FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[Galenforcer]

Just a question...Why is Sumia higher than Cordelia? Sure she joins before her, but isn't she a whole lot worse than her statistically? Just my opinion, I'd just like to see some arguments.

I find them pretty even. Sumia can build supports faster for joining earlier, but Cordelia has Mercenary and slightly higher stats. They're both good to have.

[OrangeCrush980]

The two may not actually be all that different statistically since the stats we have may not be all that accurate. MU with Tactician and HP/lck ass/flaw was getting +2 HP on level-ups despite the fact the site says 95% chance for a boost. So, some things are wrong.

It's possible that Awakening has Shadow Dragon's dynamic growths where a unit's growth in a stat temporarily increases each time it fails to grow.

[Titamon]

Wasn't that dynamic growth thing a hoax?

[Lord Raven]

It was a hoax indeed, April fools

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Just asking, would Sumia does any better if she reclassed into Knight and goes into Great Knight(or Falco > GK?)

[MercuryHg34]

I don't think so, with Fred she's durable as it is and going GK would ruin her speed. It's not worth it just to get Def +2 off the bat and Luna much later.

[aku chi]

Sully > Panne?

Interceptor's playlog suggests that my level estimates for Sully were, if anything, too conservative. Interceptor had a level 14 Sully after Paralogue 3 and a level 16 Sully after Chapter 8. Grandjackal, meanwhile, has a level 9 Panne after Paralogue 3, but a level 10 Panne entering C8 seems possible.

Edited April 3, 2013 by aku chi

[grandjackal]

Sully > Panne?

Interceptor's playlog suggests that my level estimates for Sully were, if anything, too conservative. Interceptor had a level 14 Sully after Paralogue 3 and a level 16 Sully after Chapter 8. Grandjackal, meanwhile, has a level 9 Panne after Paralogue 3, but a level 10 Panne entering C8 seems possible.

Wouldn't say impossible, just depending on different tactics. Note that in Paralogue 3, I could have had Panne kill an Archer and then eat up all the exp there by herself, then the +1 Move would have actually been helpful in chapter 8. I also wouldn't be feeding Vaike's dumb ass.

Speaking of which, lemme check the list here...

Vaike needs to drop under Kellam. Vaike's 1 chapter grants almost nothing (Virion with Sully works just as well. Actually might work better, because in the chapter after they have a Csupport so that Sully can have +3 Def while having similar Str. She isn't a hulksmash so the +1 Str Vaike gives means dick, while the +1 Def is appreciated). Meanwhile, Kellam also supplies +3 Str while suppling a nice fat +5 Def, which is superb for any unit that has great offense but is in need of durability, like Lonqu or Cordelia.

Vaike's just another unit that needs to get to level 10 and class change, difference being he sucks all the way there, and then is outclassed by a guy who shows up that very moment (Gregor). I don't forsee Vaike ever really growing into his own outside of something silly like stacking critskills to be a critbot, which requires the attention of aura people like Dark Mages and Solidarity to be near him at all times. Even if Kellam isn't an offensive monster, his support is just undeniably better and more useful to much better units.

Edited April 3, 2013 by grandjackal

[Interceptor]

Sully > Panne?

Interceptor's playlog suggests that my level estimates for Sully were, if anything, too conservative. Interceptor had a level 14 Sully after Paralogue 3 and a level 16 Sully after Chapter 8. Grandjackal, meanwhile, has a level 9 Panne after Paralogue 3, but a level 10 Panne entering C8 seems possible.

Hard to disagree with the argument at this point. It remains to been seen what happens as midgame approaches, but Sully has greatly exceeded all of my expectations for her. She is legit better than Frederick at this juncture (Ch8, I could instantly promote her right now and she'd whip Fred in everything but Axe rank). I don't see how Panne could possibly surpass her, honestly; Sully is my second best non-flier without a doubt. I can't give her credit for great contributions over all of the seven chapters that she's available over Panne, but she was a solid contributor (as opposed to a unit in training) from Paralogue 1 onwards.

[grandjackal]

Yeah, I'd agree with the notion, just wanted to point out that 10 by the end of chapter 8 wasn't impossible as stated. Just my results were due to...An unfortunate slacker.

[Da Bear]

Why is Panne above Chrom?

[PKL]

I've gotten Panne to 10 by the end of Chapter 8.

[shadykid]

Why is Panne above Chrom?

....yeah, pretty sure she's going to drop soon

either that, or Sully is shooting up

Edited April 4, 2013 by shadykid

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Why is Panne above Chrom?

