British Mafia - Game Over! Britain Wins!

[FrostyFireMage]

What I'm getting at is that it's odd that you've given an in-depth read of those three while giving short opinions on everybody else. Call it a gut-read if you must.

You would also be capable of making an accurate estimation of the amount of townies/scum/solo players if you were scum.

[Sunwoo]

I'm going to bed soon, might as well try to catch some hours of sleep.

FFM's vote on me is shitty. He doesn't explain how what I'm doing is worse or any different than what most other people in this game are doing. This feels especially hypocritical when he himself doesn't give much of a read on anyone else whose posts he is not "picking away at". I also saw him looking at the thread after I made my original response and my response to bladescape. No answer to my question?

Makaze could be scum. I can see some scum intent in his posts and actions (and I'm still not sure if I buy the "reaction test"). The only reason I haven't voted him yet is that stupid nagging feeling that because he's new he could still be town with either terrible logic or way of getting things done.

Darros still owes me a response when he gets back to see this, and I still think his actions are scummy.

Paper feels strangely passive, like an observer and not really pushing and trying to get things done. It's setting off some alarm bells for me, but the passivity is all I have.

Everyone else I'm either fine with so far or hasn't posted enough for me to have an actual read on them.

##Unvote

##Vote: FFM

Darros can wait for now. FFM singling out one player for something others are doing and dodging my response when he has seen it and was looking at the thread is questionable.

Also, if you're going to make comments about players then you'd better be able to back them up. You called Darros slightly defensive in RVS and his unvote weird. But is he scummy? Are you going to give Makaze and Walrein complete passes just because they're newbies? (Is Walrein even a newbie to mafia or just new to SF?) Why does Junko feel town? You sound noncommittal in your "reads", are too quick to dismiss new players doing things that are suspicious just because they're new, and barely explained shit. That is scummy.

(Don't give players a complete pass just because they're new! There's a very big difference in saying, "a player is new, so even though they're doing scummy thing I won't hold it against them" and "I find what this player is doing scummy, but they're new and right now I don't know how to call it". You appear to be doing the former, which is a big NO.)

[Sunwoo]

What I'm getting at is that it's odd that you've given an in-depth read of those three while giving short opinions on everybody else. Call it a gut-read if you must.

This is not odd, FFM. Most of the game has not had many, if at all, posts of substance. I'm not going to give in-depth reads of who I think is town. I'm not outing who I think is town in the first place at this stage. So why is it so weird that I'm giving in-depth reads on people who are doing the most things of interest and giving short opinions on people who are either not doing anything currently, haven't done much of substance, or I'm okay with?

You would also be capable of making an accurate estimation of the amount of townies/scum/solo players if you were scum.

Town or scum or ITP, numbers is a ROLE. It's not limited by alignment. My role claim can be confirmed without me having to be necessarily town.

Also, try to think please. If I'm scum and I'm NOT numbers, why would I bullshit random numbers just to make a "believable" claim? The MOMENT my numbers are proven wrong I am immediately drawn into attention that as scum I would not want. You do not fake claim numbers if you have no idea what numbers are.

Second, even if I were scum, that does not mean I have knowledge of whether there is a THIRD PARTY. They're actually not all that common in games. Saying, "yeah, there is a third party" pretty much means that if there is no evidence of a third party then I am also going to paint a target on myself. A target I don't want as scum.

Third, if for some reason I was scum who wanted to fake numbers I didn't have, wouldn't it make more sense to give less specific numbers, such as "there are X people aligned/not aligned with town" instead of being so specific? The more specific the numbers, the less room for deviation you have. So if I was trying to fake numbers I didn't have, why would I lock myself into something so specific?

(Also, something I forgot to out in my initial post. The flavor for my numbers highly implied that the third party in this game is hostile.)

[FrostyFireMage]

For the record, I didn't vote Darros despite finding him rather suspicious because he was already accumulating votes, and I wanted to contribute without making a sheepy vote that would get us nowhere.

I'll see if I can contribute more later when I'm more focused.

[CT075]

(i'm literally only here for the next five minutes and i really don't feel like covering three pages worth of stuff while phoneposting)

It is fishing for reactions from people who act strangely.

RED FLAGS

I'm fine with reaction testing but on one condition:

Tell me exactly what you were expecting and then tell me what actually came of it.

