Folgore Rangers Mafia -- GAME OVER

[BBM]

Very quickly before I head to class- JB, some opinions on why people other than the claimed Doc are scummy would be good.

[Elieson]

Eclipse, what's your theory on the lack of nightkill?

Baldrik reread or ISO her. She suggested a BP got hit.

[Elieson]

Also my argument will come later. It's on my computer and I'm moving it out from my ex's bedroom into the living room where I can finally access it

[CT075]

snore

Baldrick (1): Elieson

JBCWK (2): Eclipse, Mancer

Rapier (2): BBM, Baldrick

With 15 players alive, 5 votes are needed to lynch and 10 votes are needed to hammer. You have 2 days and 8.5 hours left in the phase.

[CT075]

fuck you mouse

Edited March 4, 2013 by CT075

[Shin]

JB, why they be voting you, most uncool! In all fairness, even if we kept Sho around he wouldn't have done anything, he'd be barely able to peel an orange by himself. However, you didn't really say that much about him, and a lot of your posts are questioning why people even bothered voting for him. You got some splaining to do!

Rapier, so quiet! Your reasoning on the last minute Sho jump was pretty poor. "I voted Sho because it was da end and I wanted to vote for him but I voted for someone else then there was nobody else to vote for." Your posts have also been pretty bare, I'm not too interested in your morning math class.

I'm sorta puzzled at the lack of a mafia kill, I don't really get this roleblock stuff... plus timezones... and British.

I want to see some scorri in here! So hard to read when you're not even there!

[Shinori]

Frankly I don't think that Rapiers vote swap is what people should be worried about. That late in the phase everyone saw it and it isn't something that would give him townie cred so I don't understand how people would say he did it for town cred. If you are voting Rapier there needs to be more there than you voting him because he swapped at the end of the phase.

WRT Baldricks question towards me. I only found it very coincidental. It didn't seem like anything big but it was weird to me.

##Vote: Rapier

I don't have the problem that JB has with Rapier with the "contradiction". That seems kind of forced to me. My problem with Rapier is that he switched to vote Sho even though Sho was heads above the next lynch candidate to get lynched. I can understand not seeing the point in voting for a secondary scumread if a lot of people were already voting for him, but then deciding to do it later so close to phase end makes me feel he was trying to look good upon Sho's flip.

Well, there are other reasons I can outline after dinner, but the Sho vote from Rapier looked like he was trying to get towncred to me. There wasn't really a reason to switch otherwise.

Eclipse, if you felt that I looked the worst after the Sho flip, why did the mass-hook suddenly change that? I can't see any reason for why that would make me look better. If instead it was because other people looked worse after the mass-hook, how exactly did JB jump to the top of that list?

In addition to what Baldrick said, he went from townvibes on Mancer to calling him scummy the next day and suggesting to lynch him even though he was the Doctor, which was pretty weird.

I also had a scumread on Baldrick from Sho-interactions in addition to the stuff I had on him D1. Baldrick talked about Sho very obliquely- he mentioned him in relation to how other people saw him, but never really said much directly about Sho. When analyzing Elie's posts, he said he agreed with the Sho case, and then later he said that Sho's bad play was bleeding obvious, but never really pushed him directly very much. I'm aware that similar to him, I did choose to vote other people over Sho because Sho had a lot of votes already, but I had pushed Sho early on.

However, after Baldrick's case on Rapier, I'm not really that sure because it doesn't look like bussing to me, and I also think Rapier is scummy. I'll read them both again later as to whom I find worse, but I'll stick with the Rapier vote for now, because Rapier's reaction to two votes on him was to not defend himself or even acknowledge them at all.

This isn't explaining and outlining the other reasons why you voted Rapier. I would like to see your full case if you have one. Because you said you have a scumread on Baldrick who is also voting rapier which makes unsure about it, but you would stick with it because rapier chose not to acknowledge your votes. Which frankly I don't see much of an issue with, considering he said he was going to sleep. If you are gonna vote Rapier explain why he's scum. Because right now it seems that you actually think Baldrick is more likely to flip scum, yet you are choosing to vote Rapier.

