Arena Discussion Thread (inc. Assault)

[SakuraFish]

Got a Score of 4796 for a deathless advanced streak. Team was 5*Titania+1, 5*Hector, 5*Lilina and 5*Sharena. Getting lucky enough to pull a second Titania for a merge upped my Score quite a bit compared to the last season. Instead of getting 680-682 per average I got 684-688 to show up consistently. My Score could have been a tad higher, but I'm not ready to burn through my Crests to reset for higher points per Match for maybe 500 Feathers more. Current Rank is 512, but it will drop down quite a bit. Just hoping that it will stay barely inside the 5k for that extra 500 Feathers.
The battles were surprisingly easy for me compared to the last season, but that may be due to changing up my Team. Only somewhat difficult battle was a TriHector-Reinhardt Combo. While Rein got baited into Titania, bringing actually down the Hectors was quite tricky, due to Lilina not being able to OHKO them just barely. Hector had to lure them in, and weaken them enough for Lilina to grab the kill, with Titania shuffling the HP around afterwards because of course they all had Vantage. I guess thats what I get for not running any Atk. Buffs in my Team, I will probably change that flaw for the next season though.

Spoiler

 

Edited May 2, 2017 by SakuraFish
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[Clogon]

8 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

I mean, if Zephiel takes enough hits that his durability starts to matter, something went horribly wrong. If he didn't start with L&D, then sure, Atk +3 is good, but he did, so putting Atk +3 on him requires a 4* sacrifice just to get some minor bulk in exchange for minor durability damage loss.

 

Edit: Basically, he either wants boat-loads more durability, in which case you go Def + 3 or TA (1\2\3 are all fine), or he doesn't care, in which case he goes L&D 0\1\2\3. (Depending on ratio of Atk to Bulk desired, L&D is really flexible, since level 1 trades 3 for 3).

You could also sacrifice a S!Chrom for +2 ATK and +2 Def. Sadly I only have one of them. :(

[Korath88]

8 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

I mean, if Zephiel takes enough hits that his durability starts to matter, something went horribly wrong. If he didn't start with L&D, then sure, Atk +3 is good, but he did, so putting Atk +3 on him requires a 4* sacrifice just to get some minor bulk in exchange for minor durability damage loss.

 

Edit: Basically, he either wants boat-loads more durability, in which case you go Def + 3 or TA (1\2\3 are all fine), or he doesn't care, in which case he goes L&D 0\1\2\3. (Depending on ratio of Atk to Bulk desired, L&D is really flexible, since level 1 trades 3 for 3).

I don't see 2 Atk for -5 Def/Res as a fair tradeoff. Also, you underestimate the sheer amount of Cherches I pulled looking for Hector. Atk+3 is readily available for me.

It's a lot different in practice, the extra 5 Def and Res saved my streak from quite a few units, such as a Tharja (couldn't 2rko) and a wings of mercy Julia that would have finished Zephiel off if he didn't have that extra 5 res.

[Crushie]

On 1.5.2017 at 3:24 AM, L9999 said:

Nowi eats Falchion users for breakfast. She gets Swordbreaker+Triangle Adept and dragonstone does magic damage, targeting the Falchion crew's ass resistance.

Ah didn't know she could get Swordbreaker (well not that I have anyone who has it right now that I'm willing to sacrifice), thanks might try it out in the future when I have the skill fodder that's needed!

However Lukas fits my playstyle more because I've made a habit of choking in heroes and he is even tanking some axe units (I know this isn't that convincing when pitting him against Nowi but meh I'm bad at explaining when tired :(

Edit: Does anyone have some tips for a defensive team? For two seasons I haven't gotten a defensive score but before that I had no problem getting at least one.

My current defense team is: 

5* Seliph 

5* Julia

5* Nowi

4* Olivia

Some characters I have:

Spoiler

 

Edited May 2, 2017 by Crushie

[Fei Mao]

@Ice Dragon@DehNutCase@MrSmokestack@BANRYU@MaskedAmpharos and anyone else that does heavy analysis here, what are your thoughts on this tier list?