[CT075]

be specific as possible

[BBM]

fwiw Boron's numbers claim is townie in this context because 12/3/1 is not a "standard" numbers split for a 16p game; I would expect 12/4 or 11/4/1 even, depending on town strength. So I feel like telling town of this is a legitimate reason for a town Numbers (most scum Numbers are just shoehorned in for an easy scum fake). It tells us that we can expect a fairly strong scumteam, rolewise.

##Unvote, ##Vote: FFM

Junko looks okay for now. FFM's vote on Boron sucks because I don't see what's scummy about talking about "only" three people at this stage of the game. In fact FFM himself actually only finds Boron, Darros, and Walrein suspicious, because even though he talks a little about Junko, he says to me that Junko just looks like a clumsy townie. Don't like the way the Boron vote is worded either, votes that are in that "forgive me for this" way of speech just ping me.

Paperblade is being way too passive but somehow I feel like if he was scum he wouldn't so blatantly just sheep Prims, and at least try to give his own reasoning for the vote. I expect him to pick up his game soon though.

[BBM]

For the record, I didn't vote Darros despite finding him rather suspicious because he was already accumulating votes, and I wanted to contribute without making a sheepy vote that would get us nowhere.

I'll see if I can contribute more later when I'm more focused.

this post sounds self-conscious also

[Psych]

I don't find Sangyul scummy for just focusing on 3 people this early in the game. Trying to get reads on every single person before N1 can be hard, and I kind of do the same thing. Once someone's been lynched and I can see everyone's actions and attitudes is usually when I finally get a read on some of the more lurkier people. Now if this was later in the game that'd be a different thing, but I don't think he's scummy for this.

Pascal seemed like he just wanted to throw suspicion on Sangyul, and then decided to back off and used an excuse to come back later.

[FrostyFireMage]

Sigh. Since everything I ever do ever is "scummy" (hoping on a popular wagon? sheepy and therefore scummy! not hoping on any popular wagons? contrary and therefore scummy!) I guess I better attempt to make a comprehensive post by checking everything before I'm the target of a mislynch.

Nexus huh? That's one I haven't played with before.

##Unvote

As it has already been said, Darros' vote/unvote in RVS was pretty sus. However, it WAS RVS, and I can't see scum back-tracking in RVS and risking becoming the point of contention, especially since hardly anyone makes serious votes in RVS. Darros would know this.

Very well; this person was merely prodding.

Strange how he just let it slide like that after pulling attention to it. Not overly scummy though.

but then why vote in the first place if you plan to just backdown later on?

Junko here should know about the RVS and that there really wasn't anything to go on otherwise. Feels like he was trying to heap suspicion on Darros. If it were anything but RVS this would be more scummy.

##unvote
##vote junko

you've been playing here long enough to get how rvs works, what are you jumping on darros for

Jumping on Junko in RVS for jumping on Darros in RVS? hypocritical much?

##vote: cam

what's wrong with NOT voting Darros huh

in fact I'll do it myself

##Unvote, ##Vote: Darros

joke post, moving on

Paper, why do you cut down the forest?

(Why are you defending a potential mafioso's actions?)

@Cam: He never switched votes, but your out of nowhere call out is the least natural thing I've seen thus far.

##Unvote: Junko

##Vote: Cam

how is it "the least natural thing"? how was it any different to what Junko was doing?

First of all, I'm assuming Darros is Poliwrath?

Secondly, I agree with the above poster in that while the unvote itself wasn't really all that suspect (though it was a bit premature), the fact that he left his vote on nobody makes it seem like he's trying to avoid pissing people off. In my experience, mafioso tend to try to avoid confrontation in an attempt to not get people mad enough to lynch them.

I also don't like how the only defense he's attempted is "it's RVS"

##Unvote

##Vote Poliwrath

Why did you choose not to vote for another user after unvoting?

kinda sheepy but he's new so eh

hmm I am not sure about darros. I actually disagree with the fact that we are voting darros because he didn't vote someone else because who could you vote at the time unless you mean an rvs vote. I agree that I was curious about his sudden unvote but him not voting someone else isn't really what I would call scummy at least in this point of the game.

you jumped on his case only to retract your statement shortly after?

sounds like something a eager newb townie would do in all honesty

between the two events that have occurred (events meaning things of interest), i feel like junko's actions are the worse of the two

Darros's empty unvote isn't particularly great but there isn't much reason for him to vote someone else (for both scum and town; the only thing I could possibly think of in either direction is "scum is more likely to place another vote so they can fit in" but that's extremely contrived and weaker than the other event)

