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QUINTESSENCE? DONT UNDERSTAND


General Banzai
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If you think you are in a position to judge writing, then you'd better damn well be able to produce it on your own (and none of this using another work as an example crap; create your own amazing story, and post it for others to critique). It is far easier to point out the flaws in someone else's work than to create your own flawless work.

For those of you who think that one should be allowed to criticize something without trying it. . .nothing's stopping you from doing it, but it looks awfully petty if you're criticizing something that you have no experience in whatsoever. For example, I don't go around complaining about the gameplay mechanics in Zelda games, because my only experience with the Zelda series was about an hour of A Link to the Past. In this case, it's a story that's on the line, so unless you've had experience with actually creating something from start to finish, it's not a good reflection of the critic if all he does is complain about plot holes when he hasn't tried to create something that doesn't have those problems.

In other words, give it an honest try before bitching about it.

Going by your own logic, the reason you would not be allowed to complain about the gameplay of a Zelda game would be because you can't program a better game, not because you haven't played many of them.

Edited by BrightBow
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There was no reason for time to be a concern. At the time of Ch14, Eliwood's team didn't know anything about the Dread Isle being involved, so if Ephidel had just disappeared to there, there would be no reason for him to expect Eliwood to follow him. Instead, he sticks around, allowing Eliwood's team to follow his actions even more, until they wind up in contact with Leila, who tells them about the Dread Isle, and only because Ephidel didn't bring her with him, instead leaving her behind to waste time that was only a factor because he left her behind. On that note, how'd she get to the Dread Isle so quickly after that, anyway?

Yes, because Eliwood's cadre can march just as quick as a thief plus there's that kerfuffle with Fargus when they do get to Badon. And if they did head straight to the Black Gate from Laus who's to say that Leila wouldn't have tried to leave a message for you before departing.

It's not about her personality or her working for Nergal in her spare time. The issue is her taking control of the Black Fang right in front of Brendan's face and using them for missions that had no basis in the Black Fang's morals. How could he not notice that?

When you believe you have the upper hand its very hard to keep one's arrogance in check. Sonia said she was replacing the Black Fang members one by one with Morphs. You see you might have heard of a thing called subtlety in the past, you know the complete opposite of what this sentence is.

With a reputation like that, it's impossible to believe Brendan couldn't have gotten what he wanted from someone else. And yet for this one woman, he throws it all away, destroying the Black Fang's reputation to that extent in just a year. Yes, she's hot. But for someone who had killed so many people in the name of the Black Fang's morals to let them crumble just for that is unbelievable. To use the religious analogies, Brendan was not simply a follower of his morals, but a priest of his morals, a monk, a zealot. They're supposed to be better at this stuff.

You mean abusing his position in society for his own personal gain? Why, so you could then complain that Brendan being a hypocrite is a plot hole?

And she says the Reed brothers distrusted her... they didn't hide it well enough to keep it from Sonia, but they didn't even suggest it to Brendan, not when the Black Fang's actions were changing so much, so obviously, so fast that their reputation among the citizens fell apart in just a year?

You mean you didn't have it spoon-fed to you that they did, for all we know they tried but Sonia's stranglehold over Brendan was too strong. At the end of Lloyd's chapter he talks about finding a way to expose Sonia. Who could he be trying to expose Sonia too if not Brendan? Jan perhaps? Or maybe Ursula? Hell even Generic Black Fang lackey #27 is in with a fighting chance.

Base or not, invading Caelin was suicidal as well. I don't understand why I've had to repeat this over and over. The moment Darin invaded Caelin, his life was as good as over.

A bit of a stalemate here really since the idea that this surprise invasion might be the spark which triggers the Lycian rebellion by invading a pro-Ostia territory, has also been suggested to you countless times.

Banzai is an amazing writer. I doubt he could be persuaded to post one of his books here in its entirety, but he knows what he's talking about.

Nothing against Banzai and I haven't seen nearly enough to judge how talented an author he is, but you don't seem to be all that good at this subjective malarky really.

But instead, there are only a handful of chapters not made fundamentally... wrong by those flaws.

Your exaggeration doesn't do you any favours either, the countless chapters which you dismissed as filler don't detract from the plot nor do they really add to the plot, but I feel as though they help prevent the game from suffering that huge loss of momentum that both the Deathly Hallows and the Killing Joke fell victim to.

