Anouleth Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Clerics have always been exactly what they sound like- they heal and nothing more. Giving them the ability to attack is about as great of an idea as giving an unpromoted mage a staff or giving Knights 8 move or making archers have 1-2 range: completely missing the point of the class, and for that matter, the entire point in having classes. You get certain classes. They do certain things. We move on in life. Give Clerics a higher staff rank, better staffs, 5 more EXP per heal than a Troubadour gets, or anything of the sort, but I think giving them light magic is worse for balancing than any other possible solution, even just leaving it how it is. I think you're completely overreacting. Feena was not significantly better than other dancers because she could use swords, nor do Clerics suddenly become the best class in the game when they promote and get light magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanami Touko Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 (edited) And, Dan's not giving you guys any light magic for your own cleric for a while. So calm down. By the time you get it, she'll probably be almost ready to promote. This is more of an enemy thing than anything else, and there's nothing wrong with that :< I'm pretty sure most people are just arguing against this because it's different from the norm. Edited March 30, 2011 by seph1212 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 I love how you profess to know more about the game's statistics than I do. I don't. It's just that hacks and patches tend to have overpowered characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstraLunaSol Posted March 30, 2011 Author Share Posted March 30, 2011 295 ish for normal PCs At least that's what I'm planning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riariadne Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 S'like, Sisters never existed in FE5. Duly noted. I totally know what that is being in Chapter 3. This is more of an enemy thing than anything else That was my concern, really, in that it would hurt the benefits of other player characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanami Touko Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 I totally know what that is being in Chapter 3. That was my concern, really, in that it would hurt the benefits of other player characters. This is SF. You have the ENTIRE library of facts for FE5. And I'm sure you've played FE4. Lol Yuria and Diedre, they don't exist now. If that was your only concern, get out. It adds another thing that the player has to watch out for, and makes it harder. Clerics aren't just free EXP now :E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riariadne Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 This is SF. You have the ENTIRE library of facts for FE5. And I'm sure you've played FE4. Lol Yuria and Diedre, they don't exist now. If that was your only concern, get out. It adds another thing that the player has to watch out for, and makes it harder. Clerics aren't just free EXP now :E I'm specifically avoiding looking at the mainsite to make it more fun. That means a grand total of 2 in the games I've played, one of who is there for an amazing 1 and 1/3 chapters. Both being in a game where if you're not mounted you're not seeing much action. Which is a good thing. Stuff like this should be more for enemies than for PCs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanami Touko Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 (edited) Sara and Linoan, both are sisters, a class which can use staves and light magic. Idc how useful Diedre and Yuria were, there were still there, which is my point. I just don't get why everyone freaked out about this when it was shown. Seriously, why? Edited March 30, 2011 by seph1212 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riariadne Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Sara and Linoan, both are sisters, a class which can use staves and light magic. Idc how useful Diedre and Yuria were, there were still there, which is my point. I just don't get why everyone freaked out about this when it was shown. Seriously, why? Because it disrupts the balance. Sure it gives them something over troubadours. It also gives them something over... every other class. Now I can heal and attack with magic all on one unit. Mages suffer from this. Archers suffer from this. Physical classes suffer from this. I'm all for giving clerics a boost, but not at every other class's expense. FE4 implements this well because of the repercussions they suffer. As of now I see nothing that does the same were it not for "light magic coming later" or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Glenn Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 (edited) If that was your only concern, get out. It adds another thing that the player has to watch out for, and makes it harder. Clerics aren't just free EXP now :E While I'm not an expert on AI in FE7, the latter part of this could be an issue. Unless the right AI is set for the enemy clerics, if they have Light magic equipped, they'll likely splat themselves on the player characters by charging in and attacking with it. And, unless enemy clerics are worlds above player clerics in terms of stats, they'll be just as paper-thin. Then, you have a weak-ish unit even closer to your units, pretty much giving you free EXP. Alternatively, if you set the AI to stand still, then I don't believe the Clerics will run around and heal their allies, meaning that the enemy Cleric would just kinda be there to be there. I still maintain that my suggestions in Skype yesterday