Super C9++ - Game over, Town Wins!

[Violet_Rain3]

Strege- Post 100 was made after post 98 on the same page. In that post I outlined who I felt suspicious due to current comments. I realize, that maybe I should have emphazized on that post when I revoted, but I thought it only necessary to post a reworded version of that post on why I was voting Prims. Which was mostly to getting an answer/reaction to make my think about my vote. So the whole reason I didn't go into scum reads is because I already had. The reasoning from my vote Prims post is just a reworded version of the Prims part in post 98.

Long story short, post 98. Scum reads. Right before the post about not sure who to vote.(#100) These four: BBM, Prims, Kay, and Shinori were my scum reads.

(I would put a link and say more but I'm on my phone because I have to go right now.)

[BBM]

I'm making comparisons and whining because the case against me is extremely hypocritical and singles me out for actions over other people for no particular reason, and it's highly frustrating.

Reading Boron's posts, I'm not a fan of them. She calls out the speed of both the Kay and Shin wagons, but never actually attempts to find scum on them, push any particular person who voted for them, or analyze why any of the votes on it might be bad. That makes me think her Kay unvote is just her not wanting to tie herself to the wagon, despite the fact that she's still pushing her. Her points about other people feel weak and her votes feel like parks on people who are generally not very active.

[Shin]

I can understand your frustrations, BBM, don't worry :P. Have a cookie, then just state your case. I do see what you mean about Boron, but again she hasn't done much other than not wanting to wagon. Still, it would be nice to see a little more from you, Boron!

[Rapier]

I accept the torch that has been passed to me. I just hope I'm a good substitute for Clipsey. =P

My vote on Strege was mostly to illicit a response, which didn't get me anything :P. SSG does have the newbie card, so unless she's claiming that she's British and something about timezones, I'd be willing to give her a chance. Still, I'd be cautious when it comes to Kay, I've only ever seen her particularly active when she wants to push for someone.

Paper is giving me town reads, it's pretty fishy to push inactivity wagons, and I like someone looking into the oddity which is Prims.

Problem is, Kay is always like this (inactive) even as town. At least I don't remember any game on which she's active. I must say it's too soon to judge her behavior though, and I'm still leaning toward neutral.

ffs I made the point about Manix because it was a read I had and I wanted to share it. It was my first post of the game and it was still in RVS. If Prims's post can be forgiven for being useless when the game was still in RVS, why can my post not be let go for possibly being irrelevant when it was made earlier?

Yeah, but the whole point of RVS is to bring out reactions from the voted player. This isn't something easily done when you just go and hard defend him when he's got just a few votes right on page 2. Why did you take RVS so seriously? Should've waited until Manix answered their case on him.

Regarding Shin, I also believe we should give him more time to answer the question directed at him. He's got three votes on him already. For an inactive player who only made three posts, I believe voteparking him is counter-productive.

Not sure what to think of Shin. The logic is really weird but I don't really think scum would be like "X is town because <dumb reasons>"

Don't like BBM's post in #111, feels like a "why me" and his post right after seems sort of desperate and out of nowhere.

Currently think SSG is more new than scum.

Scum can also say dumb stuff. Since Shin is a new player... I wouldn't be surprised to see him slip somewhere accidentally. That's a null read, Paper, and seems like you're trying to defend Shin by using a logical fallacy.

I must agree with you about BBM though. It's the second time he says "Why me? Why are you looking at me but not at <player>?". While this is not a strong indicative that he's scum, this behavior bugs me. Also, the way he said his defense post on Manix wasn't serious after he was called for it seems like a scum excuse for me. Definitely not liking his case here.

##Vote: BBM

[Shin]

Uh, Rapier, I think you've misread everything you've commented on. I said that Kay's activity is generally pretty low unless she has to do something. I don't see how I'm considered an inactive player, I've posted roughly as much as half the players :P.

I know it's your first post and you're subbing for someone, but your post is just echoes of what other people have said and pointing out how mafia works.

##Vote: Rapier

You can keep this until you've done some work of your own.

[charlie_]

Okay, that escalated quickly. Still want Kay to get back in here and do something, but it's probably unlikely on account of it being the weekend.

