British Mafia - Game Over! Britain Wins!

[Darros]

hmm i would say the reason for bbm switching me from scum to null is meh. effort isn't really determining of someones alignment whatsoever.

Might be meta. Some people are a lot lazier as scum/town. I'll let BBM speak for himself though. I'm mostly referring to the last sentence in your post.

[BBM]

It's not just effort as such; it's the change from making a big deal about one small thing and focusing on it to talking about other stuff. Not really sure how to explain it more than that; I got scumvibes from the first few posts and stopped doing so after that.

Makaze- why is there only scum intent in what Darros did? You're talking like town are never cautious with their votes, which isn't true.

[CT075]

I'm going to bed now. If I keep on getting voted I'm totally subbing out.

if people keep voting you, you won't have to sub out! yay, everyone's happy!

as I explained in an earlier post

this is the part where i start throwing in little ^{[citation needed]} signs because half the time you've said "go read my ISO" i've been unable to find it

gonna quotewall in a little bit

[Prims]

is makaze dead yet

[Junk]

I can definitely see why people might see psych as scum. His shinori vote was really terrible and he still isn't even voting for FFM when his posts definitely imply that he suspects FFM of being up to no good. This may sound really stupid but psych was that post "bbm r u scum" serious? Psych do you have any definite scumreads? I believe someone made a point of psych not actually addressing the reason for being voted which is true, his next part of the post proceeds to say how there might be alot of kills but doesn't ask questions scumhunt whatsoever.

Also kind of ehh on makaze's defense because I feel it forces us to think whether he would have done this as scum or not which imo just leads to baseless speculation. Makaze you seem to have far more reason to vote FFM but dismiss him because meta? Your Darros case seems to rely on the fact that he unvoted then voted FFM when he started to act scummy. What about you scumreading FFM when he started to act scummy despite never scumreading him before?

Very well; this person was merely prodding.

this post seems to imply that you had come to terms with darros and decided it was NOT a scummy move but then all of a sudden you are scumreading him based on that same move?

[Sunwoo]

Prims, do you have any opinion on what's been going on in this game?

[Prims]

no

[Prims]

@Boron: Why is FFM's badcase scummy? You just said his actions are "questionable" which is a buzzword. Why is he scum and not town with bad logic? I don't see scum!FFM forcing this case; it reads to me like he got a gut read on you and couldn't explain it well.

@Psych: If FFM is scummy, why did you go for a prodvote over him? Reads like scum scared of stirring the waters by wagon hopping.

@BBM: You're posting like you do when you're scum just fyi.

Paper is doing this thing where he goes "welp i have a serious vote down time to ignore the person i'm voting and not do anything" and it's a scummy thing.

##Unvote

##Vote: Paperblade

Would not lynch FFM. Attitude problem needs to stop though.

Makaze's responses have been OK enough that I don't feel like continuing to push the case. If anything he seems like a townie who did a Questionable Thing early on because he was new. Would reconsider later down the road, but not interested in lynching him today.

[CT075]

This is the same response I gave last game. I pressure the first person to make an out of the ordinary move. The first to stand out gets my vote every time. If you have a reason why I should not press forward with even the slightest reasons, please tell me. My last mentor did not give much advice about this.

pressure is useless unless you have an idea of what in particular is going to come of it

From my perspective, I had already left RVS by seeing who stood out, even a little.

The phrase "leaving RVS" is typically applied to the game as a whole, not individual players

You can be as not-RVS as you like, but if you don't say anything (idrc whether this is the case for this game), that is anti-town, because until someone begins discussion, the town is essentially whiling away the hours with nothing

Something has been bothering me about your confidence and tunneling on a lead I started. From my perspective, I should look worse than Darros. Why haven't you voted me yet, Sangyul?

confidence (to me) is honestly a nulltell

Scum can fake confidence more easily because (ITP notwithstanding) they know everyone's alignment. At the same time, not being super confident makes it easier for scum to back out and mess with their reads

The latter part of this ("from my perspective...") is also fairly useless because it can be responded to with "because I'm not looking at things from your perspective"; at best it's just that (useless), at worst it's fishing for role information.