##Vote: BBM

[BBM]

In addition to what Baldrick said, he went from townvibes on Mancer to calling him scummy the next day and suggesting to lynch him even though he was the Doctor, which was pretty weird.

I gave my reasons here. I didn't see a reason to repost the reasons that Baldrick had given, but here they are:

Fair enough. I presume the reason behind it is because Cam is not Boron.

Looking at Rapier, I don't like what I see. He thought Mancer was town, but talked about the value of lynching him? You’re surely not that desperate for reads. We shouldn’t aim for any mislynches whatsoever.

In response to Xinnidy here he says he has reasons against Mancer, Lucina and Sho. This seems like a thin excuse to me, since he didn’t actually have an argument for them being scum. He just said Mancer’s posting habits weren’t helping, and that Lucina had disappeared and needed a prod.

##Vote: Rapier

His votes and scumhunting have been weak, IMO. In his first post he voted Lucy basically for inactivity, and in that same post he said that Sho was the only scumread he had. Yet he chose to just prod Lucy, which doesn't make sense even if he thought Sho had enough votes on him. His next content post was focused mainly on why Mancer was bad, except then at the end he acknowledged that we shouldn't lynch the Doc claim, which basically renders that entire part useless. Then at the end he just votes Sho, which as I said earlier I didn't like because it read like bussing. The next post he has a weak prod against Baldrick, and then he defends against Xinny's point that he hasn't given many opinions. He says that he gave some reasons about other people. Except he didn't even find Mancer scummy in his first post, and in the second he'd acknowledged him as the Doc, so there wasn't even a point to that bit. His Lucy vote was just an inactivity prod, and in his own words, he didn't even find her scummy. So really it's just back to the Sho vote that looks like a bus to me.

[Baldrick]

She suggested a BP got hit.

If that's correct, does that mean she thinks the doc was bulletproof?

Also, I notice Shin came in, didn't really commit to either side of the JB wagon, echoed others' thoughts on Rapier, prodded scorri, and left without voting. Not exactly a captain's innings there!

[Jaybee]

However, you didn't really say that much about him, and a lot of your posts are questioning why people even bothered voting for him. You got some splaining to do!

Rapier, so quiet! Your reasoning on the last minute Sho jump was pretty poor. "I voted Sho because it was da end and I wanted to vote for him but I voted for someone else then there was nobody else to vote for." Your posts have also been pretty bare, I'm not too interested in your morning math class.

"jb is wrong in saying that people should not have voted for sho even though he had so many votes already"

"sho has so many votes already rapier, that's poor reasoning for voting him"

ok

[Darros]

That awkward moment when you're typing and then...

yeah my computer is satan in technological form

I'm smart for saving a backup on notepad though

Also my argument will come later. It's on my computer and I'm moving it out from my ex's bedroom into the living room where I can finally access it

I actually have ALL THE HYPE for this. I really want to know what Eli has to say.

Rapier, so quiet! Your posts have also been pretty bare, I'm not too interested in your morning math class.

um

didnt you do this

like all of day 1

when I say this I mean post like next to nothing of substance by the way

up until like this post anyway

I know timezones and all that jazz get annoying but you cant really have a double standard like that

I'm sorta puzzled at the lack of a mafia kill, I don't really get this roleblock stuff...

The hypothesis is that somebody ((I'm thinking maybe a mafia member)) was all like "hey imma roleblock everyone up in herr, biznatch" and then every single action got blocked and everyone just had a really bad time.

plus timezones... and British.

NOT THIS EXCUSE AGAIN

I want to see some scorri in here! So hard to read when you're not even there!

I've seen scorri post once today about Sho's intentions from yesterday, but I also would like to see her post again. I want to know what she thinks we should do today.

I would kind of like to hear from some others who've been quiet too. Namely darloing Lucina and SB who have yet to make a post this phase.

Personally, I'm waiting for Eli to expound on Baldrick before I do anything in regards to votes.

I was acting weird yesterday because of a lack of time on my side and I was all over the place while trying to give my reads in bite-sized bits.

You sure posted a lot for saying you had a lack of time. But I guess I understand the latter part of your statement. Saying you were all over the place is certainly true.

