Ragnarok Online Mafia [Game Over]

[BBM]

but... all you said about me is that "SB explained it best", and SB's case was just "I'm wary of BBM because he promised reads and then never delivered" from #537. afaicr on D2 you were suspicious but after the part where you thought I was the scum hijacker (as in, before gilgamesh claimed), you dropped the vote and were just questioning me

that's a good point with Baldrick I guess... if he just wanted to bus a buddy he'd be more likely to just vote blitz. I suppose if he wanted to distance without bussing but it's kind of a stretch at this point.

@crysta- who are your current scumreads?

going to read SSG and izhuark/shin next. I'm going to leave the gaius/eclipse slot until tomorrow because that sounds like a lot more work and I'm really tired.

with Izhuark I thought his posts came across as lost but kind of honest, which is why I thought he was town. I also didn't think scum izhuark would be the coasting type?

[Refa]

Pretty sure SB mentioned something about your current content being kind of unimpressive and lacking scumreads (or he should have anyways). It's also kind of POE (which I'm sure I mentioned in a later post of mine) because a lot of people don't make sense as scum to me (the only other person is Gaius/Eclipse IIRC? I may be dismissing Izhuark too easily but I basically agreed with your assessment). Like I've kind of turned my brain off at the moment and I'll try to actually do something tomorrow and read into your cases more but yeah.

[Refa]

Why did you want to lynch Gilgamesh over Baldrick yesterday though?

[BBM]

I thought they were both scum and thought that a scum hijacker would be more dangerous. I can't remember whether or not I believed Baldrick was the SK (I think I did) but either way I just thought it'd be more important to get rid of a hijacker.

fair enough with PoE I guess but at least with SB when he said my content was unimpressive I took it to mean since I actually only had the one content post. I don't think anyone directly said my sub-in post was unimpressive, though I may be wrong.

I read SSG and... I'm not seeing it? Like, yeah, his Blitz vote isn't much and kind of generic, and most of his posts don't say much, but the listpost (#151) seemed well reasoned and thoughtful considering it's his first game, and I saw him making efforts to read people and stuff.

I'm kind of wondering why the mafia didn't try killing corinthian tbh. ugh.

[BBM]

wow I read izhuark and he has way less d1 stuff than I thought he did. I thought he had a listpost but I must have mixed him and SSG up. izhuark just pseudo-defends blitz but never gives his own opinion on blitz's life case, just talking about how it's good to ask the obvious questions. He says he'll ask questions, never does, talks about rolespec vaguely but never offers it, and then when he comes back at phase end he says the blitz case is good even though he was against it earlier.

would support a lunch.

[eclipse]

Do I have to read the end of D2? I had something like ten new pages, and it scares me.

Bah, fine, I'll at least get to the Mitsuki/Koneko and Refa thingy that I promised.

HI SNIKE~!

[eclipse]

On second thought, CHEW TOY~! I think I'd rather respond to stuff here, because every time I look backwards into D2, I see Baldrick's spam and feel like targeting Mitsuki to put me out of my misery.

. . .which means that I'll have to do the Mitsuki/Refa reads on the fly. EURY, I WILL TRY TO CARRY YOUR SPIRIT OF THE WALLPOST!

Actually, what do you think about there being both tracker and watcher in this setup? Heil Hydra #2 claimed a watch result so I have to wonder how much investigative power we have.

If Baldrick was modkilled for posting his role PM, then there had to be some truth to it. I'm willing to guess that the Ninja part is true, at least.

Speaking of...

Eclipse, what did your reptilic eyes see!

A phase end shortly after I woke up.

Gaius answered this, complete with host error. Elieson is the best. ;/

@SB: Why do you think there's a poisoner?

Why does it matter?

Refa listpost. First, you missed me totally scummy btw. Second, I disagree with SSG suddenly being the scummiest scum, and what I outlined here still applies.

##Vote: SSG

He's had four days to talk since his last post and he has visited since then (last visit was early morning yesterday - not sure if that would require a prod or not).

And hi Izhuark.

Er. . .what? This vote makes no sense at all. Is everyone else in the game town?

I don't actually think there's 3 scum. I kind of think the poisoner is third party and just keeps having their day ruined.

So. . .answer me this. Actually, everyone answer me this.

Who targeted Life on N1?

Because Life wouldn't have had a reason to fake that persuade on D2, and forcing a townie to vote for themselves is pretty scummy IMO. It was also semi-mod-confirmed that Prims/Snike do have a persuasive role. Until I hear a good answer, that role is part of the scumset in my mind.