##Unvote

Not happy with Rein really. He hopped on the Kay wagon right after me and Boron did, with this reasoning:

##Vote: Kay. Votes scorri, doesn't explain, talks about Prims in next post. ???

You expected her to explain her RVS vote? How does that work? That just looks like padding out your reasons, rather than looking like you're echoing. The post in general was pretty vague and had to be pushed for more info too, just like Kay's. I'm not really fond of him giving Shin a free pass for just posting noise either, especially when he says he didn't like Shin's last post.

##Vote: Liquid Snake

Not particularly convinced BBM's scum, his frustration feels genuine to me and hard defending Manix that early doesn't really come across as such a scummy move. I felt from his vote on me like he was playing like his usual self, so that's a point too.

I'll try and get back and post some more later, I'm just not really feeling it right now.

[Rapier]

Uh, Rapier, I think you've misread everything you've commented on. I said that Kay's activity is generally pretty low unless she has to do something. I don't see how I'm considered an inactive player, I've posted roughly as much as half the players :P.

I know it's your first post and you're subbing for someone, but your post is just echoes of what other people have said and pointing out how mafia works.

##Vote: Rapier

You can keep this until you've done some work of your own.

Well, you've made 5 significant posts. It's still a few, even if you say you posted roughly as much as half the players. I didn't really call you for it. All I said was that they should have given you more time to answer instead of just voting you, all votes echoing the same reason.

Also, while I do admit that I echoed some players quite a bit because it's natural to be influenced by others' reads and thoughts while playing Mafia (until it becomes SHEEPING), my post was not made solely of echoing. If you read it again, you'll notice I addressed some points using my own logic. My reads and thoughts are also there. Don't over simplify my post like that.

[Rapier]

Also, I'm looking forward Manix's most recent reads from Shin. It's been some time since he voted him for "pressure voting".

Boron also needs a stronger read. Laziness does not a scum make.

[riariadne]

You expected her to explain her RVS vote? How does that work? That just looks like padding out your reasons, rather than looking like you're echoing. The post in general was pretty vague and had to be pushed for more info too, just like Kay's. I'm not really fond of him giving Shin a free pass for just posting noise either, especially when he says he didn't like Shin's last post.

Poor phrasing. I didn't like how Kay voted, and then well after RVS ended and she found Prims suspicious, didn't change her vote or say why she was still voting scorri. Does she actually find scorri scummy? Don't know because she didn't explain anything at all.

I never gave Shin a 'free pass' anywhere. I just think Kat is worse. His useless fluff isn't something I would vote on because it was really minor, but it is not helpful and doesn't need to be said.

As for Manix, I don't like how he reacted to such early votes that don't really matter. BBM's defense fealt overzealous for early RVS votes as well.

More later.

[Sunwoo]

Reading Boron's posts, I'm not a fan of them. She calls out the speed of both the Kay and Shin wagons, but never actually attempts to find scum on them, push any particular person who voted for them, or analyze why any of the votes on it might be bad. That makes me think her Kay unvote is just her not wanting to tie herself to the wagon, despite the fact that she's still pushing her. Her points about other people feel weak and her votes feel like parks on people who are generally not very active.

Fair, I'm not a fan of your posts anyway :P

BBM, what if I didn't find anyone on the wagons particularly scummy yet? What if I didn't like that the people being wagoned had accumulated a significant number of votes in a relatively short amount of time, but I hadn't strong scum reads at the time on them? I can understand people thinking that it's lazy or "trying to get off a wagon" easily, but I wasn't going to push reads I had little confidence in without more stuff to work with.

@Shin (I can't quote multiple people with this new format help): Because you've done so much right? I'm not sure how I haven't done much other than "not wanting to wagon". Care to explain?

@Rapier: Am I the only person who needs a "stronger" scum read? Who are you even talking about anyway?

##Unvote

##Vote: BBM

Honestly, you're the one who's setting off most of my alarm bells at the moment. That "I believe Manix is town" post was really unnecessary because I don't think anyone who was voting him seriously thought he was scum at the time. You saying you got bad vibes from Paper's post also seems like an overreaction. (I thought it was obvious it was a joke, at least.)

Your vote on Shin feels like you're jumping on an easy wagon (and your reasoning was "for previously stated reasons"). It also seems to me like you're trying to make people look worse than they really are.

