Ragnarok Online Mafia [Game Over]

[Refa]

Snike, I'd assume the cop vanillized people for exactly that reason. Town's had tracker/watcher/vanillizing cop as claimed investigation in a game with a scum ninja (assuming what you said about Baldrick is true, and I do agree with it), which doesn't seem so strong to me.

[spoiler=Izhuark/Shin]

I can get why people are scumreading him but I don't really agree with it. His early play here is similar to his early play in another mafia game that I'm not naming (wherein he flipped town), and I don't think he'd react that way as scum. /shrugs Maybe I am being overly dismissive of this slot but there's not exactly much else to go on here.

Actually, Shin's laziness bothers me more. I mean, the least you can do is read Day 4 and get reads out of that.

[spoiler=LG/Eclipse]

-LG asked a question to Baldrick in ED1 but never followed up on it (not scummy associative wise, it's just in the same category as the rest).

-Explained why most of his D1 content is scummy here and his reply here is the only thing worrying me about this read (moreo because of tone and the motivation behind it over the content). Someone else (IDR who but I think SB) brought up the point that he threw his weight around with the Life and Kirsche votes but never did anything with them and his switch away from them read as unnatural and I agree.

-It takes the slot almost forever to mention Blitz. It's worse than not being bothered or even townreading Blitz's initial post because it lets him avoid giving an opinion on scum.

Overall his content is scummy (okay, not his D2 and D3 stuff) and I'd be all for voting him except for that one post. It's really frustrating that Baldrick outed himself before LG could give his opinion on the situation. Maybe Eclipse will be more obvious.

-Uh...I'm not really bothered by any of her content. Worst part is probably voting Gilgamesh over Baldrick, but multiple people alive are guilty of that.

Mreh, wouldn't lynch this slot. I'm only bothered by this slot for role related reasons, but scum having a ninja would basically clear this slot anyways. And if scum doesn't have a ninja, I can just complain to Elieson about this in postgame.

I'll ISO BBM when he gets those last few ISO's done. Everyone else I'm dismissing as town, either because they have a strong reason to be town or because their content is good (Snike is probably the only one here). Honestly, something about 3rd is still bothering me (not really his case on me...maybe how he's assuming there are two scum left, I dunno; also his reads today being lacking) but I don't see his D2 outburst as coming from scum.

Wait, I also had a question.

@Mod- Are scum's kills randomized if they don't send one in (or some NK action)?

[Elieson]

@Mod- Are scum's kills randomized if they don't send one in (or some NK action)?

I will neither confirm nor deny this.

[BBM]

@mitsuki- you don't analyze every little thing someone does, no, but you do have to consider it. You can't just go "yeah not going to talk about this half of someone's content". What does not relevant even mean? Everything non-spam related is relevant to figuring out someone's alighment. Arguably spam is too.

just came home so going to eat dinner first

[eclipse]

1. I'm here.

2. I'm going to actually play this game when my stomach settles (in like an hour or so). Blame public transportation.

[Refa]

Oh yeah Eclipse, when you get back, can you find where Baldrick was complaining about his teammates not being there or whatever? I checked his ISO but didn't see it and it's KIND OF important to who I'm voting.

[eclipse]

I can do small things.

This is Baldrick complaining about the mafia

[BBM]

@Refa- I don't think your meta wrt the Game-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named is correct. In that game, Izhuark consistently gave scumreads even if they weren't that good. This game is just Izhuark speaking vaguely about game theory regarding questions and obvious answers, all as part of a soft defence on Blitz, and promising content and never delivering. The few posts he had didn't really have the scumhunting drive that he did in the other game. I'm sure what he said about not being in a mafia mindset was true, but I don't think that's enough to explain it.

And yeah as you said Shin hasn't even read D4.

