School of Hard NOCs (take 2) - Game over!

[Rapier]

Why is Shinori worse than ScarletFlame, who you're completely ignoring?

I didn't even remember they existed.

[MRDRHAWK]

Okay so I skimmed Rapier's ISO quick just now, very little to actually go on wheeeeeeeeeeee

I agree with the point that Rapier made a bad call on his vote of J over Mancer late, especially when J was actually not looking super scummy IMO. Also note that Prims continually went with the idea that J was scum as well, so perhaps Prims was planning on lining up MLs with the Mancer towncred with Rapier support for a while?

Rapier also seemed really focused on tone as well, which is something I'm not really getting. Why would the tone matter so much that it influences your vote, especially when your other reasons for voting J at the time amounted to a lower amount of content?

I'd rather lynch Shinori to eliminate the noise, so we can have a clearer read of the game later on.

This is also really bad, since it's a super lazy reason to lynch someone when he actually have a number of cases going around. What makes an inactive worse than, say, J (who you cased yesterday) or, well, anyone else who actually posts?

##Unvote

##Vote: Rapier

What sucks about this is that we can't get any associative reads off him if he flips scum, aside from maybe J being town(ier).

[MRDRHAWK]

Also I'm kind of leery on Gorf, they seem all over the place and not really making any significant points on anything outside of his (semi?) case on Elie. I do like his response to my earlier question wrt town!Randa, so there is that, but I dunno. PoE sucks and I can't get a read on anyone else.

Gun to my head, 4th scum is probably within the pool of Gorf/Randa (no, I'm still not TRing him, but I'm not very confident in this read either)/lurkers/maybe Elie or Refa?

Not sure on ITP yet. Maybe J, maybe Refa/Elie, not sure on anyone else that could be here.

BT/SB/BBM are towniest IMO.

[MRDRHAWK]

Actually, I totally forgot about Elie's patented weird-ass D1 reaction test. He seemed a bit more defensive about it than usual when SB pressed him about it, and that struck me as weird. He also didn't really commit to a scumread throughout D1, bouncing back and forth on inconsequential wagons (BBM in a semi-RVS vote, then a prodvote on Navel and finally Prims).

Forget the part about 4th scum, I'm leaning Elie over everyone else for that. I understand the lower levels of contribution, but what he has done isn't particularly good in any facet. If not him, probably Gorf or Randa (if he's ballsy enough to push on a buddy for towncred the way he did, kinda leaning no on that just because Prims did it too).

[charlie_]

Using amazing associative reads without flips (worked day 1 10/10) makes me think Rapier is just Scarlet's buddy and is ignoring him because he kind of has to while sitting on the easiest vote he can make. He also went after J over Mancer D1 and semi-buddied Prims while not really giving a read on him, so yeah.

[Rapier]

Rapier also seemed really focused on tone as well, which is something I'm not really getting. Why would the tone matter so much that it influences your vote, especially when your other reasons for voting J at the time amounted to a lower amount of content?

This is also really bad, since it's a super lazy reason to lynch someone when he actually have a number of cases going around. What makes an inactive worse than, say, J (who you cased yesterday) or, well, anyone else who actually posts?

Maybe because tone matters when reading someone? Also, low content was one of my motives to vote him lol, and his shift of attention to those who were particularly on his wagon was also strange, because it seemed as if he only bothered to read these players because they voted him, and not because he wanted to scumhunt.

Also, you should read my ISO again. I explicitely said that I don't find J scummy anymore, so there is no point in making a case on someone who I find town.

Being super lazy is not indicative of scumminess. Isn't it also lazy to vote someone based on laziness? Your content so far has been to question semiobvtown players such as Randa instead of scumhunting the rest of the playerbase, so I don't see how different you are from me?

[Rapier]

Poly makes me want to watch Kill la Kill but it is more fanservicey than hentai implying I watched one before nghh

Using amazing associative reads without flips (worked day 1 10/10) makes me think Rapier is just Scarlet's buddy and is ignoring him because he kind of has to while sitting on the easiest vote he can make. He also went after J over Mancer D1 and semi-buddied Prims while not really giving a read on him, so yeah.

