PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[Radiant head]

Most of those are good.

Yarne's best build is a Berserker with Hit+20, because Berserkers are ridiculously powerful but have low skill. I noticed you aren't using Virion at all, so you might want to consider him for Yarne's father.

Gerome is in a similar boat, except it's even harder for him to get both Berserker and Hit+20. So Gregor is passable because he at least contributes the former. Some people also give him an archer dad so he can get Hit+20, and instead of Berserker he's a Bowfaire Warrior. FWIW Henry can give both, but he's high in demand.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Radiant head

[Czar_Yoshi]

Has anyone ever tried an Ignis+Astra procstack on Morgan or another child of Robin's? How does it compare to Luna+Ignis and Luna+Astra?

Good question. Let's take a look.

Ignis gives a alt Atk/2 boost, while Luna gives a Def/2 boost, so Ignis will do better when the attacker's alternate Atk stat is higher than the foe's Def. Since only GKs have an alt Atk lower than 30, and LB/Rally/Tonic/Pairup provide a flat 25 boost, it's reasonable to expect an alt Atk of at least 55 (up to 65 on Brides, DFs, GMs, DKs, and Monks, and a little less on Dark Fliers), and even more if a +Str/Mag pairup boost was snagged, so maybe 70 max.

Enemy Def distributions have an average around 50 and rarely go above 60, so a low-powered Ignis is around equal to or slightly better than Luna, and a higher powered Ignis is definitely better. I prefer Ignis myself.

So Ignis/Luna vs Ignis/Astra, then. Let's look at a pair with 90 Atk and 80 Skl on the lead (not unreasonable with a good Morgan and good support), an Ignis boost of 25, and a target enemy with 50 Def. A whiff does 40 damage, Ignis/Luna do 65, and Astra does 100.

Just Ignis: (0.8 * 65) + (0.2 * 40) = 60

Ignis/Luna: (0.96 * 65) + (0.04 * 40) = 64

Ignis/Astra: (0.4 * 100) + (0.6 * 0.8 * 65) + (0.12 * 40) = 76

So there you go, Ignis/Astra is pretty similar to Luna/Astra, maybe slightly better, and a lot better than Ignis/Luna or just Ignis. As a side, the reason Galeboys tend to run a Faire instead of a second proc when available, even though the latter is much stronger, is because procs can't activate on DSes and they spend 2/3rds of their time in the back. While a single 15-point damage increase is roughly the same as three 5-point increases, the latter are more spread out and burst damage usually isn't as helpful. Procstack Galeboys definitely aren't out of the realm of plausibility, but that's why they're not common, despite the increase.

Astra/Luna is sort of weird because Astra is less effective if the enemy has high defense, while Luna directly deals with that issue, so there's some counter intuitive asynergy there.

Well, let's look at what conditions you might see a higher damage from Luna than from Astra. Astra provides a flat 2.5x damage multiplier (a 1.5x increase). Luna just boosts by half of the foe's Def. So for Luna's boost to be superior, the foe needs at least three times as much Def as you're doing damage- the foe's Def must be at least 3/4ths of your Atk.

So how often is this scenario likely to come up? Well, let's look at the main Luna/Astra users: Stahl!Severa, Gaius!Kjelle, Donnel!Kjelle and Gaius!Noire. Severa doesn't have a standard set (in terms of class/support) so she's harder to compute, but the latter three will usually be running LB/GF/Luna/Astra/Faire as a Paladin/Wyvern/BK respectively with Berserker supports. This gives us 97/101/96 Atk, still respectively- so that 3/4ths Def threshold is going to be around 72/75. How many enemies have that much Def? ...Well, none. So there aren't any scenarios where Luna is stronger than Astra, and as a result, adding Astra onto Luna to make a procstack will never lower the average damage output (and on enemies with 20-30 less Def, will increase it by a lot).

So in the end, even if higher Def affects Luna less than it affects Astra, Astra is never weaker so there's never actually any asynergy. And keep in mind that while Luna's boost does get higher the more Def an enemy has, a Luna hit against an enemy with high Def will still do less than the same hit against one with low Def.

SumiaXChrom - Cynthia & Lucina

Good. Use LB/GF/Aether/Luna on both, DSt+ for Lucina and a Faire for Cynthia. Both work well as Snipers or Paladins with Berserker, Bow Knight or Hero supports, or Sage supports in the case of Snipers. Also consider Dark Flier if a Grandmaster (or possibly Dread Fighter) Robin support is available.

LissaXLibra - Owain

Good. Use LB/GF/Agg/TF/Vengeance as a Sage, and support a Sniper or Dark Flier (or Hero Nah).

SullyXDonnel - Kjelle

OK. Use LB/GF/Luna/*Faire and either Astra as a Wyvern Lord with a Berserker/Bow Knight/Hero/Paladin support or All+2 as a Paladin with any support (usually Sniper or Warrior, possibly Sage if there's one that really doesn't fit anywhere).

ChercheXGregor - Gerome

OK. Use LB/Agg/AF/ and two of All+2, Lancebreaker and Axebreaker as a Berserker. Support anyone listed as wanting a Berserker support, possibly with a slight preference for Wyvern Kjelle.