With Gaius, I agree with what Refa pointed out about his D1 issues. I also don't like his stance towards Eury; defending her with regards to one part of the case and then saying "but overall I still think she's scummy" feels like cheerleading the wagon while distancing himself. He doesn't vote her until much later and it's well timed to just be an attempt to save Blitz. Also maybe I'm misunderstanding something but how can he rag on kirsche for taking an interest in "unconsequential things like Life's position" considering Gaius himself was voting Life up to that point? Stance on Blitz is scummy in #223: "Blitz is inactive but Blitz is scummy but Eury is worse but would still switch to Blitz at deadline". It also seems to contain a lot of "good job newbie!" townreads which isn't explicitly scummy I guess but the townreads are largely unprompted and not about people under serious lynch consideration and not part of a post giving general opinions on everyone.

On D2 he just sheeped Gilgamesh and then disappeared when Gilgamesh scumreads happened, though I'm probably being unfair since I think he was "subbing out".

THE PROBLEM HOWEVER is that Eclipse's posts read generally town to me. From what I remember scum Eclipse does a lot of voting people for playing in a way she doesn't agree with or is "bad" as opposed to actual gameplay reasons. The closest she comes to that is Gilgamesh wrt why he didn't target Corinthian, but even that is tied back to scum intent.

Also, I was thinking earlier for reasons why scum wouldn't go for Corinthian and all I can think of is that maybe they were trying to dodge the Watcher? That would imply town Gaius/Eclipse. But then I'm not sure why they wouldn't simply kill them as opposed to Eury/zero, unless they had rolecop reports or something. idk.

Overall I guess I'm mildly suspicious of Gaius/Eclipse but I'd rather lynch Izhuark first.

[BBM]

@eclipse- baldrick complains, yeah, but he doesn't say they're inactive? Plus it was right before Baldrick modkilled himseld tactically so I don't know if it's even a trustworthy post.

I'm so tired I can barely type so I'm going to sleep. I'm probably going to claim in the morning if neither Mitsuki nor Refa unvotes I guess? I'm going to be coming home late again tomorrow so realistically I'm going to make like one post tomorrow, two or three next evening, and one the morning after, so I want to claim well ahead of time.

[Refa]

I can do small things.

This is Baldrick complaining about the mafia

Oh...I thought he was complaining about the third scumbuddy being inactive or something, not role stuff (because I didn't think that he'd complain about that if BBM was his scumbuddy).

Yeah, fair enough regarding Izhuark actually. I can't ISO you right at the moment but will probably be able to do so before you wake up (so my vote reflect my current thoughts on you before you claim).

[Refa]

Oh yeah, if you're still on, what did you think about SSG and Elie not confirming or denying whether mafia's kill would be randomized? I feel like he would have done it (especially if there's one mafia left, because they'd get bodied even harder) but that just warrants an actual ISO of the dude.

[BBM]

iirc I said what I thought about SSG? His posts weren't extremely original or anything but it seemed like he was putting in effort and stuff and the listpost at least seemed well reasoned? I also thought his excitement at what he perceived was an original point on Prims felt genuine. I don't think he's scum. If it came to the point where I was considering voting him (without any investigative role impetus at least), I'd be re-evaluating some of my previous townreads as well.

I don't really think Elie refusing to c/d is indicative but I'll think about it more in the shower tomorrow.

[eclipse]

Oh yeah Eclipse, when you get back, can you find where Baldrick was complaining about his teammates not being there or whatever? I checked his ISO but didn't see it and it's KIND OF important to who I'm voting.

IIRC I said something about Baldrick complaining about the strength of the mafia. Hence why I'm not suspecting Mitsuki, because mafia PGO is OP.

@eclipse- baldrick complains, yeah, but he doesn't say they're inactive? Plus it was right before Baldrick modkilled himseld tactically so I don't know if it's even a trustworthy post.

That modkill tells me that he has no faith in his team. Which is why I'm willing to believe his complaints.

Oh yeah, if you're still on, what did you think about SSG and Elie not confirming or denying whether mafia's kill would be randomized? I feel like he would have done it (especially if there's one mafia left, because they'd get bodied even harder) but that just warrants an actual ISO of the dude.

Or perhaps the kill was sent in ahead of time (which is what I do with my actions when the phase end time is weird and I know I won't be around).

fuck you forum code

If this was any other subforum, that would probably net a warn. . .but I'm tired of being a mod in a mafia game, and that previous post is so badly formatted that I'll respond to it with this quote. Actual Post, for reference.