Well, at least Scarlet was there for the Mancer lynch and we can draw associative reads from it, as we have already done. The same can't be said about Shinori, though. Hence why I prefer a Shinori lynch over a Scarlet lynch, since I believe this will be a long term benefit for the town when we are on MYLO and incapable of reading him.

The rest of the playerbase seems town to me. Refa's the only one who slightly warns me because he defended Mancer during D1, but otherwise he's doing fine. SB is being his usual self. Elie seems more dettached from the game for some reason, and I can't draw conclusions from his play just yet. BBM did pursue Mancer during D1 (if memory serves, he was the first one to vote him), so he's also okay in my books. Poly suddenly decided to be active in the game and I can't draw any associative reads from him since his activity on D1 was zero (just as mine), so idk.

[Rapier]

My pecking order currently is Shinobi > Miss Scarlet > multiplegods > Elie > Refa or SB > BBM. When I am feeling less lazy I may (not) read said players' isos (with the exception of those who have no isos, like the first two players) and then I may (not) elaborate better reads on them.

[charlie_]

I have drawn associative reads from it and they are: that he is scum. He was barely around and you're saying "oh we can get associative reads from this" and then are ignoring them completely.

[Rapier]

We can get associative reads from him but they're so minimal that they don't matter.

[charlie_]

Why will we be capable of reading Shinori instead of Scarlet at *YLO? If anything Shinori is an easier read when he does post so I don't even know what you're trying to say.

[BBM]

he's trying to say he's buddies with scarletflame

makes you think

[Shinori]

I'm reading now and gonna start posting and shiz.

[Shinori]

I actually stopped my read on page 23 cause of something I saw rapier post and it's at the bototm of this post. Actually something similar was stated by someone else as well. BUT NOT TO THE EXTENT OF RAPIER.

That was a premature post. Anyways like I intended to say, I felt that based on interactions with mancer there was a chance of scum!prims I didn't think Prims would be dead so I guess that question got answered still kinda surprised I was rightish cause I was a bit wishy-washy.
Anyways on to why I think BT is scum. It's like I said yesterday the re-iteration of the case against mancer seemed unprovoked to me. There didn't seem to be a whole lot of reason for it, unlike Refa who seems to have been doing it more so to convince himself mancer was scum, this seemed more to make the appearance of having a true scum read on mancer. Does that even make sense? Anyways the whole Prims interaction helps me to support this theory. It seems more like BT was nitpicking the finer points of Prims discussion and trying to construe all of prism actions into a scummy fashion. I just think that's more likely to come from scum bussing.

Also I kinda feel like J is town because of Prims interactions.

And I'm also pissed cause now I know there's no cult because there has to be an SK.

WRT bolded why are we jumping to the conclusion that a claimed vig is actually a vig and not an sk? Just curious. Also gut feeling says something is wrong about this post and I don't really like it. Not sure quite what is bothering me though.

;_; Prims was scum after all damnit

also got hooked

kind of conflicted about BT actually

BT flip-flopped all over Mancer yesterday. For the first half of the phase he kept saying "Yeah Mancer is bad but..." like in #201 where he was like 'yeah I don't see how this is scum' and then suddenly in #230 he's like "wait no Mancer is bad but I've still seen this in town" to "idk what he's doing" in #239 to "wow Mancer is so scummy" in #253 and it just doesn't really make sense. In the night phase I was fairly sure BT was scum.

HOWEVER after the Prims flip I'm not sure anymore. BT basically just suspected Mancer and Prims for most of the day, and they were both main wagons along with me kind of. He never really pushed me at all (actually it's a little weird that he never gave an opinion on me) so if he was scum he was basically committing himself to a D1 bus and scum lynch. If this is the case, then the super waffling back-and-forth on Mancer doesn't really make sense, because why wouldn't BT just stick to one solid read there? Looks bad if Mancer is lynched over Prims (which was more likely to happen than the reverse). I guessssss if he thought town would just lynch me but over either of them without him having to do anything but eh dunno.

Will need to look at other interactions. J is probably town after Prims flip.

