attacks. In terms of skills/durability, while he isn't too far from the SM (Mia has better skills, and Zihark has better durability), he's just not as good as the respective swordmaster even with the aid of a Ike support.

I am curious now though. How much do we value skills on this tier? Soren can take his adept, link it with a vantage, and then use a forged thunder for some potent results. Similarly, if we were to overhaul him with vantage/wrath, he can get a 60+ critical rate when he drops below 50% health (not hard) and will almost certainly kill if he crits as well as countering almost every attack that isn't a longbow/ballista/ or siege tome. That... would be pretty noteworthy.

[-Cynthia-]

Skills are usually considered to be given who they're considered best on. Vantage is usually given to Nephenee (Wrath+Vantage), and Wrtah is usuay given to Mia or Ike (Wrath/Vantage combo and easier Ashnard killing respectively). In their absence though, any mage makes a pretty good Vantage/Wrath candidate due to 1-2 range.

[dondon151]

Skills that come on units aren't free in this game, unless you suggest that we remove Adept and give Soren Vantage and Wrath. That's not exactly optimal, though.

[Snowy_One]

While it's not optimal (Mia/Neph is for those skills), there's no denying that, barring them, the sages are at least #3 on the list of candidates for it (I don't count Ike, but mainly because I prefer giving him Aether which is almost as good for Ashnard killing and better for him throughout the game). Not only do they always counter at 1-2 range, but they can wield forged thunder tomes for boosted crit (or normal thunder-types barring that) while a SM has to switch over to a KE to get a critical boost. Granted, a SE gets an innate critical boost, so it's kind of like this.

SM: 65% innate critical boost before skill that can jump up to ~95%; but no/limited 1-2 range.

Sages: 55% that can jump up to ~70% before SKL, but can counter at 1-2 range.

Which one is better will depend more on how much you value the difference between 70 and 100% crit chance compared to being able to only counter at 1 range.

All the sages use the wrath/vantage combo equally well though. Soren may be better in the event it fails, but all the sages use it well once they get it. Personally, I am in favor of the SM for this skill combo since, the way I see it, any foe with 1-2 range and Soren in range is gonna go after him only if they will kill him if they hit and no one else is in range. Otherwise, anyone with a 1 range weapon who can't counter will likely be targeted. However, it is still pretty damned useful and I would say it needs to be considered.

[Zkirsche]

Any reason why Sothe > Gatrie?

[-Cynthia-]

Theiving utility is more unique than combat utility? Sothe vs. Gatrie is a very hard comparison to make (let's measure Sothe's secondary theiving to Gatrie's earlygame!) so their positions are admittedly somewhat arbitrary.

[Ether]

Is Brom's durability really enough to put him over Zihark/Soren/Mia/Possibly Ilyana?Especially considering he has armour knight move in a game dominated by pallies,and IIRC,it takes a lot of KW abuse to get his Spd up to par.

EDIT:And Stefan,forgot him for a second.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Ether