I have a case on both of them. I expect them to both participate in the discussion (probably against me) and I'll vote. I came into the day suspecting Izhuark and wondering where the fuck another slot was; my read on BBM didn't change until he cased me, so no I'm not as confident there.

I'll vote, but not yet. Before it's pointed out: the difference between this and what Eury did (which bothered me) is that I didn't RVS vote then talk about someone else. I will follow through with the read if Shin doesn't articulate more. I can't see the situation changing much.

BBM's since posted Stuff, and Shin. . .hasn't.

I don't recall him insisting he actually did this. It would be a terrible argument as any alignment, though. It seems weird to remember Hunger Games but not this after being prodded.

I don't think it's too far out of the realm of possibility that he forgot (I've seen it in other games). IMO that's a null tell.

It means he at least isn't responsible for any fuckery that may have happened in N2. It doesn't infallibly indicate alignment.

This raises two possibilities, both of which I will tie back to Baldrick's complaints about numbers:

1. There really are three people in the mafia: That means that SSG wouldn't have been able to send in an action, meaning that he either sent it in early, or it would be up to the host to decide what to do with an inactive mafia. If I was hosting, that would count as a No Kill, since Baldrick's modkill meant that the day was cut short.

2. There's more than three people in the mafia: SSG being gone for the night is null, as an active teammate could've covered for him.

If you think the first scenario is likely, there's a small chance that he's clear on numbers/lack of foresight. If you believe the second scenario is correct, then I'm willing to buy your argument.

I thought Eury was the obvious big one. She's ded. Izhuark then didn't elaborate on anything I wanted him to elaborate on before he subbed out.

I'll (tentatively) buy this, only because Izhuark had requested the sub-out, and you would've been in the exact same spot had you voted for him at that time. Once Shin subbed in and posted something, that argument went out the window.

---

Still not really reading SSG as scum, but that's because of Blitz's actions, not SSG's. Associative clearing is weak, but that's the best I can do.

I feel a bit better about Crysta (I want to see what you have to say about BBM, though), so. . .

##Unvote

Shin needs to get in here and say something relevant, the sooner the better. Izhuark still isn't looking good in my eyes.

[eclipse]

. . .that feel when you realized that you forgot something.

I don't mind giving Shin the next 24 hours to produce something (because subbing sucks), but if I still see RVS levels of content, I'll gladly lynch him.

[Crysta]

But I still don't see why you voted for SSG out of all the lurkers. Okay, he was online and didn't post. Why not vote izhuark, who was a lurker you actually had more issues with? this was before shin subbed in iirc.

I knew Izhuark was being subbed in coming into the day and I was actually confused when I saw Izhuark on the userlist watching. I didn't see the harm in voting elsewhere at the start and I still don't, really.

Also, by "null reads are lame" idk if you mean that you have a null read on him and that's lame, or he has a lot of null reads.

Still having a null read on someone in D3 is lame.

Also yeah you followed up to Eury's reply but it's not really addressed directly to her? This may be semantic but it seems as if you were speaking about her, not to her, past your initial vote post anyways.

Really? Because I remember asking her questions because she replied and being actually far more focused on what she had to say.

Yeah this post was definitely doing that, while the others were mostly addressing Baldrick if I remember correctly. Who apparently rly wanted me dead.

Maybe asserting it's not "relevant" is the right word; more like her latter content didn't sway me but didn't seem damning. Being annoyed at Life is more of a human tell than a scum or town tell, imho.

Aaand BBM's new content is making me doubt my previous read on him and I have to re-read stuff. I'll be around unless something unforeseen happens.

[The3rdCorinthian]

Urrgghhhhh..... My enthusiasm for this game has plummetted, I think I now understand what SB was talking about when he entioned it. I've forgotten most of my reads as well. I'll be back on here in say 3 hours, do some stuff. But I need to do some not mafia real life stuff first.

Sorry for not being very active recently.

[Shin]

OK, now I've had my own personal RVS, I can probably do something more fun for you guys! It's not a self-vote, I swear! I kinda fell asleep all day yesterday, and I have work soon so it's not going to be an amazing post.

