Mitsuki Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Sorry Gilgamesh, it was for the greater good. Except it turned out to be terrible in the end. -------------------------- I'm usually bad at reading Refa, so I just looked for a different way to read him. And I think there's too much damning evidence for him not to be scum. First of all, Kirsche was killed N1, when he wasn't particulary townie, or active, or whatever. It makes little sense as a fearkill either, since if it was about fearkills the target would probably have been someone else. But Kirsche's main suspicion was Refa, and he was pushing him hard. It'd make sense for scum!Refa to kill the only person who was suspecting him. Refa briefly comments on why Kirsche died here, saying that from his point of view he thinks that Kirsche was killed so that scum could accuse him. But Refa wasn't particularly suspected, so I think that'd be unlikely. [spoiler=Kind of a side comment]Usually you'd think that the kind of answer Refa is giving in the post I've linked is townie, since scum wouldn't be so blatant about pointing out stuff that people could scumread them on, but much to the contrary. It reminds me of a MotK game where I, as scum, killed the cop, who had claimed to me not long before (he had a chance to send me a message and he claimed there). The first thing I did was admitting to knowing he was the cop, since I knew that would look townie and nobody would ask further questions about it. I won that game, and nobody even suspected me. I think Refa is the kind of player who knows this kind of stuff and applies it well. I'm pretty sure nobody else will think this is a very important point or will disagree, and it definitely is not enough to accuse him. But it's specially relevant from my point of view, and it made me skeptical. Second, as SB pointed out, Refa's instance on Gilgamesh was definitely suspicious, and to me it feels like for a while he was backing up what Baldrick was saying and pushing Gilgamesh with no real thoughts behind that. When he switched votes, it further looked unnatural to me. But the most important part is how Refa agreed with Baldrick about the existence of a poison kill. It looked as if he was claiming that a poison kill could exist out of nowhere, and there was no reasoning behind that. If he really thought that a poison kill could exist, he'd have given some explanation about that along the claim that a poison kill could exist. So again, to me it just looked as if he was trying to back up what Baldrick was saying in order to see if there was a chance to make people change their minds about him. @Refa: Explain your logic on the poison kill. Finally, Baldrick motivated Refa, which Refa confirmed. I'm pretty sure that scum wouldn't motivate a random townie, not even as a fake, when they could do other much better stuff with their role. And yeah, Baldrick's PM was definitely not a fake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitsuki Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 I know because I asked Gilgamesh to target me. I guess Zerosabers could have targeted me and died because of that but I think it's way more likely that Eury vigged her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 I don't think that Baldrick's pm was entirely real because iirc it had like 5 parts to it when Blitz's only had 2. Let me look at it again quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snike Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Now that I think about it Do we have any evidence that the poisoner exists, outside of Refa/ Baldrick? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snike Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 BBM, i want to ask one question first: Did you or did you not pop your power on me last night? Cause I got yet another' never made it', and the thought of not being able to pull a Shirou Emiya 'MUST BE A HERO!!!' moment makes me all kinds of sad. Who did you target? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 I can vouch for the poisoner's existence. Also: Baldrick claimed Ninja/Motivator/Nexus/Weak Maker. I'm inclined to think that Motivator+Weak Maker is his real role because everything else seems like overkill and Weak Maker sounds too dumb to be fake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snike Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 I don't see why he'd fake part of his role though, unless last scum has those two qualities. And I mean ninja makes sense to prevent a lucky tracker sweep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The3rdCorinthian Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Sooo, nobody target Mitsuki when she wanders the street at night? Is that the moral of the story? Also, I partly want to see Prims flip, since someone mentionned earlier that scum wouldn't Empower and Hijack the same target. Well, Gil flipped town, so whats not to say BBM didn't empower Prims to make sure the zero vote could get through? Its moreso a gut read at the moment, and therefore weaker, but I still want to get it checked out. Also, that earlier question? I lied. I got to SB just fine last night. I forgot that BBM could only empower N1, and thus i wanted to try and get a reaction from him. I'm only now seeing all the little holes where said reaction test was flawed. TEACH ME SB SENSEI! Mitsukis Refa case makes a barrel of sense though. Killing kirsche and trying to erase suspicion by being the one to mention a possible Framing makes too much logic in my book for me not to consider it. He was also one of the people to target potential weakpoints in your plan, a plan which made people shift votes from Gilg (town) to Bald (scum from the deepest depth of tartarus). Granted, He'd voted for baldrick first, but I see that as possibly scum distancing themselves. Refa, How did you know about the poison? Were you informed, and if so, what is your role. ##Vote: Refa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snike Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Actually, what do you think about there being both tracker and watcher in this setup? Heil Hydra #2 claimed a watch result so I have to wonder how much investigative power we have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The3rdCorinthian Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Actually, what do you think about there being both tracker and watcher in this setup? Heil Hydra #2 claimed a watch result so I have to wonder how much investigative power we have. Hopefully enough to deal with Blitz's wizard, Bald's I don't even, and whatever kind of scum's hiding behind door number 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitsuki Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 I don't think SB is faking that a poisoner exists but at the same time I don't think that's a major role. Probably an extra scum kill? I don't know. Either way Refa should still answer my question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 I don't think it's an extra scumkill because of Baldrick's role. I think that Gaius/eclipse+zerosabers are town if it's really part of his role and scum if it wasn't. Tracker isn't enough to justify full-ninja ever, but honestly Watcher without any kind of ninja is kind of pushing it because Watcher is really strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The3rdCorinthian Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Speaking of... Eclipse, what did your reptilic eyes see! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 I can't wait for postgame where Baldrick reveals his real role as Ascetic Strongman Tailor and his last scumbuddy, Primsnike, as Mafia Bulletproof Poisoner Rolecop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The3rdCorinthian Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 I can't wait for postgame where Baldrick reveals his real role as Ascetic Strongman Tailor and his last scumbuddy, Primsnike, as Mafia Bulletproof Poisoner Rolecop. Sad part is, I could buy this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 In hindsight, I'm suspicious of Refa due role reasons related to the poison; if you knew that it existed, why would you not out that at the start of the game? I am also slightly weirded out by the fact that he came to the conclusion that Gilgamesh was town and then wanted to vote there over Baldrick anyway. I'm not too sure about this because of Baldrick deciding to modkill himself anyway, but it's possible he decided he was beyond saving and gave up all hope of surviving. It probably wasn't a thing they plannedout with the team at the very least. If I pointed it out at the start of the game, it would help scum figure out my role without benefiting town in any way. Think about it, what is town going to do with that information? I don't think hijacker + bg/doc both being townsided fits correctly. The kill motive spec on kirsche is also incredibly sheepy I'm confused, why is that not likely? Finally, Baldrick motivated Refa, which Refa confirmed. I'm pretty sure that scum wouldn't motivate a random townie, not even as a fake, when they could do other much better stuff with their role. And yeah, Baldrick's PM was definitely not a fake. This is full of shit. Why would I announce the motivate then at the beginning of the day in such a way? And no, I'm not explaining my logic behind the poison thing because it would out my role. Like okay, fine, scumread me for my actual content, but it's incredibly frustrating when you do so for things that are beyond my control. Refa, How did you know about the poison? Were you informed, and if so, what is your role. ##Vote: Refa If I claim my role, I might as well become a vanilla. I'm not an informed role. Stop rolefishing. Also I don't think Prims would care so much about people not flipping as scum (so as to sub out). Like there's faking emotion and there's that. SB brought up a good point about the ninja, so Eclipse is probably town as well? The only issue I have there is her lying. 3rd, Crysta, and Mitsuki I've already talked enough about, so the only people I can see being scum are SSG, BBM, and Izhuark. Izhuark kind of bothers me but if he was scum, I think Elie would have subbed him over Prims? Actually, that probably points more to Prims being scum or Elie just not reading Izhuark's sub request. Actually wait, SSG hasn't posted for the entirety of Day 2 but he never got prodded. Heh, got 'em. ##Vote: SSG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Okay, when I was talking about Eclipse, I meant Baldrick lying about his role, not Eclipse lying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitsuki Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 This is full of shit. Why would I announce the motivate then at the beginning of the day in such a way? And no, I'm not explaining my logic behind the poison thing because it would out my role. I never said that you should have announced the motivate at the beginning of the day, or anything similar. Read my post properly. You could just have said "role related stuff", then. @SB: Why do you think there's a poisoner? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 ^I mean, I announced that I got targeted by someone and I thought the person was town so I didn't out the action. Actually, why would my scumbuddy Baldrick announce that he motivated me? That doesn't make me look any townier (especially when I just agreed that I got motivated instead of saying he lied and making it a 1v1 for towncred or something), it makes me look worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitsuki Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 I do believe there's a poisoner right now but it just seems to make no sense as any alignment, even as 3rd party, if it's not a minor extra scum kill. @SB: Which alignment do you think the poisoner is? I don't understand this setup. @Refa: Because he was pretending to be a SK and he claimed that was his fake. I think he claimed motivator not to make you look townier or scummier, but to make himself less likely to be lynched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The3rdCorinthian Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 I don't understand, If shyguy never got prodded, does that mean he's been active here as in watching the thread, or active as in doing something that progesses THE PLOT?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The3rdCorinthian Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Also, the fudge cake is a motivator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 The latter, I'd assume. Also I don't want this thread to get cluttered up with me defending myself. Look, feel free to post replies to whatever I've said but I'm not going to reply to them again unless you have additional questions for me. Anyways, I know my reads were a mess so this is how I'd organize them. Oh yeah, forgot to ask. What do people think about there being three scum left? I was going off of that assumption but uh...maybe I'm wrong. Kind of another reason I think SSG is scum because I don't think scum would kill the vigilante over the watcher unless they hadn't been keeping up (this is why I'm less suspicious of BBM, honestly). TOWN (would never lynch) 3rd- The only claimed protective role. SB- Baldrick would never confess to a fake guilty by his scumbuddy. Crysta- Cleared by Baldrick pushing her straight into D2. Mitsuki- Read one of my earlier posts. LEANING TOWN (not as confident as above but I wouldn't lynch today) Prims- Again, above post. Izhuark- Above post. PROBABLY SCUM BBM- I think SB pointed it out best in his case today. SSG- In addition to what I've said, he's probably the most likely to have bussed Blitz? Way too lazy to ISO after I just woke up but I don't really remember anything about his vote at this point, which is kind of bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitsuki Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 By the way, our role was crumbed in the end of this post, when I replied to Prims. Note that by then I was still more or less scumreading him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koneko Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 A motivator basically allows for a person to do an action twice, though I'm not sure if it's for multiple nights or just one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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