provide a better means of balancing the two classes: > Honestly, if it was me, I'd lower Troub movement to 6 (if it isn't already that low) and give Clerics access to special staves, if they can be weapon locked. (EDIT - Or, if not new special staves, restrict access for Troubadours to healing staves or something.) > (If not, then give Troubs E Rank in Staves and Clerics D or C.) (And, Trent, two things about Diadora and Yuria: 1) They both kinda have the base magic to pound on enemies (something you've said Clerics in DoF won't have) and 2) non-magic enemies in FE4 kinda have minimal Res (for the most part).) Feel free to correct me on the AI stuff. Like I said, I'm definitely not an expert in that field. Edited March 30, 2011 by Lord Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstraLunaSol Posted March 30, 2011 Author Share Posted March 30, 2011 While I'm not an expert on AI in FE7, the latter part of this could be an issue. Unless the right AI is set for the enemy clerics, if they have Light magic equipped, they'll likely splat themselves on the player characters by charging in and attacking with it. And, unless enemy clerics are worlds above player clerics in terms of stats, they'll be just as paper-thin. Then, you have a weak-ish unit even closer to your units, pretty much giving you free EXP. Alternatively, if you set the AI to stand still, then I don't believe the Clerics will run around and heal their allies, meaning that the enemy Cleric would just kinda be there to be there. Feel free to correct me on the AI stuff. Like I said, I'm definitely not an expert in that field. You can give the Cleric's Healing AI. They are slightly tougher than PC Clerics, for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanami Touko Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Because it disrupts the balance. Sure it gives them something over troubadours. It also gives them something over... every other class. Now I can heal and attack with magic all on one unit. Mages suffer from this. Archers suffer from this. Physical classes suffer from this. I'm all for giving clerics a boost, but not at every other class's expense. FE4 implements this well because of the repercussions they suffer. As of now I see nothing that does the same were it not for "light magic coming later" or something. It disrupts nothing. Like mentioned before, you aren't getting your cleric until later, and they won't be getting light magic until later, either. Mages will have access to magic, of course, archers will have access to bow, of course, meaning that they're still themselves, will still be able to do what they're supposed to do, and how the heck do physical units suffer from this? Oh, right, they don't. All this is doing if giving enemy clerics the change to hurt you before you kill them, or maybe even kill you because you left a low HP unit in range. That's it. If this really is "DISRUPTING THE BALANCE OMG" then it's up to Dan, as the hacker, to balance it out. I'm sure he won't have to do much to fix the balance that isn't being disrupted by this. (And, Trent, two things about Diadora and Yuria: 1) They both kinda have the base magic to pound on enemies (something you've said Clerics in DoF won't have) and 2) non-magic enemies in FE4 kinda have minimal Res (for the most part).) The only reason I mentioned Yuria and Diedre, was because they were there. This has existed before in FE, and, now that a hack is using it, people are just going "WTF THIS IS STUPID". Where did I say they won't have high magic? Dan said they probably wouldn't, and they probably won't. Doesn't mean this isn't a good idea for enemies, since, like Dan just mentioned, you can set them to heal only. The light magic is so that you take damage from them when you go to kill them, and it makes them something you actually have to watch out for, not something you can just ignore and kill freely, since most PCs in DoF aren't hot on res. That's really all that it is. Now, if someone can give Dan a GOOD reason not to use light magic for clerics, and not Rein's silly "IT'S BREAKING THE BALANCE, OMG GUYS" argument since, that argument seriously doesn't make any sense with the given information, please do. Otherwise, this is a non-issue, and won't be being changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Incidentally, it is possible to cut the exp that Troubadours get from staves, by tagging them as a promoted class rather than a unpromoted class. It reduces the exp they gain to half that of Clerics. While I'm not an expert on AI in FE7, the latter part of this could be an issue. Unless the right AI is set for the enemy clerics, if they have Light magic equipped, they'll likely splat themselves on the player characters by charging in and attacking with it. And, unless enemy clerics are worlds above player clerics in terms of stats, they'll be just as paper-thin. Then, you have a weak-ish unit even closer to your units, pretty much giving you free EXP. Alternatively, if you set the AI to stand still, then I don't believe the Clerics will run around and heal their allies, meaning that the enemy Cleric would just kinda be there to be there. Unless they change around the exp formula, Clerics would still give shitty exp anyway. I still maintain that my suggestions in Skype yesterday provide a better means of balancing the two classes: > Honestly, if it was me, I'd lower Troub movement to 6 (if it isn't already that low) and give Clerics access to special staves, if they can be weapon locked. (EDIT - Or, if not new special staves, restrict access for Troubadours to healing staves or something.) > (If not, then give Troubs E Rank in Staves and Clerics D or C.) I've always hated the