In fact, most of my actions are reaction tests.

Put your money where your mouth is and tell me exactly what tests you've run, how you expected your target to react (and what that would have meant) and how they (and others) actually reacted (+ what that meant)

I am wary of anyone labelling their actions willy-nilly as "reaction tests" because it gives scum an easy out- "oh what I did was scummy but i knew that i was just reaction testing"

Sigh. Since everything I ever do ever is "scummy" (hoping on a popular wagon? sheepy and therefore scummy! not hoping on any popular wagons? contrary and therefore scummy!) I guess I better attempt to make a comprehensive post by checking everything before I'm the target of a mislynch.

you make it sound so simple lol

As it has already been said, Darros' vote/unvote in RVS was pretty sus. However, it WAS RVS, and I can't see scum back-tracking in RVS and risking becoming the point of contention, especially since hardly anyone makes serious votes in RVS.

fair

Darros would know this.

ngl i used pretty much this exact line of reasoning but i really don't like how meta this statement is

letting it slide because in context it's as good a reason as anything

Junko here should know about the RVS and that there really wasn't anything to go on otherwise. Feels like he was trying to heap suspicion on Darros. If it were anything but RVS this would be more scummy.

WHy does it being in RVS make it less scummy?

This line is also especially waffly now that I think of it

Jumping on Junko in RVS for jumping on Darros in RVS? hypocritical much?

you literally just agreed with me that junko mudslinging at darros was bad

sounds like something a eager newb townie would do in all honesty

junko's defensiveness makes me think he is newbie town ever more

explain

it feels like you're reading too much into his actions TBH

##Unvote: Sangyul

##Vote: Cam

His vote on Junko felt like he was trying to take advantage of Junko's reaction to Darros' RVS escapade

I saw something going on and I called it.

Shinori, Poly and j00 have barely posted, Shinori not even once

##Vote Shinori

You could have learned this by reading my ISO. I've already explained it a few times.

^{[citation needed]}

I don't see you explaining what you intended to get out of pressuring me anywhere

Got a fresh look at the thread and FFM has said some very strange things. As Sangyul pointed out, they called her out and voted her outside of RVS on a bad reason. When their reasoning was countered, they jumped right off of the vote and onto Cam, who had not been on their list of reads at all until the post where they voted them out of nowhere. Their reasoning was extremely flimsy there.

fine

Sangyul's explanation of her role more or less clears my doubts, but Darros is still looking scummy for that defensive behavior early game.

FFM has more reason to vote me or Darros than Cam or Sangyul.

Why? Do you know something I don't?

Going into some Meta, they have a weird habit of tunneling town instead of reading the people already getting heat for no apparent reason. Pascal is scummy either way I look at it, but given the meta, what's the context?

Hold up- how do you know that the person that FFM is tunneling on at the moment is town? Yes, history may show that FFM has a habit of being wrong, but without flips (and this holds true for the other games I've seen FFM in) all I know is that FFM just tends to look at people who aren't under suspicion (something I can see the town motivation in, even if it's usually misguided).

They are sheeping other peoples' reads on him but going after people they has mere hunches on instead. I don't think they are both scum because Darros couldn't afford to bus on his scumbuddy this early.

Other than the bolded I'm fine with the reasoning (even if I drew a different conclusion)

As town, we don't know everything. As such, making blanket claims like "scum can't afford to bus each other this early" aren't helpful because, even if they're true fundamentally, for all we know there are some shenanigans going on that we can't see.