Really hope Shinori will step up his content when he gets back from work. He's voting Strege, but the post before that he basically stated that he just has a bunch of town reads. Have your thoughts on people changed?

(Also, my Internet had a massive seizure while I was writing this post and I seriously thought I was going to lose everything, so I might disappear a bit until my connection is more stable.)

[Shin]

Boron, it was more that you hadn't posted very much than hadn't done anything :P. Which was what BBM was getting at.

[Strege]

I'm making comparisons and whining because the case against me is extremely hypocritical and singles me out for actions over other people for no particular reason, and it's highly frustrating.

I can sympathize with you here. Still, I'd like to know if you think Prims is scummy right now or not.

I agree that Rapier echoed some analysis, but I'd like to see more justification of Shin's statement "I think you've misread everything you've commented on" in post 130. It discredits the whole post without going into detail, which is pretty bad and possibly scummy. (Also, it always bothers me when someone votes and then says "I'm happy to keep my vote here for a while" or "until <a relatively subjective condition is satisfied>".) Rapier's reads also seem somewhat understated, particularly in his reasons for voting BBM.

@Boron Try using the multiquote function. It's not terrible, but you have to plan your posts a bit since they appear in the order you queued them. Linking the post in a decent alternative, but worse for people like SSG and I who use email updates to keep up with the thread.

Boron mentions that BBM's "for previously stated reasons" is scummy, and I didn't think it was but now I'm slightly confused. BBM, where exactly were they previously stated?

[Sunwoo]

Boron, it was more that you hadn't posted very much than hadn't done anything :P. Which was what BBM was getting at.

Oh really.

From scorri's ISO:

BBM: 14

SB: 4

Shinori: 4

Prims: 18

SSG: 7

Strege: 5

Strider: 4

Paper: 8

Kay: 3

Rapier: 3 (although to be fair he just subbed in)

Sangyul: 16 (10 game-relevant posts)

Cap'n Flint: 6

scorri: 3

Shin: 7

Even when you cut out my 6 filler posts, I still have the third highest number of posts in this game, Shin. The converse of what you had written would be truer. >_>

[Shin]

My apologies, Boron. Would it be possible to get the ISO's in the first post? It appears I'm having trouble counting posts otherwise :P.

Rapier reads my "Kay is usually inactive, we should be careful" as "We should judge Kay now.", responding with it's too early to tell. He then goes on to elaborate on how RVS works and BBM's decisions, repeating what's already been said.

Then it's a wonderful spiele about how I'm new and I should be expected to make mistakes, but in the end doesn't really form any kind of conclusion. The last part is pretty much parroting what has already been said. If anything I've made it sound more complicated than it really was.

[BBM]

Boron, if you don't think that anybody on the wagons is particularly scummy, then why call it out for being fast? If it's not composed of anyone whom you think might be scum, then so what if it's fast?

Shin, that's the first time you've said that you think Prims is odd. Assuming that means slightly suspicious, why are you praising Paperblade for prodding him but not really attempting to do so yourself? And again, if you think that the inactivity wagons are fishy, why aren't you attacking people for it? Your scumreads seam to be unrelated.

SSG- your vote is important. It's normally better to vote someone even if you're not entirely sure they're scum.

This is where I stated my suspicions on Shin.

And holy fuck, I had a read and wanted to state it. Boron, a full third of your posts are RVS spam. How the hell is it scummy for me to have one post where I say someone is a townread, at the beginning of the game? Yes, maybe it was irrelevant, but that doesn't make it scummy. You're also sheeping this case really hard, which is sort of hypocritical considering you're calling me out for jumping on an easy wagon, disregarding the fact that I'd called out Shin before already.

Strege, I'm still a bit suspicious of Prims, but at this point if I voted everyone who had a shit vote on me, I'd be voting like a third of the game.

[Sunwoo]

Boron, if you don't think that anybody on the wagons is particularly scummy, then why call it out for being fast? If it's not composed of anyone whom you think might be scum, then so what if it's fast?