Can I just make the point that scum would've been super penalized if Baldrick faked his role? That would've been a tactical modkill if his role or near anything he said immediately beforehand (3 scum) was falsified. And if that was the case, I don't see why Elieson would be hiding the flip from us.

Funny, I asked Elieson about this earlier. He told me that anything that looked like a role PM would most likely result in a modkill, fake or not. Thus, I think the scum team's "penalty" would be losing another member when they already had one lynched D1. Going into N2, whoever did the kill had to contend with a tracker and a watcher. If that isn't nerve-wracking, I don't know what is.

Lastly, I don't take spelling errors in the role PM to mean that a role is fake. Elieson's doing approximately one host error per night phase, so him screwing up something minor in a role PM isn't out of the realm of possibility.

---

I'm just gonna lump this in here, because even though Gilgamesh's role PM contains the error that says he's town, I still don't like this quote:

Also general question. Would you guys consider Hijacker a protective role?

The fact that Refa brings up the role, and not the person behind the role, reads scummy to me. At that point, there weren't enough claimed roles to say for certain whether or not Gilgamesh was cleared by role. I really need to read Refa more in-depth, because this isn't enough to drive/defend anything.

Also, I don't think Mitsuki is mafia, because it doesn't fit into Baldrick's whining about his team (assuming he's telling the truth. . .and I'm not going through his ISO to dig up that post, I don't love you guys that much).

The tl;dr of this is that I'm going to finish up everything else I'm neglecting on SF, do some housework, and then see whether or not I can get any sort of coherent read off of this. Of my four scumspects last night, three somehow died, and Shin's in that weird state where he just subbed in.

[eclipse]

My goodness, I suck.

"Whoever made Life vote for himself is probably scum".

[The3rdCorinthian]

Question for BBM, what exactly is in your role? If its seriousy a 1 shot empower, that would be too weak to even consider as a role, So you must have at least something else you can use.

okay, you don't have to say your role, just whether or not you have any other abilities

[Crysta]

Okay. Back to my computer. I still took too long to post this but YouTube mash-up covers are distracting.

The SSG vote wasn't put there to see if he would suddenly log on and post if he was lurking offline. I left it there because I didn't need to move my vote elsewhere yet and then I went to work. He has visited today but he hasn't replied so... take that as you will.

BBM's problems with my D1 content... I'm not going to remake the wallposts defending myself; only that explaining myself to Baldrick and Mitsuki =/= trying to convince others my logic is right and to join the wagon. My follow-up of my first post + Eury's reply was engaging her.

She says she's "still a little uneasy" about Eury which implies lessening suspicion on Eury... why? she never really says, my suspicion is it's because Eury was no longer really a valid lynch option.

Context:

Izzy still needs to elaborate, too. But he has the day. Still uneasy about Eury but I'll be around and hopefully she'll be, too.

I couldn't vote for her again at this point because I had to vote for myself (or thought I did, anyway - go mod errors). I didn't know what the hell Eury was, so who knew, maybe she had a scan. It was a new day. Everyone thought I was tunneling, but I still thought I was onto something.

Then on D3 she just votes SSG on inactivity even though she'd never been suspicious of him before or taking his past content into account. This is not good enough for D3.

Three of the remaining players have been subbed in. Your slot, Shin's/Izzy's slot, and his slot have pretty much D1 content and little else. I did a prod vote more suited for D1/D2 - so sue me. You've given us more to work with in regards to your slot, but I don't like it.

Reads OTHERWISE - tl;dr version -

@Lord Gaius/eclipse: I honestly expect Scum!Gaius to have hopped on the Blitz wagon for brownie points on D1 because I know he considers those things as scum last time we were scum buddies. I agree that the way eclipse presented her night results right away also reads as town. I'm not scum-reading this slot.

@The3rdCorinthian: Hard-efforting super subconscious newb town still.

@SB: Scum-trolling town.

@Prims/Snike: Generally agreed with Prims most of the time he was around and his parting post reads much more like frustrated town more than frustrated scum. He could be pulling a fast one on me, he would know whether or not Life's role was anti-town or town as scum.

@BBM: I didn't dislike his first post but I feel he's framing his arguments in a way to appeal to what others have had a problem with in my D1 content and he feels confident he can spin my interaction with Baldrick to make it appear to be some elaborate D1 bussing scheme, instead of Baldrick just sensing an easy mislynch and trying to capitalize on it when going into D2. I don't think he has as big of an opening on anyone else at this point, so he's going for it. Might be fueled by bias and paranoia, but he's a scum read right now.

@SuperShyGuy94: I don't like how he's logged on today and hasn't posted anything. Maybe he hates phone-posting too but man I at least try. Null reads are lame.