Edited by Mikethfc
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You don't have to be a cook to know you're eating shit. It doesn't matter if it's hard to write, the point is that it wasn't written well and you can tell why.

You're comparing sensory output (that's partially there to make sure we're not eating something that'll kill us) to the byproduct of imagination. Maybe this will hold merit when someone dies due to dehydration because their body rejected the bad writing violently.

Don't get me started on paintings.

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Yes, he is, but the point stands that you don't have to be good at what you're judging to judge it. I'm well within my rights to say something like Avatar the movie was shit when I know for a fact that I couldn't write a movie or produce those special effects, for instance. Banzai is well within his own rights to say that FE7's writing sucks dick regardless of whether or not he can write a better story or anything, especially because he has a very good case in favor of saying so. It's all opinion in the end, but jesus christ just give it up and argue the right points.

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You're comparing sensory output (that's partially there to make sure we're not eating something that'll kill us) to the byproduct of imagination. Maybe this will hold merit when someone dies due to dehydration because their body rejected the bad writing violently.

Don't get me started on paintings.

You can tell if something is bad without being an expert on the subject. Anyone can tell complete shit from something that's decent.

As for paintings, that's the same. You don't have to be an expert on the subject to tell something is good. That's why I have a huge problem with modern "art." Picasso, for example, I'm not a big fan, but he was really good. Look at this:

http://melissapeterson.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/figure-3-guernica.jpg

If you can honestly say you don't think that's good, you must have really high standards.

Then you've got shit that's just a bunch of purple lines that make a grid on an otherwise blank canvas.

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Nergal uses his morphs to gather information. Brendan didn't have morphs at his disposal. How is it unlikely that he didn't know about the actions of a man who lives half way across the continent from him?

It's slightly unlikely since you would think members of the Black Fang, loyal to Brendan, would be passing messages to Brendan about their going ons on the Dread Isle (see Legault). However, it could be argued that Nergal's influence over the fang was such that he was blocking any such Brendan-faction messages from getting through.

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You're comparing sensory output (that's partially there to make sure we're not eating something that'll kill us) to the byproduct of imagination. Maybe this will hold merit when someone dies due to dehydration because their body rejected the bad writing violently.

Don't get me started on paintings.

The point remains that "it's hard to write" is not a valid excuse. If it was, then you could never criticize writing ever.

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It's one thing to be unskilled at something. It's quite another to have never done it before, and attempt to criticize it. The former is something that's been tried before (albeit badly, but it's still an attempt). The latter is talking out of one's ass. For example, would anyone take me seriously if I wrote an essay about the way different beers taste? Bear in mind that I can't drink beer.

IMO, I don't think that picture's very good. However, I also think that my taste in art is debatable, so if anyone asks, I'll tell them to make their own judgments on it.

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Nergal uses his morphs to gather information. Brendan didn't have morphs at his disposal. How is it unlikely that he didn't know about the actions of a man who lives half way across the continent from him?

It's slightly unlikely since you would think members of the Black Fang, loyal to Brendan, would be passing messages to Brendan about their going ons on the Dread Isle (see Legault). However, it could be argued that Nergal's influence over the fang was such that he was blocking any such Brendan-faction messages from getting through.

If you can honestly say you don't think that's good, you must have really high standards.

Then you've got shit that's just a bunch of purple lines that make a grid on an otherwise blank canvas.

I agree that the Picasso, which I'm assuming is Guernica cuz that name sounds familiar and it's in the url, is good. But I could easily see someone saying, "this makes no sense to me, it's weird and also kinda bad cuz it's stupid."

As for the "boring" lines on canvas, I just don't understand why people would pay for something so easily reproducible, but then I don't see why people like hanging art in their homes except as a conversation piece or a way to puff up their egos (note that when I post up random stuff here I am not trying to puff up my ego so much as act like a viral advertisement for other shit). Anyway, in the eye of the beholder is what I say - there's plenty of "nonobjective" art that is very good and interesting to look at.

It's quite another to have never done it before, and attempt to criticize it.

Disagreed. In the example you gave regaring beer, it's OBVIOUS that you would not be a good authority on the TASTE of beer, but it is possible to use analytical ability and rationality to dissuade oneself out of doing something one has not tried and be justified as a result.