What if I think the person being wagoned is town, or at least don't think that person is scum? Should I not call out the wagon then just because I don't think anyone on it is scum? What if actual scum decide to jump on the wagon later and really push it? What if the wagon never quite dies out because the person being wagoned cannot get suspicion off them the rest of the game? There are quite a few reasons I'd be calling out a fast wagon even if I don't suspect anyone on it of being scum.

This is where I stated my suspicions on Shin.

My issue with Shin vote is that although you stated your problems with his post earlier, you didn't actually vote him until scorri did and Manix restated his reasons for keeping his vote on Shin.

And holy fuck, I had a read and wanted to state it. Boron, a full third of your posts are RVS spam. How the hell is it scummy for me to have one post where I say someone is a townread, at the beginning of the game? Yes, maybe it was irrelevant, but that doesn't make it scummy. You're also sheeping this case really hard, which is sort of hypocritical considering you're calling me out for jumping on an easy wagon, disregarding the fact that I'd called out Shin before already.

Yes, a full third of my posts are RVS spam. This is relevant to anything ... how? Considering I am hardly the only person with RVS spam? I find it "scummy" because it was unnecessary and seemed like a defense of someone who no one seriously wanted to lynch. At the very least it catches my attention.

See above for my problems with your Shin vote. As for me "sheeping" your case "really hard", you can believe what you want but I did have my suspicions on you earlier. I didn't pursue you at first because I wanted to form thoughts on people who I had less of an opinion on, but right now you really are looking the worst to me.

[Strege]

Rapier reads my "Kay is usually inactive, we should be careful" as "We should judge Kay now.", responding with it's too early to tell. He then goes on to elaborate on how RVS works and BBM's decisions, repeating what's already been said.

Then it's a wonderful spiele about how I'm new and I should be expected to make mistakes, but in the end doesn't really form any kind of conclusion. The last part is pretty much parroting what has already been said. If anything I've made it sound more complicated than it really was.

If I remember correctly people have been saying that BBM was scummy because he defended Manix, not because he did so a few posts too early. I actually agree with the latter point more than the former. You're also acting as if the inexperience spiele was about you when it was about Paperblade, which seems kind of scummy to me.

Looking through Boron's stuff a big part of it is pressuring people with low activity and attacking wagons, which could be scummy or not depending on what you think of the legitimacy of the wagons (which probably isn't a very reliable way to read people, come to think of it). The BBM vote seems better now that he's clarified it; I'd like to know what other reads he has though.

@Tables: I'd also like ISOs in the original post, though I can survive without them if it's too much trouble or the links start breaking as they can do.

[Paperblade]

I don't really think Manix is scummy.

Rapier, please look up what a logical fallacy actually is, and then consider that even if you were right, town can use bad logic too (unintentionally).

I think BBM is misrepping Boron a bit because I felt like Boron didn't really want to lynch Kay, she just wanted her to talk more. Also your reaction is weird since it seems like you're mad people are voting you. I could see town doing this (perceived hypocrisy dumb wagon etc.) but this seems out of character for you so I am inclined to think it's scummy.

However, Boron's recent post bothers me a bit. If you think a wagon is townies wagoning townies, why not say that? If you don't say that most people are going to assume you think there are scum on that wagon.

Rein's explanation for his Kay vote is kind of just him repeating his reason

As you might be able to guess, I'm feeling a bit better about Prims (the read on him was kind of "eh could go either way" anyway), although I'm mostly going off a "I don't have a weird gut feeling that he's scum so he's town"

I don't remember the last time Shinori did something since he was super vague and ambiguous

[Shinori]

I'm home now reading up and posting now before I get into any league.

[Shinori]

I don't really think Manix is scummy.

Rapier, please look up what a logical fallacy actually is, and then consider that even if you were right, town can use bad logic too (unintentionally).

I think BBM is misrepping Boron a bit because I felt like Boron didn't really want to lynch Kay, she just wanted her to talk more. Also your reaction is weird since it seems like you're mad people are voting you. I could see town doing this (perceived hypocrisy dumb wagon etc.) but this seems out of character for you so I am inclined to think it's scummy.

However, Boron's recent post bothers me a bit. If you think a wagon is townies wagoning townies, why not say that? If you don't say that most people are going to assume you think there are scum on that wagon.