Junko, on the other hand, makes a a pass at Darros (one that, at least to me, implies that Junko doesn't like it) but doesn't follow it up with a vote. Additionally, when accused, his only response is to get very defensive and say "but I didn't vote him" (without giving any context)

junko's defensiveness makes me think he is newbie town ever more

it feels like you're reading too much into his actions TBH

You can unvote your first RVS target and vote another person as a part of RVS. It's all about getting reactions and doing things to get the game into serious mode. The reason Darros not voting someone else looks bad to me is because it looks like he's being way too cautious. You don't need a reason to vote someone in RVS except to get a reaction. It looked like he had backed off Cam because of his claim and didn't try to contribute to RVS (or breaking out of it) anymore.

again, I think Darros wouldn't be so careless if he were scum, he knows how RVS works

Cam's vote makes sense if you use context clues. Furthermore your vote is a dead-end because you never explain why him calling out Junko is "unnatural". Are Cam's recent posts better, still scummy, what? I don't know because you stopped posting until I switched my vote to you.

Also, in what way did Paper defend a "potential mafioso"? How was the way he did it harmful? I don't see an explanation for another user's actions in his post.

As far as I'm concerned you're presenting an alternate version of the thread to attack things.

Prims does make some good points here. Would not vote/10

It's not just because he made an empty unvote, BBM. The way he unvoted Cam made it sound like he did so because of Cam's claim, and I feel that he tried too hard to justify his unvote. That in combination with merely taking his vote off Cam and not trying to do anything else with it bugs me because it looks like he's making a token contribution to RVS without actually trying to move the game along.

Also, I think Psych means me instead of Kay in post #45.

most people fool around in RVS, at least to my knowledge. I don't think RVS votes should be given much credit, personally

actually scratch that about not really having other reads. I kind of think Paperblade feels weird; his first post didn't really give me a sense whether he was joking or being serious and whether or not he actually thought anything was bad about Cam or Darros, and his second post doesn't give me any sense either of where he falls on Makaze. And actually Makaze was voting Cam iirc, so if Paperblade kind of lazily agreed there, why was his vote on Darros and not Cam? Last two posts are just a whatever misunderstanding.

I thought Paperblade always joked around. It didn't seem out of the ordinary for him to do something like that, to me anyway

fsr I thought junko and poly were the same dude

I feel like out of Darros/EDITS/Cam, Cam is most likely to be scum but it's not really a big lean any way, it's just "Well maybe he is scum trying to start something"

I don't think Darros or Edits did anything particularly bad, just did Not Optimal Things and Cam jumped on them

##Unvote, ##Vote: makaze since as I said I can see where Prims is coming from and the initial icebreak argument was Stupid

this is basically what I'm thinking, minus the Makaze vote (I do think makaze's "mafioso" statement was weird but nothing that important).

Boron, do you actually think Makaze and Darros are scum or are you just attacking them for making suboptimal plays?

This is basically the same reason why I thought Boron was being "nitpicky"

This is not odd, FFM. Most of the game has not had many, if at all, posts of substance. I'm not going to give in-depth reads of who I think is town. I'm not outing who I think is town in the first place at this stage. So why is it so weird that I'm giving in-depth reads on people who are doing the most things of interest and giving short opinions on people who are either not doing anything currently, haven't done much of substance, or I'm okay with?

Town or scum or ITP, numbers is a ROLE. It's not limited by alignment. My role claim can be confirmed without me having to be necessarily town.

Also, try to think please. If I'm scum and I'm NOT numbers, why would I bullshit random numbers just to make a "believable" claim? The MOMENT my numbers are proven wrong I am immediately drawn into attention that as scum I would not want. You do not fake claim numbers if you have no idea what numbers are.

Second, even if I were scum, that does not mean I have knowledge of whether there is a THIRD PARTY. They're actually not all that common in games. Saying, "yeah, there is a third party" pretty much means that if there is no evidence of a third party then I am also going to paint a target on myself. A target I don't want as scum.

Third, if for some reason I was scum who wanted to fake numbers I didn't have, wouldn't it make more sense to give less specific numbers, such as "there are X people aligned/not aligned with town" instead of being so specific? The more specific the numbers, the less room for deviation you have. So if I was trying to fake numbers I didn't have, why would I lock myself into something so specific?

(Also, something I forgot to out in my initial post. The flavor for my numbers highly implied that the third party in this game is hostile.)