@Izhuark/Shin: I understand life was probably dogging him but I think he was more attentive than he let on and would have looked at the Eury wagon closer around the time he posted this if he were town, instead of just outright telling us to wait on Blitz. I don't think he had any interest in doing so and I certainly don't think he was merely "pseudo" defending Blitz. I know BBM's okay with the lynch, too, but I think that may be a him-over-me bus. Scum read.

@Refa: Would be third on my scum list priority mostly because I felt it sounded like he knew Gilgamesh's alignment by how easily he accepted his bullshit logic, but there's a small voice in my head telling me not to read too much into it for some reason. That and I simply find everyone else townier.

@Mitsuki: Town for the same reasons most people are townreading her; for the early start on Blitz.

Now I'm gonna eat.

[eclipse]

While I'm waiting for my dinner to cook. . .

Question for BBM, what exactly is in your role? If its seriousy a 1 shot empower, that would be too weak to even consider as a role, So you must have at least something else you can use.

okay, you don't have to say your role, just whether or not you have any other abilities

It's not massclaim yet. Why does BBM's role matter, seeing as he's not a serious contender for the lynch?

---

After a bunch of rereading, I'm not really reading BBM as scum. The two I want more out of are Crysta and Shin. Crysta said she had a reason for voting SSG (the latter who I'm STILL not reading as scum), and I want to hear it. Izhuark left in a bad spot (seriously, if you sub out, don't tell the game squat about anything, and put that sub request in your role PM as well). Shin's content so far is a vote on Refa that looks like it belongs in RVS. Refa seems really out of it, but I can't tell if it's demotivation or just a bad week. I'll flip a coin tomorrow night.

Corinthian please stop asking other people about their roles.

Since my stance is "I want more info", I'm leaving my vote on Not Voting.

[eclipse]

. . .and cut. But that's going to have to wait until I eat dinner.

[eclipse]

The SSG vote wasn't put there to see if he would suddenly log on and post if he was lurking offline. I left it there because I didn't need to move my vote elsewhere yet and then I went to work. He has visited today but he hasn't replied so... take that as you will.

Does that mean he's scum?

@Lord Gaius/eclipse: I honestly expect Scum!Gaius to have hopped on the Blitz wagon for brownie points on D1 because I know he considers those things as scum last time we were scum buddies. I agree that the way eclipse presented her night results right away also reads as town. I'm not scum-reading this slot.

@The3rdCorinthian: Hard-efforting super subconscious newb town still.

@SB: Scum-trolling town.

@Prims/Snike: Generally agreed with Prims most of the time he was around and his parting post reads much more like frustrated town more than frustrated scum. He could be pulling a fast one on me, he would know whether or not Life's role was anti-town or town as scum.

@BBM: I didn't dislike his first post but I feel he's framing his arguments in a way to appeal to what others have had a problem with in my D1 content and he feels confident he can spin my interaction with Baldrick to make it appear to be some elaborate D1 bussing scheme, instead of Baldrick just sensing an easy mislynch and trying to capitalize on it when going into D2. I don't think he has as big of an opening on anyone else at this point, so he's going for it. Might be fueled by bias and paranoia, but he's a scum read right now.

@SuperShyGuy94: I don't like how he's logged on today and hasn't posted anything. Maybe he hates phone-posting too but man I at least try. Null reads are lame.

@Izhuark/Shin: I understand life was probably dogging him but I think he was more attentive than he let on and would have looked at the Eury wagon closer around the time he posted this if he were town, instead of just outright telling us to wait on Blitz. I don't think he had any interest in doing so and I certainly don't think he was merely "pseudo" defending Blitz. I know BBM's okay with the lynch, too, but I think that may be a him-over-me bus. Scum read.

@Refa: Would be third on my scum list priority mostly because I felt it sounded like he knew Gilgamesh's alignment by how easily he accepted his bullshit logic, but there's a small voice in my head telling me not to read too much into it for some reason. That and I simply find everyone else townier.

@Mitsuki: Town for the same reasons most people are townreading her; for the early start on Blitz.

Now I'm gonna eat.

Scum because eating while mafiaing is MY schtick! BTW, everyone is banned, especially Elieson, because I overcooked my dinner.

Since when did Prims know Life's role? If you're talking about the no-alignment flip, it could've very well been a bad third-party variant (say, one that wins when everyone in the game is vanilla).

I'm townreading Mitsuki based on role/Baldrick's whining.

Really unhappy with that SSG vote, though. All it did was raise a bunch of unanswered questions, while generating no new reads. Also, if you're scumreading BBM/Shin, why aren't you voting either of them?

##Vote: Crysta

I think you'll be back in time to respond to stuff. Still waiting on Shin to do not-RVS stuff.

