I Can't Believe It's Not SFMM3 Minimafia - Game Over

[Grace]

Also Manix and Elieson need to stop acting dumb

this post Paper.

but it's okay now, I don't feel the need to push it

I think I can probably figure why you said it in the first place

[Sunwoo]

Okay, I'm going to go to bed soon and I have a long day tomorrow, so I'll be off for a significant time in the morning. But so far, this is what I'm getting.

Weapons: I still don't get your whole "scumwatch" thing. It's entirely possible that I missed it, but why are Manix and Helios scummy? (More specifically, why were they scummy at the time you made your post?)

Speaking of Helios, why exactly is he scummy? (I think at least one non-Weapons person said so.) He hasn't existed much, but during that short time he did exist I didn't get anything particularly weird or unsettling about him.

Paperblade: I don't know why, but at the moment I just do not like you. I'll have to look at you more closely tomorrow.

Elieson: At first glance, he seems to be posting a lot, but I don't feel like it's contributing to the discussion. So ... I'm not entirely happy with him either. But I've also never played a game with Elieson, so I don't know if he's always like this or not.

I believe Cam's miller claim for now, and right now nothing else particularly seems to set me off.

[Paperblade]

this post Paper.

but it's okay now, I don't feel the need to push it

I think I can probably figure why you said it in the first place

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34918&view=findpost&p=2110274

this post was dumb, I don't think anyone has ever accidentally been lynched during RVS

Then you and Elieson jumped on Weapons for calling it out as stupid and misrep'd him a bunch

which is scummy

[Grace]

okay, I can see that post being kinda silly

although before that statement you made, I never even addressed those posts (gut feeling on Weapons' posts was the driving force behind the vote, not because I was calling him out, a la: )

I actually have a legit D1 feeling that Weapons might be scum

##Unvote

##Vote: Weapons

[Paperblade]

Yeah typically you vote people because you think they're scum

what about his posts were scummy, the obvious joke "Let's lynch this guy for inactivity 15 minutes into the game" or the part where he pointed out that Elieson's fears were unfounded?

[Grace]

I explained my reasons why in another post. Also, ED1 votes (hi RVS) are not likely to get someone lynched, you said it yourself (or at least to that effect). (And so did Weapons)

Note also that I'm not voting him now. I somehow think there won't be a Weapons wagon today at all anyway (to analyse said reactions that the Weapons post detailed). So I'm just going to have to deal with it, but maybe his posts tomorrow might change my mind about him being slightly scummy.

Also in other unrelated news: This post by Aere is genuinely awful. Also, iirc, his only other post was an RVS post. So Aere, do you actually have opinions about anyone else in the game or not?

[Paperblade]

You don't get to vote people and then come up with reasons they're scummy later

You voted him like 30 posts before the post you linked in your post

[Grace]

did you miss the point about gut feeling

I think you did

the reasons in the latter post was me trying to consolidate why I had those gut feelings

[Paperblade]

Yeah except your gut feeling doesn't make sense and makes me think you are either mafia or are trying to rationalize a nonsensical read

[Grace]

it might not make sense to you, fine. but it makes sense to me, sooooooooooo yeah. If you want to keep attacking my playstyle, I won't respond further.

the second case, if my gut feeling is wrong (which it could well be)

[Prims]

Elieson (4) - CT075, Paperblade, Weapons, Shinori

CT075 (2) - Strider, San

Manix (1) - Aere

Paperblade (1) - Helios

Not Voting - Bluedoom, Elieson, Manix, scorri, Seoyeon

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to hammer. You have about 61.5 hours left in the day.

[Bluedoom]

Posting to confirm that I'm playing. Will be reading now.

[Bluedoom]

Ok so I'm kinda busy and I'm gonna re-read later

[Elieson]

Ok good morning. RVS is obviously finished, so i'll stop trying to rationalize against it.

I guess I'll finish being an idiot now, because it was obviously my intention to make myself look not only unintelligent, but also scummy, worthy of 4/7 votes.

For starters, I would absolutely love to see more from Aere/Seo, and actually anything from Marth, but life I guess.

Aere's post didn't look like he is voting for manix for any serious reason, and I don't particularly like it. Seo looked lazy/wagony, not too good imo. Helios could stand to like, talk about something for an extended period of time, too.

Manix and Paper are arguing over playstyles, not pressing anything on eachother really. Coming off to me as intown bickering.

