It's Time To Duel!!!! Mafia [Game Over]

[BBM]

Sorry guys, my problems connecting to SF from my home computer went from "taking 30 seconds to load a page" to "not connecting at all", so I will probably need a sub since I don't normally get time to post on campus like I am now.

I don't really want to lynch Vhaltz, Eury, or SB tbh. This is my best pick atm: ##Vote: Randa

I feel like someone characterized his play well when they said that he was just trying to sow doubt. It seems like he was just trying to redirect attention away from himself when he pointed to people he felt were voteparking, without really trying to pursue any of them in any way. It doesn't really feel like he's committed to anything, and he just says he's waffling on Vhaltz but doesn't say why, after posting a reason to be suspicious about him. It feels heavily like a way to stay on the fence about the major wagon. Also for someone who disliked so much that NNR was lurking and not responding to his prodvote, he didn't really try to look at Shin at all once Shin subbed in, which makes me think that the NNR vote is faked.

[Randa]

I'm going to say this again because people apparently didn't see it when I answered Bear and Prim on the exact same question. I was not asking people what everyone thought on the other people who were still voting on Vhaltz. I was quite simply asking why Vhaltz chose to focus on Kay. Not trying to throw people into doubt, just very simply trying to see why Vhaltz was so focused on Kay.

[BBM]

reads post

Poly: Posting style feels different. Nothing definite but worth keeping an eye on. Didn't see anything bad as such in his posts though.

3-13 Garland: lol

Randa: See last post. To his most recent post: maybe because

Kirsche: leaning town overall but nothing definite

Bearclaw: hasn't posted enough but I think he lurks because of content troubles more often as town than scum.

Psych: getting a read on Psych ;_;

Green Poet: I don't have time to check her ISO but honestly I can't remember anything she's done or said. I don't think she was this unmemorable in EO2?

Eury: leaning town, posts read :tryhard: and :effort: instead of :sighhhhhhh:

Shinori: no idea

Prims: I don't have a problem really with anything he's posted but he's lurking heavily, especially if you compare to School of Hard NOCs. Worth keeping an eye on.

scorri: Not sure, but just getting a vague gut townread

SB: His posts feel overall more involved than they do when he's scum, so leaning town

Vhaltz: Really don't know at this point but tbh I can't even remember the case on him right now? Which is why I don't feel up to lynching him atm.

NNR/Shin: Not much to judge.

Kay: Vhaltz vote sucked and was easily the weakest but tbh I'm not sure she'd just jump on the biggest wagon so blatantly if she was scum. Might be a bus because she figured it was an ED1 wagon that would blow over but if Vhaltz is town I think she would be too.

[Shinori]

reads post

3-13 Garland: lol

Shinori: no idea

I feel like we got the short end of the stick.

[Vhaltz]

I should be reading because I doubt everybody is going to instantly change their minds and sheep me on scorri, but instead I'm writing up an extremely facetious post about how I'm scum and how my theoretical scumteam is supposed to win a role dependant game by bussing me full speed ahead D1. I'm not going to actually post it though because some dude is probably going to just quote it and say I claimed scum or claim that I'm abusing refuge in audacity and should die.

But it's still really fun to let myself live the illusion for a little bit that none of the wagon on me is my fault and that everything else is what's dumb. I apologize.

Seriously though, I really don't want to vote Eury or SB. Some of my other townreads or justifications for potentially scummy things I've made probably blow but I'm pretty sure I'm right about these two. I guess I'll look into Randa if that's the only other alternative, I haven't paid attention to his posts in the last few hours.

[Vhaltz]

... but I also get the feeling that Randa isn't scum. I'm having way too many townreads this game and some of them are bound to be wrong. I'd maybe vote Eury before Randa if I had to choose amongst the two.

I'd much rather lynch amongst Kay/scorri/Poly if possible but I have the feeling I don't get to choose. Gonna spend a while reading Randa/Eury/SB and I figure I'll vote for not me over me if there's nothing else by the time I go to bed (in 2-3ish hours).

[Zkirsche]

I'm a little drunk and I don't feel like posting but if Vhaltz was scum he'd probably forge a Eury case. Still happy with my Eury vote.