[Crysta]

Does that mean he's scum?

Scum because eating while mafiaing is MY schtick! BTW, everyone is banned, especially Elieson, because I overcooked my dinner.

Since when did Prims know Life's role? If you're talking about the no-alignment flip, it could've very well been a bad third-party variant (say, one that wins when everyone in the game is vanilla).

I'm townreading Mitsuki based on role/Baldrick's whining.

Really unhappy with that SSG vote, though. All it did was raise a bunch of unanswered questions, while generating no new reads. Also, if you're scumreading BBM/Shin, why aren't you voting either of them?

##Vote: Crysta

I think you'll be back in time to respond to stuff. Still waiting on Shin to do not-RVS stuff.

No. It means he's still playing but not posting. I suspect he's gotten the prod message. It's a sharp contrast to how he enthusiastic he seemed yesterday. I thought putting him as a null read right now made that clear enough; you don't play for just one day and get much else from me.

Prims didn't know Life's alignment initially. If they were of the same alignment (scum), I think the curiosity wouldn't have been there. His alignment was revealed afterwards.

And ??? about the questions part; what questions other than "why the hell did she vote for someone she hasn't ever mentioned before" were raised? Elaborate pls.

I'm scum-reading the slots, but I don't know why you can be waiting for more info on them but I can't be. They're both sub-ins. If I had to vote now it would go on Izhuark because I trust my read on him more and I've been suspicious of him for longer.

[Crysta]

Not yesterday, I meant D1 lol.

He didn't post yesterday obviously.

[eclipse]

I think that would've been a tell only if Life flipped scum. I don't see it as a point for/against Prims, since Life flipped town.

Difference is that you already have a case against BBM, while I wanted an explanation for that SSG vote (which you gave). I can see not voting Shin on the basis that he doesn't have much to work with. Thus, I'd expect a vote on BBM, for more information. I know I made myself pretty clear as to why I wasn't voting during my last wall.

The unanswered questions are:

- Would "I forgot about the game" be a valid argument as any alignment, and why?

- What about the fact that he apparently hadn't logged on for the entirety of N2 (according to. . .somewhere back there, forgot who said that)?

- Was anyone else scummier than null for you at the time?

Not really concerned about the D1/D2 stuff right this minute, because I don't have time to research everything. Maybe when I decide on that Refa read.

[Crysta]

I think that would've been a tell only if Life flipped scum. I don't see it as a point for/against Prims, since Life flipped town.

Touche' I guess. If both Prims and Life were scum I don't think the question would have existed; it sounds like something town-aligned would ask.

Difference is that you already have a case against BBM

I have a case on both of them. I expect them to both participate in the discussion (probably against me) and I'll vote. I came into the day suspecting Izhuark and wondering where the fuck another slot was; my read on BBM didn't change until he cased me, so no I'm not as confident there.

I'll vote, but not yet. Before it's pointed out: the difference between this and what Eury did (which bothered me) is that I didn't RVS vote then talk about someone else. I will follow through with the read if Shin doesn't articulate more. I can't see the situation changing much.

Would "I forgot about the game" be a valid argument as any alignment, and why?

I don't recall him insisting he actually did this. It would be a terrible argument as any alignment, though. It seems weird to remember Hunger Games but not this after being prodded.

What about the fact that he apparently hadn't logged on for the entirety of N2 (according to. . .somewhere back there, forgot who said that)?

It means he at least isn't responsible for any fuckery that may have happened in N2. It doesn't infallibly indicate alignment.

Was anyone else scummier than null for you at the time?

I thought Eury was the obvious big one. She's ded. Izhuark then didn't elaborate on anything I wanted him to elaborate on before he subbed out.

[Crysta]

fuck you forum code

[charlie_]

My feeling about Life's self-vote was that he did it because he's an ass, not because he was forced.

@sb- are you a survivor? Why did you confirm the poisoner's existence when there's apparently a good reason for you not to?

I'm not ITP. It feels less risky at this point. I'll explain at massclaim I guess.

I thought I said this a while ago but after Baldrick's flip I refuse to vote Crysta's way; Baldrick bussing relentlessly after a D1 maflynch seems like suicide.

The wallposts are too strong for me bother with in the morning. Later maybe.

[BBM]

@corinthian- I have another role which is my primary role. empowerer was a 1x buff to that role.

I don't really consider hijacker to be a protective role, no. I see it as one of those "other" roles like motivator and neighbour (anyone who says neighbour is investigative is trying to pigeonhole roles).