Even so, I would also disagree that the two voting for each other (i cbf to remember if they are) would really constitute bussing; there isn't any lynch pressure on Darros and the risk of actually lynching FFM right now is pretty low. It's entirely possible for a scumteam to throw suspicion on each other earlygame, then back off for some bullshit reasons

##Unvote Shinori

idk why i was scummy for voting shinori, especially considering most of the arguements today

"my vote on shinori is fine all the arguments against it suck"

> proceeds to unvote shinori

if the numbers claimed 12/3/1 and the third party is an sk instead of something like a survivor, that just feels like a lot of kills possible. giving the sk a nexus and the possiblity of a vig or something in town makes me really concerned about the possible amount of kills in a short amount of time

wtf does this even mean

do you know something we don't??? this is just pointless rolespec

Would be okay with lynching Makaze or FFM just because the ragepost sucked and idw deal with it; my reads on Junko haven't changed much either (didn't address him much in this post because there wasn't really much for me to respond to)

[Prims]

Prims and Paperblade, can I please get your reads on Darros, FFM and Sangyul?

I was leaning scum on Darros' ED1 posts but wanted him to post more. What he has posted since hasn't impressed me so I suppose I'd sheep the wagon but I don't feel strongly about it. Would appreciate him explaining why he chose to vote FFM over Psych.

FFM is pretty blatantly town.

Boron is a neutral read. I don't agree with her vote on FFM but I'm not yet certain it comes from scum. Would look into if she lived too long.

btw I agree with Junko about BBM's reasons for giving up the case, only I don't think it's tied to effort so much as BBM being scum handwaving a case he's having trouble continuing to push. @BBM: how were Junko's posts more indicative of effort than FFM's huge quotewall in response to being voted?

[CT075]

holy shit that is a lot of posts

cbf to read more rn thoug

[Makaze]

if people keep voting you, you won't have to sub out! yay, everyone's happy!

this is the part where i start throwing in little ^{[citation needed]} signs because half the time you've said "go read my ISO" i've been unable to find it

gonna quotewall in a little bit

Citation granted:

... Pascal is scummy either way I look at it, but given the meta, what's the context? If they are scum, why aren't they voting Darros despite scum reads? They are sheeping other peoples' reads on him but going after people they has mere hunches on instead. I don't think they are both scum because Darros couldn't afford to bus on his scumbuddy this early.

It's not just effort as such; it's the change from making a big deal about one small thing and focusing on it to talking about other stuff. Not really sure how to explain it more than that; I got scumvibes from the first few posts and stopped doing so after that.

Makaze- why is there only scum intent in what Darros did? You're talking like town are never cautious with their votes, which isn't true.

Well, I don't see any benefit for a town. It's not as if there was a threat of a mislynch from his vote. If it were me, I wouldn't have changed my vote until I had something to gain by doing so. What did he have to gain by unvoting as town? That was my reasoning... For questioning him initially, at least. What rekindled my suspicion on that was how he acted with the FFM antics.

[Psych]

I can definitely see why people might see psych as scum. His shinori vote was really terrible and he still isn't even voting for FFM when his posts definitely imply that he suspects FFM of being up to no good. This may sound really stupid but psych was that post "bbm r u scum" serious? Psych do you have any definite scumreads? I believe someone made a point of psych not actually addressing the reason for being voted which is true, his next part of the post proceeds to say how there might be alot of kills but doesn't ask questions scumhunt whatsoever.

Are you talking about me not addressing myself being voted? I never really do that. I don't know what you mean otherwise. I don't find Pascal scummy, so to say, but I don't like his attitude and other stuff though that feels mostly like a newbie reaction for now. He, Junko, and Darros are just rubbing me the wrong way right now. Darros I was defending earlier, but since then I haven't liked his arguements and the fact he seems more worried about other people's activity/vote placement as opposed to their logic or reads.

@Boron: Why is FFM's badcase scummy? You just said his actions are "questionable" which is a buzzword. Why is he scum and not town with bad logic? I don't see scum!FFM forcing this case; it reads to me like he got a gut read on you and couldn't explain it well.

@Psych: If FFM is scummy, why did you go for a prodvote over him? Reads like scum scared of stirring the waters by wagon hopping.