Since Shinori asked ever so politely: I don't have a vote on anyone because apparently my only scumread up until now, which was WoMC, had created a consensus for everyone to look at me as belittling as possible. I'm not being defensive against WoMC, I'm being offemsive against him, because I seriously believe that he is full of shit with his arguments, and struggling to create a wagon on me to keep attention.focused on me. I'm not sure if he is scum, or extremely close-minded town, but it's rather irritating both ways. Anything I do will look like OMGUS, which is bad in general. What are you saying, that I should keep my vote on WoMC, and spend the next 60 hours trying to convince you all that I'm voting for a legit reason, not OMGUS?

##Vote WoMC

Call it OMGUS if you want, if it helps your sleep at night. I'm not, and don't actually think you should either.

Shinori, let me ask you something. Your posts seems pretty focused on me, or asking others what they think of me. Why are you so incapable of seeing Weapons as scum?

You are being so bouncy, pointing fingers on manix and paper and me, and waffling on WoMC because of what, meta meta meta?

---

Rereading more. Cute Weapons, cute.

You keep it up, on me that I'm

apparently some sort of criminal mastermind wannabe, incapable of fooling even the most stillborn of infants. That's your whole argument against me, and you are fishing for reasons to park a vote on me.

I realize I digressed quite a bit with the whole RVS argument, but that's something that's really outside of the context of town or scum. When I get back tomorrow, I'll probably do the same with meta.

I re-read Elieson's best formatted post, and it's actually empty calories. So those points are gone.

OR, my posts are intentionally against you, calling your logic closer-minded, spotty and flawed. Start looking at the rest of the game.

[Shinori]

Town reads on Kay, Helios, and cam, Scum reads on Elieson and Paperblade, Null on mostly everyone else. Still don't know what to think of Weapons because last game I thought he was scum early swapped to town, and he was scum. Whatever.

Questions.

@Weapons: How long have you thought Elieson was scummy? If you thought he was scummy way back when you were telling him he was wrong about your arguments why wasn't he on your scum watch? And why did you think manix was scummier than him at that point in time?

@Paperblade: Where are you? Could I get your opinion on Elieson and Weapons? You probably know weapons more than me so that would be helpful.

@Elieson: Why don't you have a vote at the moment? Who is scum Elie? You seem to be too defensive towards weapons and it seems like you aren't scum hunting, why not?

@Cam: You are most likely town in my eyes, opinions on Paperblade and Manix if you don't mind?

None of this is meta. The only thing related whatsoever about meta is weapons opinion because I find his general play different.

Also if you look at the 4 questions I asked at 4 different players, 2 of them involved you, one of the questions was at you, and the last one doesn't involve you at all. One players opinions on someone may differ and change the way a situation reads. For example I really didn't like the way paperblade chose to not answer my question when Elieson is the biggest wagon at the moment and Weapons is the person who pretty much started that wagon, besides Cam.

Also I'm not pointing any fingers at Manix. I haven't once said he was a scum read of mine, at least I don't remember me saying that, pretty sure I only said paper and yourself were my two scum reads.

[CT075]

##unvote

@Cam: You are most likely town in my eyes, opinions on Paperblade and Manix if you don't mind?

Paperblade seems to be kind of active lurking, not really contributing much; i have a bad feeling about him

Manix looks townish

It's not a matter of whether you should have claimed as miller. You said there was no drawback to useless roles claiming.

[Aere]

Holy crap, how is my Manix vote sheepy/wagony? I'm literally the only vote on him right now.

On that note, Manix, you're awfully defensive whenever somebody calls you dumb or scummy.

it might not make sense to you, fine. but it makes sense to me, sooooooooooo yeah. If you want to keep attacking my playstyle, I won't respond further.

the second case, if my gut feeling is wrong (which it could well be)

Woah, does nobody else see any problems with this?

[Bluedoom]

Ok so I finished reading stuff, so here's what I think at this point:

Kay's vote on Cam wasn't scummy at all and I find it weird that Helios just jumped on to that immediately. Also find it worse that Helios jumped on paper over active lurking and Paper has already stated reasons which I agree with. Slight scum read on Helios as of now.

Elieson looks very defensive and paranoid atm which does not look very good. Meta suggests that his rant about RVS is usual, but his overreaction to Weapons' vote doesn't look very good in my eyes. Further defensive behavior and a counterattack don't really look good as of now. That said now that RVS is out of play, what do you two have to say about the rest atm?

The Manix vs Paperblade debacle honestly looks silly tbh. Don't like Manix's reaction to Paperblade calling him out- there was no need to bring your argument over from the theater thread to this one. You basically got suspicious of Paper just because he called you out, and you don't like Aere because he voted you. Sure it'd be nice of Aere to post his opinions on the rest, but I do think he has a point on you. Also if you don't like Weapons' play at this point do you view Elieson as townish? ##Vote: Manix Btw, gut feeling is such a convenient argument, it isn't even funny.