After level 10, WK Panne loses in Weapon Rank advantage, Falchion for Wyvern maybe and wins in almost every stats that matterAlso Flier, Beast, and Draco Weakness, but those weakness rarely matters

IIRC at like level 7 WK, Panne wins in stats in comparison to Promoted level 2 Chrom.Also Panne can fly, which is pretty amazing in some chapters(maybe 10, 9, 13, quite a lot of late game)

<div><br></div><div>Well, maybe like that...</div>

Edited April 4, 2013 by JSND

[Redwall]

With the recent discussion of Sully vs. Panne favoring the former, anyone else in favor of moving Panne back down below Frederick?

I wonder if putting Panne above Fred was the right thing to do. While Panne is obviously amazing late in the game, my sense is that her offensive contributions can be replicated to a large extent by solid fliers like Sully and Cordelia. In contrast, Fred's earlygame is great and can't be replicated without spending more turns during early chapters. The only two superunits early on are Fred and Avatar, and both are invaluable during the early chapters, the former because he shaves lots of turns early on, and the latter because he/she shaves turns throughout the game. Neither Sully nor Panne are so dominant at any point in the game (though Panne might come close later on) so as to occupy the niche role that Fred plays.

[Interceptor]

Is there anyone who disagrees with Sully > Panne?

I think it's clear that aku chi's comparison suggests that Sully is the better unit, particularly since (in retrospect) he sandbagged her pretty hard. The level estimates turned out to be conservative, the support times were off in the case of Chrom, and Sully ate a Second Seal for Wyvern Rider that she arguably didn't even need to use in the first place (since Cavalier is actually pretty good). I know that this last bit was largely for the purpose of a clean comparison, but opportunity cost is a thing, and if Sully doesn't actually need the Second Seal to contribute, that's a positive.

[Florete]

Agreed on Sully > Panne. Sully is so good she kills enemies twice.

[PKL]

My Sullies never seem to get stats so I find it very hard to agree with even with evidence >_>

[Ema Skye]

Yeah, I can see Sully > Panne, though I hope that means Panne falls rather than Sully rises.

[Reiska]

I'd say the evidence is reasonably convincing in Sully's favor here, yes. It's certainly possible to get a bad Sully, that said, but it's just as possible to get a bad Panne and we're ultimately dealing with averages here I think.

Speaking of which: Nowi feels a little bit (not severely) high to me. She's got a very serious speed problem that never really goes away and very poor base HP inhibits her ability to tank hits effectively early on (even with a Gregor pairup, the axemen in her join chapter 2HKO her). This doesn't mean much in chapter 8, since using her there has no opportunity cost; however, deploying her beyond chapter 8 does. In chapter 9, she doesn't tank physical notably (if at all) better than Kellam that I can see; she does have an edge on tanking mages, but there's only three mage enemies in chapter 9 (not counting Tharja) and two of them are deeper in the stage than Libra, who tanks them equally well. She needs a speed pairup to patch her speed issues, but giving her one either takes that pairup away from someone higher on the list or takes an outright better combat unit out of combat.

It pains me to say it really, since I like using Nowi and she turns out well when raised, _but_ I'm having a little difficulty seeing how she lives up to the hype while maintaining a brisk pace. Something tells me she probably more properly belongs under scrub!Lucina at either the bottom of B tier or the very top of C tier - she has better long term potential than Kellam in a similar role, so above him seems right, and she has better availability than Tiki (who otherwise largely performs better on average), so above her seems right as well.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Sully > Panne it is.

[Blademaster!]

So the conclusion of my poorly explained run with Nowi/Donnel/Tharja (Please remember that I didn't use rescue to speed up clears, with the exception of two chapters : Severa and Tiki:

Morgan Paralogue 5(4 if I forged or used Str tonic on Fred since he couldn't beat the boss by 2

damage)

D - 7 N - 28 T - 4

16 - 5

D - 8 N - 1 (Still Manakete) T - 5

17 - 6

D - 8 N - 9 T - 5

Donnel and Tharja really couldn't do anything this map since the opportunity just never

presented itself... Nowi and Fred pretty much killed everything.

18 - 7

D- 1 Hero N - 17 T - 6

Tharja can Nostank but can't kill anything. Good for chip damage. Nowi only has trouble killing

Swordmasters because she can't double but does kill with Dual attack. Donnel is decent but not

super amazing.

P13 (Yarne) - 7

D - 3 N - 21 - T - 8

Nowi soloed the green army. Everyone else did their best to kill the red army. Gave Donnel the

arms scroll so he could use hand axes. Tharja Nostanked, but again couldn't really kill

anything.