So uh, here I am, tired, still waiting for Eli. /yawns and plays Hips Don't Lie yet again

I've listened to that video like 4 times while typing this. And my sisters coughing I guess.

[Shinori]

Uh, Shin's posts remind me of Trainwreck.

TIME TO ISO.

[Darros]

Want to inform me on the Trainwreck Meta? ((I'm assuming that's what you're referencing to))

[Shin]

There's not too much to say about Rapier in all honesty, I was sorta hoping he'd answer something said directly to him but no dice yet. I think it's too early to park a vote on him, he's said a few silly things but it's really not conclusive... so not groovy! He was reluctant to vote Sho but did so in the end, probably in an attempt to not look scummy. It's an odd move, but it doesn't really say anything about which side he's on. He said Mancer's case on BBM was solid, but hasn't touched on that since swapping to Sho, but his lack of activity means we can't say anything just yet.

I am the coolest captain around, don't be saying otherwise! Everyone else has been pretty quiet so far, jumping on Rapier due to everyone else's inactivity might go badly. Although it's not to say that Rapier doesn't draw attention, we just need to be careful.

[Elieson]

Ok I'm here if you see me posting it's because I'm posting

[Elieson]

Alrighty, here's the scoop.

Suspicion Case 1 (Early Game Top-Tier):

After being 2nd on the snake list after Baldrick, I started wondering what the deal was with the choice of words he used in his first posts.

Not particularly serious, my objection was mostly due to my PR. I have no evidence to suggest she's being untruthful, but I wanted to make sure she wasn't going to use the miller claim as an excuse to coast.

##Unvote

I wouldn't say it did nothing. It gave us a idea of what scorri's thinking. The purpose of RVS is not to build wagons to appear productive, it's to spark discussion to allow scumhunting to be less of a crapshoot.

In response to BBM, et al, effectively claiming his 2nd vote (a jump from an RVS to a millerclaim) was completely unserious.

Ok, why do that? Instant Miller vote because it wasn't particularily serious. But then I compared these quotes.

Not particularly serious, my objection was mostly due to my PR. I have no evidence to suggest she's being untruthful, but I wanted to make sure she wasn't going to use the miller claim as an excuse to coast.

##Unvote

The better part of the last page was caused by your reaction to my vote, was it not?

Anyway, your original reasoning for voting me was based on misinformation, so you're probably going to need a good reason as to why you didn't like my vote if you expect to maintain it. If I think I see somebody planning something, should I not call them out on it because they have carried it out yet?

I don't really like this combination of posts (especially the underlined parts), because with absolutely nothing of value said by scorri in between these posts, he jumps from "Oh she might be doing something naughty" to "that dastard, I'm calling it out before she bring her evil ways upon us all".

Suspicion Case 2 (Early-Midgame Mid-tier):

Remarkable! I had always thought Rapier was an under legend, a bogeyman invented by parents in order to make their children eat their vegetables! As if growing up to be big and strong like me wasn't incentive enough!

Elieson's PR is nice, but it's obscuring the fact he talked about the miller claim a lot, albeit not as much as Sho, (not complaining about that; he's made steady progress, and may actually scumhunt some day) and he's been talking a lot about scorri in general. What is opinion about the rest of the game? And it's been laid on thick, making it difficult to read him and see what he's actually trying to you. Translations like before would be useful.

##Vote: Elieson

More will be coming eventually, but I'm going to be ninja'd to high heaven if I don't post soon.

Still here, I'm not quite sure exactly where I was bringing up conversation on the Miller claim (when it was pretty obvious that my posts regarding it were to shut Xinnidy and Sho up from jabbering on about a claim that offers near-minimal early-game scumhunting.

Suspicion Case 3 (Midgame Awesome-tier):

^ This segues nicely into the ISO.

RVS

Case against BBM. He had some good points, and saved me the bother of countering it myself. So why did he change his tune based on BBM's reply? It was just a reiteration of his argument that you shouldn't vote for someone if you anticipate them doing something scummy, and a clarification of his point about scorri being unlikely to react, rather than not reacting (She did react, first in a suss way, then much better after I put the pressure on). He still thought BBM was voting for the former reason and didn't like it, so that can't be the trigger. If his push on BBM was a reaction test, then we don't know if he actually thought BBM was scummy.

