It's Time To Duel!!!! Mafia [Game Over]

[Zkirsche]

This makes literally no sense at all given the context

You going "I FoS Prims" and me asking for an expansion to that after questioning your current vote makes perfect sense.

Like fuck, if you wanted to ask me what I thought of Prims you could've said "hey do you think prims is town or scum" instead of the "is he anti-town or pro-scum" shit which makes no sense

How does it make no sense? You clearly understand the difference between pro-scum and anti-town and I wanted you to define which of the two one of your FoSes were. If you said Prims was pro-scum while Shinori was just anti-town then why would you vote Shinori?

Genius, if only it wasn't the very same thing I said in my first post in reply to you that you clearly haven't read.

Yeah I saw that, but that's the only thing I really saw in your Shinori case, so I assumed you had 180'd on that idea. Later on you said that you were leaning scum on Shinori's actions which further cemented my belief that you though Shinori was acting pro-scum and not anti town. Yes I did read what you said, it's just that when you say two things which contradict each other it's hard to get a handle on what is your actual brain process.

I agree that it would be nice to see more from Prims.

Agree with most of kirsche's post but I'd like to hear the thought process behind you disagreeing?

Disagreeing with what? The scorri vote? His switch is bad because there's no real reason for it, he sort of stopped feeling strongly towards Shinori because ??? and then he unvoted and voted Scorri for forgetting she had a vote(?) which isn't necessarily scummy by itself so it feels kinda weak. Vhaltz, what would you like from Scorri at this point?

[scorri]

Honestly I'd guess that he was asking for why you disagree with saying what cards we used.

Personally the more I've thought about it, the more I think it's less useful than people think. It's giving away information about what's in your hand and also what deck you drew from, and also I feel like unless your card gives actual useful information, it's not worth giving out that info.

As for Vhaltz's comments, I agree that I gave a fairly noncommittal read on Prims. And there's a reason for that. It's because I don't think there's enough information in the game yet for me to give a solid read on anyone. Especially not someone that I always have a hard time reading. Basically, I don't trust my read on him enough to warrant a vote, but I was asked to explain my thoughts on him, so I did.

[Elieson]

Paperblade added to IOs list

[Prims]

I agree that it would be nice to see more from Prims.

tbh I'm here but have no opinion on anything even though people are arguing so I'm Lurking As Strategy.

BBM's case on Vhaltz looks good though. ##Unvote, ##Vote: Vhaltz

scorri, what do you think about Vhaltz himself?

[scorri]

Hmm, Vhaltz is interesting. It feels like he was sort of doing the same thing he accused me of doing where he was sort of pushing you but didn't have a vote on you. But apparently that didn't mean he was scum reading you, he was just trying to get you to post more? I dunno, feels kinda weird and his switch off Shinori onto me felt bad but that's probably influenced partially because I know I'm not scum, so of course a vote on me is bad. But... I'm not sure. I'm never sure D1 though so... bleh. Vaguely leaning scum I guess maybe?

[Vhaltz]

His reasons for asking Prims a bunch of questions are all well and good but still don't explain why he prodvoted Shinori due to a passing comment he made over voting Prims. If he felt that scum Prims would respond in a different way to a bad case than town Prims would, logically those differences would be exacerbated if Vhaltz actually voted Prims as well.

See: Being more adamant about Shinori before I noticed his meta explained the behavior. I thought Shinori was likely scum at that point and getting what I wanted out of Prims was a secondary objective.

Scorri is the best I've got after my read on Shinori sucked. Seeing as you've found nothing else to comment on that isn't me I don't think it's accurate to judge that my scumhunting is scummy out of that. Not to mention that I had a bunch of reads I wanted to expand upon but have been forced to out them, like when Eury picked up my "Keeping an eye on Poly because of reasons" in FE6, pushed me about it, saw I didn't reply and looked for stuff in my play to case me for.

In general you don't really explain why anything in my actions or behavior furthers the scum agenda. Nor do the others on my wagon really. If I were scum I'd be BSing safe cases that weren't entirely subjective (BBM should know this after being scum with me) and wouldn't have pressure plans to get better reads on players I shouldn't really care about if I knew they were town?