P9 (Cynthia) - 4

D - 3 N - 24 T - 8

Nowi soloed everything up to the boss. Donnel is pretty strong now. Tharja can still just

nostank without killing anything (good for chip).

P17 (Tiki) - 2

D - 4 N - 25 T - 8

Lots of tonics needed on everyone. Had to use Fred, Libra, and Olivia to kill the falco

knights. Turn 2 gave fred a kill with one Griffon rider. Say'ri, Donnel, Chrom, and Lucina took

care of the 3 wyvern lords thanks to falchion and wyrmslayer. Nowi and Deliverer Cynthia took

care of Boss thanks to Cordelia rescue with Tharja pair up. Gregor took and removed tharja for

next turn. Nowi, Beast slayer Cord, elwind tharja, and Gregor kill last griffon. Yeah...

19 - 2

Only got 2 since Nowi got a crit on walmart. Had Tiki/Say'ri take care of keeping the right

hand enemies at bay. Tharja kept the left at bay. Donnel/Yarne, Cord, Fred, and Nowi took care

of the middle.

D - 4 N - 26 T - 9

P15 - 6

Nowi beat the Boss side of the map. Everyone else made their way to Noire and killed stuff

around there.

D - 5 N - 28 T - 9

P16 - 14

...This chapter is god awful. The wall breaking AI is really Random... Just had Nowi blast her

way to the top. Nah was about as durable as Tiki (though she has Sol) and Arguably more durable

than Donnel. Didn't bring Tharja since I'm trying to build supports.

D - 6 N - 1(Reclassed at end back to Manakete, but she's practically capped most stats by now) T - 9

20 - 4

D - 5 N - 7 T - 10

Nowi just charged straight to the boss. Nothing could hurt her at all, even walhart. Probably

could have 3 turned if I paired her with Gregor but I tried to get Chrom some more exp since

he's been pretty RNG screwed this run. Didn't bring Donnel since I wanted to see if I could

reach the chests in time with Gaius but alas no.

21 - 7

Just charged to the boss again. Better placement of Nowi might have saved me a turn.

D - 7 N - 9 T - 10

P10 (Severa) - 7

Just unlocked this last chapter since I paired Cord with Henry... Should have been 8 turns, but

I rescued Severa to save a turn. Didn't use Nowi much and instead used Nah and Tiki to kill

everything. Donnel and Tharja didn't even see any combat...

D - 7 N - 9 T - 10

P11 (Gerome) - 7

Just unlocked at chaper 21. Main reason this chapter took so long was because of the boss being

up in the corner not moving, and I was unsure of enemy reinforcements. Nowi, Nah, and Tiki just

stomped everything. Mangaed to save all the villagers. Didn't bring Thraja.

D - 8 N - 10 T - 10

22 - 3

If Fred could double Aversa could have been 2 (wasn't able to without rally speed. Probably

couldn't anyway) 3 turns allowed me to get all the divine weapons. Tiki, Nah, and Nowi wrecked

everything again... Didn't bring Tharja, and Donnel was kinda useless.

D- 8 N - 12 T - 10

23 - 5

Considering I have 3 invincible units (Tiki, Nowi, Nah[she's kinda slow though]), this took

longer than it should have... Can't believe people can 2 turn this >_<

D - 9 8 N - 13 T - 10

24 - 5

Without the ability to fly or using Rescue, I can't see this chapter going much faster.

D - 9 N - 15 T - 10

25 - 6

Again, this chapter was probably only going faster with flying units/rescue.

D - 9 N - 17 T - 10

Final - 2

I needed more rescue bots to one turn clear I think...

Conclusions:

Tharja:

Since I didn't really do much with Tharja this run, as far as Nostanking went she could die occasionally, but for the most part could just lure in enemies and deal chip damage for some extra kills. I'm unsure about how well she can kill magic units later on. Frankly, Manakete tanking > Nos tanking, since Manakete's are cheaper and just don't take damage/ever have to worry about dying.