[Vhaltz]

This part of Poly's last post is actually really bad. The self-meta feels really forced like he's trying to force the idea of him being town rather than just shrugging off what were basically a couple of people saying his posts were weird. The Vhaltz meta also seems incredibly forced and is completely unexplained, and considering you've literally played one day with town!Vhaltz, of course you'll be reminded of the only other game you've played with him. The "people wising up to his meta" part is also looks like it's just justifying the situation to fit your case. I also don't like how you say you don't want to lynch Eury but don't actually say what you think of her.

I hadn't noticed SB had changed votes (too focused on the scorri thing) and this is actually 10/10

1. That seems more anti-town than scummy, tbh. It does pose a problem to town if one of us is generally not being helpful, but I don't see that as being inherently scummy. This game does seem a fair bit harder to read than most right now.

2. Also Vhaltz, your point about Prims attacking Randa for his going after me are pretty much irrelevant, for two reasons:

1) Randa wasn't really reading me as scum; he was merely addressing my points in an (admittedly a bit angry) manner.

2) I'm actually not usually like that, as many players have pointed out. I am operating differently than usual, but I think part of that relates to my current disposition IRL (ftr, I'm very much NOT happy with my life right now).

3. I'm kind of surprised nobody saw my angry/semi-angry responses as a callback to Day 5 of Healer, though, when I yelled at Shinori for being an idiot and trying to lynch me when I was Cop. Like, I gave him no reasoning for why he was being an idiot aside from "WTF bro, I'm the fucking Cop". Luckily he wised up and we ended up winning that game, but seriously.

4. I'm still not sold on Vhaltz being town, though. I still feel like a lot of his posts are padding his content, and he hasn't really added a whole lot to discussion aside from being the subject of a great deal of it. In addition, I'm feeling a lot of Healer vibes from his post when he was maf and literally everyone but Elie had him as a town read. I kinda feel like this time people have wised up to his meta, and that's why his wagon never really died.

5. Eury should still try and defend herself, though, before phase end. That's kinda why I don't want to lynch her today over Vhaltz, but I guess if the wagon's gonna go down, I'll hop on for consolidation purposes.

The whole post is talking for the sake of talking. Point 1 is the only thing remotely redeemable in the post but it's basic mafia theory discussion and not alignment-indicative. To SB's case I'd add that point 2. is also BS because it's an illusion of content against me. The post I made about Randa was only there as a reply to kirsche about what my read on him was and I specifically called Prims "lazy/biased" because it was not intended to imply that he was scummy for it.

I completely agree with SB on 3. It feels like Poly is just alarmed that I called him out on the rage being potentially scummy and he's trying to make up a reason to justify it so that other people don't suspect him for it. I think the most damning thing is that the self meta he talks about makes no sense in the application here. He's referring to a situation in which he was trying to convince somebody that he was town, whereas here there was nobody suspecting him at the time of the post that he overused rage in. If it was intentional like he is making it out to be, it also makes no sense that he'd wait until later to explain that it was.

This is also not the first time that he's suspiciously specific in his attempts to clear all suspicions on something scummy he did being pointed out.

Suspicion: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=46734&p=2988979

Response:

Because I want more out of her. The case feels like it's lacking because there's not much to it because of her lack of content, so I want more. Kay's more of a null read ATM because of this, but I'm wanting to see more from her before I move on from it.

Feels way too worried about his image to be town!Poly

Point 5 is entirely making up shit to open himself up to voting the other wagon if the interest in me dies out, Eury had been replying to all that everybody had to say about her.

##Unvote

##Vote: Poly

[Shinori]

"If Vhaltz was scum he'd forge a Eury case."

So then you think Vhaltz is town Kirshe? If so then why would scum!Eury do what she has done? Unless you just think she's an awful player. Really seems lazy imo.

I need to reread Randa and Poly.

[Vhaltz]

Randa I'm like 99% sure Psych isn't going to get lynched today so I recommend you to vote whoever you feel is most likely to be scum amongst the guys with wagons (me, Poly, SB, Eury)

There's only like 6~ hours until day end, so it doesn't really matter if you don't have a big case on the person you want to vote, just vote whoever your gut tells you is more likely to flip red.