This has been the day from my perspective:

- I vote Shinori over the post complain thing which is a behaviour tell that I think is scummy.

- I FoS Prims to get him to play the game seriously. Anybody who reads Prims' jokeposts towards the end of page three and reads the meta thing I wrote out "he tends to care more about and reply to early votes/suspicion as scum" will understand why I thought this was worth doing. His posts were sort of defensive but jokeposts all in all so making assumptions from them would be pretty dumb. I got him to answer me seriously with a question about my tell since the tell I used to call him out was bad yet common enough to be used seriously.

- kirsche asks me his question about Prims that I understand as a question about Shinori given the context and terminology. While I'm trying to answer this without giving away any of my plans (the meta thing on Prims and seeing Shinori's reaction to the votes) I kind of find that the tell on Shinori isn't really that great, but stick with it because nothing really relevant has happened and I don't have anything else worth voting. I try to answer the question the best I can without giving away my reads in development because last time I ignored a question Late D1 in FE6 happened and half the game (all town) suspected me. It also crosses my mind that kirsche's question is actually a loaded question coming from scum at some point due to it being so odd and feeling like any answer I gave could lead to twisting up some reasoning to vote me, which is where the whole "anti-town and pro-scum intended as indicating alignment" came from when I replied to SB earlier today (I thought if I said "anti-town" he would vote me for voting bad play over scum play, and if I said "pro-scum" he'd vote me because I called it anti-town earlier). I was pretty convinced kirsche was scum for loading the question during the while I commuted back home and it took me a while to try to keep it neutral and see what his followup was.

- Poly comments on "Shinori play" which makes me lose confidence in my Shinori read when coupled with several people harping on my case. I don't really have anything else at this point. I check the newer posts and nothing I read feels scummy. I liked Randa's SB vote for admitting he wasn't town but figured talking about townreads when people are harping on my case and expecting replies from me is only going to look like I'm scum trying to look townier by handing out random townreads. I also sort of gutread SB recently because so far he sounds like the SB I get annoyed at MotK for wanting to lynch when he's obvtown.

- I try to find scum since I don't want to stick to Shinori anymore and don't want to empty unvote, people were already harping on me and confirmation bias is a thing, you may argue that I shouldn't care about getting wagoned as town and there was a point where I didn't give a damn, but my ego was also abnormally high then and I try to keep it in check now, so basically yeah I do get worries that I fuck up, and I'm going to try not to get lynched instead of just throwing the game and self-voting. scorri pinged me because she's discussing Prims' weirdness with other players but not really doing anything about it by asking him any questions or laying down a vote. Then people continue to harp on everything I do and I'm forced to out everything that I came up with that may have been useful to my scumhunting today.

I'm going full thought process transparency mode now like old days, Prims might want to shoot himself but eh, it's worth a try.

Also apologies that I may have gotten a bit salty at points, frustration slowly accumulating over hours is a thing.

Anything long after BBM's post I haven't read, I don't know what to think about scorri. I'm thinking NNR is probably scum because I was here during the whole time he was lurking and the post just seems fake as hell "sorry it was my bro who took over my computer and did that" kind of excuse. BBM I have a sort of gut pinging on because it feels like he is deliberately handwaving the thought process behind my interactions because they are impossible to paint as scum and focusing on everything else seeing as my play has been all over the place trying to keep my prospects of read development hidden.

It's late and I have to go to bed for reals now. I don't get the feeling that I've been doing that incredibly bad this game but apparently I have. Idk. later!

[Vhaltz]

- I FoS Prims to get him to play the game seriously. Anybody who reads Prims' jokeposts towards the end of page three and reads the meta thing I wrote out "he tends to care more about and reply to early votes/suspicion as scum" will understand why I thought this was worth doing. His posts were sort of defensive but jokeposts all in all so making assumptions from them would be pretty dumb. I got him to answer me seriously with a question about my tell since the tell I used to call him out was bad yet common enough to be used seriously.

I just noticed I interrupted this stream of thought and started another one without remembering to come back and finish this one. w/e

later

[Eurykins]

Hmmm... ED1 shinanegans ahoy.

[Kinda tired/distracted and probably going to be preoccupied with ranked games in League for a bit after this, but offering what few thoughts I have atm regarding game content.]

