Fakeclaim Mafia - Game Over

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Hey SB, when did Tables tell you/when did you find out/when have you been online?

[charlie_]

Extension please

I need to sleep

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Extension

[Percivalé]

extension pls

[Zkirsche]

+1 for extension I'm mia sorry being sociable sucks.

[Zkirsche]

Hmmmm actually I don't see the benefit. I'm happy for Manix to be lynched.

Goodnight.

[Refa]

It'll take a while to sift through all of SB's posts, so voting for an extension.

[charlie_]

I founf out my actual role like 20 mins ago and was utterly confused

I thought i was hooker since half way through my first post

[Sunwoo]

BBM try not to be a worse host than I am kthx >_>

Okay, so if we got all the claiming stuff out of the way, I read through SB's content posts. I can see his case on bearclaw, and an initial read isn't making me feel badly about his other stuff (although seriously, dude, Objection was subbed out for kirsche quite a while ago). It's not enough to make me feel better about Manix's previous stuff, though.

I saw Grassbridger's response to me, but I don't agree with his reasonings about eclipse and I think he himself might be exaggerating with regards to her.

Extension, I don't care if we get one or not I'll be fine either way. I'm too tired to read any more of this thread right now.

[Paperblade]

Can BBM confirm if a mistake was made?

[BBM]

No (as in I won't confirm or deny).

An extension has been granted. Phase ends in 24 hours and 20 minutes.

[Paperblade]

ugh

this is stupid

[Percivalé]

paperblade do you still want to lynch elieson

[Paperblade]

Yeah I would be good with an Elieson or Bearclaw lynch

I'm waffling on SB now since he's posting better than Manix

and idk what's going on with his claim, the Hooker I was willing to take as scum based on your CC but vanilla is idk

##unvote

I'll have a new vote down some tonight, probably not soon because I have a test in an hour

[Refa]

Did you miss the part where I switched my vote to Paperblade?

I stated that you were mainly tunneling in on Eclipse. Of course, you had other reads, but the majority of your posts at the time were focusing on Eclipse. It doesn't help that your case on Paperblade was pretty weak, complaining about his lack of reads, even though he doesn't have noticeably less reads than the average player. Since then however, you've posted more reads on other people, so I feel more comfortable about not labeling you "Leaning Scum".

Classifying most of the game as "null" over a few things you disagree or can see or can't understand feels noncommittal.

At the time, there was not enough information to safely put those people into leaning town/scum, even though I was getting town vibes from some (kirsche) and scum vibes from others (Grassbridger).

Last part: Worried about an OMGUS? That's very self-conscious. . .like, scum self-conscious. Between your arguments against me (which doesn't take into account what I see), and that OMGUS bit, I am perfectly content to leave my vote where it is. Unless something extraordinary comes up, I think you're scummy enough to be today's lynch. I also think that your logic for voting Wallcrab could be applied to yourself, especially at the beginning of the game.

I agree that worrying about an OMGUS is overly self concious, however I don't see the scum intent in him posting that on the thread when hypothetical scum!Grassbridger could have just a) kept it to himself or b) used the mafia QT.

I missed this when answering Grass..

Reading games that Bizz has participated in would tell you he's a srong player though, that thought process would mean you like haven't played in or read the games he's participated in (or forgotten them, I think forgetfulness is more likely here).

I don't like this statement, because he's basically parroting what Eclipse said about Bizz being a strong player. In addition, Grassbridger already stated his claim had nothing to do with how strong/weak a player Bizz is.

You kept talking about making sure we got a lynch, and I notice a lot of your posts just seem to be explaining other peoples' arguements.

My stance is we should go for a Day 1 lynch unless there is reasonable doubt that the person is a townie.

I'm not sure what you mean by a lot of my posts seem to be explaining other peoples' arguments. I read my ISO, and from what I gather there's 1) Talk about no lynch, 2) Defending myself, and 3) Reads on other people.

#451 is what I'm mainly talking about. First you said No Lynching is better than lynching a townie, then you say we should lynch, and yet bring up eclipse who was also being conservative with her vote.

No Lynching is better than lynching a townie. We should lynch unless we have reason to believe the person is a townie. Not sure how I contradicted myself. I was not complaining about eclipse being conservative with her vote, but rather that she was too free with it (I believe she's stated we should go for a Day 1 lynch no matter what).

You also seem very sure we won't lynch a mafia today, which just seems really weird to me, since there's no telling.