[Randa]

I feel like I should put down a vote before the phase ends so I'm gonna just write out what's going through my head right now. You guys can judge it however you want.

Vhaltz: The more he post the less certain I am he's scum. He's not showing any of the tendencies I expect from scum and has actually been helping in evaluating others. He's had a wider range for his reads than most which think is helpful in giving us material on him and everybody else. I really can't justify voting him at this time.

Poly: He's acting so weird that I'm compelled to say he's either drunk or scum. But something say he's just drunk. I don't think he would be so open about his style of play and showing why he would be scum if he where scum. I could bullshit a reason and justify voting him but that doesn't seem like what I should do.

SB: He's probably the one person that I have the hardest time reading. I don't know which way he goes.

Psych: My biggest scum read of the game. Makes stuff up to start a case on me and when I ask for proof of his claims he disappears. Doesn't add anything to the other discussions at all either. But everybodys just passing this over like he hasnt even posted. He is who I think we should lynch but there's no way in hell the wagon will build quick especially with me leading it.

Prims: The more time passes the more I think he's scum. He seems to reserved for his usual style. He's playing back in the shadows not even trying to direct us towards any reads of his own. But again how the hell am I supposed to get a wagon on him going. Even if it does start he probably be able to break it up quickly.

All that being said I only really have one option if I vote Vhaltz I look like I'm covering my ass, if I vote poly I'm contradicting myself, if I vote SB I'm trying to blend in, and I can't vote for people without a wagon causes that's just being too safe. No matter how I play it I look bad. That being said I think I got one option that I can at least accept.

##Vote: SB

[Vhaltz]

There are many people that post how they'd play as scum as either alignment to convince others that they are town, so that isn't really a tell that works very well as a reason to think Poly isn't scum.

Like, I posted what I would play like as scum earlier in the day and that didn't necessarily make you think that I wasn't scum back then, right?

I'm kind of trying to get you to vote for Poly here because I think he's scum and that SB is the player most likely to be town in the game. If you're voting SB over Poly just because other people would call you out on being a hypocrite or something then I'd advise you to reconsider because wagon consolidation votes don't always have to have the best of reasonings. If you're voting because you genuinely think SB is more likely to be scum than Poly then just ignore this.

[SB.]

Poly: He's acting so weird that I'm compelled to say he's either drunk or scum. But something say he's just drunk. I don't think he would be so open about his style of play and showing why he would be scum if he where scum. I could bullshit a reason and justify voting him but that doesn't seem like what I should do.

>he could be scum

>have to bullshit reason to vote him

what

SB: He's probably the one person that I have the hardest time reading. I don't know which way he goes.

All that being said I only really have one option if I vote Vhaltz I look like I'm covering my ass, if I vote poly I'm contradicting myself, if I vote SB I'm trying to blend in, and I can't vote for people without a wagon causes that's just being too safe. No matter how I play it I look bad. That being said I think I got one option that I can at least accept.

##Vote: SB

You shouldn't care about how you look. You should care about finding scum, which this vote is NOT doing.

Prims: The more time passes the more I think he's scum. He seems to reserved for his usual style. He's playing back in the shadows not even trying to direct us towards any reads of his own. But again how the hell am I supposed to get a wagon on him going. Even if it does start he probably be able to break it up quickly.

you've played literally one game with prims, how could you know this

[Vhaltz]

Gonna analyze SB/Randa/Eury in case I get lynched because I haven't been giving in-depth reasons for my townreads on them.

[spoiler=Townreads and stuff that's probably only relevant post-flip]SB is town as fucc and you guys should definitely not lynch him after I flip town if you end up lynching me. When he's town I find his posts really agreeable and it's very easy for me to follow his train of thought on things, if he's scum he usually has to make up more convoluted reasons to mislynch somebody who he knows is town. This is sort of a personal tell and I can understand people wouldn't want to trust my judgement over their own, but if I get lynched and then SB gets lynched D2 I'll cry.

Randa is a slighter town read who feels like frustrated town being pursued for small nitpicks. I can understand where he's coming from with all of his content posts and the cases on him are really unimpressive and easy for scum to make. In the grand scheme of things I am not completely convinced that he is undoubtedly town like I do with SB, but I wouldn't lynch him today and most likely wouldn't for the next couple of days until I ran out of scummier suspects to gun after or he did something very obviously pro-scum.