Aere, I understand your vote for Manix, but it'd be better if you'd give out other reads. Would like you to state more than just a Manix vote. Also don't like Boron, Scorri, Helios and whoever else decided to argue with Camtech about his bad idea of useless roles claiming. That discussion can stay in the Info Dump thread or General discussion thread, that discussion doesn't get us anywhere in scumhunting. I'd rather we not have a Xenoblade repeat, man those first couple of cycles were horrible.

Simply put I don't see why Paperblade is looking bad or scummy at the moment. If anything he's only calling out people and trying to scumhunt, nothing wrong with that. Also didn't find any problems with the Cam wagon earlier, it was bound to dissolve anyway, and 3 votes is not enough for a lynch. Like Paper said, if town is really that dumb to get four more votes on that wagon simply due to RVS and other weird reasons, god bless us.

[Bluedoom]

Oh that said, doesn't mean that we should let a wagon go unnoticed. Just wanted to say how silly it was to be scared of RVS lynching more than anything.

Also noticed this:

Not just that person. Look at how everyone was like "oh no, why would you wagon in rvs!"

I get that you'd want a reaction from a player but really that reaction I've quoted is pretty normal(ok fine instead of RVS a wagon out of nowhere in any situation warrants that reaction) So I honestly dunno what you can get fom other players.

[Bluedoom]

Oh yeah and finally I'd like it if Cam, you'd actually explain your unvote. If it is "Eli had many votes on his wagon!" then he was still at L-3, he was in no danger of getting lynched.

[scorri]

it might not make sense to you, fine. but it makes sense to me, sooooooooooo yeah. If you want to keep attacking my playstyle, I won't respond further.

the second case, if my gut feeling is wrong (which it could well be)

Woah, does nobody else see any problems with this?

Not really actually. Manix was in a bad mood most of yesterday, and Paper calling his playing style "dumb" and saying that gut reads don't make sense (they're gut reads, you don't always know why you have them right away, Manix then later figured out why he felt how he did and explained it, so I see no problem there) is attacking his playing style for no good reason and doesn't actually do anything useful at all and just makes it more likely that there will be a fight about this later on. Honestly, ignoring someone that is simply attacking your playstyle and not giving any real reasoning behind it is not the worst thing in the world. It prevents possible in-town fights and allows for less confusion.

Marth: I don't like your post one bit.

a) Manix isn't just bringing in his argument with Paper from Theatre into this thread. He is bringing a similar argument that has grounds here as well. In addition, I'm pretty sure Manix was saying that Aere's post wasn't a good one for his reasoning, not his vote if you go and look at his response to the post. And honestly, Aere's vote does look a little opportunistic because Manix is in a situation that could easily make him look scummy if turned the right way.

b) So making one post about how I think claiming miller was a good idea and then moving on to other things is arguing now? To me this feels like you're using claim discussion as an excuse to call out people as scummy without any other support for it. There's also no point in bringing it up again since we have moved on from it. We're clearly not going to spend lots of time on it when the argument is essentially over.

c) That vote on Manix. Sure gut feeling is a convenient excuse, but it's also a legitimate way to start playing a mafia game. When there's not a lot to go on gut reads are really the only thing you have. In addition, gut reads can be very useful sometimes. I'm not saying that you should go solely off of gut reads, but if you have a gut feeling, you should try and figure out why you feel that way and then explain it when you do understand it. It also seems like an opportunistic jump on someone who is seeming slightly scummy due to an argument about play style and such.

##Vote: Bluedoom

[CT075]

Oh yeah and finally I'd like it if Cam, you'd actually explain your unvote. If it is "Eli had many votes on his wagon!" then he was still at L-3, he was in no danger of getting lynched.

i had no reason to leave it on him

[Aere]

First off, I had no idea Manix was in any sort of mood. However, I don't think that should matter. You can't get a free pass.

Also, why is my vote opportunistic? I was the first one to vote him...

[scorri]

Opportunistic doesn't always mean that someone else is voting for him. It can mean taking advantage of a situation where it can be easy to twist something to look scummy and get other people to believe you. Manix was frustrated, understandably so, at Paper for attacking his playstyle. This caused an argument, and him eventually saying that he was going to start ignoring comments from Paper that were attacking his playstyle. This can be misrepresented and twisted to make it look scummy when there may not be anything inherently scummy in it. That's all. I'm not saying I find you to be super scummy for it, I'm just saying how it seems kinda opportunistic.

[Aere]

I have my eye on you.

This is the part of that post which caught my eye the most. The rest was just icing on the cake.