Nowi:

Interceptor will probably get better results than me, but frankly, depending on what is considered brisk runs, the only things holding Nowi back are a kinda slow start for what I argue is just two chapters (8/9), the need to give her tonics in early chapters, and the fact that she has 6 mov/can't fly, however this last point can be fixed by giving her a second seal to make her a griffon rider later in the game. By the time you reach chapter 12, she can have an A support with Gregor, and with consistent leveling, she just won't take damage for the rest of the game, and any damage she does take is negligible due to how high her HP is. She'll arguably be the best mage killer in the game due to her high res and lack of wind weakness, and really only has trouble killing Swordmasters, Generals, and Aegis Paladins on rare occasions without proper dual support. The ability to reclass back into Manakete is just slightly less broken than Veteran, as she'll gain a tremendous amount of exp since Manakete is counted as an unpromoted class (as you can see, I reclassed her back into the class twice due to how much exp she can get). I don't think any unit other than Avatar and Tiki can hope to come close to matching her statwise in No grind, just because of how much exp she'll gain, and honestly, if Panne and Avatar Lucina can be considered S tier, I'd argue Nowi can as well, solely because she just can't die and gains so much exp without ever having to worry about any kind of weakness (I only remember encountering one wyrmslayer hero in chp 23, and Nowi only took 7 damage from him in a chapter where nothing else could hurt her).

As a quick sum up of Nowi:

Pros:

-Fast Gregor Support (can reach A by chapter 12)

-Arguably has the second fastest level up speed in the game

-The best mage killer in the game

-Becomes pretty much invincible around chapter 12, definitely becoming invincible by around chapter 18.

-Can reliably kill almost all enemies without dual support attack; only Aegis Paladins, Generals, and Swordmasters give her some trouble

-Always has 1-2 range

Cons:

-Slow start (Really only for two chapters imo and it isn't even hard to train her)

-Needs Tonics for the first few chapters of use

-Might need one of the four second seals before chapter 16 if she reaches level 30

-slightly expensive due to the cost of dragonstones (still cheaper than nostanking)

-6mov/no flying for most of the game

I can honestly see her as S tier material, but at the least she belongs in A. She just can't die. Additionally, I'd argue Tiki could go back up to B, unless the only thing that's keeping her in C is join time, since she's just a slightly less broken version of Nowi, except she has no downtime and a higher speed cap.

Donnel:

As far as making Donnel a Mercenary goes, this is a mistake: Fighter is better since it is more durable and can get hammers and axes with just one arms scroll. Donnel, while indeed helpful at times in late game (mine was a bit RNG screwed in most stats by ~3 points in str and res, 1 in skl and spd but had +3 hp), ultimately has terrible early game, decent midgame, and doesn't really do anything super special in late game when compared to your other units for the most part due to low weapon levels. Apptitude is nice, but it is nothing compared to the rate at which Manakete gain exp, and even after training Donnel so much, Tiki was still vastly superior as far as tanking and killing stuff went IMO. Ultimately, I don't think Donnel will ever become a unit better than Tiki even with training him, though perhaps comparing him to Tiki is unfair. The main reason for this is because Donnel, even with aptitude, still has subpar resistance, and Sol still isn't helping him out all that much.

To sum up Donnel:

Pros:

-Aptitude

-Stronger than most units by lategame

-Can get Sol

Cons:

-Horrific earlygame

-Need of one of the contested second seals (arguably the primary candidate for one of the first two when used though)

-Never really becomes better than Tiki

-Terrible resistance (barely better than most other units) makes him a bit on the more difficult side to tank with when compared to the Manaketes

tl;dr Nowi is broken and should at least be in A, could probably be in S. Can't say much about Tharja atm. Donnel should stay where he is.

Unexpected side notes: Tiki should go back to B unless join time is the only thing keeping her out of it since she's incredible as a unit. Basilo is definitely better than Flavia (rally str/armsscroll+yewfelle) imo.

[Florete]

B-but, even the devs said themselves that Tharja is the perfect combat unit! There's no way she loses!

EDIT: How does Arms Scroll + Yewfelle mean anything for Basilio? Who would do that?

Edited April 5, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire

[Blademaster!]

EDIT: How does Arms Scroll + Yewfelle mean anything for Basilio? Who would do that?

I did, since I was able to, and it let him be able to pretty much ORKO anything, and OHKO any flying unit I came across. Considering I just had that arms scroll for those last few chapters, it was actually pretty well used and I was happy with the results. It's just more reasoning to say why he should be above Flavia.

[Redwall]

With that same Arms Scroll, Flavia can take the Helswath and tank the entire top half of enemies in Ch 24; as a bonus, she doubles everything except the Valkyries, and thus has a decent chance of nailing a Basilio Dual Attack (which is obviously fatal to Wyverns when Basilio has a bow equipped). I've even tried this after removing Sol from Flavia. You can probably do something similar in Ch 23 after having Flavia take the Arms Scroll from Chrom on turn one or two. What I don't like about Yewfelle is that you're not going to have as productive an enemy phase.