My reasons for not wanting to lynch Eury are still there, I did the same thing with Eury as I did with Randa essentially shooting down the cases with "it wouldn't be very far fetched for town to do this", but unlike with SB and Randa which feel like weak cases, I can understand why people found Eury scummy wrt her priorities and the reasons for her SB vote. I'd be least opposed to vote here if absolutely necessary but I really want Poly lynched instead. I'm also starting to figure that this game is going to be a nightmare for me if I don't get lynched today with a lot of people still suspecting me so the urge to vote her for survival is decreasing a lot.

Scrap all the other dumb townreads I came up with like Prims and Psych because I'm really not sure about them at all compared to SB and Randa. I wouldn't be too surprised if they were scum in the grand scheme of things and I happened to be unable to come up with a case on them just because they've been posting very little. kirsche is fine though, not as solid as SB/Randa but probably town

[Vhaltz]

SB if you're tempted to vote Randa don't. We can do this Poly wagon, fucking go.

I'm getting the nagging feeling that the Poly lynch could plausibly happen despite being very late in the day but I'm going to have to go to bed eventually and a possible Prims!scum is going to push for my lynch to get rid of me.

[Randa]

>he could be scum

>have to bullshit reason to vote him

what

I should've said I can see why he would be scum. But I just don't think he is. It's one of the most obvious reads. But who the hell makes it so obvious. It doesn't make sense.

You shouldn't care about how you look. You should care about finding scum, which this vote is NOT doing.

Unfortunately that's what I have been doing. Nobodies actually bothered to comment on the people who I've asked about. And whenever I try to bring forth somebody else to consider I look like the bad guy. I'm getting very frustrated here because so many people are trying to just cover there own ass. And I know that's exactly what I'm doing. And god damnit I hate myself for doing. But right now I don't see anyway I look good in this case and I'm probably gonna be lynched day 2. Lets face it the wagons gonna pushed and I'm gonna get killed that's how it's going to happen. It's so frustrating.

you've played literally one game with prims, how could you know this

Cause I've actually read other games. When he's played as scum it's always in a more refined fashion never really out in the open actually doing the searching. Which is exactly what he's doing now.

I don't know what to do.

##Unvote

[Elieson]

Speaking of late

Seven

Seven hours

[Zkirsche]

Eury hasn't really done anything under the serious threat of being lynched though, Shinori. Scum don't usually react to being the main lynch prospect by going "ehh maybe I'll vote him over me later".

Anyway, going to bed.

[MRDRHAWK]

ugh fuck you Vhaltz for trying to make this stupid wagon a thing

Might as well claim now before he gets me mislynched. I'm a neighbour maker; I can choose one user each night to gain OC with the following day. I've a shot each of vig + active bomb in my hand, though with this claim I don't expect to last long enough to use it because scum's probably gonna be all over my ass.

And no, even if I try to use my role on scum, it'll still work, as Elie confirmed earlier.

Now can we please lynch Vhaltz already?

[Green Poet]

First,

##Unvote

I may not get another chance to post before phase end, and I presently don't believe Vhaltz's most recent posts are consistent with the reasons I'd voted him for initially. I think his claim doesn't help nor harm his case, since his cards aren't explicitly or necessarily belonging to town.

Null on Eury right now. I do think her defense of Vhaltz was premature, and wouldn't have a consistent payoff if she was town, but this isn't enough to convince me to vote her. I may have misinterpreted what she'd meant about taking the initiative to vote over not doing so, and can't particularly fault her there.

Not liking how Randa defaults to observational posts recounting what people have been doing, and tries to draw attention to people he notes are voteparking/inactive, whom he realizes have posted directly afterwards. Seems like posting for the sake of appearing to be active.

Psych avoiding stating reads is questionable to me as well.

What did I do that's pro scum? I'm not trying to get an easy vote on the bandwagon, i'm not voting you, i'm not doing anything detrimental to the town, and i'm certainly not trying to throw out easy ways to get info yet repealing my stance while still being open for later "incase anyone else wants to share cards"

I'm seeing an attempt to get others to elaborate on why they think he's scum, while not offering a defense, nor his own thoughts as to who may be scum.