WRT Valtz (Since everyone seems to be getting worked up over him atm):

- Post #67 (Shinori vote/reasoning): Kinda lazy in the vote choice and altogether semi-derpy in logic, imo.

- Post #78 directed at Kirsche: While I don't agree with him assuming that Kirsche meant someone else (as opposed to who was actually asked about), I see no issues with his latter sentence of wanting to see more from Prims before pulling up a more definitive read on him. Vague, sure- but what do you expect for ED1? [iMO, Poly seemed to be grasping in post #81 in terms of criticizing Valtz's reply.]

- Post #92: Votes for Scorri... for not voting? Uh.... okay.

- Post #98: Namely: "Like fuck, if you wanted to ask me what I thought of Prims you could've said "hey do you think prims is town or scum" instead of the "is he anti-town or pro-scum" shit which makes no sense." Has a semi-townie vibe in terms of frustrations over trying to understand what Kirsche was asking, imo.

- Post #106: I see this as paranoid townish vibes/reactions; I don't see scum squirming this obviously under such ED1 pressure, unless they're really insecure or otherwise inexperienced in being scum (and I doubt either would really apply, so....), and overall just seems like more effort in terms of explanations of what's been said/done than what most scum would put forth. Could be a facade, but this early D1? I doubt it.

Overall: From what I've seen so far on him, I don't think he's truly scummy at this point. His reactions seem more townie to me, but I won't deny his pretty bad/petty votes early on. I do think he should stop focusing so much on defending himself, though, in favor of moving on and scum hunting instead. ED1 or not, you can't bring progress to the table/game if you're too busy trying to pretty yourself all of the time.

And likewise, I'm seeing an easy wagon forming on Vhaltz. So much focus on one person- the tunneling is real.

Other matters in the thread:

Thoughts on everyone claiming what cards they used in the previous night every day? We wouldn't get that info from anyone who got nightkilled and it would force scum to lock in fakeclaims early, so I think it has it's merits. Could be extended to deck chosen too, I guess (2).

Bolded #1: I'm not sure whether to facepalm or laugh, imo.

Italicized: Obviously. If someone's dead, it's given that they can't tell us what they did (unless there was a role that allowed them to say something).

Underlined: I disagree. You realize with various cards/roles/etc. out there, that there can be so many role/action variables in this game? And why would you assume that one would fakeclaim on the scum team early anyways?

Bolded #2: Bad Idea #2. If the cards we get are all the same from each deck that was chosen, then it just gets easier to read what people have.

TL;DR: No. It's a terrible idea, imo, and I would not support it unless the result from an action locks down scum. Even then, the less information given out freely, the less information the scum have to work with.

##Unvote atm, until further thoughts/opinions are formed.

[BBM]

Except you said earlier that Shinori's actions could also come from apathetic town, and you wanted to push him out of it if this was the case. Switching to saying it was a scummy behavioural tell when you had a discussion with Kirsche about how it was an apathy tell and not a scumtell is ???

Your suspicion against me is also pretty reactionary because you've purposely hidden your thought process at parts for the sake of your reaction test (and yes, it was a reaction test, so I don't really like that you don't want to acknowledge it as such- feels like scum trying to avoid the negative connotation), so turning it back on me and saying I'm not looking at your thought process when this is the first time you've even explained it is dumb. So is the idea that I should be able to perfectly recognize the intricate details of your scum meta after one game where we were buddies. And for what it's worth, you are pushing safe cases atm. Your votes have been Shinori for an offhand "so much activity" comment and a vote on Scorri because she didn't vote anybody. These are just textbook "scumtells", while the actual innovation in your play so far was the part you didn't commit to with a vote.

And somehow in that wall of text you didn't say why you didn't vote Prims. Okay, let's say Shinori being apathetic is suspicious. It's still something that can wait. If he's uninterested scum, waiting another page or so to vote for that won't make a huge difference. But the simple act of backing up your Prims reaction test with a vote could make a difference, because it's something transient.

Bearclaw, opinions on something real would be cool, thanks.

[Green Poet]

I have some catching up to do; sorry, guys.

Anyway, from what I've been able to gather so far, and correct me if I'm wrong:

-Prims was sort of a wagon for the first few pages because of his joking/over-reactionary vote in retaliation to BBM's.