It seems solid and currently has 900+ upvotes on the FEH subreddit, so I'm just curious on what you guys think of it since I like reading differing opinions on stuff.

[Xaos Steel Wing]

26 minutes ago, Crushie said:

Does anyone have some tips for a defensive team? For two seasons I haven't gotten a defensive score but before that I had no problem getting at least one.

My current defense team is: 

5* Seliph 

5* Julia

5* Nowi

4* Olivia

Switch out Seliph and Olivia. Seliph is very slow and will be doubled by most units people will have, ranged units will take him out easily without taking any damage. The AI doesn't always use dancer very well either. I would recommend 2 melee and 2 ranged units.

I find that I get top tier defense score no matter what team I put out, but I usually have 2 melee units of different colors and 2 ranged units, at least one of which is an archer.

[Korath88]

1 hour ago, Fei Mao said:

@Ice Dragon@DehNutCase@MrSmokestack@BANRYU@MaskedAmpharos and anyone else that does heavy analysis here, what are your thoughts on this tier list?

It seems solid and currently has 900+ upvotes on the FEH subreddit, so I'm just curious on what you guys think of it since I like reading differing opinions on stuff.

The first 2 tiers are fine, but almost everything beyond that is a mess. I would go into further detail, but I don't have the time right now.

Edit: you know what, I think I will go into detail.

First 2 tiers are fine because the units there are so brain dead easy to build that everyone knows how good they are. Though tbh, I think they could be fused into one tier. (Or bump Reinhardt and the dancers to tier 1?)

Everything beyond that mostly depends on how much time you spent trying to make the unit work, and it's blatantly obvious where the tier list Writers' biases lie.

Out of the units I've used extensively, I can safely say that Alm and Michalis being rated so low is a really bad joke. It's painfully obvious that whoever wrote Alm's page has never used him before (I maintain my stance that anyone who thinks Chrom is a better unit than Alm is drunk). I'm also sure that @Ice Dragon would have something to say about Sophia's extremely low tier rating.

There's probably many more problems with that list I haven't mentioned. Simply put, theorycrafting alone will almost never give you an accurate gauge of a unit's strength. You need to actually use the unit to get a proper feel of how good they are, and it's hilarious how these tier lists discourage players from investing into underrated units, which then leads to more circlejerking.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Korath88

[LordFrigid]

Score is 4930. I'll see what the rank comes out to later today...

Faced an interesting team as my very first match: mono-blue, with +10 Ninian and Nowi, and +4 Reinhardt and Olwen. That's probably the first mono-blue team I've ever seen (at least, that I can remember). Fury/Vantage Nino ate them all alive for probably the most cakewalk match I've ever had. Yay for facetanking Dire Thunder =P .

[MrSmokestack]

1 hour ago, Fei Mao said:

@Ice Dragon@DehNutCase@MrSmokestack@BANRYU@MaskedAmpharos and anyone else that does heavy analysis here, what are your thoughts on this tier list?

It seems solid and currently has 900+ upvotes on the FEH subreddit, so I'm just curious on what you guys think of it since I like reading differing opinions on stuff.

A quick note, I don't pay too much attention to tier lists. Inheritance makes the majority of units much easier to use than before, but it also places a great deal of emphasis on bases, especially for ones that run hyper-offensive Brave sets, where every last bit of Atk counts.

That said, my first gripe with it is how Reinhardt is not at the very top. His matchup spread, when optimized, is as close as you're going to get to a perfect spread in this game, and that's with just inheriting Death Blow and Lancebreaker.

Meanwhile, I personally believe Quadsuna is an overrated set that is done much better by Takumi, Jeorge, and Kein, simply because of their higher base Atk; latter two archers should get the bump accordingly. Spring-Lucina is functionally similar to Blárblade Linde, though her merge advantage doesn't really exist anymore now that Linde is in focus and she isn't. Cordelia and Peri have limited utility outside of Brave sets, but they're the best in their movement class at it, especially with +6 Hone buffs. Lastly, an optimized Olwen (LaD / Desperation / the works) supposedly has an even better matchup spread than Reinhardt, though there's a lot of work that goes into it before it can really shine. The rankings don't seem to give much regard for -Raven Adept users like Sophia or Soren, either, which is disappointing.