TharjaXGaius - Noire

Good. Use LB/GF/Luna/Astra/BF as a Bow Knight with a Berserker/Hero/Bow Knight support, or as a Sniper with any support (usually Sage or Warrior).

NowiXKellam - Nah

Bad. Use Vaike instead and LB/GF/AF/Luna and either Deliverer or All+2 (Axefaire inheritance required) as a Hero (support any Galeboy, including Sages).

MirielXRicken - Laurent

OK. Use LB/Agg/TF/All+2 and Anathema or Mag+2 as a Sage and support a Sniper or possibly Dark Flier.

PanneXLon'qu - Yarne

OK, but taking Stahl or Virion would be better. Use LB/Agg/*Faire/Hit+20 and either Prescience or All+2 as a Berserker and support anyone who wants a Berserker support (better than Gerome), or Sniper (definitely take All+2, possibly Skl+2 over Hit+20, and support Severa).

OliviaXFrederick - Inigo

OK. Use LB/GF/Agg/*Faire/Luna as a Hero, Paladin or Bow Knight and support a Dark Flier or other Hero/Paladin/Bow Knight, or possibly a Bride.

CordeliaXStahl - Severa

OK, but taking Virion or Lon'qu would be better. Use LB/GF/*Faire/Vengeance/All+2 as a Hero (Lon'qu), Wyvern Lord (both) or Dark Flier (Virion, and replace All+2 with Deliverer, Anathema or possibly AT). Hero wants a Warrior or Sniper (especially Yarne), Wyvern wants a Berserker/Hero/Bow Knight (or Paladin, if using Lon'qu), Dark Flier wants a Sage.

MaribelleXHenry - Brady

OK. Taking whoever of Virion and Lon'qu is left over is also an option- if so, Nah can also work with Henry. Either was, use LB/GF/Agg/TF and one of Luna or Vengeance (Henry only) as a Sage, and support a Sniper or Dark Flier (or Hero Nah).

LucinaXRobin - Morgan

Good. Use LB/GF/TF/Ignis/Aether as a Valkyrie with a Sage support. Owain benefits from this, especially if Brady gets Virion or Lon'qu.

My Unit is male, +Res/-Luk. Being that resistance is Robin's "inherent" flaw, and I have access to Limit Breaker (which makes Luck more irrelevant than it already is), I decided to go with this, as it only results in a major decrease to Luck (irrelevant) and a very minor decrease to Strength, while giving a small boost to magic, a moderate boost to Speed, and a huge boost to Resistance (once again, Robin's inherent weakest stat)

Res is not an inherent flaw. Robin has a slightly lower personal Res growth than Def growth, but growths don't matter when minmaxing- only caps. The Spd and Mag boosts from +Res are the same.

• Please explain reasoning for what you're advising.

These sets are centered around the current meta, which focuses on maximizing offensive presence (Atk and Mov) while hitting Spd thresholds for Secret Apotheosis. Make sure to always use all Tonics on everyone.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi

[Mujuju]

Lissa x Libra does not get Luna, perhaps you meant Vengeance?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Yes, Vengeance for Owain. Good catch.

[Zog58]

I was planning on marrying MU to Lissa and having Morgan be a sage (luna proc) and Owain as a dreadfighter (Ignis and possibly luna proc for Apo). Should I go with +Mag or +Speed, with a flaw of luck? -Def is no good on lunatic, especially since I want Robin to be eating up kills by the end of Ch.1 (Ill reset the prologue if needed for good defense). Robin will likely end as a GM, too, but I can change this.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Best to go +Spd and use Morgan as a Valkyrie (if you're going to use Luna, don't go for it ingame. Ignis is both stronger and safer to get there). If Owain uses a second proc, it should be Astra instead of Luna.

-Def is definitely doable. Use Int and Kuroi's Lunatic+ strats if you're nervous, and since it's vanilla even if you're not grinding you'll be strong enough to stomp once Cht.3 is over with anyway. For most of Plegia Robin relies more on dodgetanking than Deftanking, and once that's through you'll have so many levels that low growths won't matter too much.

[Radiant head]

Having actually done it myself -Luck ends up being kind of bad if you want a Dread Fighter Owain. He's just as physically deficient as Ricken!Owain, but doesn't even have the high mag mod to pull off Tomefaire Dread Fighter as well (since they have a terrible mag cap). The +5 spd is awesome though.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Radiant head

[JediZelda]

Thanks for the detailed breakdown Czar_Yoshi. I've been running Ignis/Luna on Morgan and Severa, and I noticed Ignis rarely activates. It's usually Luna or nothing, I think because the activation chance for both procs are the same, and Luna takes priority. It seems to be a waste of Ignis, which I do happen to like better than Luna when the former is available. I'll try Ignis/Astra for both of them, and see how that goes.

[Radiant head]

Does Tantivy work as hard support in a pair up as long as the pair keeps the distance requirements? Because I'm thinking of switching Virion for Gregor on Gerome if this is a feasible +hit option.