Case against Xinnidy. Why do you keep discussing the miller claim? Oh you're trying to stamp out that discussion. Unvote. The point about her being uppity doesn't count because she was being misinterpreted.

Case against Sho. No objectives to that one or how he's gone about it, but it's hardly a great insight with the way he's been playing.

I'm aware I don't have any other scumreads this game, but that does not detract from my argument.

--

I would like to call out Lucina for her reason for voting BBM having a simple explanation, and a bit of a simplification of his point, but something that's none of my business happened and we should give her some time?

JB's vote for Mancer wasn't that great. The reasoning consisted on Mancer's vote being a rehash (it wasn't, really) and putting BBM at L-1 (which it didn't).

Yes, it took me nearly four hours to get this much down. For the record, most of that time was spent away from the computer. I see a lot of posts there, that I'll address when I'm back home.

Boy if I had a nickel. CONSIDERING THAT WE HAVE A DEAD SCUM TO COMPARE EARLY REACTIONS TO, Baldrick effectively commented on a case against Sho that never even existed according to his ISO. Why would you just up and say that your Case on Sho is well, not worth concern, when he's already entering the center of attention? (Enter the Soft-Defense that I mentioned earlier).

Also WRT the Italicized part. The post that you voted me in WAS A POST WHERE I MENTIONED THE EXACT SAME THING THAT YOU JUST SAID HERE, yet you keep your extremely low-tier vote on me. Bad drafting choice. Your feet should get driven over for this.

No PR for you. Work is hard.

I suppose neither Elieson nor I think much of the other's reasoning behind their votes. But both he and Shinori (And Xinnidy too) think I should have stuck my vote on Sho when I have nothing on him that hasn't been gone over repeatedly. How would a sheepy vote like that help?

That view on BBM helps me. Are the responses strong as in they suggest he's town, or have sound logic behind them?

Out of the later ones on Mancer's wagon, Lucina looks the worst. Her point was basically that Mancer hops on wagons a lot, but she's been doing that as well (4th on BBM, 5th on Mancer).

Kay's method of scumhunting feels more to me like she's giving advice rather than pointing out inconsistencies.

SB: why so melodramatic? It's not like the doctor's dead. Scum tend to howl the loudest when something bad happens, so nobody can say they weren't upset by it.

I swear I'll look at ISOs and stop making half-cases and start making proper replies soon. I also want to think about Elie some more.

There's a difference between sheeping and voting for a scummy unit. You went out of your way to defend your lack of a vote on (a now confirmed scum) Sho, which is weird considering there were pretty open cases on him. You have yet to defend the player himself though, and you especially have yet to argue the cases that were being brought up against Sho, and just you're covering your own tracks by saying "I didn't find him scummy so I didn't vote for him because I don't want to look bad".

If that's correct, does that mean she thinks the doc was bulletproof?

Sorry, I'm not on my usual computer; ergo, I will miss stuff if it's posted within, say, five minutes after I hit Post. Second, I don't think it's prudent to completely rule out a mass mafia roleblock. Perhaps they shot someone like a theoretical BP.

what makes you think that it was the doc who had an attempt on his life last night?

[Shinori]

I think Shin is very likely to be scum at the moment actually. Looking at his ISO i get the feeling of Trainwreck all over again. He's also obviously not caring about his vote. His vote sat on MANCER, our claimed doctor the ENTIRE day. At the time of his post where he voted Mancer he didn't even sate any reasonings for it. He just kinda voted. Then so far his entire day 2 he hasn't voted once at all yet, of course there is actually a lot of people who haven't dropped a vote yet. There is also a fair amount of people that haven't even come in here to communicate, which is annoying.

Mancer, regardless of whether your claim is true, you've gotten pretty desperate. You've been pretty scummy, with your sheeping and that little spat you had with Sho. Sho, it doesn't really matter if he's scum or not, he's pretty useless either way. He made no contribution when he was around and then vanishes after shouting nonsense. Other than the "talk-myself-to-my-demise" BBM, I can't see many other leads... I can't really tell much from Baldrick or Eli at this stage and half the game is missing.