Overall, the tier list kind of just states the obvious, with the Distant Counter units at the top simply because they are a better base to work with for inheritance, while mostly everything else is at the bottom. It's hard to draw a line between anything Tier 3 and lower when they haven't recieved as much exposure. Case in point: I'd genuinely like to see a Beruka or Laslow analysis. I'm not even joking.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

11 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

A quick note, I don't pay too much attention to tier lists. Inheritance makes the majority of units much easier to use than before, but it also places a great deal of emphasis on bases, especially for ones that run hyper-offensive Brave sets, where every last bit of Atk counts.

That said, my first gripe with it is how Reinhardt is not at the very top. His matchup spread, when optimized, is as close as you're going to get to a perfect spread in this game, and that's with just inheriting Death Blow and Lancebreaker.

Meanwhile, I personally believe Quadsuna is an overrated set that is done much better by Takumi, Jeorge, and Kein, simply because of their higher base Atk; latter two archers should get the bump accordingly. Spring-Lucina is functionally similar to Blárblade Linde, though her merge advantage doesn't really exist anymore now that Linde is in focus and she isn't. Cordelia and Peri have limited utility outside of Brave sets, but they're the best in their movement class at it, especially with +6 Hone buffs. Lastly, an optimized Olwen (LaD / Desperation / the works) supposedly has an even better matchup spread than Reinhardt, though there's a lot of work that goes into it before it can really shine. The rankings don't seem to give much regard for -Raven Adept users like Sophia or Soren, either, which is disappointing.

Overall, the tier list kind of just states the obvious, with the Distant Counter units at the top simply because they are a better base to work with for inheritance, while mostly everything else is at the bottom. It's hard to draw a line between anything Tier 3 and lower when they haven't recieved as much exposure. Case in point: I'd genuinely like to see a Beruka or Laslow analysis. I'm not even joking.

 

Te first thing i got from the Tier list is Olivia, Ninian, and Azura not being Tier 1

[MrSmokestack]

Just now, JSND said:

 

Te first thing i got from the Tier list is Olivia, Ninian, and Azura not being Tier 1

I dun goofed. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Elieson]

2 hours ago, Fei Mao said:

@Ice Dragon@DehNutCase@MrSmokestack@BANRYU@MaskedAmpharos and anyone else that does heavy analysis here, what are your thoughts on this tier list?

It seems solid and currently has 900+ upvotes on the FEH subreddit, so I'm just curious on what you guys think of it since I like reading differing opinions on stuff.

My first impression? GamePress still has outdated information. They're not qualified to post a Tier List 6 tiers, to Top/High/UpperMid/LowerMid/Low/Bottom

• IMO Tharja is not in the same tier as Nino/Linde (and should be either bottom in hers or just one tier down), [high] because running her means that you aren't running a sword to check Hector, or if you are, then you're running a sub-par team in tandem with her + a sword. If the meta shifts then I can see her jumping up but as of right now, running a sword is albeit required and running two reds is albeit suicide.
• Reinhardt literally defines Cavalry Emblem, and him not being in Top is a disgrace.
• Corrin!F being in UpperMid tier requires running a powerful team to capitalize on her Debuffs, and her combat is safe not great. She lags behind far from Nowi because of 1-range and IMO just isn't powerful enough to be enough of a threat, given that half of the maps in the damn arena don't even allow for others to reliably make alternative adjacent combat. I'd drop her a tier.
• Anna should drop from UpperMid to LowerMid as well. She's a hassle to use and requires extremely careful play, which are not qualities of an upper-half tier list unit. Even with teleportation as a free B skill, it's as hassle when blues still harass her hard with WTD.
• Sharena meanwhile, should be bumped up from UpperMid to High. She performs very well even without inheritance vs many of the top tiers and high tiers, and Fensalir's innate Threaten Atk couples well with her stat spread allowing her to push a support role with her innate skills. Her 32 speed is neutral but incredibly safe. She lacks the power presence of a strong Brave Lance threat like Effie but she has an overall team support role that can make real contributions over say, F!Corrin who supports via Debuff and not damage mitigation for counter strats (arguably the safer one).
• Quadsuna is definitely a LowerMid tier unit. Her shifty strength, even with DeathBlow, can get walled out by so many more units over Klein/Jeorge and their higher Str, and with as expensive as she is, I don't see the same value in running her. This is more of a personal thing tho tbh.
• Cecilia and S!Camilla are mandatory units for optimal Cavalry/Flier emblem (S!Camilla is albeit mandatory), but should not be this low. Sure, they don't perform that great on their own without a dedicated supporting team, but Cavalry boasts the best support options in the game with X-Blade tomes. There's no reason why these are in LowerMid, and should be High at worst.