@BBM: You're posting like you do when you're scum just fyi.

Paper is doing this thing where he goes "welp i have a serious vote down time to ignore the person i'm voting and not do anything" and it's a scummy thing.

##Unvote

##Vote: Paperblade

Would not lynch FFM. Attitude problem needs to stop though.

Makaze's responses have been OK enough that I don't feel like continuing to push the case. If anything he seems like a townie who did a Questionable Thing early on because he was new. Would reconsider later down the road, but not interested in lynching him today.

Just cause I said I didn't like what Pascal was doing at the time didn't mean I found him scummy then. I might now, but I mostly just feel he's being naive and using OMGUS.

[Sunwoo]

@Boron: Why is FFM's badcase scummy? You just said his actions are "questionable" which is a buzzword. Why is he scum and not town with bad logic? I don't see scum!FFM forcing this case; it reads to me like he got a gut read on you and couldn't explain it well.

His case is scummy partly because of the hypocrisy of his reasoning on the vote (especially considering that his own "reads" that he gave in the same post were pretty waffly+unelaborated), and the lack of explanation on why this thing that I'm doing is so much different than what other people who were present in the thread were doing or so much worse. When called out on it, he didn't even answer the part about "how is this different/worse than what other people are doing".

The logic on my numbers claim, or lack thereof, reads to me like scum desperately trying to discredit a role that they think may "clear" a person when numbers as a role is a fuck all in alignment tell. FFM's last game literally had a numbers claim, so he knows that this role exists and what it does.

Also, the way he stopped voting me and jumped onto Cam, whom he'd barely mentioned, looks like scum jumping off an unpopular vote after getting a lot of flak for it. Plus, his vote on Cam isn't even good. The AtE in "everything I do is scummy" and his threat to ragequit also does not read town to me. It looks like he's trying to guilt people/threaten them into not voting him anymore. I don't really understand why getting frustrated and ragequtting is "town". It's not an alignment tell as a whole, not really. On the contrary, this behavior is more tied to SPECIFIC PLAYERS and not one alignment in general.

[CT075]

oh yeah shinori's huge wallotext^TM without links to referenced posts was terrible to read would lynch 10/10

[Sunwoo]

Psych, where is your vote? If you have people who "rub you the wrong way" why aren't you pressuring them?

[Darros]

I was leaning scum on Darros' ED1 posts but wanted him to post more. What he has posted since hasn't impressed me so I suppose I'd sheep the wagon but I don't feel strongly about it. Would appreciate him explaining why he chose to vote FFM over Psych.

Psych was more lurking and not contributing and making useless prod votes and not posting content, while FFM was doing antitown activity by trying to out peoples townreads. It's annoying because this isn't the first time he's done it, he's done it before and flipped town. Either he's scum or he really doesn't get that public townreads = bad.

[Makaze]

^{[citation needed]}

Citations granted:

At that point, Cam had made a mistake. Not only had he called someone out in RVS, which no one else had done, but he did it on a false claim. He has yet to address this mistake.

There is not enough content to vote for anyone else.

In summary, I don't read him very strongly, but still more strongly than anyone else.

Aaaah. The mistake was mine. I read that post as saying 'voting on Darros'.

This is what I get for coding all day. I need to take a walk through the ISOs.

And now that I'm done...

This is the same response I gave last game. I pressure the first person to make an out of the ordinary move. The first to stand out gets my vote every time.

I'm getting the message that I am bad at the game here, not that I am scum. I cannot give any reasons I have not stated because I don't have them. If you aren't satisfied, that is unfortunate; my reasons for my pressuring have all been shallow and you will probably stay that way until/unless I can contribute something actually helpful. Most of my time this game has been spent answering posts like yours.

@Prims: What has Psych done that draws scrutiny?

[Darros]

I'm getting the message that I am bad at the game here, not that I am scum. I cannot give any reasons I have not stated because I don't have them. If you aren't satisfied, that is unfortunate; my reasons for my pressuring have all been shallow and you will probably stay that way until/unless I can contribute something actually helpful. Most of my time this game has been spent answering posts like yours.