I really dislike the bolded part. Especially since he seemed to still be pushing our claimed doctor at the time and he still left his vote on Mancer instead of moving it to anyone else.

It seems that in the majority of his posts he isn't really scum hunting.

JB, why they be voting you, most uncool! In all fairness, even if we kept Sho around he wouldn't have done anything, he'd be barely able to peel an orange by himself. However, you didn't really say that much about him, and a lot of your posts are questioning why people even bothered voting for him. You got some splaining to do!

Rapier, so quiet! Your reasoning on the last minute Sho jump was pretty poor. "I voted Sho because it was da end and I wanted to vote for him but I voted for someone else then there was nobody else to vote for." Your posts have also been pretty bare, I'm not too interested in your morning math class.

I'm sorta puzzled at the lack of a mafia kill, I don't really get this roleblock stuff... plus timezones... and British.

I want to see some scorri in here! So hard to read when you're not even there!

The two bolded parts above confuse me. At first it seems that he wondering why people are voting JB, which implies a townie read, then he comments saying that JB has some "splaining" to do, which doesn't really imply a town read.

The part WRT Rapier is also weak. He stats that rapier hasn't done much and his vote swap was bad, but doesn't really do much besides that.

Then random stuff about the mafia kill and telling Scorri to get in here and post. Not helpful really at all in my opinion.

There's not too much to say about Rapier in all honesty, I was sorta hoping he'd answer something said directly to him but no dice yet. I think it's too early to park a vote on him, he's said a few silly things but it's really not conclusive... so not groovy! He was reluctant to vote Sho but did so in the end, probably in an attempt to not look scummy. It's an odd move, but it doesn't really say anything about which side he's on. He said Mancer's case on BBM was solid, but hasn't touched on that since swapping to Sho, but his lack of activity means we can't say anything just yet.

I am the coolest captain around, don't be saying otherwise! Everyone else has been pretty quiet so far, jumping on Rapier due to everyone else's inactivity might go badly. Although it's not to say that Rapier doesn't draw attention, we just need to be careful.

Now in his last post he seemed like he was trying to say rapier was scummy, then in this post he says that there isn't much to say about him. He then even says he wished rapier would answer something that was focused at him, yet Shin himself didn't state anything AT RAPIER. Which I find stupid. You didn't ask him anything specifically and you have even stated that there isn't too much to say about him. So what do you expect him to fully respond to? Bolded part is important. And you keep mentioning his inactivity when you are just as inactive if not less active. Not to mention that you really don't have any real thoughts.

##Unvote:

##Vote: Shin

Ugh my thoughts were kind of all over the place and I am having issues actually explaining what's in my head.

TL;DR: Shin voted mancer with what looks like an RVS vote day one. Doesn't move it ever. Reluctant to vote day 2 so far. Only really posted his thoughts about: Sho(Crap thoughts look at his ISO it doesn't help anything), JB, and Rapier.

Is very reluctant to vote Rapier, feels like scum trying to slightly buddy up to what he knows as a townie for townie cred if rapier was lynched. Also looking at his various thoughts on JB they seem awkward. He seems to partially defend JB and hand off points that would make JB town but also questions him as if he isn't trying to look like he's buddying.

Fuck my head hurts and i know this post may raise some questions because I might be explaining this weird so ask questions and I'll answer them.

[eclipse]

The hosts decided to trash my old PR (which was terrible) and replace it with something better. I feel like I just beat those stupid Lynxes of Fire using nothing but my fourth-string Medic team's melee attacks. In other words, I'll see if I can shove it in my posts, somehow (probably not this one, though).

I think Elieson's case against Baldrick is a bit more solid than Shinori's attempt on Shin (which I'll get to in a bit), but it's still not that strong. Much of the case revolves around Sho's flip, and it seems to forget the fundamental flaw that a townie may inadvertently end up defending a mafia member. Furthermore, I'm not a fan of nitpicking over wording; that's like trying to argue that Fortify is better than Reserve. I still think the strongest case against him is his sudden flip to Rapier. Him mentioning a BP doc is also weird, but this feels more like flailing than anything (in other words, null for now, but going into my notes).

