RNG Abuse

[eclipse]

In doing this, you're already manipulating the RNG. Even though it's a minor change, it's still changing your actions to work with the RNs that are upcoming (and they are always fixed in the GBA games, so you know exactly what can be coming and plan ahead). If this is acceptable to you, why not something else?

Because I can't predict what else I altered because of that one change. I work with the consequences of that action only. If I use true hit, the odds of that scenario happening are 4.8%.

Think of this in another way: I like seafood. Ask me to eat uni (sea urchin insides), however, and I will refuse. Just because I like seafood doesn't mean I like to eat every single thing that's classified as seafood. Likewise, just because I know of something that may or may not help, doesn't mean I'm gonna affect everything with it.

[Integrity]

If full control over the RNG is assumed, then any run that tries to achieve something essentially has to be a TAS, or it's invalid. Essentially, that makes every run played on cartridge obsolete too.

This man speaks the truth.

Any anyway, there's a whole lot of difference between "my franz needs a 1% crit to shave this one turn" RN abuse and "celice gets hit by four consecutive 18% boltings and dies" RN abuse. In the former, I hope to hell if you think it's okay you don't draft. In the latter, the chances of the action going another way are much, much higher (like resetting to *prevent* a 1% crit) which changes things.

Game also changes things, and situation. RN abusing in the GBA games is logistically illogical on cartridge without knowledge of the RN system. Knowledge of the RN system is something you can only get on an emulator with a script. PROTIP: if you're using scripts for drafts you're doing it wrong. FE9 BEXP abuse, though? It's tedious but fully possible on disc, so why not. That doesn't mean I want to see everybody magically getting perfect levelups on every dose of BEXP - which is why the 1bexp thing is banned - but rigging a few STR/SPD levels for Boyd is whatever. FE10 and Battle Saves/FE11 and Map Saves? Same shit. I don't want them used for 1% crit abuse but things that actually have a decent shot of happening are a totally different story.

The only exception I make to all of that is ridiculous RNG crapshoots like all FE6 bosses and Alvis.

[The Spanish Inquisition]

Yes, we know the power is there. Stuff like displaying the RNG in GBA games is prohibited for a reason.

Where? I've looked through Drafting Tournaments Explained (Granted, just the OPs, I'm not digging through 93 pages for where it was prohibited) and could not find such a rule.

If such a rule exists, and I am just not aware of it, I will gladly take note of it.

Oh, and we all know that this thread was caused by my post in DTE, so I might as well try to clarify the point.

What annoys me is that certain people are fine with (in FE8) rigging a 2 turn prologue win, but not fine with a similar situation later on.

Granted, the situation I encountered was the result of me trying a particular chapter about five different ways (with over 100 smaller variations on each of those ways) to get the result that I needed a 1% crit to get the 4 turn win I was looking for.

[PKL]

FE8 prologue rigging is fine because you just need to burn a single RN and its of little consequence. When you start a new game, the RNG is fixed. Including Chapter 1 I think, if you keep playing.

[Integrity]

Where? I've looked through Drafting Tournaments Explained (Granted, just the OPs, I'm not digging through 93 pages for where it was prohibited) and could not find such a rule.

If such a rule exists, and I am just not aware of it, I will gladly take note of it.

No, it's not *officially* prohibited. Neither's using the JP version, or savestating before every single action. Technically there's nothing in DTE about abusing the Mine Glitch or even memory hacking a save.

Do you see the logical fallacy of your statement?

EDIT: And the FE8 RN burn is, as PKL said, a guaranteed thing. Cart or ROM, you know that burning one RN will cause that sequence of events every time - yet there are still people (well, okay, me) who don't do it.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Integrity

[The Spanish Inquisition]

FE8 prologue rigging is fine because you just need to burn a single RN

Bullshit. You need the enemy to not hit twice. First three enemy hit chances are 40%=30% true hit (this assumes no critical, if critical [14%], chance of another critical is also 14%, making total chance of both crits occurring ~2%, so we'll ignore that case). The fourth hit chance is 25%=12.75% true hit, (from surviving non-boss enemy of turn 1). Then the chances of the enemy hitting no times or only once is .2786875+3*.1194375+.0437325=~.68%. Multiplying that with the chance of a critical, we get a chance of a 2 turn win being a little under 10%.