Edited by Loki Laufeyjarson
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It's one thing to be unskilled at something. It's quite another to have never done it before, and attempt to criticize it. The former is something that's been tried before (albeit badly, but it's still an attempt). The latter is talking out of one's ass. For example, would anyone take me seriously if I wrote an essay about the way different beers taste? Bear in mind that I can't drink beer.

IMO, I don't think that picture's very good. However, I also think that my taste in art is debatable, so if anyone asks, I'll tell them to make their own judgments on it.

The difficulty of the creation does not matter. What matters is the results. Your beer example does not work, because everyone here has played the game and read the story.

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Why, exactly?

While I just argued against it, the argument has some merit in its right place: there are times when an ARGUMENT against something that has not been DONE is just an attempt to get out of doing it for another reason altogether, and that reason may not really hold water. For instance, "I don't want to drive because I'm worried about the environment" when really it's "I don't want to drive because I'm afraid of dying in a car crash." (me, I mean I DO care about the environment but not as much as about my own skin, in this instance anyway).

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That. Basically they had a ton of ability to add stuff, as NMotE shows us, but they didn't do any of it. Plus like I said, there's some stuff that they took out for no reason, like rescuing, that makes a big impact.

I feel like addressing this, even though it's been posted a few pages before.

FE11 and FE12 aren't games designed to accommodate the use of rescuing. FE12 in particular, I feel, is extremely well designed given the absence of rescuing (just look at some of the overlapping enemy ranges and the AI pull mechanisms), and its introduction would essentially break the game in favor of the player.

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It's one thing to be unskilled at something. It's quite another to have never done it before, and attempt to criticize it. The former is something that's been tried before (albeit badly, but it's still an attempt). The latter is talking out of one's ass. For example, would anyone take me seriously if I wrote an essay about the way different beers taste? Bear in mind that I can't drink beer.

And again adapting the logic of saying "You are not allowed to criticize a story without being able to write a better one" would mean in this example, that you are not allowed to criticizes beer until you can brew better beer.

That's what you were saying, remember?. You can not criticizes something until you can do the same thing without the flaws you described:

If you think you are in a position to judge writing, then you'd better damn well be able to produce it on your own (and none of this using another work as an example crap; create your own amazing story, and post it for others to critique). It is far easier to point out the flaws in someone else's work than to create your own flawless work.

Edit: If I failed in applying your logic to the beer example, then please explain how this is the case.

Edit2: Or how you said anything but 3 friggin times in the above quote alone that you are not allowed to criticize something without being able to create the same king of thing without the flaws you criticized.

Edited by BrightBow
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I do, actually, write. I've written three novels in the past three years and have generally been writing stories and short works since I was in first grade (although they're terribad and I'd hardly count them as credentials that I know how to write).

I'm also an English major at UCLA, so I've had pretty extensive training in writing in that regard.

Anyways, the whole matter of "you need to know how to ______ in order to have an opinion on _______" is silly. You can think what you want. Perhaps knowing how to doing whatever would allow you to appreciate certain technical aspects of that thing (for instance, an amateur filmmaker is more likely to appreciate an explosion in a film than the average theatergoer because they understand the work that goes into making that explosion more than someone less experienced in filmmaking).

Also, I don't see how posting something I've written so you guys can tear it apart has any bearing on the quality of FE7's story anyways.

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It's one thing to be unskilled at something. It's quite another to have never done it before, and attempt to criticize it. The former is something that's been tried before (albeit badly, but it's still an attempt). The latter is talking out of one's ass. For example, would anyone take me seriously if I wrote an essay about the way different beers taste? Bear in mind that I can't drink beer.

IMO, I don't think that picture's very good. However, I also think that my taste in art is debatable, so if anyone asks, I'll tell them to make their own judgments on it.

I didn't say do you like it. I said is it good. They're two very different things. I don't blame you for saying that's bad because you don't like it, most people tend to do that. I'll give you some background on it. It is supposed to depict the destruction of the town of Guernica in the Spanish Civil War. Picasso was trying to convey the chaos and fear of the situation. Now, knowing that, does the painting inspire in you, even somewhat, these feelings? If it does then he's succeeded in his goal. That's what makes it good.