Not at all. I've only stated that the probability of lynching a townie is highest on day 1, which is true statistically speaking (obviously there could be scumslips, but there's really no way to account for the probability of those happening).

Will post more on SB's stuff and after later on.

[Percivalé]

I'm upset because this means I probably claimed for no reason asdsa'dada;dal

more on elieson coming in a bit btw because I wouldn't mind lynching him today but haven't explained why yet

[Shinori]

Thank god extension.

[Da Bear]

So... I have to go sleep but I figured I'll tell you guys that life has decided to be mean it is unlikely I'll be around at all tomorrow.

I MIGHT be around for last minute consolidation but that's it.

[Elieson]

Like OMG wtf how did what happened actually happen?

SB's content doesn't change the overview of his slot too much since most of his posts involve his claimy thing, but Weapons seems to be trying. Though putting town reads on the table isn't exactly giving that much insight into where his mind is. MUST REREAD NOT SPEEDREAD

[euklyd]

Just got home and wondered why posts were still going on, but okay cool, I can live with an extension.

SB isn't really feeling scummy to me, and while Manix's stuff still feels scummy, since we're not exactly running the risk of a nolynch now, I have more time to read/consider things. For now I'm ##unvoting

[euklyd]

Oh right, so SB, you aren't the roleblocker after all?

Also @everyone - I'm assuming that hooker = roleblocker, is this correct?

[Percivalé]

yes

[eclipse]

BBM makes a liar out of me, by extending the phase. I won't be around for any weekday phase end, because 9 PM EST = 3 PM HST = I'm at work.

I can't answer your post just yet because /phone (and school)

I can say that one of my problems is that you're coming across very aggressive (in my opinion).

If Grassbridger is aggressive, then I'm off the charts.

Hi Weapons I heart you too.

No Lynching is better than lynching a townie. We should lynch unless we have reason to believe the person is a townie. Not sure how I contradicted myself. I was not complaining about eclipse being conservative with her vote, but rather that she was too free with it (I believe she's stated we should go for a Day 1 lynch no matter what).

There's no such thing as being too free with one's vote on D1. If you guys honestly can't think of anyone better to lynch, I VOLUNTEER. I will not be a happy clipsey if today is a No Lynch.

Hmmmm actually I don't see the benefit. I'm happy for Manix to be lynched.

Goodnight.

Here's a benefit to the extension: People like me can comment on this. I. . .don't like the sentiment, but it's not doing anything for my read on you, which is mildly frustrating.

After sleeping on it, I can't think of any role that would be better activated by a D1 lynch than a D2 lynch following a D1 scumlynch. So, while your role might make it better to lynch you than any other (assumed FYPOV) town, I think it's bad play for you to be driving the lynch onto yourself.

Part 2: actually, I didn't really understand the thing I was responding to either, so let me make sure we're talking about the same thing. I thought you were responding to this from Manix:

You said, "if 1 is true then 2 is automatically false." Well, 2 can't be "automatically false" based on the strength of Shinori's role, because it's an obvservation Manix made (he saw people assuming Shinori was town based on role). The only way that conclusion would possibly make sense is if you assumed people would all recognize the easily-faked-ness of Shinori's role (which I assumed was "playing optimally", although to hear PB tell it, it's not). But in reality, Manix saw people assuming Shinori was town based on role (2), and thought it was a bad idea due to his interpretation of the role (1). Does that clear things up?

Part 3: I was going to vote you, and then stopped because it felt like I was letting emotions, rather than logic, dictate my vote. In retrospect I'm not sure why I felt the need to share that. I guess it's because I'd still be ok with your lynch, since I still find your vote on me to be scummy.

Just because you can't think of it doesn't mean it can't exist. (this goes for you too, Elieson) Survival isn't my goal; making sure the town wins is, and I think the best way I can do that is to flip early, after raising as much hell as possible. After the claim flurry, I think my initial strategy was correct.

For Part 2, here's my logic behind it. If Shinori is faking his claim (first bullet), then he is most likely scum; thus, Manix's second bullet won't apply (as he'll have another role). If Shinori is scum and a sensor, then his role is terrible, because he'd know who's town/scum based on the additional information that scum is privy to. Note that the ONLY way this isn't a complete and utter troll is if it's multiball, but so far, very little has surfaced to make me think that we're dealing with it. However, he spoke up extremely early in the phase, which is something that makes me think he's town; thus, I am willing to believe his claim.

Part 3: That's a valid reason for not voting someone.