More later.

[Integrity]

Bullshit. You need the enemy to not hit twice. First three enemy hit chances are 40%=30% true hit (this assumes no critical, if critical [14%], chance of another critical is also 14%, making total chance of both crits occurring ~2%, so we'll ignore that case). The fourth hit chance is 25%=12.75% true hit, (from surviving non-boss enemy of turn 1). Then the chances of the enemy hitting no times or only once is .2786875+3*.1194375+.0437325=~.68%. Multiplying that with the chance of a critical, we get a chance of a 2 turn win being a little under 10%.

More later.

Except that the RNG is fixed, which means that the actual chance of a 2 turn win is 100% because the RNG will always shake out that way.

[Baldrick]

See, this is where I disagree. The Pandora's Box has been opened on the knowledge about the RNG. Understanding how the game works doesn't necessarily make things less trivial, or sometimes even less difficult. In many ways, it opens up new possibilities and new strategies. Even in a TAS, there's certain things that are just impossible - or so improbable that it would take far too long to achieve - and there are still limits on what is capable. There's no 'godlike control' as you put it. But you can nudge things in your favour.

Merely having the knowledge is one thing. I know that if I burn enough RNs, that 1% crit can be pulled off. But actually trying to do it, in a draft, is another thing. I just don't think it should be used to gain a competitive advantage. Burning RNs in order to stop a unit from dying is alright, if you're past the point of no return. It's just like resetting, but you're not wasting half an hour of real time to reach that point in the chapter again.

yet there are still people (well, okay, me) who don't do it.

I don't do it either. Aren't I special?

[Refa]

rng aboose until somevun catches u

then deny everything

works every time

(my rule of thumb is that if you can't do it on the cart/disc don't do it in a draft although there might be some exceptions for extenuating circumstances like creating scripted videos although i may be biased in that aspect)

I don't do it either. Aren't I special?

Your dligence has increased!

Edited April 20, 2012 by Refa

[aku chi]

FE9 BEXP abuse, though? It's tedious but fully possible on disc, so why not.

Because it's tedious.

[Integrity]

Because it's tedious.

I mean why not allow it, not why not do it. Heaven knows I don't have the patience for it.

[13th]

There are people that take no resetting too far...like 13th :/. He doesnt reset if an FE8 draft character dies, its crazy.

And it provides new challenges to an already easy-as-hell game.

In terms of the question at hand, I only do it WHEN I see no other way to get what I want done done. I have rigged 5% crits in FE11 on bosses, I have actually rigged Eirika's survival.

But the other thing worth mentioning is that when people RNG manipulate/abuse, they're too focused on winning the draft to have fun with the game. The thing for me is having fun with the game. Its why I always draft poor teams in FE8 and such. Because its fun with who I want to pick, not the best possible picks. So for me, drafting isn't a competition. Its about having fun in a new way. And when it was not being fun, it was why I kept trying to quit from drafting.

And about PKL's statement again: I do reset if a draft character dies. Just only if its someone I want to keep using.

Edited April 20, 2012 by 13th Folgore White

[Anouleth]

Except that the RNG is fixed, which means that the actual chance of a 2 turn win is 100% because the RNG will always shake out that way.

That's how RNG abuse works. You can tell it's RNG abuse because it always works.

What exactly is RNG abuse? It is using foreknowledge of the RN string, which is supposed to be hidden from players, to the player's advantage. The RNG string for FE8 Prologue is well known and easy to perform: but it is no less RNG abuse.

[Integrity]

That's how RNG abuse works. You can tell it's RNG abuse because it always works.

What exactly is RNG abuse? It is using foreknowledge of the RN string, which is supposed to be hidden from players, to the player's advantage. The RNG string for FE8 Prologue is well known and easy to perform: but it is no less RNG abuse.