One pointless comment. Info that you got hooked. and then two paragraphs about you waffling on BT. How exactly is this actually helpful content to us? How is this actually scumhunting? You shouldn't be able to get away with this lazy sort of post. You didn't even vote anyone. I can understand needing to look at other interactions but why not just wait then until you had read stuff?

*sigh* Was going to reply to that, but my reply was going to end up saying "you're wrong" to like all of those points so not worth it. Get better at reading me etc. etc.

This post and the argument you had really reminded me of how I act sometimes. And I honestly feel this seems off for Refa which makes me kind of wary of him.

well from Mancer's POV if he got town!Randa lynched he could just line up lynches and go "I guess Rapier was scum parking on a townie"

basically I don't really think that's indicative either way

I also don't really think Elie is scum, which is why I had him specifically after the lurkers

SHINORI should produce content

Oh right this was one person who said something along the same lines as what rapier said. I need to produce content. 1: I subbed in but then wasn't around cause it was already near the end of day 1. 2: Day phase starts and I work lunchs at olive garden and I'm not gonna be here in the morning or afternoon. I really only have evenings open. You seem impatient at me needing to produce content when logically speaking it hasn't even been that long since I have joined the game. Personally not liking BBM at the moment.

thats because i never did

randa is playing extremely brownie townie imo. his play his been attentive, logical, detailed, invested, scum-hunty, and he made absolutely no calls that made me think twice. atm hes probably my strongest townread based off play. plus he claimed 10 townies and unless hes got 4 other scum members and hes got balls of steel hes town. i doubt an indy would be given that info, let alone be willing enough to claim it.

There have been plenty of occurences in the past where scum have claimed numbers. I just feel that this should be stated because that shouldn't be an instant town read because of that. However him playing well can be seen as town play but it can also be seen as scum play. I honestly would say you should judge him more based on what his detailed, logical, invested scum-hunting has provided. Has it provided reads and info? Has it helped us provide USEFUL conversation between fellow townies? A scum member can easily be all of the things you said and just trick the town into silly or stupid moments. Don't simply judge him to be town because he is active and claimed numbers.

I'm also a vanilla.

So, it is strange that there are three vanillas in this game. One of us is lying.

This post really seems off. Why claim vanilla randomly? Even if you are town and trying to catch a scum member. Because as far as I remember only 1 other actual person claimed Vanilla besides the fake claims from the scum members on the previous day phase.

Mancer was a scum goon, it's the same thing as a vanilla role-wise, though I do admit it is possible for the town to have 2 vanillas considering the numbers you gave, confirming we have 10 town players.

Guys, please, I wouldn't claim vanilla right after two of my supposed scumbuddies did the same thing.

No Mancer wasn't the same thing as a vanilla. Please don't say things like that. And that second line just seems really defensive and off setting. Why wouldn't you? IF you see it as LOGICALLY safe because you don't foresee the chances of town attempting to lynch a vanilla because of the misshapens hat have already happened then it would logically be safe for you to claim such a thing.

I'd rather lynch Shinori this day. We have zero interactive reads about him and he hasn't showed up in like forever, it will be better to lynch him now than keep him alive until later and have a tough time reading him.

##Vote: Shinori

OKAY I GOTTA TALK ABOUT THIS. I sub in at the end of day 1. Day 1 ends before I get around to do shit. Night phase happens. Day 2 happens and I'm not around for the first day and you think I should be lynched? You are treating me as if I've been around for multiple days of activity when I obviously haven't. I was SUBBED IN at the END of a day phase. You really can only say I've been here since day 2. And if I've only been here since day 2 how can you logically say that I should be lynched because I missed one day? The fuck Rapier?

It is also funny how you stopped reading the game after you found someone to consolidate a lynch on. What about the rest of D2? Are you more worried about lynching whoever you find as a good candidate or read the game and pick the best candidate? Are you Independent?

I'd rather lynch Shinori to eliminate the noise, so we can have a clearer read of the game later on. Keeping an inactive player alive for too long makes it hard to read them when we are near [or in] MYLO (funny thing, I am sheeping what town!Prims did in Guitar Mafia, where I was... scum. But hey this makes sense!).

I'M NOT EVEN INACTIVE THOUGH IS THE THING. MISSING 24 HOURS OUT OF A 72 HOUR PERIOD ON MY FIRST DAY INTO THE GAME BASICALLY DOES NOT QUALIFY AS INACTIVE.