Rein's explanation for his Kay vote is kind of just him repeating his reason

As you might be able to guess, I'm feeling a bit better about Prims (the read on him was kind of "eh could go either way" anyway), although I'm mostly going off a "I don't have a weird gut feeling that he's scum so he's town"

I don't remember the last time Shinori did something since he was super vague and ambiguous

I stated I wouldn't be around today and because of various irl issues I wasn't around yesterday either. Sorry.

[Paperblade]

o

[Sunwoo]

Looking through Boron's stuff a big part of it is pressuring people with low activity and attacking wagons, which could be scummy or not depending on what you think of the legitimacy of the wagons (which probably isn't a very reliable way to read people, come to think of it). The BBM vote seems better now that he's clarified it; I'd like to know what other reads he has though.

Half of the game hasn't posted enough for me to form an opinion on. I understand that some of these people are busy, but there are others who really haven't given an excuse for being so quiet and whom I HAVE seen active elsewhere, which makes me wonder if it's a strategic silence so they can stay under the radar.

As for the people who have posted enough for me to form an opinion on, I'm mostly leaning not scum on them. Nothing really jumps out at me so far.

However, Boron's recent post bothers me a bit. If you think a wagon is townies wagoning townies, why not say that? If you don't say that most people are going to assume you think there are scum on that wagon.

Yeah, I really should have stated that and I'm not sure why I didn't. :/

[Shinori]

Am I your only read?

These posts.

After further thought I'm gonna ##Unvote and ##Vote: BBM because the Manix defense feels like buddying given that none of the votes on Manix put him at serious risk of lynch.

But yeah I don't really feel strongly about anything. Blitz is weird imo.

Really irk me.

Partially gut but also didn't like this as it seemed to be in response to blitz who he actually states is weird in this post. Really think the reaction from him was bad here and I don't like it.

Also, ##Unvote, ##Vote: Prims

If you have no reads, why did you announce that right before you made what I presume was supposed to be a reaction test on Scorri? What exactly was that supposed to achieve?

Also, I think my internet has been mostly fixed, so my activity should be better now.

Why did you vote him for his reaction test vs his awkward swap or his reactions towards blitz?

##Unvote

Bleh, not what I was hoping for there.

Shinori's #54 looks like him trying to pad out his post a bit more, not really fond of it.

Can't really tell from Stege's #56 what his actual read on Manix is. Seems like kind of scummy but only a little bit, care to elaborate?

Prims calling Blitz "weird" in #65 seems just kind of like trying to avoid giving his read on Blitz.

Kay dropping in and posting a one liner that ignores everything in #69 isn't really good either.The statement was pretty vauge and only expanded on it after Manix asked.

##Vote: Kay

She hasn't done a lot all game. Only one read in a one line post, and then she had to be pressed to expand upon it.

A lot people haven't done a lot all game, why did you choose to vote Kay over me or strege(who I personally think is worse but I might be bias who knows).

Boron, why specifically mention Strege for talking about how Shinori's posts were ambiguous, when other people did the same? Paperblade, for example, echoed Strege in this post.

Probably because Strege was the one who brought up the original argument kind of on me and is the only person voting me? Manix voted me and then swapped after hearing my response, other people have commented on me but haven't chosen to follow it up with a vote.

okay

Not a fan of Shinori either, upon reread. First off, the "post dumb stuff and say later that it was a reaction test" thing is lame. Secondly, I don't really like his Strege vote. Shinori draws parallels between his own "Prims is doing that one thing" ambiguity and Prims's blank vote even though they aren't the same.

IF YOU WANT I CAN BE LIKE EVERYONE ELSE AND JUST NEVER STATE THAT IT'S REACTION TEST. Considering that the MAJORITY of anything done in a mafia game is done to get a reaction so you can get a read based of off that reaction. Most people just choose to not state it.

WRT to the prims point that's not what I was doing at all. I literally said he was doing that one thing again when he wasn't even doing anything. Like literally he hadn't done anything when I posted to be frank. WHAT I DID STATE was that I was confused as to why Strege voted me over Prims when Prims said the same thing I said, like exact same thing basically, yet Strege seemed to COMPLETELY ignore Prims and just focus on voting me. The least he could have done was comment on how Prims did the same thing with his overall thoughts on the subject, but he didn't do that. If he thinks I'm scummy enough to lynch based off of that why did he ignore prims in the beginning?

