Shining Force 2 Mafia: Game Over

[BBM]

I'm 95% sure SB is scum and I'll explain why tomorrow (if I die, though I doubt I will, my flip should hopefully make it obvious).

[Elieson]

Another lovely ModDerp. Balcerzak and Baldrick's flips have both been modified to reflect proper information.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Elieson

[BBM]

The format of the post with Baldrick's flip is messed up now. Also, Bal was Vanilla at the end, okay.

[Elieson]

The format of the post with Baldrick's flip is messed up now.

Was impossible to fix on my phone. On PC now, and fix'd. Sorry for the error.

[eclipse]

Marth probably is a Rolecop. It's his alignment that's in question.

I see what you're saying about Scorri's word not being decisive. I just don't understand your refusal to claim. Yeah, some roles are better off not outed. But at this stage, unless there's a restriction that would make you die if you claimed, I can't think of a reason not to claim. It helps us narrow down the scum, and your claim is more helpful to the town than getting your role after mislynching you would be, if you were town.

I'll say more about my role come tomorrow. I'm pretty sure that I won't be their target.

I'm 95% sure SB is scum and I'll explain why tomorrow (if I die, though I doubt I will, my flip should hopefully make it obvious).

I think you should put something in your announcement as to why, in case you're shot. This might be related to what happened N4; if so, then I might be able to clear someone else on the basis of (stuff). . .but we'll have to see the result of your flip first.

[eclipse]

Oh, right. I believe Marth sees roles too. . .but he would've had to have scanned his own teammate on N0 or the numbers don't work out. I don't like making long posts with long lists of things that I feel would be picked up if the reader is paying attention/taking good notes, but if necessary, JUST THIS ONCE, I can do scenario-based reasoning and (dis)prove things accordingly.

[BBM]

Eh, IMO, we should still lynch SB tomorrow and worry about you/Marth/Rein afterwards, when we've got more Cop reports under our belt. Of course, SB who I'm pretty sure is scum scanned town, so I don't know how much we can trust our Cop reports.

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

Why is it that every townie I scan is suggested for lynch anyway

[Paperblade]

##Vote: Sho

[eclipse]

Why is it that every townie I scan is suggested for lynch anyway

SB: Whatever BBM is sitting on

Shinori: Lying about his role

Everyone else: You tell me

[BBM]

Even disregarding what I'm sitting on, why is nobody else jumping on the fact that SB said he got redirected away from Bal on N1, but Cam's report has him visiting Bal on N1? These two things meant they were in a 1v1 against each other- except Cam's already flipped town.

Also, SB apparently breadcrumbed something about all of humanity dying in one of his early posts. How exactly is that a town breadcrumb? Plus, he softclaimed Oracle or Rogue very hard by asking to get shot multiple times. Except according to Cam's reports, he targeted Sho, the confirmed AC, several times, who doesn't make a sensible choice for a target for either of these roles.

[Shinori]

SB: Whatever BBM is sitting on

Shinori: Lying about his role

Everyone else: You tell me

Cause no other townie ever has lied about their role to try and accomplish something for the greater good. EVER.

[charlie_]

BBM, would I really be godfather+some kind of targetting role who asks to be shot constantly by the claimed vig? Even if I was on a scumteam with Bal this had the potential to go wrong if the real vig shot Bal (we have a dayvig anyway, but how could I have known that?), and Bal and Kay both wanted me dead at some point too. If I was on the other scumteam, I wouldn't have any reason to disbelieve Bal was vig, and wouldn't ask to be shot, aside from if Marth was scum with me. I double checked with Eli about the redirect thing, just because Cam's reports showed me still visiting. Also if I was looking pretty good and a Cam lynch would ruin that for me, would I be happy to go along and do it?

Was I really redirected on night 1?

If you targetted Balcerzak on N1 like everything shows, then on N1, you effectively activated your role on a user that was not Balcerzak.

So that kind of explains the track/watcher report. Also the crumb is more towards the character, Volcanon. I'm god get at me. I'll fullclaim in the morning if needs be.

[NekoRex]

In other words, it was impossible for Sho to get a supposed result on me on N0, because he lost his role during the night.

Could it be because scorri stole the role and got the info instead? It's obvious the cops weren't getting their results when they got thief'd, but scorri is outing the info they would have otherwise have gotten.

For this bus to work, Marth would have to be part of the Other Guys.

