FE7 HHM Ranked Tier List

[Inui]

Merlinus's only negative is the same as Ninian's, except he doesn't take a deployment slot.

[Rodykitty]

...Nevermind.

[nflchamp]

But Merlinus's positives aren't that big. He's net neutral in basically everything but funds. He'd still lose to every unit whose positive majorly (or even somewhat) outweigh their negatives.

[Narga_Rocks]

But if you want to tier Merlinus for doing things that the convoy does in other games anyway, shouldn't those 4 convoy people in fe9 be tiered? They could in fact be better than Merlinus because they aren't out on the field needing to be protected (however rare that is). Sure, you can't send them out and move them around, but functionally they do the exact same job, only better. The only advantage Merlinus has over them is that if you really need it you can send a unit his way and switch items. But they have an advantage on him in that you don't need to protect them. Aside from switching items, the only other difference is that he sits in a spot on the field that generally doesn't even meet enemies. Being out on the field is a negative for him compared to the ones in fe9 and fe10.

I just think it would make sense if he is only tiered for the things that make him different from them. Like weapon switching mid-battle. Tiering him for the stuff that they can do off the field just makes me want to tier the convoy in fe9. Otherwise, he's basically being rewarded for being worse at his job. Somehow he must be on the field, and yet they are so good they can do it from off the field. There are fundamental differences between them, sure, but those fundamental differences are why he is worse than they are.

[-Cynthia-]

Yeah, the "Send" fcntion does not actually require us to use Merlinus--just that he be fielded. It would be inconsistent with previous decisions of this type, such as not giving RD lords credit for authority stars.

[Anouleth]

Unfortunately, it appears you truly are digressing to your tyrant methods of last week or so. "I'm not convinced, and I am God of the tier list and you're clueless n00bs, so fuck you! Discussion on this issue is BANNED and I won't listen to it!" Real mature, buddy.

Instead, I suggest we be adults. If we are tiering Matthew's thief contributions and Ninian's dancer contributions, then what is the difficulty in tiering Merlinus's merchant contributions?

Tactics: Allows you to swap weapons on the battlefield to improve your combat ability to proceed faster. Saves many unit turns by allowing the "send" function, meaning you don't need to visit the shop with everyone, and this function does NOT exist without Merlinus on the field IIRC, meaning it is something Merlinus does.

Funds: Holds 100 items for you and allows Silver Card abuse. Getting a perfect score in Funds wouldn't be easy or even possible without Merlinus, since Silver Card abuse would essentially not exist and you'd have to drop items on the battlefield when you get new ones all the time.

Survival: Only unit that can die without it counting against the rank!

Experience: His contribution is 0, and that counts against him, but his contributions in other areas are really h4x. We tiered Athos, didn't we?

I propose Merlinus be tiered into top tier. If we're not going to tier him because we're too dumb to compare merchant abilities to combat abilities, then thieves should only be tiered based on combat and Ninian should be off the list.

Learn to plan ahead. Trade around the Silver Card. Field a mule, you will probably have spare deployment slots. If nothing else, spend a turn buying stuff individually throughout each map. Don't just fill character's inventories with useless weapons - have them keep spare slots.

It's really not difficult, you're probably just so accustomed to being lazy and just dropping stuff into the Convoy, you can't imagine playing any other way.

I fail to see how saving you 1 or 2 turns of inventory management > Raven's contributions, or Priscilla's or Hector's.

[Colonel M]

I've removed our little double standard on the FE6 Tier List. Merlinus will not be discussed anymore in here either.

I do not care about our little "pot calling the kettle black", I have no problem defending "why" as well.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Colonel M

[Inui]

I've removed our little double standard on the FE6 Tier List. Merlinus will not be discussed anymore in here either.

Here we go again.

[CATS]

Yep. But as usual, such is the way of things. There is no way to prevent an OP from exercising his power to edit or not edit the first post.

On the other hand, I do not see why Colonel M should be able to declare that people cannot discuss Merlinus's tier position (regardless of whether or not he agrees with it) in an FE7 tier list topic. Nor do I really see why he would want to stifle this discussion in the first place.

[Interceptor]

Surely you can't be suggesting that Colonel M from be barred from making statements about discussions that he can't enforce anyway.

[CATS]

Not that he be physically barred or something of that sort, of course. I am simply addressing the fact that he seems to be under the assumption that he has this authority, as demonstrated by statements such as "Merlinus will not be discussed anymore in here."