Point taken. Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't think Darros/Junko/Makaze were scum and your posts seem nitpicky from my skimming the thread

##Unvote: Sangyul

##Vote: Cam

His vote on Junko felt like he was trying to take advantage of Junko's reaction to Darros' RVS escapade

[Elieson]

[spoiler=Have some ISOs]- BBM
- bladescape
- Boron
- Cam
- Darros
- FFM
- j00
- Junko
- Kay
- Makaze
- Paper
- Poly
- Prims
- Psych
- Shinori
- Walrein

[Psych]

##Unvote

just realized my vote was still on walrein and he has 3 votes

[Darros]

I hope you do all appreciate these ISOs!

BBM

bladescape

Boron/Sangyul

Cam/CT075

Darros/Poliwrath

FFM/Pascal

j00

DO NOT EDIT POSTS GUY/Junko

Kay

Makaze

Paperblade

Polydeuces

Prims

Psych

Shinori

Walrein

Realtalk coming soon I promise I just figured life would be easier with these so I can ref posts better.

[Darros]

Oh, it appears Eli beat me to the punch! That's just swell!

[Psych]

Shinori, Poly and j00 have barely posted, Shinori not even once

##Vote Shinori

[Darros]

Wow, I can't believe there's been 4 pages in the time I've been asleep! You guys don't fool around.

It's not just because he made an empty unvote, BBM. The way he unvoted Cam made it sound like he did so because of Cam's claim, and I feel that he tried too hard to justify his unvote. That in combination with merely taking his vote off Cam and not trying to do anything else with it bugs me because it looks like he's making a token contribution to RVS without actually trying to move the game along.

I unvoted because Cam posted, not because of his claim. I clearly stated that here. And when I justified my unvote, it was only because you and Walrein had asked me to. From what I've been told in the past, voting people who are not around is "a waste of a vote", and like I'd said, nobody was online that hadn't posted in the thread. So why would I put down a completely useless vote, especially when I was like an hour from bed anyway?

Darros hasn't posted much despite some pretty heavy targeting and the initial behavior I called out, and that's scummy.

I'm sorry, you must've not caught the post where I said I was going to bed. I'm on now and I'm trying to sort out this sticky wicket.

This sudden Unvote seemed pretty weird, especially since it was RVS and nobody really makes any committed votes/votes with serious intent.

Slightly defensive. In RVS, even.

Okay I get the unvote may have seemed weird but I at least explained it, could you bother to read that before you address that post without the follow up?

???????????

I was asked a question and I answered it?

Is answering questions defensive now? Have I missed some crazy new Mafia Meta 2k14 thing when I wasn't playing? If I have, someone please inform me.

Forgive my accusation (or don't, I don't care), or does it seem like Sangyul is mostly picking away at Junko/Darros/Makaze's posts without giving much of a read on anybody else?

##Unvote

##Vote: Sangyul

The game is 12/3/1. If she's scumreading me, Junko, Makaze, that's plenty fair. Outing town reads is completely uselss and counterintuitive, as it just gives the mafia targets to kill. Are you trying to fish here?

I don't think what Cam did was hypocritical at all. The point he made about Junko was completely valid! And to boot he was voting his scumread while Junko wasn't. I don't think Junko was outright scummy by not voting but it is worth noting, but what Cam did wasn't hypocritical.

Reads up in next post. I want to go through the ISOs I just got ninja'd on!

Also where the hell is Shinori?

[Darros]

Um Psych, this isn't really the time for a prod vote...

[Darros]

I'm reading bladescape a little oddly, but it's hard to do so after one post. He accused Boron of not reading, then placed a vote without justification ((you can infer that FFM highlighted the reasons but that's kind of implicit)). The reads that FFM gave weren't town/scum, they seemed to be more focused on creating activity instead. But it's hard to say something over one post so I'll be more keeping an eyes on this guy.

I'm feeling mostly bad about FFM, deja vu eh? I find it just out of left field that he wants Borons townreads out, townreads are not something town wants. It just screams fishing to me. There are 3 mafia members, Boron has 3 reads on people she thinks might be mafia. It lines up, so I don't really understand the point FFM is trying to make unless it was fishing!

Psych is also sticking out, for having suspicion on FFM, then voting Shinori of all people who hasn't posted. We get it, not posting is bad, but this isn't the time for a prod, if he vegges let Shin/SB take care of it. If you have suspicions, follow them through! We're at the point of the game past RVS where suspicions can actually be taken seriously.


I'd have to push for FFM though among the three. I honestly hate having to do this because every single time I ever play mafia with FFM I think he's scum and so far he's never been but his actions aren't lining up.
##Vote: FFM

[Shin]

"Did you hear about that mugging in the park? It be a roight ol' fuss, it is. I heard a geezer was just minding his own business and a lad offered him a shoe shine. Turned out he shined more than his shoes mind you! I figure he was after some dosh, but the fella only had five quid on him! Kids today, the little buggers need to show some respect! I blame the parents, I do, a good knock on the noggin would set the little terrors straight!"