-Vhaltz is now a wagon because of people feeling uneasy about his take on Prims and avoiding (?) giving definite reads when asked.

As of right now, I think the basis of the suspicion on Prims was founded a bit too early, and too much on RVS for me to really buy into it.

FoS on Vhaltz for now.

[Green Poet]

Also, eh. . . who's this NNR?

##Vote: NNR

what deck are you guys picking, pharoah for life imo

[Grace]

NNR = NekoRex

this has been your friendly co-host/thing

[Kay]

I have some catching up to do; sorry, guys.

Anyway, from what I've been able to gather so far, and correct me if I'm wrong:

-Prims was sort of a wagon for the first few pages because of his joking/over-reactionary vote in retaliation to BBM's.

-Vhaltz is now a wagon because of people feeling uneasy about his take on Prims and avoiding (?) giving definite reads when asked.

As of right now, I think the basis of the suspicion on Prims was founded a bit too early, and too much on RVS for me to really buy into it.

FoS on Vhaltz for now.

FoS is dumb unless it's a secondary suspicion, there's no reason not to vote instead unless you're worried about quickhammers, which are definitely not a problem now. And do you have any reasoning for FoSing Vhaltz besides "I need a scumread and there's a wagon on him"?

Seems like a way for scum to try to avoid being called out for their vote to me, but IIRC Green Poet is new, since FoS is normal on some sites it could be unfamiliarity with SF meta.

In general you don't really explain why anything in my actions or behavior furthers the scum agenda. Nor do the others on my wagon really. If I were scum I'd be BSing safe cases that weren't entirely subjective (BBM should know this after being scum with me) and wouldn't have pressure plans to get better reads on players I shouldn't really care about if I knew they were town?

Bad self-meta. Otherwise I'm not terribly concerned about Vhaltz, I think him failing at semantics is a bit scummy but not as bad as this.

Scorri is really noncommittal and waffly.

##Vote: Vhaltz

[Green Poet]

Oh, thanks, Manix!

FoS is dumb unless it's a secondary suspicion, there's no reason not to vote instead unless you're worried about quickhammers, which are definitely not a problem now. And do you have any reasoning for FoSing Vhaltz besides "I need a scumread and there's a wagon on him"?

Seems like a way for scum to try to avoid being called out for their vote to me, but IIRC Green Poet is new, since FoS is normal on some sites it could be unfamiliarity with SF meta.

From what I've seen of other SF players using it, I gathered that FoS is a sort of middle ground between simply expressing a half-hearted suspicion and voting. That's what I'd been feeling regarding Vhaltz at the time of writing, since I had no conviction for his wagon other than what people had already brought up about his indecision and overreaction.

If FoS has no tangible weight, though, then sure - I'll put my vote where my mouth is.

##Vote: Vhaltz

As for other reasons. . .

- Poly comments on "Shinori play" which makes me lose confidence in my Shinori read when coupled with several people harping on my case. I don't really have anything else at this point. I check the newer posts and nothing I read feels scummy.

This seems off to me. Those suspicious of Vhaltz have asked him to state exactly who he believes is scum, and that his avoiding doing so is what has brought on their suspicion. Yet he continues to hold off on answering here, and backs off from the scumread he did have on Shinori. . .? This still seems like noncommittal play to me.

[Prims]

wouldn't it be cool if somebody put vhaltz at L-1 and there was a mayor

##Unvote

Kay, why is Vhaltz a better vote than scorri if you're not terribly concerned about him? Is scorri being "noncommittal and waffly" suspicious or just an offhand comment?

I'm not really impressed by Vhaltz acting like he should be obvtown on thought process when he hasn't done anything that couldn't be faked.

[Kay]

I said I was not terribly concerned about him otherwise. The rest of his content had some problems, but I didn't feel it was worth voting him over Poet without the self-meta. The bad self-meta argument put it over the line. Scorri being waffly is mostly an offhand comment, I'll be suspicious if she does it for long but right now I'm not finding it scummy.