As for your beer analogy, that'd be more along the lines of never having read a story ever and trying to say one is better than the other. As for not being allowed to drink beer, that's cute :D:

It's slightly unlikely since you would think members of the Black Fang, loyal to Brendan, would be passing messages to Brendan about their going ons on the Dread Isle (see Legault). However, it could be argued that Nergal's influence over the fang was such that he was blocking any such Brendan-faction messages from getting through.

I'm not really sure what you mean by this. The initial post was as to why Brendan may not have know about Pascal's massacre, but Nergal seems to know so much.

I agree that the Picasso, which I'm assuming is Guernica cuz that name sounds familiar and it's in the url, is good. But I could easily see someone saying, "this makes no sense to me, it's weird and also kinda bad cuz it's stupid."

Yep, it's Guernica. But again, that's different. That's you saying it's not good because you don't like it. There's a very big difference between something that's good and something that you like. Another example, Cream, the band. I'm not a big fan, but I still acknowledge that they're good. This is also true of Eminem, though he's growing on me. Now there are examples for me that are somewhat different, in that I don't think they're good and I don't like them. This hold true for Charleton Heston, Humphrey Bogart, Yule Brenner, John Wayne, and Marlon Brando. Brando less so than the rest. IMO Brando's just massively overrated, but still decent. The rest just aren't good to the point that it annoys me to watch them.

As for the "boring" lines on canvas, I just don't understand why people would pay for something so easily reproducible, but then I don't see why people like hanging art in their homes except as a conversation piece or a way to puff up their egos (note that when I post up random stuff here I am not trying to puff up my ego so much as act like a viral advertisement for other shit). Anyway, in the eye of the beholder is what I say - there's plenty of "nonobjective" art that is very good and interesting to look at.

Mostly to make their house more appealing to them. It's like which would you rather have: an ugly house or a house that you think is beautiful?

I feel like addressing this, even though it's been posted a few pages before.

FE11 and FE12 aren't games designed to accommodate the use of rescuing. FE12 in particular, I feel, is extremely well designed given the absence of rescuing (just look at some of the overlapping enemy ranges and the AI pull mechanisms), and its introduction would essentially break the game in favor of the player.

I get why they didn't add it, but for the most part IMO it wouldn't have made a big difference. There's rescuing to you, and there's rescuing to most people. And usually they don't overlap. For most people no rescuing means if they get unlucky with a hit the character they sent is screwed and they may have to restart the chapter. To you guys rescuing allows for strategies that break the game of its difficulty, which is why I can understand what you're saying. It'd be like a reverse version of adding con in FE4 and making pursuit not necessary for double attacking. Alvis would go from strong to ridiculously powerful, 70 attack and 30 AS.

Edited by bottlegnomes
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Woman:

Long ago…the lord who ruled this area was an awful man. Every night he would hold an extravagant feast below the castle. Meanwhile, we villagers slowly starved to death. One day, though, it ended. The lord was dead. The Black Fang had given him a death sentence. To us, the Black Fang were heroes. It matters not what others said. That's what makes it so hard… Why did they have to change? Helping you…means that I'm betraying the Black Fang. And yet…I want you to have this.

With a reputation like that, it's impossible to believe Brendan couldn't have gotten what he wanted from someone else. And yet for this one woman, he throws it all away, destroying the Black Fang's reputation to that extent in just a year. Yes, she's hot. But for someone who had killed so many people in the name of the Black Fang's morals to let them crumble just for that is unbelievable. To use the religious analogies, Brendan was not simply a follower of his morals, but a priest of his morals, a monk, a zealot. They're supposed to be better at this stuff.

This proves that Sonia did seduce Brendan. It doesn't make it plausible, which is where the plot issue happened - it occurred, but it shouldn't have occurred.

Have you ever been seduced by a woman? It's harder to say "no" than you're trying to imply. Yes, it is possible to push back, and people do it all the time. But it almost sounds like you're saying that Brendan, through all his zealous years, isn't allowed to have a weak moment. That he can't be human.

Reputation means nothing. Legault has a reputation, and he quickly dismisses it. Ike has a reputation of being a hero/villain (depending on your country), yet he sees himself simply as a mercenary. Very easily could Brenden have this reputation, yet see himself as just some dude doing things.

And "supposed to be better" does not mean "perfect." Priests and such give in to temptation every now and then just as well.