The difference, IMO, between most RN abuse and that *specific* string of events (I mean EXACTLY the 2-turn FE8 Prologue clear) is that it is widespread, easy to perform (ridiculously), and works on cartridge (you never have to boot up an emulator to peek at the string).

Frankly, I'd be much happier if people didn't do the 2-turn Prologue clear because it IS RNG abusing, but it's of a different magnitude than what we're discussing here.

[dondon151]

The difference, IMO, between most RN abuse and that *specific* string of events (I mean EXACTLY the 2-turn FE8 Prologue clear) is that it is widespread, easy to perform (ridiculously), and works on cartridge (you never have to boot up an emulator to peek at the string).

Frankly, I'd be much happier if people didn't do the 2-turn Prologue clear because it IS RNG abusing, but it's of a different magnitude than what we're discussing here.

This is how the RNG for the GBA games works for every chapter.

Remember when I posted that 95-turn "solution" to ChinaFE HM? Basically, that.

[eclipse]

Once I leave, say, FE8's prologue, I have no idea what will happen.

[Paperblade]

tbh topics like this make me want to just mod my ROM to increase PC growths because I find RNG abuse tedious and dull

since hurr it's not technically against the rules

[Loki Laufeyson]

I dont RNG abuse. Like ever. (Aside from resetting when a character dies or some junk from a crit)

I have had to reset before when Marcia in FE9 kept getting like three empty levels in a row. That was BULLSHIT! But other than that, yeah nah. I think it kinda takes away some of the fun of the game. Seeing how various units end up and situations play out.

[dondon151]

Once I leave, say, FE8's prologue, I have no idea what will happen.

that's only because you don't invest the time in finding out. you can probably solve the first 3 chapters of FE8 easily with not much time investment.

[Hawk King]

Yeah, every Chapter in the GBA FEs has a "fixed" RN string assuming you reset the string at the start of the Chapter. FE8's Prologue is just the most well known.

For example, Chapter 10 Eirika mode's 3rd RN is like a 3 or a 4, so almost anyone will score a critical hit if you attack right away on PP.

Like dondon said, if you follow a turn by turn "script" of what actions to take you can have identical playthroughs every time you play.

[Anouleth]

The difference, IMO, between most RN abuse and that *specific* string of events (I mean EXACTLY the 2-turn FE8 Prologue clear) is that it is widespread, easy to perform (ridiculously), and works on cartridge (you never have to boot up an emulator to peek at the string).

I know that there was a fairly well-known Chapter 11 strategy for FE7 HHM that always succeeded and always got Hector a good level up.

Really, RNG abusing is still RNG abusing even when it is widespread and easy to perform. And you could replicate it on a cartridge, it would just be far more time-consuming than using savestates, which is in turn more time consuming than using a script to examine the RN string.

[aku chi]

tbh topics like this make me want to just mod my ROM to increase PC growths because I find RNG abuse tedious and dull

since hurr it's not technically against the rules

Don't forget to mod your ROM so that player units always hit and crit and enemy units always miss!

[Paperblade]

On another note, I don't like the "We know how to manipulate the RNG so we should be allowed to" argument. I could stack a deck but there's not a single card game I'm aware of (be it with a traditional 52 card deck or a TCG) that allows people to stack a deck.

[Zanarkin]

I'm not against it. Can't say i haven't done it myself. I'm a bit shaky on resetting many times for 1% crits, however, I could not understand why PKL and soul went against Quin in an FE10 draft where he got "lucky" thrice. I know, apparently, rules changed for FE10 drafts, but in the draft quin was in there was no rule stating anything against RNG abuse (and to expect others not to go overboard is just ridiculous without a rule) and therefore soul and PKL's scorn towards quin's "luck" was rather undeserved. Of course, my interjection upon that topic was just ignored and Quin just gave in :/

Edited April 20, 2012 by SlayerX

[Integrity]

(and to expect others not to go overboard is just ridiculous without a rule)

Is it so wrong for me to not want to have to cover *every possible eventuality* with the rules? If it flies, drafts boil down to either optimal strategery or whoever wants it more (read: is willing to reset the most).