So not only is your claim wierd and random and poorly thought out you are pushing for a lynch on a 'inactive' that's not actually inactive who just only subbed into the game. Your reasons for voting me are weak and poor and opportunistic.

Current reads/thoughts and shiz.

Lynch priority: Rapier > BBM > others that are mostly null at the moment as I'm still reading a few things and trying to get my thoughts together.

However the gist of this is Rapier's posts seem weak to me and his reasons for wanting to lynch me is abysmally weak and his claim was so off and awkward I don't really see a townie doing that for no reason. I mean it's happened in the past but why would an actual town Vanilla claim in this situation? It seems silly.

BBM's posts generally seem fairly weak as well. A few of the posts from him don't seem to actually have much ACTUAL content to them. Both of his posts that I quoted in this post are two prime examples of that. I'd honestly recommend looking at them and deciding for yourselves how they seem to you.

##Vote: Rapier

[Shinori]

Oh not much else has happened.

Well I still need to get some thoughts in order and what not.

[Randa]

Before actually reading that post in its entirety. I assumed SK because BT hadn't claimed vig yet. I think I was the only one who had posted for the phase at that point.

[Randa]

There have been plenty of occurences in the past where scum have claimed numbers. I just feel that this should be stated because that shouldn't be an instant town read because of that. However him playing well can be seen as town play but it can also be seen as scum play. I honestly would say you should judge him more based on what his detailed, logical, invested scum-hunting has provided. Has it provided reads and info? Has it helped us provide USEFUL conversation between fellow townies? A scum member can easily be all of the things you said and just trick the town into silly or stupid moments. Don't simply judge him to be town because he is active and claimed numbers.

Wait so numbers was popular or at least occurred as a claim multiple times in the past? I just haven't actually played in or read a setup where it existed.

Also can I please have an example of me being logical as scum. Please. (Not sarcastic or snarky like being serious btw)

[BBM]

lmao Shinori

[BBM]

Your points are basically really really bad.

Giving some content now and then the rest later is infinitely better to waiting and giving it all in the future because you can get feedback/reactions on that part right away, so that you don't forget the stuff you want to say, so that other people know what's going on in your head, and because it's normally preferable for people to read two smaller posts than one larger posts but then, your gf is Eury (obviously the other extreme of 10 one-line posts is also not preferable). Specifically in the case of my post about BT, posting my thoughts on BT was helpful because Randa had just voted for BT, and my thoughts there could have been useful to him (if BT hadn't claimed vig anyways).

Also good job going MAN BBM'S DAY TWO POSTS HAVE NO CONTENT while ignoring all my D1 posts and ignoring the fact that literally everybody has far less content on D2 than they did on D1. It's something that happens when two scum are dead at the start of D2 and the rest of the active players are all more likely to be town than not. I'll concede that I'm not making as much of an effort as I could, but really, I have no interest in lynching anybody who's been active for all of D1 and D2, and don't really think that an in-depth reread of D1 is going to make me feel sufficiently worse about active posters to want to lynch them over a lurker.

I'll apologize for not knowing your schedule and not knowing how much time you had to read and catch up. Now how about my schedule? I have to be on campus for approximately 40 hours a week (11 of which are on Mondays) and also spend 3 hours each day commuting. Then on top of that I have homework for at least an hour every day (depends on how much free time I had on campus), so really, if you're going to pull the 'I have work and was busy' card, understand that this is also the case for other people.

And I didn't even go like 'man Shinori is super scummy we should lynch him if he doesn't have content'; it was a request for you to post since you hadn't to that point.

Also... you have literally nothing looking at D1 posts from anybody. This is where the majority of the content happened, because people went into coast mode once D2 started.

Finally I didn't really like your reasoning to Gorf about Randa. It's not that you're not townreading him, it's that you're not saying why Gorf shouldn't. If the reasons that Gorf outlined about Randa being attentive, logical, etc. can all be faked by scum, why is it so hard for this amazing scum player to also be able to fake useful content that produces reads? And more to the point, in the specific case of Randa, is this actually being done or not? This feels like you talking about game theory without applying it. Has Randa's content been useful and generated reads, Shinori?