So:

Tharja ↓ to UpperMid

Reinhardt ↑↑ to Top

Corrin!F ↓ to LowerMid

Anna ↓ to LowerMid

Sharena ↑ to High

Setsuna ↓ to Low

S!Camilla/Cecilia ↑↑ to UpperMid

 

I'd say Dancers need to go up but i think that in terms of Arena Ranking, they actually drop the score, so I'm not sure how to evaluate them. Azura > Ninian > Olivia is still the standard but I can see arguments for Top and for High tier placement.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Elieson

[MrSmokestack]

6 minutes ago, Elieson said:

My first impression? GamePress still has outdated information. They're not qualified to post a Tier List

I'd say Dancers need to go up but i think that in terms of Arena Ranking, they actually drop the score, so I'm not sure how to evaluate them. Azura > Ninian > Olivia is still the standard but I can see arguments for Top and for High tier placement.

Oh no, I'm with you on this one. Gamepress isn't a very reliable source given they also juggle around other metagames on their site.

No one really knows how Dancers affect the score, but otherwise there's no denying the sheer utility they bring to a team. Rating them based on combat performance is something I disagree with, though, because ideally they shouldn't ever be attacking, hence Azura's offense lead doesn't matter. And in terms of bulk? Ninian beats out both, and Dark Breath + T-Adept is better than Sapphire Lance + Fury, if you want to argue that.

[wizzard of soz]

according to that list, my team is trash tier except for Olivia. agree about the whole Chrom not belonging there, and Alm being bumped up. personally i think M Corrin should be bumped up too but maybe i'm biased.

[Elieson]

2 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

No one really knows how Dancers affect the score, but otherwise there's no denying the sheer utility they bring to a team. Rating them based on combat performance is something I disagree with, though, because ideally they shouldn't ever be attacking, hence Azura's offense lead doesn't matter. And in terms of bulk? Ninian beats out both, and Dark Breath + T-Adept is better than Sapphire Lance + Fury, if you want to argue that.

But that's just it. If a Dancer can Fight, then that's even better. Azura can hold her own against many reds, and Olivia can check Hector with a Ruby Sword (which is a very cheap investment, given how common Palla/Hinata/Stahl are in the 3* Swordie pool. Ninian can acquire 2 range and has fair enough stats to offer a counter/kill for targeting res here and there. They have combat niches, so how you'd categorize which dancer within the pool is better is entirely based on weapon type and combat potential. If you're running Ruby!Olivia, you can afford to not run any more red units and be alright. If you're running Ninian or Azura, you still probably want another qualifed Blue, depending on who you have. 

[MrSmokestack]

7 minutes ago, Elieson said:

But that's just it. If a Dancer can Fight, then that's even better. Azura can hold her own against many reds, and Olivia can check Hector with a Ruby Sword (which is a very cheap investment, given how common Palla/Hinata/Stahl are in the 3* Swordie pool. Ninian can acquire 2 range and has fair enough stats to offer a counter/kill for targeting res here and there. They have combat niches, so how you'd categorize which dancer within the pool is better is entirely based on weapon type and combat potential. If you're running Ruby!Olivia, you can afford to not run any more red units and be alright. If you're running Ninian or Azura, you still probably want another qualifed Blue, depending on who you have. 