Sorry for my absence in the last 24 hours. I was away from my laptop most of today and my phone started doing a thing where it resets itself every few minutes, making it almost unusable. I'm hoping to get it fixed sometime tomorrow. In the mean time, my posts might be longer and less frequent than I've been trying to aim toward.

I believe this is a reaction test as Shin later stated since the argument is based on a fairly obvious oversimplification, which makes for effective bait. I think this could go either way in terms of scumminess so unless someone can correct me I'm taking it as null. Shin's other content has been pretty weak though and his most recent post skirts the bigger issues, which makes it all seem scummy rather than read-less town. I'm hoping for some more activity here.

I still think my comment on Shinori is valid. It and the Manix thing aren't strong indicators of scumminess, but they were all I had when I first posted. Shinori seems to have disappeared since then when he's had plenty to comment on -- I'll allow some margin of real life interference, but I'd like to see some more content soon. After another reread or RVS with timestamps in mind I think Manix's apparent defensiveness was justified, and his posts since read null for me.

I didn't (and don't) think that BBM defending Manix is out of character for him since in my experience he tends to attack votes he doesn't see as valid no matter who they're pointed at. Him comparing his activity to Prims' here and (to a lesser extent) here seems like possibly scummy redirection though. BBM, do you think Prims is scummy right now?

Paperblade's activity has been really back and forth for me. Post 60 is a bit scummy in that it doesn't commit to anything or offer reads (which wouldn't be bad if he had more posts that did). Attacking the Kay wagon could go either way, but I'm leaning townie on it just because I'm leaning town on Kay. Her posts seem normal for her and I think the wagon was pretty overblown with that in mind.

Who is Strider, by the way?

TBF your one comment against me is still poor imo since you still completely ignored Prims who did the same thing. Why did you seem biased at that point in time in the game(I don't mean at the current time but back when we originally voted each other)? As I stated above your comment you stated against me could have easily have been said to Prims as well, yet you chose to ignore him completely, why did you chose to do that?

So with my overall quick read. Note: I did skim over pages 6/7. My scum reads are mainly on Strege/prims at the moment cause I'm weird and bad at this game or whatever.

##Vote: Witch

TBF he hasn't done much. RVS + RVS + random swap to BBM that seems like a bad reaction to Blitz and then leaves it sitting there all day. Also the majority of his posts seem to be giving off an "I don't care" vibe that he sometimes gives as scum. I also don't see much real scumhunting coming from him.

[Prims]

My eyes keep glazing over people's posts this game. FTR I still think BBM is scum but am just not writing huge essays about it. BBM, why is Shin a better vote than Boron to you at this point? Based on your recent posts you seem a lot more accusatory toward Boron.

I'd probably go for a Shin lynch too at this point, the post with the empty unvote has a lot of hazy reads in it and the immediate jump on Rapier seems opportunistic, like he was waiting for somebody to slip up before voting instead of reading the thread to hunt scum. I requested he elaborate on who he found scummy but I still can't actually tell aside from the Rapier vote. Also the "xd waffulz" shit is kind of annoying.

Strege's SSG vote is starting to look like a park. SSG has responded to Strege since he made his post, but Strege ignores it and doesn't talk about SSG at all. Strege, why is SSG still the best vote from your PoV?

Rapier, do you think Shin is actually scummy? Boron, do you still think Rein is a good vote?

[BBM]

Boron, the fact that a third of your posts are spam is important because you're saying that my townread, made at the same phase of the game, is scummy, when it's at least more relevant than those posts. I'm not saying that you're scummy because of those posts, just that I'm not scummy because of that post either. As for the Shin thing, that was mostly coincidence. I'd still made my thoughts about him

@Paperblade- I can point you to Trainwreck if you want an example of a game where I got mad at a dumb wagon on me. I'm not getting mad because people are voting me. I'm getting mad because everyone is citing the same reason that I've rebutted like five times already and absolutely nobody is telling me why stating an irrelevant townread in RVS is scummy. Most things in RVS aren't relevant. Stating something that might still be relevant somewhere in the future is still better than just a random vote, no?