- I can't really comment on any of Izhuark's posts, I literally have no idea what his brain was up to. From the looks of it, he picked an RVS and then waffled! Me replacing him seems pretty fitting!

Looking over the current day just so I'm up to speed, I'll try and handle the first two after I get back from work.

- Not too sure what I think about Mitsuki's lie about targeting people. I guess it was harmless in the grand scheme of things but hey.

- Just because confirmed scum votes someone doesn't mean that their vote target is town.

- kirsche did have a lot to say about Refa, although I'm not quite feeling that it was a fear kill. kirsche came across as fairly towny in D1, so he was probably the safest choice of a kill. Not saying that my bro isn't scum, but I wouldn't say kirsche's death is a massive point against him.

One thing that I do agree with is that Refa seems kinda off. He feels far more defensive than usual but I do think that Refa wouldn't be stupid enough to announce that he has scumkills as scum. I feel that his question to Eli regarding the motivator was more of a hypothetical one. Especially with regards to his explanation later.

I can kinda get the votes of Iz, he didn't really do much and his interactions aren't phenominal. You probably ask yourself now, "Shin, what am your reads?". I don't really have much but;

- 3rd voted Blitz early and I don't think he would try and screw his own team over like that - especially if he had contact with them. His play's a little confused, I feel he's still getting to grips with mafia but even someone new would figure out not to vote for their scumbuddies.

- For the same reasons, I don't think SB would doom Baldrick, especially after losing Blitz. I also generally get a feel that he's trying to do stuff, he's asking questions and participating in discussions.

- The Prims/Snike slot really bothers me. Ignoring the vote on me, which kinda makes a little sense maybe, it looks like Snike just wants to get rid of a few peeps, I don't feel any real conviction in his reads other than "well, we need to get rid of someone". Prims' attitude throughout the game seems really off too, and I know this sounds bad but losing a scumbuddy to a modkill sounds like the perfect way to get demotivated.

I would do more but I have to WORK. Stoopid not being able to mooch off the system.

##Unvote

##Vote: Snike

This is more of a placeholder than anything else, I don't have a better vote and I need more time to try and get an understanding of the others.

[Refa]

Shin, whenever you get back, you should ISO BBM and SSG.

I'm fine with Shin's post. There's a lack of scumreads but it's understandable enough. Would like something else before the end of the day but yeah.

Reread SSG and he's not scum. I was worried that I was dismissing him too easily after Elie replied (asked BBM about it since I didn't know what to make of it but he's probably right), but his interactions with both of the flipped scum read as natural and nothing else stands out.

BBM's first post is fine (issues with his postmortem Kirsche read aside) but what made your SSG read change between now and then? Also I think he'd get more mad at the votes on him today as scum/focus on them more because they were pretty lame. Not bothered by the Crysta case itself but that his scumread on Izhuark seemed stronger (I mean, you said you'd lynch him) and yet he held onto the vote anyways. Explain? Also confused about your LG/Eclipse read. Do you think LG's scuminess outweighs your Eclipse townread? Everything else is good, and I don't see him being so indecisive as scum (it's not the same as leaving his options open).

Okay, something that's bothering me about 3rd is that he's claiming that he never reached his targets but 1) Noone would target him with a roleblocking role as town (okay, I might be wrong here but I don't remember any lingering suspicions on him after D2 besides LG/Eclipse) 2) The scum roleblocker is dead and if scum had a safeguard, why would they have used it on SB and not whoever they were killing 3) SB can't be an ascetic. Even if scum had some role that influenced this, why would they block him somehow but not Eclipse (the counterpart here would be that Eclipse is scum but I don't think so)? It seems really inconsistent. Bodyguard is kind of a shit claim for mafia though (also I'm not sure if he'd fake blocked flavor as scum) but mreh. Probably should do a more indepth ISO of him but some of his comments regarding Baldrick (like using an SK for town sided kills, which I don't feel like a newer player would be comfortable doing) were really bad.

ISO'd Snike and while I agree with Shin that his actual votes are pretty lackluster, I don't think he'd care about roles so much or use them as his primary reason to case people (which would easily backfire on him as scum). I dunno, seriously considering outing my role at this point because it seems like a bit much with other peoples' roles.