Oh yeah I agree about you talking about how illogical it is for Rapier to argue for your lynch, but several people asked for a massclaim from the lurkers, and Poly was actually the first one to claim, not Rapier. So Rapier's claim wasn't out of the blue.

[Rapier]

wow I didn't know I could make him so mad

go me

also Refa has been writing a wall of text since like four hours ago.

[Rapier]

yeah my content is pretty shitty and I'd be lynching myself if only I weren't myself. I also feel kinda sleepy and lazy right now, so whatever.

[Randa]

Good news, everyone! Making a post in a few hours when I can concentrate enough to make it happen (including the rereads I promised, probably one on Rapier too). If it's not moderately amazing (I make no promises of fucking amazing posts), then turbolunch me you know the drill.

wow I didn't know I could make him so mad

go me

also Refa has been writing a wall of text since like four hours ago.

More like 24 hours.

[Donald Trump]

Cliff-notes to J's reads:

Town: J, BT, Sara, SB, Randa, Refa

Null: Gorf, BBM

Scum: Rapier, Poly

Can't have reads on: ScarletFlame, Shinori

@Gorf: I'll get to you later since I do have questions but I am tired of mafia since I just did a full re-read.

i feel like your poly stuff is less telling than your rapier stuff, and i'm willing to bite on your rapier read since i previously had em as null can-die. like, why is it that your poly curiosity from pg 5 isn't just read as "early post-rvs stuff that can't really be seen as impressionable?" tbh i wouldn't expect ANYONE to think they're gonna be voting to lynch that early and with that little amount of info. reading it, i have no conclusive read either way.

also i wanna see how elie "looks like she has a purpose in finding scum" specifically, cuz i absolutely remember being under the impression that she was kinda coastin by.

but yea get @ my questions hoe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMnrl0tmd3k

I don't know why I am listening to this, like a hipster.

I find this logic particularly funny. If I had voted Mancer instead, you'd say I am scum who tried to earn towncred. Since I voted you instead and actually followed my reads until the end instead of swaying them to whichever direction benefits me the most, you say I am scum who tried to divert attention from Mancer (when a lynch was pretty much consolidated on him, so this is not the case) and get towncredit on a Mancer buss by switching in the end (which I never did, because I specified that I wouldn't be there for phase end).

In any case, it is impossible for me to defend myself, because whichever conclusion we take by using your logic leads to me being scum. I'd be scum if I had voted Mancer/you/anyone else. This is crazy, excuse me for being bold.

i think you're misinterpreting what he's saying completely. what's scummy was that it looks you essentially split the wagon down the middle, voted j, and set yourself up so that either result would keep your tracks covered by being wishy washy over both reads. shit's weird.

What makes an inactive worse than, say, J (who you cased yesterday)

also this too >_< it's kind of a mad cop out to just up n settle for an inactive, in guitar it kinda came down to not really having much else of a place to look. id be surprised to up n find a time until significantly later in the game where we just up n stopped worrying about the active readable players (in fact, i, an active poster in that game, was always seen as suspicious up until i was lynched, so that actually WASN'T the case). this just kinda seems lazy idk

##unvote

##vote rapier

down wit this wagon

[Donald Trump]

There have been plenty of occurences in the past where scum have claimed numbers. I just feel that this should be stated because that shouldn't be an instant town read because of that. However him playing well can be seen as town play but it can also be seen as scum play. I honestly would say you should judge him more based on what his detailed, logical, invested scum-hunting has provided. Has it provided reads and info? Has it helped us provide USEFUL conversation between fellow townies? A scum member can easily be all of the things you said and just trick the town into silly or stupid moments. Don't simply judge him to be town because he is active and claimed numbers.

[Donald Trump]

ebwop i guess my post just... disappeared

something something about not being sure how to take this post n that it's fuckin weird that you're kinda tryna just... teach me how to play? also the fact that my randa town read isn't really weighted by the numbers thing and that it's weighted by the fact that his play was very identifiable and his mindset was easily understood. also also that the rest of your post was pretty cool n i hope you stay active so we don't have to throw you into the inactive pile.