[Shadow Mir]

I was planning on marrying MU to Lissa and having Morgan be a sage (luna proc) and Owain as a dreadfighter (Ignis and possibly luna proc for Apo). Should I go with +Mag or +Speed, with a flaw of luck? -Def is no good on lunatic, especially since I want Robin to be eating up kills by the end of Ch.1 (Ill reset the prologue if needed for good defense). Robin will likely end as a GM, too, but I can change this.

Personally, I'd recommend against a luck flaw, as facing crit chances <<<<<<<<<<<< Not facing them, and I cannot stress this enough. Also, if you pick up Arrmsthrift, a luck flaw is shooting yourself in the foot.

[Radiant head]

Pretty much everyone can reach 50 luck with Limit Breaker. And only Donnel can do it without.

[Shadow Mir]

Pretty much everyone can reach 50 luck with Limit Breaker. And only Donnel can do it without.

It's less that, and more in-game I'm concerned about, especially earlygame.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[Radiant head]

Oh, well I've pretty much never found armsthrift useful in game.

[Zog58]

Sounds good, thank you for the feedback! And just curious, how well would a Ricken!Inigo pair with that Morgan? He could bolster her power with sage, or switch in to take hits as a dark knight while still giving magic and movement.

[Radiant head]

Dark Knight pair up bonuses are kind of underwhelming, but Sage, or most mag x mag pair ups will serve you well. Sniper also goes well with magic pair ups because of no counter, and Ricken!Inigo can do that pretty well.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Radiant head

[Bunselpower]

Does Tantivy work as hard support in a pair up as long as the pair keeps the distance requirements? Because I'm thinking of switching Virion for Gregor on Gerome if this is a feasible +hit option.

I'm actually curious about this too I calculated the hit rate of vaike!gerome to be about 221, which is a good starting point to hit the goons. That was with 3/25 forge. So 10 more would get him a pretty respectable 231, which is only short of perfect on like 5 enemies or something. These are napkin calcs, but still. I assume the point at which you begin running into problems is on challenge runs.

[astrophys]

It's less that, and more in-game I'm concerned about, especially earlygame.

Regard luck and flaws, even in the early game, you get an easy +10 dodge by having 3 units next to you [or pair-up + two next to you] or by having a B-support, or some combination like C-support and one next to you. Crits are almost never an issue in the early game.

[Shadow Mir]

Regard luck and flaws, even in the early game, you get an easy +10 dodge by having 3 units next to you [or pair-up + two next to you] or by having a B-support, or some combination like C-support and one next to you. Crits are almost never an issue in the early game.

The problem with that is that having 3 levels of support isn't very reliable, nor is it practical, before supports start building.. The only real instance where I could reasonably hope to have 3 levels of support is against stationary bosses, which only two of the earlygame bosses are (and the one in the Prologue has Gamble - one of the reasons why I find a Luck flaw to be asking for trouble).

Edited December 8, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[Radiant head]

Well all flaws are asking for trouble in some way. Some people just don't mind the drawbacks from -Luck.

[Shadow Mir]

Well all flaws are asking for trouble in some way. Some people just don't mind the drawbacks from -Luck.

Agreed. At the same time, though, some flaws are more damaging than others; personally, I think being vulnerable to critical hits is one of the worst things to be. For Pete's sake, one of the characters in Fates has a personal skill that makes him, and enemies nearby, more likely to suffer critical hits; no prizes for guessing what I think of said personal skill. What's more, said game actually gave a certain class an innate crit evade penalty; needless to say, my opinion of said class plummeted faster than an unbalanced platform set in Super Mario Bros., etc.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[Radiant head]

I'm actually curious about this too I calculated the hit rate of vaike!gerome to be about 221, which is a good starting point to hit the goons. That was with 3/25 forge. So 10 more would get him a pretty respectable 231, which is only short of perfect on like 5 enemies or something. These are napkin calcs, but still. I assume the point at which you begin running into problems is on challenge runs.

Huh no response, so I guess I'll have to try this myself and let you know.

[Lucina's Husband]

Which exclusive skill should Panne pass down to Stahl! Yarne @Berserker? I was going to go for Deliverer or Strength+2. Yarne will be marrying Chrom! Cynthia @ Sniper. Does it even matter?

Strength +2

Tantivy

Wyvern Lord

Quick Burn

Swordbreaker

Griffon Rider

Deliverer

Lancebreaker

Edited December 9, 2015 by Lucina's Husband

[Radiant head]

Well since you're using him as a sniper/lead unit, might as well get Deliverer. If he's a support unit, then it probably doesn't matter, since he only needs Hit+20. I guess Swordbreaker because of WTA.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Radiant head

[Lucina's Husband]

Oops. I meant berserker.

[Czar_Yoshi]

I guess Swordbreaker because of WTA.

Snipers don't use Axes though.

Hit+20 Yarne doesn't need any of the things exclusive to Panne, so it doesn't really matter. Deliverer for easier training, maybe.

I don't recommend using Sniper x Sniper pairs, though, especially when Sniper x Berserker is available instead. Despite the high DS%, the pair tends to wind up slow and with weak hits both on the front and back.