Why does Marth have to be a busser Other Guy? He could simply be a Mafia Rolecop?

along with everything else that I pointed out, and I think Xinnidy got it right - scorri received MARTH'S N0 target's alignment, and outed that.

Why would scorri do this instead of outright saying he scanned Mancer? (which is moot because Mancer died N1 and wasn't scannable at that point anyway) This makes no sense. Scorri can't scan the same night he gets the role, and Mancer died N1, so the only obvious explanation here is that Scorri got Sho's result when the role was stolen.

Relying on these messages every info role is mysteriously getting is pointless since we don't know where they're coming from, and there's no proof they're actually connected. Plus the cops were getting messages that were conforming to their own role, ie rolecops getting role messages.

Whatever, I'm just getting a headache with all this spec. I'm going back to relying on the current cop results and then being a doctor, because that's what I've been doing for most of the game anyway.

[Bluedoom]

@eclipse; At first I didn't understand what you meant by Sho getting two messages night 4 but now I think I know what happened with the info we have on Scorri now.

On night 4 both Sho and I got the role booster message- I attribute this to Scorri scanning Xinny( I believe he's the role booster?) Also Sho was able to target two players that night- so I got two messages. HE on the other hand would've got one message which should give him the Other Guys alginment(since I targeted Bal N4) and I couldn't scan two people that night.

@BBM: Well dude I'm a rolecop of course my results can't be the ones driving the lynches since they aren't concrete evidence wrt alignment. And why are you hounding at SB who is cop cleared? If you're gonna spew shit around at least back it up with stuff.

So guys who do I scan? Everyone bar SB and eclipse have claimed so :S.(Tbh I wanna scan one of eclipse/Sho to see if they're the special someone I should target :3)

[Xinnidy]

Could it be because scorri stole the role and got the info instead? It's obvious the cops weren't getting their results when they got thief'd, but scorri is outing the info they would have otherwise have gotten.

I believe I already said it but scorri didn't say anything about getting a result the night she stole Marth's role, and Sho was still vanillized by then.

Why does Marth have to be a busser Other Guy? He could simply be a Mafia Rolecop?

Why would scorri do this instead of outright saying he scanned Mancer? (which is moot because Mancer died N1 and wasn't scannable at that point anyway) This makes no sense. Scorri can't scan the same night he gets the role, and Mancer died N1, so the only obvious explanation here is that Scorri got Sho's result when the role was stolen.

Scorri could have very well be mistaken in regards to the notification she got, especially since she didn't quote or expand on what she received, but just outed that whomever Sho scanned must have been from the Other Guys allignment.

Now think of this: When they do their actions, both Sho and Marth get their Result indicating player X is allignment/role X. If Scorri got their result the night she steals their role, why wouldn't she have known who they targetted? Why would she have to ask or hint instead of just outright saying "Eclipse is Other Guys"? Because she didn't get Sho's result, that's why.

I'm 100% certain of my theory with regards to that and will keep defending it as much as you're willing to press.

Relying on these messages every info role is mysteriously getting is pointless since we don't know where they're coming from, and there's no proof they're actually connected. Plus the cops were getting messages that were conforming to their own role, ie rolecops getting role messages.

The cops get their side of the scan from the other cop's result, meaning Sho gets allignments of what Marth scans, and Marth gets roles of what Sho scans. And judging from Scorri's actions compared to her infodump, the cops get the opposite of what she did (role of the person she allignment scanned and allignment of the person she role scanned).

And well if my night 4 theory here that was confirmed day 5 by sho scanning Balcerzak and finding out he was indeed from the Other Guys isn't proof enough that we pinpointed these messages to you then ok...

But I still think that's the best way to stop this mindfuck.

So guys who do I scan? Everyone bar SB and eclipse have claimed so :S.(Tbh I wanna scan one of eclipse/Sho to see if they're the special someone I should target :3)

With everything I said on the table, I'd be more comfortable with Sho scanning you to make or break this info role overload suspicion (and since he also has the special thing in his role then if you two are the special targets to each other it would also happen), and you scanning Snike/Rein, to confirm roles and Sho getting their allignments (and see if Snike's allignment is really mafia) according to my assumptions.

[Xinnidy]

Why does Marth have to be a busser Other Guy? He could simply be a Mafia Rolecop?