RED ALERT

This doesn't sit well with me at all. Cam is saying what you're doing is scummy and you're handwaving your own actions with "oh im bad at the game then" and purposefully misrepping Cam. He said you're scummy, not that you're bad at the game. Putting words in other peoples mouths is not good. You're allowed to contribute more than answering questions if you so desire, you're allowed to post more than just answers in a single post. If you have more to say, say it.

[CT075]

other than a few logic things (wrt which i really hope i never called that scummy because bad logic isn't scummy) my problems with makaze consist almost entirely on the "reaction testing" (i might have had more but i cbf to look up my notes and that was the biggest part)

Probably the biggest request I want fulfilled is the one in response to "almost everything I do is a reaction test", I can pull it up if people can't find it

[Psych]

Psych, where is your vote? If you have people who "rub you the wrong way" why aren't you pressuring them?

Rubbing me the wrong way doesn't mean they're on my scummy side. We have around 48 hours left, why do I have to have a vote down right now?

I'm gonna call it quits early tonight though, i'm exhausted.

[Sunwoo]

Rubbing me the wrong way doesn't mean they're on my scummy side. We have around 48 hours left, why do I have to have a vote down right now?

I'm gonna call it quits early tonight though, i'm exhausted.

If they're not on your scummy side, is there anyone you suspect at all right now? Anyone you want answers from? Why does it feel like you're not trying to really participate in the game?

Makaze's last post about "I'm getting the message that I am bad at the game, not scum" does not sit well with me. It feels like he's trying to discredit Cam while making an excuse for his actions. Also, people can be bad at the game and scum.

Feeling worse about Psych at this point.

[Makaze]

RED ALERT

This doesn't sit well with me at all. Cam is saying what you're doing is scummy and you're handwaving your own actions with "oh im bad at the game then" and purposefully misrepping Cam. He said you're scummy, not that you're bad at the game. Putting words in other peoples mouths is not good. You're allowed to contribute more than answering questions if you so desire, you're allowed to post more than just answers in a single post. If you have more to say, say it.

Let me clarify: Nothing I have done makes sense as scum. At worst, it just doesn't make sense. I'm really tired of repeating myself about the same first two or three posts. As such, the message I am getting is this: "YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE DONE THOSE THINGS," repeatedly. Message gotten. No more reasons for those things I did will be forthcoming because as has been pointed out by just about everyone here, my reasons were bad. You know my reasons. They were bad reasons. Nothing is coming from rehashing how bad they were. I thought they were fine when I thought of them.

Is that scummy? Well then, we'll see what turns up if I get mislynched. I am wasting town's time by becoming such a target. You could be spending your time on more important people. As town, I am a liability.

I don't have anything to contribute beyond what I have already given.

Here's something to think on. If I were scum, I would ask my more experienced scum partners how I could remedy my situation. You can be sure that no matter who they are, they would not be happy with how I am acting now. Why am I still acting this way?

In summary, as town, I am wasting everyone's time by acting scummy. As mafia, I am a liability to the minority, who needs me to live.

I am playing badly objectively no matter what my alignment is. There is no handwaving to be done when what I said it true no matter who I play for.

I don't have the time or incentive to defend these actions further. I can only point to my intent, because I know the actions themselves are bad.

[Darros]

But you'd make a post like that as either alignment, it's not like you're going to admit you're scum... Playing badly does not make you townie! There's a chance that you could play badly and your scum partners would just use it as an excuse to bus you. It's not like what you're doing really makes sense as town either. By saying "I'm wasting towns time as a target" it sounds like youre trying to get a target off yourself without actually defending anything. "I'm town so don't target me" is not a defense.

Self meta is terrible anyway. Ugh.

[Darros]

Like "I wouldn't do this as scum" makes you look no better in my eyes, if anything it makes you look worse because that's often what scum players say.