A bigger plot hole would be: Since everyone seems to know about these "assassins for hire" who are killing all these nobles in Bern, why doesn't the Bern military stop them? Really, this should have been taken care of WAY before Nergal was in the picture. Oh, but if that happened then we wouldn't HAVE a plot, now would we?

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I could buy the whole thing with Brendan and Sonia if it wasn't for Jan saying that Brendan never trusted her. If it was implied he became suspicious over time it would be okay but the way Jan phrases it leaves no room for interpretation.

Also I don't know how hard it would be for me to resist seduction but seduction into marriage? That's a stretch.

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A bigger plot hole would be: Since everyone seems to know about these "assassins for hire" who are killing all these nobles in Bern, why doesn't the Bern military stop them? Really, this should have been taken care of WAY before Nergal was in the picture. Oh, but if that happened then we wouldn't HAVE a plot, now would we?

You make it sound as though they could happen to stumble upon an assassin's guild and waltz right in there with ease. Like I said several pages back its entirely possible that they change the location of their hideout from time to time which would also explain why Legault didn't know where they were based.

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For those of you who think that one should be allowed to criticize something without trying it. . .nothing's stopping you from doing it, but it looks awfully petty if you're criticizing something that you have no experience in whatsoever. For example, I don't go around complaining about the gameplay mechanics in Zelda games, because my only experience with the Zelda series was about an hour of A Link to the Past. In this case, it's a story that's on the line, so unless you've had experience with actually creating something from start to finish, it's not a good reflection of the critic if all he does is complain about plot holes when he hasn't tried to create something that doesn't have those problems.

In other words, give it an honest try before bitching about it.

This is the Written Works forum. This is where writing goes.

Normally, I'd say short story, but I know what a complete and utter pain it can be to create one. I may not be the good writer, but I am willing to put my stuff out in public for others to comment on. Which reminds me, I owe my story another chapter.

As for YOU. . .I suggest attempting to create your own story, without asking for plot/character help before putting it out for everyone else to see. Since you are SO good at seeing mistakes, I'm sure whatever you publish will be perfect, so all you should receive are good comments.

I've attempted to create a story for an FE game. I never finished it; it's a skeleton plot that hasn't been filled in, and I don't think I ever came up with anything creative enough for the story to be all that interesting. I won't claim it to be good enough to be worth posting. I did find myself having to deal with problems with the story, and worked on cleaning up and avoiding each of them, even when it wasn't easy. I know what it's like.

Again, Legault may have just killed them because they were incapable of imprisoning them. Though to be honest, I really just wanted to see if you'd catch that.

Legault: Yep. As the cleaner, I was responsible for executing anyone who betrayed the Fang. Black Fang members never beg for mercy. They’d rather die than be captured. It’s ‘cause they know... What happens to traitors. You can never run from the cleaner. That’s Fang law. I worked to protect that law.

Also, they could imprison Pascal, apparently.

What'd you think it meant?

My view of the quote was that Legault was saying Jaffar, as an infant, had somehow committed a massacre.

Yes, because Eliwood's cadre can march just as quick as a thief plus there's that kerfuffle with Fargus when they do get to Badon. And if they did head straight to the Black Gate from Laus who's to say that Leila wouldn't have tried to leave a message for you before departing.

It's not the speed that's the issue; it's the method. Travel to Valor isn't easy to get, and Ephidel and Darin had to have already left by that time.

Maybe they would've gotten the message, maybe they wouldn't have. Either way, sticking around only increased the likelihood that they'd learn important things about the Black Fang until the point where they did. Eliwood's team couldn't have done a thing to stop the Black Fang until Leila was left behind to run into them.

When you believe you have the upper hand its very hard to keep one's arrogance in check. Sonia said she was replacing the Black Fang members one by one with Morphs. You see you might have heard of a thing called subtlety in the past, you know the complete opposite of what this sentence is.

I can't find a coherent and relevant point in these sentences.

You mean abusing his position in society for his own personal gain? Why, so you could then complain that Brendan being a hypocrite is a plot hole?

I mean I'd expect him to have people lining up.