Hmm.

Which one is better then, exactly? If they all offer unique combat potential, then choosing which Dancer to run depends on the rest of your team; in other words, choosing Olivia because you have no other reds wouldn't make Ninian or Azura objectively "worse", they just don't fit the team as well.

Judging by combat potential, the point of contention in the ratings would end up being between Ninian and Azura, assuming all resources are free; one targets Res and trades offenses for bulk while the other targets Def and has a differing spread to match. Otherwise, they could just as well all be rated the same. 

I̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶A̶s̶s̶i̶s̶t̶ ̶"̶D̶a̶n̶c̶e̶"̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶i̶t̶s̶ ̶o̶w̶n̶ ̶u̶n̶i̶t̶,̶ ̶w̶e̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶b̶l̶e̶m̶.̶

[Arcanite]

2 hours ago, Fei Mao said:

@Ice Dragon@DehNutCase@MrSmokestack@BANRYU@MaskedAmpharos and anyone else that does heavy analysis here, what are your thoughts on this tier list?

It seems solid and currently has 900+ upvotes on the FEH subreddit, so I'm just curious on what you guys think of it since I like reading differing opinions on stuff.

PSA

THIS IS ALMOST THE SAME TIER LIST AS THE WIKI

Anything you say about this, applies to that also!

31 minutes ago, Elieson said:

My first impression? GamePress still has outdated information. They're not qualified to post a Tier List

GamePress got this list from the wiki so really they're "Information" is the same!

Edited May 2, 2017 by Arcanite

[wizzard of soz]

1 minute ago, Arcanite said:

PSA

THIS IS THE SAME TIER LIST AS THE WIKI

Anything you say about this, applies to that also!

GamePress got this list from the wiki so really they're "Information" is the same!

it's similar, but the one thing i complained about, which is Chrom being a tier above Alm and M Corrin, isn't true for the wiki. on the wiki, Chrom is in the same tier as M Corrin and Alm. there may be some other small differences too, i'm too tired to check. or maybe the inheritance tier list has been changed since the GamePress thing was posted?

[MaskedAmpharos]

@Fei Mao Oh boy, here we go (I'm in class rn, so this won't be as in-depth as it would be otherwise)

First off, dancers should be in Tier 1, period. There is absolutely no other unit in the game that comes close to replicating the sheer amount of flexibility they offer a team, and they are absolutely game-changing. 

Secondly, the fact that Reinhardt is not Tier 1 is absolutely blasphemous. He has nearly the same win spread as Effie if they both run optimal sets, but he has triple the mov and double the range and also access to cavalry buffs. Effie's main thing over Reinhardt is that she can tank hits better, but if you position properly (and/or make good use of dancers/repositioning skills), Reinhardt should never need to get hit in the first place. They should at the very least be in the same tier. 

There are a couple of other things I take issue with, but I'm not going to sit here and go into detail about each and every one of them. I do want to note, however, that Sharena should be moved up while Eirika should be moved down. Sharena tanks reds and blues about just as well as Ephraim does, but she also offers a lot of team support that Ephraim does not (depending on what set he runs). Also, with skill inheritance, Eirika is no longer the prime support unit, since Ephraim can run the exact same set as her but is actually usable as a combat unit whereas Eirika's combat is rather lackluster in comparison. 

Spring Lucina should be moved up to Linde's tier because they are functionally equivalent when running equal sets, and reddit stated in the making of their tier list that they were not taking merge levels and availability into account. 

As much as I love Soren as a character, he should honestly be down a tier while Alm and Lukas deserve to be moved up. Just in general, it seems like this tier list places a lot more emphasis on offensive characters rather than defensive ones. Lukas and Michalis, for example, are extremely effective with a Killer + QR + Bonfire set, but the tier list does not seem to care much for defensive characters who excel by baiting on enemy phase. Also Sophia? I don't think she's a top tier unit, sure, but she's most certainly not bad enough to be as low as she is. @Ice Dragon would probably like to exchange some words with the author of this tier list. 