@crysta- I'll grant that I misunderstood your Eury post at the start of D2 and I also forgot that you were persuaded at the start of D2 and therefore couldn't vote Eury. But I still don't see why you voted for SSG out of all the lurkers. Okay, he was online and didn't post. Why not vote izhuark, who was a lurker you actually had more issues with? this was before shin subbed in iirc. Also, by "null reads are lame" idk if you mean that you have a null read on him and that's lame, or he has a lot of null reads. Also yeah you followed up to Eury's reply but it's not really addressed directly to her? This may be semantic but it seems as if you were speaking about her, not to her, past your initial vote post anyways.

eclipse/gaius read will have to be at night since I have to leave in 10 minutes. I'll be back in ~14 hours.

[Elieson]

V-V-V-Votals

BBM (2): [Koneko+Mitsuki], Refa

Crysta (2): BBM, [Eclipse+Lord Gaius]

Refa (1): IzhuShin

Shin (1): SB

The3rdCorinthian (1): PrimSnike

Refa (1): The3rdCorinthian

Voteless (2): Crysta, SuperShyGuy94

---

48hrs 45min remain. 6 votes = Hammer. No Hammer = No Lynch.

---

Active Sub Requests:

SuperShyGuy94

@Mod, will it be announced if a faction is eliminated?

*YLO will not be announced. Elimination of a theoretical faction(s) will be announced at the end of the game.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Elieson

[Mitsuki]

I've skimmed. Still in a similar mood, but I'll try.

I don't like BBM's Crysta case because the main points seem like misreps to me and a lot of the rest ignores context (for example, BBM suspects Crysta on voting SSG when she said that she had a reason for that, which was a pretty obvious one by the way) or is just not telling all (for example, not giving an explicit reason to stop having Eury as a priority).

She talks to Mitsuki about how she's more concerned with engaging Eury directly than trying to convince other people, except the latter is pretty much what she does.

How was Crysta not pushing Eury? If you mean that she replied to me it's because I pointed out that her case sucked first. To me it looks like you're trying to paint the fact that she replied as scummy, when (at least in her reply to me) I only see her defending her case. I think that's something pretty normal to do.

She also talks about how it's not important to pick apart everything in Eury's posts, just the stuff she finds relevant. This basically means she was just cherrypicking the questionable stuff Eury put out without looking at her content holistically.

Misrep. When you make a case, you don't post an analysis on everything a player has done. That doesn't mean you're cherrypicking or not trying to make sense of the player as a whole, it just means you're focusing on what is relevant.

To be honest I'm ok with keeping our vote on BBM just for that awful case. I'm way less convinced than usual, but yeah.

@Eclipse: it matters to potentially have further information about what's the deal with the poisoner, and to see if he's not faking that a poisoner exists (I doubt he is, but).

Crysta reminds me of myself in my first games in MotK, where I always rolled town and I had to spend forever replying to people because everyone questioned every little thing I did. For that alone I wouldn't lynch her.

[Snike]

SPOILER ALERT: THIS IS PROBABLY NOT GOING TO SOUND VERY COHERENT AS I AM STILL SICK WITH THE PLAGUE

Re: Modkill penalty: I disagree. Baldrick was on his way to getting lynched anyways, so ending the day early by modkilling him +life served to benefit scum because it denied town the opportunity to ML off of that flip were it a normal modkill.

Re: BG/hijack/Watcher: I feel like bg/hijacker/watcher is a bit too much because that can lead to a scenario where if all 3 are clear hijacker hijacks to bg target and they're immediately cleared or guiltied, either by no kill or by night kill retaliation by the bg. Which seems strong to me in this set up when we already have a confirmed cop + tracker. (who are dead)

But I might be overthinking this because 3rd is the only player to claim an actual protective role, and why would scum need a pseudo-hitman (Blitz- Summon Canadian Winter) if they controlled the kill protection?

But then why wasn't he killed this past night phase?

Ugh.

##Unvote

##Vote: Shin

Going to move to this for now because even with what I said previously, I don't think the Lord eclipse hydra is scum with their actions, despite my issue raised above. This slot, on the other hand, has been filler content in a 35 page game. And unlike SSG, Izuhark was actually here during the night phase and was still paying attention to the game post sub-out post, so I don't feel bad for picking on him for not actually doing anything. It's not shin I'm particularly opposed to, just the slot he's wearing.

going to go lay down again.

[Shin]

It's not shin I'm particularly opposed to, just the slot he's wearing.

I can always slip into something more comfortable if you like!

My apologies for taking so long with reading, you guys talk a lot and it's pretty hard to follow. I'm struggling to find interactions with flipped scum currently, but I should be able to piece things together in a day or so.

[Mitsuki]

Who do you think is scum (for now)?