Darros (3): Walrein, Makaze, bladescape

FFM (2): Boron, Darros

Makaze (2): Prims, Paperblade

Shinori (2): Junko, Psych

Boron (1): Poly

Cam (1): FFM

Junko (1): Cam, BBM

Walrein (1): j00

Big Ben tells us there are 52 and a half hours remaining! The phase ends on 12/6 23:00 GMT+0! Remember, 6 is needed to lynch, 10 is a hammer!

[Makaze]

"Did you hear about that mugging in the park? It be a roight ol' fuss, it is. I heard a geezer was just minding his own business and a lad offered him a shoe shine. Turned out he shined more than his shoes mind you! I figure he was after some dosh, but the fella only had five quid on him! Kids today, the little buggers need to show some respect! I blame the parents, I do, a good knock on the noggin would set the little terrors straight!"

Darros (3): Walrein, Makaze, bladescape

FFM (2): Boron, Darros

Makaze (2): Prims, Paperblade

Shinori (2): Junko, Psych

Boron (1): Poly

Cam (1): FFM

Junko (1): Cam, BBM

Walrein (1): j00

Big Ben tells us there are 52 and a half hours remaining! The phase ends on 12/6 23:00 GMT+0! Remember, 6 is needed to lynch, 10 is a hammer!

BBM voted for FFM, not Junko.

(i'm literally only here for the next five minutes and i really don't feel like covering three pages worth of stuff while phoneposting)

RED FLAGS

I'm fine with reaction testing but on one condition:

Tell me exactly what you were expecting and then tell me what actually came of it.

be specific as possible

It was too early to really expect anything, but I expected you to get defensive; you did not, which was good. I also misread your post (as stated previously). I thought that at worst you were mudslinging on Junko for voting on Darros (which he didn't), and at best you were being an idiot and I could figure out which it was by prodding you. Turns out I was the idiot because all you said was that he 'jumped on' Darros, which gets rid of my original reason for suspicion full stop. It wasn't a strong suspicion in the first place, but it was all I had.

You could have learned this by reading my ISO. I've already explained it a few times.

Got a fresh look at the thread and FFM has said some very strange things. As Sangyul pointed out, they called her out and voted her outside of RVS on a bad reason. When their reasoning was countered, they jumped right off of the vote and onto Cam, who had not been on their list of reads at all until the post where they voted them out of nowhere. Their reasoning was extremely flimsy there.

Sangyul's explanation of her role more or less clears my doubts, but Darros is still looking scummy for that defensive behavior early game.

FFM has more reason to vote me or Darros than Cam or Sangyul. Going into some Meta, they have a weird habit of tunneling town instead of reading the people already getting heat for no apparent reason. Pascal is scummy either way I look at it, but given the meta, what's the context? If they are scum, why aren't they voting Darros despite scum reads? They are sheeping other peoples' reads on him but going after people they has mere hunches on instead. I don't think they are both scum because Darros couldn't afford to bus on his scumbuddy this early.

I am reading Pascal as scum now for, as hypocritical as it sounds, the reason Sangyul has a read on me: They did a lot of noncommital prodding or reaction tests. The really telling bit is that they did not vote their strongest reads but instead put pressure on people they were not confident about. When I voted for/tested Cam, he was my strongest read because we were in RVS and he was the only who did something strange. Pascal has ample content and is still goose chasing his 'maybes' even out of RVS.

I am keeping my vote for now because despite this content, this play is consistent with my limited knowledge of Pascal's town meta, while what Darros has done, from the defensive early game to voting FFM for erratic voting, all fits under scum intent rather than simple anti-town behavior like what Pascal has been doing.

As for others, I would like to see some more content. Prims and Paperblade, can I please get your reads on Darros, FFM and Sangyul?

[Shinori]

Gonna read stuffs.

[j00]

Just came back from a really really long day and I'm gonna read all this stuff but that'll be after I check the internet for what was announced at E3 today

[Darros]

Just came back from a really really long day and I'm gonna read all this stuff but that'll be after I check the internet for what was announced at E3 today

You're in for some exciting stuff let me tell you

[j00]

But I didn't want miis in SSB4

[Makaze]

Can you please post about this game?

The mafia are keeping me from my Walden as we speak.