idea of 6->7 move Troubadours. (And, Trent, two things about Diadora and Yuria: 1) They both kinda have the base magic to pound on enemies (something you've said Clerics in DoF won't have) and 2) non-magic enemies in FE4 kinda have minimal Res (for the most part).) Plus, Diadora is basically the worst character in the game. Yuria isn't as bad, but she's still pretty poor. It's not like Claude is particularly good either. Because it disrupts the balance. Sure it gives them something over troubadours. It also gives them something over... every other class. Now I can heal and attack with magic all on one unit. So apparently, there's never been a class that can heal and attack at once, ever in Fire Emblem. In addition, Troubadours have something of their own over Clerics. A mount. Before this, there was basically no competition between Clerics and Troubadours. Now, there is. Mages suffer from this. Archers suffer from this. Physical classes suffer from this. I'm all for giving clerics a boost, but not at every other class's expense. Giving any class any boost at all will reduce the relative usefulness of other classes to some extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arch Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Alright guys, this shitstorm is getting a little ridiculous. The arguments have been made, at the end of the day it's the developer's choice. It's Astra's hack, not yours'. If you're going to not play the hack because Clerics can use Light magic; fine, it's your loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 (edited) Heh, it's a little funny you guys are using characters like Diadora, Yuria, Linoan, etc., when they're not even the equivalent of the class. XD It's not the Shamans/Sisters but rather the Priests/Priestesses, aka Aideen, Saphy, Tina, Corple, etc. Who are, you know, healers that can't attack until promotion, like GBA Clerics/Priests. :/ This isn't the console games that are much more class varied, there is no equivalent of the Sister/Shaman in the GBA games... but anyway... As for this whole argument, I'd accept it either way. I mean, while I'd prefer the usual way (no light magic unpromoted), I don't have the final word on the subject, so why bother...? Edited March 30, 2011 by Acacia Sgt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claude C Kenny Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 wouldn't they be stuck with whichever weapon they used last? so, they choose to heal, you come up and kill them while they have a staff equipped and not worry about a counterattack. problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanami Touko Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 You can't equip staffs in GBA FE, so they'd always revert to the light magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT075 Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 wouldn't they be stuck with whichever weapon they used last? so, they choose to heal, you come up and kill them while they have a staff equipped and not worry about a counterattack. problem solved. Because this is totally Fe10 where you can equip staves. >_> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haze Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 So if I'm intereperating this right: Enemy clerics get access to Light Magic. You get a Troubadour super early. Later on you get a cleric. Even later on, possibly by the point where you've promoted said Troubadour, the cleric gets access to Light Magic without promoting. Is that it? If so I really don't care and will probably stick to the Troubadour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstraLunaSol Posted March 30, 2011 Author Share Posted March 30, 2011 Troub and Cleric get their own promo item to prevent early promo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 The only reason I mentioned Yuria and Diedre, was because they were there. This has existed before in FE, and, now that a hack is using it, people are just going "WTF THIS IS STUPID". I want to point out that "just because FE did it before" doesn't mean that it was balanced or anything. At least, it's not a valid argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanami Touko Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 I want to point out that "just because FE did it before" doesn't mean that it was balanced or anything. At least, it's not a valid argument. True, it was very silly of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 It's not like Diadora or Yuria were broken, or even 'good'. I know Sara and Linoan are good, but I had the impression it had more to do with the generally powerful nature of FE5 staff rank than anything to do with being able to attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haze Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Troub and Cleric get their own promo item to prevent early promo. You're forced to promote them at 20? But.. why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanami Touko Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 (edited) Sara and Linoan are generally epic because of their stats, access to high ranking staves, and access to all magic types, sans dark magic. That, and Sara has Elite+Wrath. You've got Safy and Tina for staff-botting. Most people use Linoan for attacking, and Sara for staffing. @Haze, he meant that you're getting a promotion item for them later, but getting a guiding ring earlier. The troub you get gets levels too quickly, and, to avoid early promotion, he's changed the item, and set it for getting later. Edited March 30, 2011 by seph1212 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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