[Zkirsche]

(I thought if I said "anti-town" he would vote me for voting bad play over scum play, and if I said "pro-scum" he'd vote me because I called it anti-town earlier

If you called your Prims suspicion based on something pro-scum then I would've voted you, if you had called it weaker anti-town then I would've been ok with it. The whole vote priority feels bad in general, because if you wanted Prims to react to a wagon so badly why didn't you just vote him, especially as Shinori wasn't being pro-scum he was being anti-town. You flipflopping on whether he's scummy or not doesn't help either.

I was pretty convinced kirsche was scum for loading the question during the while I commuted back home and it took me a while to try to keep it neutral and see what his followup was.

Trying to get a neutral perspective to respond to stuff is ok, but if you were pretty convinced I was scum at one point why are you no longer convinced? Or convinced less than Scorri pings, at least.

Honestly I'd guess that he was asking for why you disagree with saying what cards we used.

I disagreed because asking everyone to out all their info at the start of each day is a bad idea? "It'd force scum to fakeclaim early" is not a reason to massclaim ever and he knows it.

Ok so because that idea was dumb I reread him and he's unmemorable as fuck:

##Unvote

##Vote:SB

That idea was terrible and all he's done since is make passing comments on Vhaltz/people's cases against Vhaltz.

[Vhaltz]

I was replying to BBM atm but I don't see going point-by-point quote wars changing anybody's minds. I will answer a few things while I review a bunch of players but I don't think focusing on replying cases on me is going to do any good. If a lot of people want me to answer a few specific points of my play then I'll do it.

Pedited after writing half the post because I actually did spend a significant amount of time clarifying things. Fuck me.

Reads so far:

SB -> probably town. Mostly due to writing style and the way he's going about asking questioning his suspects. As scum they'd sound more aggressive and here they have a hint of indecisiveness. I don't really know how to word it beyond this.

I'll attempt to explain Shinori from the beginning since people are having a lot of issue with my Shinori read and the way I went about it when I dropped it.

I brought up the postcount thing as something scummy, because it is. When asked if it could also come from town, I answered yes it could. Apathy is anti-town, and when I say it's anti-town that doesn't imply that I think it's bad play coming from town, it means that it goes against town's wincon, regardless of what alignment it's coming from. And when I say I found it to be on the scummy side instead of the null side and thought Shinori was scum because of it it's not because I instead thought it's pro-scum, I voted because anti-town behavior was worth a vote whether it came from scum or town, and because I was leaning toward it coming from scum.

Apathy being anti-town means that it usually comes from an anti-town (scum) mindset -> the whole thing I commented about it being a slip tell and not a scum intent tell. As such, anti-town apathy could be coming from scum (which is what I believed early on) or from town acting like they shouldn't (because they shouldn't be incorporating scum behavior into their play as town, effectively ruining otherwise good scumtells). I thought it was coming from scum when I first brought it up and didn't really care if I was wrong and he was town being anti-town because then he'd step up him game after he saw I was taking it seriously.

During the while that I was hiding my definite read on Shinori from questions, I was waffling on whether it was more likely to be coming from town seeing as he did similar stuff in the few other games I've read here. Then I pretty much figured I'd drop it after Poly confirmed it being Shinori meta because I didn't see it as a good scumtell for him anymore, if I decided to keep pushing it despite that, I wasn't going to get any good reactions from Shinori with all of the defending from other players, and I was going to keep being suspected over the tell seeing as pretty much everybody else knows Shinori better than I do and was much more likely to see the other end of the tell and think that I was bad for using it given the circumstances.

And that's when I dropped Shinori and voted scorri because I couldn't find anything else worth voting. I frown at people calling me out for bad scumhunting wrt the Shinori tell and the scorri vote because if you discount me (who you guys are voting) there was jack else to vote for at the time. I could've voted Prims perhaps, but that would've been voting a null read with fake conviction over an actual slight scumread.

As of right know I dislike how he stretched my ED1 offhand comment on Kay as something scummy. Here's the context:

Prims: "why is Shinori a better target than Kay or Randa just because he made a remark about the pagecount"

Vhaltz: "Voting for Kay or Randa atm would be voting for lack of content. There's nothing to even grasp at unless you want to say Kay's Shinori vote is grasping"

Shinori is either misunderstanding or misrepping what I said here by assuming I was commenting on this as something suspicious instead of something I was considering not suspicious and not worth voting over Shinori (which should be understandable in context?). I think I lean more towards it being a misunderstanding atm but the timing of the vote during the sudden wagon building stage makes me wary of scum intent being hidden in a derpy post. I'm keeping my eye on him.