##Unvote

##Vote: 3rd

[Refa]

You know what, screw it. Scum isn't likely going to kill me anyways, so I'm just going to throw this out there and see if it helps other people more than it helps me. I'm a BPV/PPV (breaks if either of those break; also all of my posts are probably suddenly starting to make sense to others). I was fine with 3rd's role yesterday (and also wasn't sure if LG/Eclipse were a full time watcher at the time), but it seems kind of uh too much when combined with a hijacker and a watcher. If you have any questions, feel free to ask me, but that's what I got out of it.

Also Eclipse, that's why I asked if Hijacker was considered a protective role. Yesterday, I thought there was a Town Hooker (or at least a JoaT) and when combined with my role, it would definitely be ridiculous (even for Elie games); I'd have been more comfortable voting Gilgamesh if you'd said yes.

[BBM]

wait what

I'm a Doctor (who empowers his target on N1). I was hesitantly okay with BG + Doc + Watcher in a #Eliegame since I thought Corinthian's outburst upon being prodded by Life was townie, but I can't see BG + Doc + BPV + Watcher all existing. BPV is passive so it can't circlejerk like the others but it's still becoming too much.

Also what's a PPV?

Shin's post isn't... bad, but it's not that impressive and all his reads just seem really back-and-forth, particularly on Refa. I'm not really seeing where Refa was that defensive either? He brings up a good point against Snike I guess, but the Prims modkill point is bad bc Baldrick was getting lynched anyways. The modkill helped scum by cutting the phase short and, obfuscating Baldrick's story (and also Life got modkilled too) idk overall this post is just kind of overall blah. The post doesn't change my opinion of the slot as a whole.

@Refa- I don't know what you mean wrt to SSG? In my sub-in post I was null about SSG I think, and then in my next post about him I said that I didn't see the cases on him. Then yesterday night I said I thought he was town. I guess it's an escalation from "not scum" to "town" but it's not really a change in read?

Also, I swear I thought I'd changed my vote to Izhuark/Shin because I've been more suspicious of Izhuark than Crysta since around #695 but uh I guess I didn't. gg

##Unvote, ##Vote: Shin for now I guess but it would probably be more prudent to lynch between myself/Corinthian/Eclipse/Refa.

On one hand I'm leaning towards Eclipse bc I think Corinthian and Refa have been townier but I also think that Corinthian's role is fisher wrt rolespec at this point? Plus as I said earlier scum didn't try to kill Corinthian?

The whole random-kill thing is something I'm not fully agreeing with. If one of Eury/Zero was killed N2 and the other was poisoned N1, that means there are two night phases of questionable targets, including one when Baldrick was alive. I guess if it was an ITP poisoning on N1, maybe it leaves a random-kill open but ehhh.

Also, Baldrick has a history of tactical modkills when he's about to be lynched (as either alignment in fact, see: Spellcard) so I'm really taking his pre-modkill actions with a grain of salt, especially because Elie hasn't confirmed whether Baldrick was telling the truth about his role or not. >_>

[BBM]

deciding how much of a role type is too much would be way easier if Elie hadn't previously hosted a game where town had a Rolecop, Cop, and Trackerwatcher

[Refa]

Poison Proof Vest.

[SB.]

Busy atm (I have an interview to go to in like... 1 hour) but BBM, what's the point in claiming if you think there's too much protection and then voting a slot that hasn't even claimed?

I'm tempted to call for a massclaim to break this thing open but I feel like we're too late in the day for that now so we should finish it off tomorrow.

[SB.]

(fwiw my role is ALSO kind of protective although i could see it co-existing with literally any of the individual roles claimed so far)

[Refa]

BBM claiming and then voting Shin is weird but I don't see him claiming like that as scum ever. Rolewise BBM's is worse with 3rd's. Ordinarily I'd say Doc/Watcher is broken but scum at least had a full time ninja* to help them out.

*Again, assuming Baldrick is telling the truth.

[SB.]

I don't feel like fullninja counters docwatcher hard enough tbh because all of the power is in one scum role. How is BBM's role worse than standard BG?