Lastly, what on earth is up with where they put Cecilia, Ursula, and Spring Camilla? I understand their reasoning of "they only truly excel with movement-specific buffs, and we aren't taking team support into account", but even without cavalry/flier buffs, Cecilia/Ursula/S!Camilla with blade tomes are still fantastic units, just not as amazing as they are with movement type buffs. However, I have mixed feelings about how they organized the tier list in the first place. While I understand wanting to try and focus on each unit individually, Fire Emblem Heroes is a team game. Ignoring the effectiveness of running certain teams (such as blade Cecilia on a cavalry team) on a tier list is, in my opinion, foolish because it does not accurately represent a character's strength within the context of the game.

This tier list ranks units in a vacuum (and even within that vacuum I have problems), but Fire Emblem Heroes is not played within a vacuum. Ranking characters as such betrays the fundamental core of the game.

[Arcanite]

7 minutes ago, wizzard of soz said:

it's similar, but the one thing i complained about, which is Chrom being a tier above Alm and M Corrin, isn't true for the wiki. on the wiki, Chrom is in the same tier as M Corrin and Alm. there may be some other small differences too, i'm too tired to check. or maybe the inheritance tier list has been changed since the GamePress thing was posted?

Edited my post to say "almost the same"

Even so, a lot of things are remarkably similar!

[Ledrert]

Got a 4510 score with the same team of M!Robin, Alm+1(Warding Blow, Spd+1), Hana(Brave Sword+, L&D, Spd+1) and Michalis (Fury 2, Hp+3), all 5*.

Got 4 deaths... Thanks to have, first, the same map three on a row (the one with the walls at east and weast), with the third time with a full-Fury team with Ninian and Nino... the two of them plus Anna got M!Robin and Hana. I screwed up here.

Second, last map with two Drag Back units and a f*cking Nino again, on a too more open map (the one with walls like Chess). Almost lost three units, but Hana suvived to Nowi thanks to Escutcheon.

I'll need to retry later... For the first time...

[Elieson]

42 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

GamePress got this list from the wiki so really they're "Information" is the same!

*Their

[Arcanite]

6 minutes ago, Elieson said:

*Their

Shut up

Anybody have any teams for Anna? Anything helps!

[MaskedAmpharos]

9 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

Shut up

Anybody have any teams for Anna? Anything helps!

Not sure this is the right thread to ask on, but sure I'll bite

Anna's main weakness is strong red melee units, like Xander or Zephiel, so you want a blue to take care of those (perhaps your M!Robin w/ T-Adept and Swordbreaker). 

She also has great synergy with many common sword units since she herself is good at dealing with blues, especially magical ones with her high res, so running her alongside someone like Lyn or Xander would be pretty effective.

Finally, the last slot is variable. You can never go run with running a dancer for flexibility, so Olivia/Azura are good picks, especially Azura in your case to also deal with sword units on enemy phase (when Robin wouldn't be able to counterattack). You can run a green mage like Nino to help deal with blue mages if you don't want Anna taking all the hits. You can run a unit with Hone/Fortify Cavalry to buff Xander if you choose to run him. There are a lot of possibilities. 

There are other units you can run, of course, but I tried to use examples from what I remember you have in your roster. 

[r4v1sh]

Disconsidering flier emblem, isn't Spring Camilla just essentially better than Soren on the one build that makes them shine? (TAdept Raven). Unless I'm missing something, this is a pretty big oversight. Also underestimating Reinhardt and Owen makes me believe whoevers responsible for that list haven't played this game the last few weeks (they're an huge part of the reason TAdept greens are a thing now).

Also, this tier list repeats this mania of rating some units disregarding their colour, while taking colour into the consideration when rating some others. The mages shouldn't be tied-up just because their attributes look alike. Green axes aside from Hector haven't been doing that great either, even the ones with a nice looking att spread, since many of the blue threats target Res and (mostly) attack from a distance.

But, being fair, the list is right on most accounts. Of course we'll find a lot of little problems with we nitpick, but there's few major ones, IMO. I guess that's always be a problem with tier lists.