I've reread BBM with a cool head now and I think he's just being dumb and going for the easiest case. I still dislike that he calls my suspicion reactionary because I was clearly treating people on my wagon differently and he was the only one on my wagon I suspected, I had legit reasons to think he was BSing a case from my PoV last night until more wagon building happened while I was sleeping and it convinced me that it's likely enough that I'm just sucking this game and he doesn't necessarily have to be scum because of the case he made.

@BBM, worth reading for kirsche too due to the whole anti-town/pro-scum thing.

Wrt the not voting Prims when testing him. The reason why I didn't vote Prims is in what I already said: I thought Shinori was scum. I'm evidently not a master at gauging reactions to get better reads since I've only actually done this consistently in these last two games, the only other one being FE6 in which covering up my reads also yielded large suspicions. There was also that one MotK game where I called my ED1 case on you a reaction test as well, but that was just a lie so I could throw out my case and build another one from scratch so that people would stop disregarding everything I said just because the ED1 case was bad.

After reading your posts more carefully. Do note that there's a difference between my FoS and my actual test when I asked him about my tell. When I FoS'd him I was deliberately using a bad tell but the intent was to cut the joking as opposed to gauging a reaction (which is why I'm not calling this a reaction test), then I came up with the followup question wrt what he thought of my tell which was a reaction test.

Also scum apathy = scum behavioral tell = slip tell = anti-town =! pro-scum =! scummy in a "scum intent" manner. I don't understand why this is so hard to understand? Here's the guide I use to categorize scumtells, but idk how much that's going to help because I feel that the issue here is that "anti-town" and "pro-scum" are being used as different kinds of "scummy" and are terms that people appear to understand differently.

I've read scorri's recent posts and the way she immediately understood where I was coming from and admitted her mistake doesn't really sound like something scum would do? The way she's going around her suspicion on me is also very similar to the way she went around the Prims suspicion and reads genuine, I highly doubt somebody would keep doing noncommittal wagon pushes after being correctly called out on it as scum. Leaning slightly town.

Eury feels town, some of the reasons she came up with to clear me were not obvious at all and pretty unlikely to come from scum white-knighting a wagon instead of an actual town perspective. You could argue that she's my scumbuddy defending me and etc but if I do end up getting lynched and flip town then you can not lynch her.

Kay's vote over self-meta is scummy, she is ignoring literally all of everything else I have done in the game. There's a lot to of questionable content from me to poke at but she just decided to roll with the policy lynch-ish reasons of lynching over self-meta use. I come from a different forum where this is highly common (see: anything by Conqueror) and the lack of any attempt to explain why self-meta holds scum intent or scum mindset leads me to suspect that this is just a gratuitous wagon hop coming from scum who's seeing a talkative town get all of the heat and doesn't really have to worry about doing much to get a mislynch. Her "self meta is bad" literally just amounts to throwing out the "self-meta" term in surrounding context tailored to make it look like The Worst Offense And Scummiest Scumtell.

tl;dr the way she's going about her vote is not explaining why anything I did is scummy and she's coasting on everybody else's reasons to wagon at an opportunistic juncture.

##Unvote

##Vote: Kay

Mentioning Prims as still null for the sake of mentioning my read on him, although I haven't really paid that much attention to his latest posts yet. Everybody else I didn't mention is either also null or I haven't really looked into them yet. Posting this for now

[Zkirsche]

lel

*I vote SB*

Vhaltz: SB is probably town guys. His defence would be ok if SB actually had suspects that weren't called Vhaltz.

My definition of Anti-town is "Not good for scum but not helping town." whereas Pro-scum play is actively helping mafia win (like defending buddies etc). Might be wrong but that's how I viewed it and how I thought most people viewed it. What you said made me think you thought the same as me.

Also what is your read on me, considering you were convinced I was scum at one point.

@Mod/anyone with time: Can we have ISOs?