Uh this was NR's part of the quote I forgot to delete NEVERMIND IT. >_>

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

Marth obviously should be targetting eclipse to check her role because it apparently is something only working unrevealed. Second opinion on the matter would be most delightful

[BBM]

SB, it makes no sense whatsoever for you to be redirected away from Bal, but for you to still show up on a Tracker report as visiting him, unless Elie made a mistake not only with your results, but also with Cam's, and then never bothered to fix them. Bleh.

@Marth- I am backing it up with stuff. Your argument that SB is town is that he was scanned by a Cop. My argument is that what he says happened directly contradicts what we know happened from a confirmed town TrackerWatcher report. Godfathers exist as a counter to Cops. There's nothing that's backing up SB's version of things at the moment other than a small thing from Elie (and are you really going to tell me that that can't be faked after that QT?).

My argument that you're mafia is that there are otherwise too many investigative roles and that you haven't directly contributed to catching scum, whether through regular scumhunting or through your role. And your defence is that as a Rolecop, you can't directly contribute to a lynch (not true because a Rolecop report on Bal before he got vanillized would have been pretty telling, but okay). You've been busy, which is why you haven't been able to contribute in-thread so much, I get that. But I do have things backing me up, so don't just say that I'm spewing shit.

[BBM]

I also think that people are reading way too much into these messages when we still don't know what the hell is up with them.

[charlie_]

BBM, why would a mafia ask to be shot?

[BBM]

Why would a role that is clearly not an Oracle or town Rogue ask to be shot? For that matter, I've seen mafia Rogues somewhere, and it would make sense for the teams to be given some nightkill protection since they have to worry about crossfire, doesn't it? A mafia Rogue targeting someone likely to be town like Sho basically prevents them from dying that night to any town-sided kill.

We'll see based off what you claim, but really, I haven't seen a good explanation for why you showed up as visiting Bal when you said you were redirected.

[charlie_]

I haven't got an explanation for that either BBM. All I know is that I was redirected and I'm town. My claim will make things make sense.

[eclipse]

Cause no other townie ever has lied about their role to try and accomplish something for the greater good. EVER.

'cause Prims usually admits his fuck-ups before they become major (and, uh, why would anyone want to shoot a numbers role?)

Bananas: Did you target me N4?

Could it be because scorri stole the role and got the info instead? It's obvious the cops weren't getting their results when they got thief'd, but scorri is outing the info they would have otherwise have gotten.

Why does Marth have to be a busser Other Guy? He could simply be a Mafia Rolecop?

Why would scorri do this instead of outright saying he scanned Mancer? (which is moot because Mancer died N1 and wasn't scannable at that point anyway) This makes no sense. Scorri can't scan the same night he gets the role, and Mancer died N1, so the only obvious explanation here is that Scorri got Sho's result when the role was stolen.

Relying on these messages every info role is mysteriously getting is pointless since we don't know where they're coming from, and there's no proof they're actually connected. Plus the cops were getting messages that were conforming to their own role, ie rolecops getting role messages.

Whatever, I'm just getting a headache with all this spec. I'm going back to relying on the current cop results and then being a doctor, because that's what I've been doing for most of the game anyway.

Why are you discarding the theory that scorri got Marth's target's alignment? Why or why not? You, uh, kind of pointed at that in there.

I save role spec for "if we have a driver/vig/cult/dumb role that could only be the result of high-level trolling from the host, then (stuff)"; night results fall under a different basket for me. YMMV.

@eclipse; At first I didn't understand what you meant by Sho getting two messages night 4 but now I think I know what happened with the info we have on Scorri now.

On night 4 both Sho and I got the role booster message- I attribute this to Scorri scanning Xinny( I believe he's the role booster?) Also Sho was able to target two players that night- so I got two messages. HE on the other hand would've got one message which should give him the Other Guys alginment(since I targeted Bal N4) and I couldn't scan two people that night.

@BBM: Well dude I'm a rolecop of course my results can't be the ones driving the lynches since they aren't concrete evidence wrt alignment. And why are you hounding at SB who is cop cleared? If you're gonna spew shit around at least back it up with stuff.

So guys who do I scan? Everyone bar SB and eclipse have claimed so :S.(Tbh I wanna scan one of eclipse/Sho to see if they're the special someone I should target :3)

Me pointing out all those messages was to make the point that you/Sho share results.

Sho has the right idea about my role, so my only request is that if you do scan me, don't announce what I am, 'cause then that'll be no fun. Sho should get my alignment, anyway.

[charlie_]

I never targetted you clipsey.