[Narga_Rocks]

Not that he be physically barred or something of that sort, of course. I am simply addressing the fact that he seems to be under the assumption that he has this authority, as demonstrated by statements such as "Merlinus will not be discussed anymore in here."

I suppose. But you can still basically ignore that. If enough people could agree on just what it is that Merlinous can get credit for Colonel M might be willing to put him back on.

The "send" option really is not very different than Ike's RD stars. Of course, I think the fe5 list here and at FEG gave Leaf credit for his stars, along with any other unit that has stars (fe4 doesn't have whole field stars so Celice's stars aren't relevant for this discussion). Point is, though, different lists do different things. Now, while I agree that certain decisions like simply not moving characters because the TC doesn't want to are questionable, setting up rules like which units get tiered and what the goal of the list is are completely up to the TC. It's easier to have one person decide on the rules and everyone else argue within them than it is to make a collection of people with vastly different ideas agree upon some rules. The TC may change those rules over time, like adding BK to the FE10 list and adding/removing Lehran or Athos or Merlinus. And you can influence the decision of the TC (in this case by demonstrating that people can actually agree on what Merlinus gets credit for,) but in the end to tier or not to tier Merlinus is up to Colonel M.

There is an argument for the send to Merlinus option not giving him credit. Being a philosophical difference, I don't see how it can easily be resolved.

[Colonel M]

The reason that I did not want to continue with such a discussion is because it roots back to the "what's the point?" The only reason bblader brought it up in here was because he wanted to avoid the double standard (Merlinus was tiered in 6 but not in 7). Most people, from what I know, did not actually want to tier him in the first place.

You can argue that there is just too much of a shaky guideline to him. Even if you use the ranks to describe where Merlinus can go, take a look:

Tactics: Merlinus does not speed up or slow down, generally, your # of turn counts. MAYBE you can dent a negative on him at some points because he requires a guard in order to get a free level up. Still, in some instances such as CoD he is not necessarily "needed". From what I recall the only notable items here are the Hammerne and the Iron Rune.

Funds: Merlinus cannot be credited for carrying 100 weapons and carrying the Silver Card. Anyone can theoretically carry the Silver Card. The reason why Matthew gets credit for the item is simple: he stole it. If he didn't steal it, funds would not become "a joke". Merlinus does not realistically contribute to this rank either.

Survivial: While his death does not count as a negative toward the rank, it can hazard you into penalties. In some instances, Merlinus will actually need to be guarded. Now I assure you that he doesn't ALWAYS need a guard here, but it is crucial in some chapters. Also it is required if you want Merlinus to get out of his stupid tent.

EXP Rank: The requirement for this pool goes back to Survival's. Again, while he does draw from a unique pool of EXP, it also comes with a requirement in some instances. Yes, you may notice that I'm using the "he has to be guarded" argument a lot, but it's also true. He doesn't get direct contribution for any of these and he shouldn't.

Combat: He can't fight. It's like when your healer is attacked, basically.

Even if you can justify putting him on the tier list, where would he go? There is no way in hell he can auto-top, so forget that. If we went the middle path, that leaves the problems of "now how do we get units over Merlinus?". If we put him above units such as Athos... it draws the same question once again. Perhaps instead of bluntly ignoring my suggestion, you should've "tried" to make an argument of Merlinus going above someone. This was what I was trying to say but, once again, you call me out on being a ruthless overlord and whatnot. Not that I really care that it comes out of your mouth especially, but either way I had a reason to actually "wait". If people were serious on wanting to tier Merlinus... then I guess I have no choice but to abide by it. That is, if a certain amount actually want to do so. I know for a fact that it is nothing more but a waste of time and that it's nothing more but being narcissistic in wanting to add him, in my opinion.

[Inui]

Please go through this game without ever using Merlinus, which includes sending items to him.

Come back and tell me what you think.

[Interceptor]

Please go through this game without ever using Merlinus, which includes sending items to him.

Come back and tell me what you think.

This is an excellent point, of course.

However, I have over three years of tennis experience, and have a counter-argument for you. I would suggest that people try to complete the game without stepping on a grass tile, which includes moving a unit through it (instead of just stopping). I think that most people would find this considerably more challenging for S-rank than the absence of Merlinus, so by the same token I concur with IOS and think that it should be given a tier position equal to the respect that it deserves.