[Vhaltz]

Trying to get a neutral perspective to respond to stuff is ok, but if you were pretty convinced I was scum at one point why are you no longer convinced? Or convinced less than Scorri pings, at least.

Because when you wrote your reply to me and it was really ragey I started replying while annoyed about it and shortly noticed that it could just be townie frustration over replying to a different question than the one you were intending to ask.

See conclusion in the guide I linked in the last post:

"1. Universal tells can be strong evidence of guilt. However, it is vitally important to examine the context to see if a reasonable, pro-town rationale exists."

Logically speaking you'd be null, but you're kind of leaning town because my gut tells it's more likely that it was coming from spontaneous townie frustration than calculated scum emotion tailoring (more difficult to fake). The confusion wrt different understandings of pro-scum and anti-town also reads genuine and would be kind of a shitty case to build if scum because :semantics:

[Zkirsche]

His defence would be ok if SB actually had suspects that weren't called Vhaltz.

This is not what Vhaltz said, this is what I'm saying. Forgot to put quotation marks on the statement before.

[Vhaltz]

Because when you wrote your reply to me and it was really ragey I started replying while annoyed about it and shortly noticed that it could just be townie frustration over replying to a different question than the one you were intending to ask.

Should be obvious but I forgot to mention that the annoyance stemmed from me thinking that it was your way of asking the question that was wholely responsible for the problem and that there was nothing wrong with the way that I understood it. Then I stopped thinking about who was right and who was wrong and saw that even if I thought that the way I understood it was The Correct Way given the circumstances, it would still lead to frustration to a townie who really intended to ask a different question.

[Vhaltz]

wrt SB we literally posted at the same time. He just flipped town in the MotK game I mentioned I was being frustrated at because they were trying to lynch him when he was obvtown, so idk. Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself in giving him a townread just because I was so confident that I was right about his alignment in this other game.

I don't see anything I actively disagree with in your case but I still think Kay's blatant wagon hopping over a policy-lynch reason without addressing anything else is significantly scummier than being unmemorable.

I think I also covered the Prims thing in that last big post and I have to rush to lunch and class now

[Prims]

words

how does half of this post matter 24 hours into day 1 when nobody was even talking about the players you called town or OK. I feel like this is some form of reverse active lurking where even though there's content Vhaltz is scummy as fuck because town doesn't waste people's time like this. Walls are anti-town, I'm not even joking.

##Vote: Eurykins

I think Eury is scummy for posting a huge defense of somebody without proposing any alternative. I initially thought she was unvoting because she was gonna make a follow-up post but now I realize she was just waiting for other people to do things which makes her post really unimpressive. Too easy to white-knight a large wagon and town should be focused on finding scum, not shooting down other people's scumhunting. If she really found it reasonable to defend Vhaltz as town I'm not sure why she wouldn't look into anybody else who was drawing attention at the same time.

kirsche's vote on SB amounts to a park imo since once SB starts posting again it's going to be irrelevant. Bringing up SB's bad idea is padding the case since townies can suggest bad ideas as well, otherwise there are a lot of unmemorable people beyond just SB (Randa for an example). Most of all though I got the impression kirsche rebounded to a weak vote because he felt like he couldn't push his Vhaltz case any further and it irks me.

[Zkirsche]

[spoiler=ISOs]

Mango Sentinel

3-13 Garland

Randa

kirsche

dragonfang13

Psych

Green Poet

Eurykins

Shinori

Prims

scorri

SB

Vhaltz

NekoRex

BBM

Kay

kirsche's vote on SB amounts to a park imo since once SB starts posting again it's going to be irrelevant.

Just because SB has started posting again doesn't make the fact that he was avoiding contributing disappear. Plus, if SB has started posting again he will hopefully have content that can be thoroughly analysed. I disagree with calling my vote weak as an unmemorable!SB = scum!SB, see Inception and MLP and unmemorability is common for scum in general (see: the rest of Inception, lots of other mafias). I got the unmemorable impression more from SB than Randa and co because I feel like the latter just haven't posted whereas SB has posted, but contributed very little. Actually rereading Randa has posted too, but again unmemorable fits ScumBee more anyway.

Also I clearly didn't feel like I couldn't push Vhaltz because I was still pushing him in the post where I switched.

MIght actually read the ISOs now that I have them.