You mean you didn't have it spoon-fed to you that they did, for all we know they tried but Sonia's stranglehold over Brendan was too strong. At the end of Lloyd's chapter he talks about finding a way to expose Sonia. Who could he be trying to expose Sonia too if not Brendan? Jan perhaps? Or maybe Ursula? Hell even Generic Black Fang lackey #27 is in with a fighting chance.

In the scene with Brendan, he seems completely clueless, as if there had been no warning whatsoever.

I'd check the exact quote from Lloyd, but Serenes doesn't have his chapter. Do you have the line?

A bit of a stalemate here really since the idea that this surprise invasion might be the spark which triggers the Lycian rebellion by invading a pro-Ostia territory, has also been suggested to you countless times.

That could have happened, but it can't have been their intention. It's clear that no such thing happened, so if Darin and/or Ephidel had expected it to, in talking about fleeing to Valor, the primary reason would have been the failure of the pro-Laus territories to respond, and they would have said as much, but they said no such thing.

Your exaggeration doesn't do you any favours either, the countless chapters which you dismissed as filler don't detract from the plot nor do they really add to the plot, but I feel as though they help prevent the game from suffering that huge loss of momentum that both the Deathly Hallows and the Killing Joke fell victim to.

Occasional filler can't really be held against the plot. When the filler is more than the relevant, logical parts of the story, there's an issue. Momentum needs to be kept up by substance, not filler.

Edited by Othin
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A bigger plot hole would be: Since everyone seems to know about these "assassins for hire" who are killing all these nobles in Bern, why doesn't the Bern military stop them? Really, this should have been taken care of WAY before Nergal was in the picture. Oh, but if that happened then we wouldn't HAVE a plot, now would we?

Well, to start, the Black Fang only targeted corrupted nobles and the like. While not entirely innocent here, they may have been cut some slack due to that. Also, it doesn't seem like their presence is actually a nuisance. It was only with Nergal's influence that basically anyone was a fair target. But at this point there probably was no need to get rid of them, in fact, the King had requested them to assassinate Zephiel.

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You make it sound as though they could happen to stumble upon an assassin's guild and waltz right in there with ease. Like I said several pages back its entirely possible that they change the location of their hideout from time to time which would also explain why Legault didn't know where they were based.

If they are so hard to find, how would anyone be able to hire them? Leila managed to waltz right in there no problem, why couldn't Bern do the same?

EDIT:

Well, to start, the Black Fang only targeted corrupted nobles and the like. While not entirely innocent here, they may have been cut some slack due to that. Also, it doesn't seem like their presence is actually a nuisance. It was only with Nergal's influence that basically anyone was a fair target. But at this point there probably was no need to get rid of them, in fact, the King had requested them to assassinate Zephiel.

That would be reason to keep them around. But seeing as how easy it was for Jaffar and Nino, Ursula's army, and Eliwood and Co. to break in there, I doubt the Black Fang's help would be entirely necessary.

Edited by 1st Mate Bob
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That would be reason to keep them around. But seeing as how easy it was for Jaffar and Nino, Ursula's army, and Eliwood and Co. to break in there, I doubt the Black Fang's help would be entirely necessary.

Except that Desmond had left the place deserted or almost deserted so that it would be easier for them to kill him. And also, he wanted an outsider force to do it so he wouldn't become a suspect right away. After all, it was well-known that he disliked Zephiel, or at least, known enough.

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I could buy the whole thing with Brendan and Sonia if it wasn't for Jan saying that Brendan never trusted her. If it was implied he became suspicious over time it would be okay but the way Jan phrases it leaves no room for interpretation.

Also I don't know how hard it would be for me to resist seduction but seduction into marriage? That's a stretch.

I already sorta refuted this, but I know many people in real life that say they "never trusted x person" which was quite clearly a lie. There's a chance that, early on, there was a lot of trust between Brendan and Sonia but not long after marriage it sorta began to dissipate -- of course, there's also the chance that Brendan could be in denial of this dying trust, but it's not at all too much of a stretch.

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I already sorta refuted this, but I know many people in real life that say they "never trusted x person" which was quite clearly a lie. There's a chance that, early on, there was a lot of trust between Brendan and Sonia but not long after marriage it sorta began to dissipate -- of course, there's also the chance that Brendan could be in denial of this dying trust, but it's not at all too much of a stretch.

Brendan investigated Sonia's past. That makes it hard to imagine he really trusted her the whole time.

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