[frat_tastic]

The way I view it:

Tactis is a negative for Merlinus. He doesn't make the rank completely tank or anything, but he can cost you a few extra turns here or there by being far away from the team, drawing enemies to himself, having to run back to him, etc.

Combat is also a negative for Merlinus. This is his biggest negative, since he can never fight. Ever. Fortunately combat is a joke, so its not a heavy blow to Merlinus, but it is certainly a downside to using him.

EXP is fo sho a positive. If Ninian gets credit for having her own pool of EXP, and Serra/Priscilla get credit for having their own pool of EXP, Merlinus does too. So here he gets a good chunk of positive use points, I would say overriding his deficiencies of Tactics and Combat and making him contributing more positively than negatively at this point.

Survival, he can never die. I wouldn't call it a HUGE advantage though, since none of your units should die, but I guess its a small positive that if he does die, all you lose out on is 100 EXP, instead of an S Rank.

Funds is the complicated one. Sure Merlinus doesn't get credit for carrying the Silver Card, thats silly since anyone can carry it. I know that people object to this line of thinking for some reason (making things difficult to discuss? psh, don't be such a baby), but being able to send items to Merlinus should definitely be a positive for him. Granted, the unit does the sending action, but it cannot happen unless Merlinus is there, so some credit should be given.

So basically, it boils down to minor deficiencies in the Combat and Tactics ranks, minor positive contributions int he Survival and Funds ranks, and a nice contribution to the EXP rank. I'd say he should go into about Upper Mid based on that, or maybe even High if we weight the EXP rank heavily like we have been.

Oh and quit banning discussion. Really, its stupid to try and stifle discussion on something because you "don't like it", or it "makes things hard to discuss". If this line of thinking keeps continuing, SF is going to end up with a bunch of FE7 Tier Lists, and then discussion will thin in each topic and then most likely die, so get over yourself plox.

[Balcerzak]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but... The levels Merlinus gains for free don't count at all for the XP rank, right? I mean, we never actually see he XP meter rise, only him getting +1s or such. I was pretty sure the only XP he got that would count is the puny bits from dodging. Or is he really a free +100 for meeting every map requirement he survives on?

[CATS]

This is an excellent point, of course.

However, I have over three years of tennis experience, and have a counter-argument for you. I would suggest that people try to complete the game without stepping on a grass tile, which includes moving a unit through it (instead of just stopping). I think that most people would find this considerably more challenging for S-rank than the absence of Merlinus, so by the same token I concur with IOS and think that it should be given a tier position equal to the respect that it deserves.

Again, the obvious difference is that Merlinus can be classified as a PC rather than an object.

I don't think Merlinus's levels count towards Exp rank, though of course I do not actually know, and I'm not sure how to test it. It's worth looking into, since if they do count, he's pretty awesome.

[dondon151]

Merlinus's levels do not count to EXP rank. He doesn't have a value assigned to his EXP, ever.

[Interceptor]

Again, the obvious difference is that Merlinus can be classified as a PC rather than an object.

This is splitting hairs. Merlinus is like a unit, yet not, and you wish to tier him. Map tiles also resemble units, and their PC-ness will not be denied.

If you attack a Snag, does it not die, and turn into a Bridge?

If you tarry on a Fort, does it not heal you, like Serra?

If you stand on a Forest, does it not subtly alter your combat parameters?

Indeed, map tiles even improve your Tactics rank by confounding enemy movements and providing you with choke points and the like, for superior strategic options. And strictly speaking, the "unit slots" that people so often mention are actually map tiles, to be benched in place of some other unit.

There are dozens of terrain tiles, and common decency demands that we accord them equal status.

[dondon151]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all terrain are created equal, that they are endowed by Intelligent Systems with certain unalienable PC-like traits, that among these are death, self-healing and subtle alterations to combat parameters.

Amen, good sir.

Edited February 26, 2010 by dondon151

[Inui]

This is an excellent point, of course.

However, I have over three years of tennis experience, and have a counter-argument for you. I would suggest that people try to complete the game without stepping on a grass tile, which includes moving a unit through it (instead of just stopping). I think that most people would find this considerably more challenging for S-rank than the absence of Merlinus, so by the same token I concur with IOS and think that it should be given a tier position equal to the respect that it deserves.

Merlinus is a player character, not an object.

He has growth rates, gains levels, promotes, is fielded, can move around eventually... He's not like a snag, wall, or tile.