You made no mention about the nice block of text at the very end of my last long post. The other reason why my vote is staying put is this (bold mine):

Bad line of inquiry, same reason I'm voting you... You can choose to believe I backed off a mistake as town (what actually happened) or I backed off something I got called on as scum. That's entirely up to you, and I can't do more than present my explanation of what happened, which I have.

From my experiences, if someone has to explicitly say that they're town, they're probably not town. If you're town, your actions should clear you. Look at my ISO, and you'll see a lot of people that I haven't voted for - at least some of them are town reads, and they didn't have to tell the game how town they are.

BBM for worst host ever

This is also why I make sure that my co-hosts are in the role PM

Ahem. . .thanks to that snafu, there's far too many claims out. I'm inclined to believe SB that the host messed up. This, in turn, makes me think he's not worth lynching. I feel that if he was mafia, someone on his team would've said something about his role (I am the worst for using the host to clear someone. . .but this also wouldn't be the first time I've capitalized on perceived mod errors).

I really wish I had an extra 24 hours to respond to stuff, or I'd have my vote on scorri, for being utterly unmemorable (her first mention of SB is in her vote, and I think her most memorable post is a votal). However, it's too late for me to do such things, because I won't be here for phase end. I really want Grassbridger lynched; I absolutely do not like his description of how a townie should act, and if he was town, then he shouldn't have to resort to telling the game that.

[Grassbridger]

I really want Grassbridger lynched; I absolutely do not like his description of how a townie should act, and if he was town, then he shouldn't have to resort to telling the game that.

I DON'T LIKE PEOPLE TELLING ME WHAT TO DO DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO

..but on a serious note, I think I can summarize my description of how a townie should act as follows:

"A townie should scumhunt and try to be successful, and they should help others scumhunt and be successful at it. Defending yourself is necessary, not out of self-preservation but for the good of the town. You have information that others don't: that you are town. Therefore, you should try to convince others that you are not scum, so that their scumhunting has a better chance of succeeding. However, you should not defend yourself when it's not necessary, because this focuses attention on you (a townie) when it could be better focused on someone else (a potential scum)."

If that doesn't clear up any misunderstanding (i.e. you already knew that's what I thought), then this comes down to a difference in strategy/playstyle and I stand by it.

About the second thing... I disagree. I've heard the "and I'm definitely town" line hundreds of times, and in my experience it doesn't really convey any information about the person's alignment or change their likely alignment. I guess that means I shouldn't have included it, since it's just chaff, but I did. My experience might be less relevant here, since it mainly comes from face-to-face mafia games in a group where there are always people who, when examining situations from others' POV, always insert parenthetical "and I'm definitely town"s into their analysis. It's not even a playstyle thing, it's a talk-style thing.

You're right, I totally forgot about that block of text, so here it is.

I don't like how self-conscious your arguments have come across, which is why my vote hasn't moved. Since I'm town, I know that my reads may be off/other people might interpret my actions as scummy/etc. I'm positive the town has a few mislynches, so if I go down, it's not the end of the world for the town - if anything, it'll probably be a net gain. Scum, on the other hand, needs to concentrate on surviving, so doing things like not sticking out and appeasing the masses is what pings me hard. . .and that's how I read your arguments.

I know that a few mislynches will happen every game, but that doesn't mean I like them.

I don't concentrate on surviving, but I do make sure to defend myself because I want to reduce the chance of a mislynch. Also, I don't "appease the masses" so much as accept that I'm really bad at scumhunting--I've completed 3 games here, all as town, and I'm yet to have any accurate scumreads. Any. Except maybe at the very end of Shipping Mafia, I think. Definitely nothing D1. So, if someone tells me I'm being dumb, I have a choice--I can either listen to them, and back off, and get called scummy for backing off (see: this game), or I can not listen to them, and then I keep doing my dumb thing (cause they're probably right) which is bad for obvious reasons (see: Kirby Mafia).

Anyway, I was hoping for 24 hours to reread and get a better grasp on some reads, but that didn't happen, not yet... I'll be around for phase end, maybe like the 3-4 hours beforehand, but not between now and then I think.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

So it has been

Initial reasons for scumminess

Discrediting reasons for scumminess

Reiterating reasons for scumminess

Discrediting reiterated reasons

Reiterating

etc

When it should be

Initial reasons for scumminess

Discrediting reasons for scumminess

Evaluation of response

Possible evaluation of the evaluation

and at this point you can stop

because the first version sucks