Prims usually telegraphs his powers

or fake claims cop first post of day 2

More posts like this, that offer bits of meta on Prims but doesn't help us know who he's suspecting.

So i have to oppose any wagon with you or can I be okay with your lynch even if I preferred a different one? I didn't realize we had to keep you alive

Same issues with this. Psych's recent posts lack thoughts regarding anyone but Vhaltz. Granted, Vhaltz's lynch is the most likely at this point and he should be discussed, but there's every reason to expand on one's thoughts on others.

[Vhaltz]

Randa yessssss. I really don't want you and SB fighting each other. Please work together if I die.

I also agree with the sentiment that Prims is not unlikely to be scum because even if he was being apathetic town this game because of it being boring in comparison to the last one with all the old players and stuff, he still fucking loves being around nearing deadlines and leading the lynch onto the guy he thinks he's scum.

Cut

I love how you're totally blaming me for the wagon when I wasn't even the one who started it. If you're town for some remote possibility can you stop being confirmation bias blinded?

The last power I mentioned I had that's extremely situational is a neighbourizer + lovedmaker and I don't think this card would be RNG'd amongst alignments and has to have been purposefully given to town because it would be OP for scum to have, so I'm ??? on your neighbor claim.

Like it's not impossible but the 1-shot roles you claim to have are like insanely more powerful than my own which all have strictly situational utility and I kind of doubt you have that?

And why would scum even want to kill you after claiming you have a freaking bomb? that makes no sense.

[MRDRHAWK]

It's ACTIVE, Vhaltz. I'm basically suicidal vig like JB was last game.

[Prims]

people complaining about me lurking are being lame since my sleep schedule is fucked up and I woke up at 5PM only to find 4 new pages, and also I do sometimes lurk as town (especially when everybody else is posting too much) because my playstyle isn't consistent so it wouldn't even mean anything if I was around

Voting for Eury is extremely dumb unless you want to think we're scum together. If I'm town and she's scum white-knighting my wagon* there's absolutely no reason for her to follow through with her defense on me so hard. She started gathering suspicion rather fast and all it would take for scum!Eury to avoid having the wagon build any further would be going back to some part of my posts she didn't defend and say "oh hey guys this is scummy you were right, idk anymore" and switch to null focusing on other things instead of digging herself a grave the way she is doing atm.

this is all really stupid WIFOM, scum!Eury changing her mind wouldn't make her look better because nobody finds her scummy for thinking you're town, it's the way she went about it

being around nearing deadlines and leading the lynch onto the guy he thinks he's scum.

unfortunately I don't have any strong reads

ill support a vhaltz lynch if it gets him to stop posting walls of text 24 hours into day 1 in future games but i'm pretty sure he's town at this point so whatever

I'll look further into the current wagons and make a vote I guess, what are votals?

[SB.]

I want to sleep, but ugh.

I don't think the way Vhaltz is going about things is scum motivated. I feel like he would've been trying to force a Eury or Randa counterwagon rather than saying that we can stay on Poly.

I believe Poly's claim for what it's worth just because >faking vig shots. He shoots tonight and if a safeguard exists they sit on him to stop roleblocks if they want to.

##Unvote

##Vote: Eurykins

I pretty much decided that Vhaltz is just town who didn't want to lynch Eury and Eury's lack of mentions on him is bad imo. Rajam is weird but I really can't decide if he's actually scummy or not so I'm going with this.

[Green Poet]

Might as well claim now before he gets me mislynched. I'm a neighbour maker; I can choose one user each night to gain OC with the following day. I've a shot each of vig + active bomb in my hand, though with this claim I don't expect to last long enough to use it because scum's probably gonna be all over my ass.

Is this a three-card/shot neighborizer you have?

I'm kind of surprised nobody saw my angry/semi-angry responses as a callback to Day 5 of Healer, though, when I yelled at Shinori for being an idiot and trying to lynch me when I was Cop. Like, I gave him no reasoning for why he was being an idiot aside from "WTF bro, I'm the fucking Cop". Luckily he wised up and we ended up winning that game, but seriously.

If not, your claim seems inconsistent with what you were saying here. I thought you were crumbing some sort of investigative role to people who'd played Healer.