This reminds of me arguments about legalizing gay marriage leading to marrying dogs or some shit. Really silly stuff.

Oh and quit banning discussion. Really, its stupid to try and stifle discussion on something because you "don't like it", or it "makes things hard to discuss". If this line of thinking keeps continuing, SF is going to end up with a bunch of FE7 Tier Lists, and then discussion will thin in each topic and then most likely die, so get over yourself plox.

qft

[Narga_Rocks]

This is splitting hairs. Merlinus is like a unit, yet not, and you wish to tier him. Map tiles also resemble units, and their PC-ness will not be denied.

If you attack a Snag, does it not die, and turn into a Bridge?

If you tarry on a Fort, does it not heal you, like Serra?

If you stand on a Forest, does it not subtly alter your combat parameters?

Indeed, map tiles even improve your Tactics rank by confounding enemy movements and providing you with choke points and the like, for superior strategic options. And strictly speaking, the "unit slots" that people so often mention are actually map tiles, to be benched in place of some other unit.

There are dozens of terrain tiles, and common decency demands that we accord them equal status.

A play on "if you prick us, do we not bleed?"?

I guess the main defence for tiering Merlinus is simply that he can actually take damage. Which makes him not unlike a door or a weak wall, actually. Oh, and you have to say "yes" to field him. But if that is the main justification, then the hypothetical situation in which fe9 asks if you want Muskan and co. (I think that's one of their names) close enough to the field to get items or keep them back. There'd be no point in the question, of course, but it results in the yes or no thing.

And I suppose that in fe4 a forest is similar to Celice. They both give +20 avo. In later games when it's +1 def +10 avo, that's more like a strange support then, I suppose. Just take a unit with Thunder and supporting at the C level with Dark and Thunder (using fe9 affinities and rules). You get +0.5 atk, +1.5 def, +10 avo. Rounding down, that's +1 def, +10avo.

The growth rates make a decent point, but what is the purpose of his growth rates if you aren't letting him get attacked anyway? Lots of NPCs have growth rates they don't need. Being fielded means for a long time he takes a spot on the field. Like a wall.

And since Interceptor isn't using the slippery slope to say that tiering Merlinus will lead to tiering all the random terrain types, I don't think it's analogous to any of the other possible usages of slippery slope.

You can argue that he is doing what is feared by those that invoke the slippery slope. He is the guy that is doing whatever is feared by the opposite side. Now, the fact that he's almost certainly not serious about tiering these things isn't relevant.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

Merlinus is a player character, not an object.

He has growth rates, gains levels, promotes, is fielded, can move around eventually... He's not like a snag, wall, or tile.

Of course the map tiles have growth rates: they are all 0%. As for promotion, everyone knows that Walls can become Floors, and who is to say that today's modest Mountain is not tomorrow's Peak? Honestly, just because they don't share ALL of a unit's characteristics is no reason to dismiss them. Your anti-tile position is completely out of the mainstream.

A play on "if you prick us, do we not bleed?"?

Shakespeare: always relevant.

[CATS]

If you attack a Snag, does it not die, and turn into a Bridge?

If you tarry on a Fort, does it not heal you, like Serra?

If you stand on a Forest, does it not subtly alter your combat parameters?

Indeed, map tiles even improve your Tactics rank by confounding enemy movements and providing you with choke points and the like, for superior strategic options. And strictly speaking, the "unit slots" that people so often mention are actually map tiles, to be benched in place of some other unit.

There are dozens of terrain tiles, and common decency demands that we accord them equal status.

Merlinus has stats (as in HP, Str, Skl, Spd, Lck, etc), he can be attacked and killed (albeit temporarily) like other PCs, he can gain levels, he has supports, his sprite clearly falls under the blue Player Character faction, and you can actively more him around the map during the lategame. Terrain tiles might have some of these aspects (though even that is questionable, when you "kill" a snag it is not removed from the map, it simply turns into a different terrain tile, etc), but some of them are not possessed by any terrain tiles, and certainly no terrain tiles have a combination of all of them.

Obviously he's closer to being an object than any other PC, but I'd still consider him closer to being a character than not, and likening him to a terrain tile seems like a pretty weak argument. All PCs occupy a terrain tile, just like Merlinus does. The best argument I can see for him being an object rather than a unit is simply the fact that you can't move him or rescue him for most of the game.

Edited February 26, 2010 by CATS