The vibe I get from Shin is "not paying attention", which is null ATM. That case makes it sound like Rapier has to be town (which already makes it fail for me, as super-town isn't my read of Rapier), while not giving any sort of good read on JB. Also, Rapier does have stuff to respond to; Shin himself doesn't have to be the one asking questions for that to be valid. I agree the refusal to move his vote on Mancer is odd, and that's probably the strongest thing to go off of (but that's not really worth voting at this stage, IMO).

JB STOP IGNORING YOUR MOM.

[Shinori]

Rapier hasn't really been here i don't think except for when he said he was going to bed last night. And if you are going to sleep generally you aren't gonna make a large post thats gonna require a follow-up conversation. That's my general thought process, I assume Rapier would answer that stuff when he get's back.

I just don't like that Shin isn't asking any questions or scum hunting but expects EVERYONE ELSE to respond and ask questions. As if he doesn't want to do any actual work to help us.

[scorri]

Ok, so I'm trying to read stuff now, but I got some pretty rough news yesterday so I may end up subbing out (sorry hosts >_<). The one thing that's been sticking out to me today though is the idea of a mass roleblock and it being a mafia one. Now, if mafia had a mass roleblock and they knew that it would prevent all actions except theirs (and presumably their kill as well) which seems to be the theory floating around right now, why in the world is Mancer not dead? Unless Mancer was a BP doc who got hit (in which case he should have claimed this right away), mafia should have no reason to not shoot him since everything that might cause that to end poorly for them would be blocked. So. Why isn't Mancer dead?

[eclipse]

Rapier hasn't really been here i don't think except for when he said he was going to bed last night. And if you are going to sleep generally you aren't gonna make a large post thats gonna require a follow-up conversation. That's my general thought process, I assume Rapier would answer that stuff when he get's back.

I just don't like that Shin isn't asking any questions or scum hunting but expects EVERYONE ELSE to respond and ask questions. As if he doesn't want to do any actual work to help us.

Fair enough.

Ok, so I'm trying to read stuff now, but I got some pretty rough news yesterday so I may end up subbing out (sorry hosts >_<). The one thing that's been sticking out to me today though is the idea of a mass roleblock and it being a mafia one. Now, if mafia had a mass roleblock and they knew that it would prevent all actions except theirs (and presumably their kill as well) which seems to be the theory floating around right now, why in the world is Mancer not dead? Unless Mancer was a BP doc who got hit (in which case he should have claimed this right away), mafia should have no reason to not shoot him since everything that might cause that to end poorly for them would be blocked. So. Why isn't Mancer dead?

Why are you trying to WIFOM the mafia?

(and I dunno what's happening IRL, but if you wanna chat/rant, you know where to find me!)

[scorri]

Look, all I'm saying is that something just doesn't add up to me here. I'm looking at a claimed doctor and an apparently mafia sided mass roleblock and the doctor is still alive. Add into that the fact that no one has claimed shot, and something just isn't quite right.

[eclipse]

Look, all I'm saying is that something just doesn't add up to me here. I'm looking at a claimed doctor and an apparently mafia sided mass roleblock and the doctor is still alive. Add into that the fact that no one has claimed shot, and something just isn't quite right.

We don't really have a lot of info to go off of (the nature of the mass hook isn't conclusive), so trying to cast suspicion on Mancer because you think he should've died doesn't make sense. The entire game hasn't posted, so it's possible that there was a hit BP. Either way, Mancer being alive isn't something that's high on my list of things that make me wanna vote someone.

[Jaybee]

I did make a small comment about said elephant, and then I left it at that because everybody else was piling on him and Sho didn't come back online anyway. I don't see the point of throwing my vote onto a wagon that already includes half the game when I could be spending my time and vote doing something else.

MOM DID YOU NOT READ THIS

also committing academic suicide, be back in 7 hours if i don't ask for a sub

[Jaybee]

would not mind BPV claiming to put this entire mass block business to rest