New banners announced: Alm's Army/Celica's Army

[Rezzy]

6 hours ago, Oboro! said:

TOMORROW!?

Arcanite will be very happy when they see all the fodder units I pull for them as I search for Delthea!

Arcanite said you like steak for your animal sacrifices, yes?

Hey girl, have you permanently taken over Arcanite's account, or will you be giving it back at some point?

It's always nice to see more parents here; Kiragi was one of my favorite units in Fates, but I think you should have raised him properly, instead of chucking him into the Baby Realm, but that was probably Takumi's fault.  I hope you don't hold it against me, but I'm Nohrian Scum; Leo is my son, although I don't appear much in Fates for whatever reason.

It's nice to see more FE characters joining us on the Forums.  I think @Clarine is around here somewhere.

Yes, I do like Steak.  I also like Ribs or Spaghetti.

[Othin]

26 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

They're extremely consistent in Japanese.

Death Blow is "Fierce Deity Blow".
Darting Blow is "Flying Swallow Blow".
Armored Blow is "Adamantine Blow".
Warding Blow is "Clear Mirror Blow".

Swift Sparrow is "Fierce Deity Flying Swallow Blow".
Sturdy Blow is "Fierce Deity Adamantine Blow".
Mirror Strike is "Fierce Deity Clear Mirror Blow".

 

The problem is that Triangle Adept has both an upside and a downside already. All this does is give it another downside, and "using a skill slot for a skill that does nothing unless your opponent has Triangle Adept" is absurdly good when your only downside is using up a skill slot that you aren't already using. A lot of powerful units, namely Brave weapon users, don't need a B skill, and Cancel Affinity allows them to absurdly easily break through what would otherwise be indestructible walls.

Ahh, the magic of kanji. A pain to learn, but that's what you get in return, I suppose.

And yeah, I agree that CA adds too much of a downside to TA. Like, I run TA-Raven Cecilia on my arena team and she stomps blues so hard I don't need any other way of dealing with them, except now any of them can just bypass that with CA and leave teams like mine with no good answers.

[tumut]

Nice I'm pretty happy but to be honest though they should've had mage Kliff and Valbar on the banners.

Also does anyone know what color tome Delthea is?

[Tybrosion]

1 minute ago, tumut said:

Nice I'm pretty happy but to be honest though they should've had mage Kliff and Valbar on the banners.

Also does anyone know what color tome Delthea is?

Delthea is a blue tome unit.

[r_n]

So I'm a little confused, does Cancel Affinity's ALWAYS reverse disadvantage (or...neutralize it?) or only if there's TA/Jewel weapon?

[Rezzy]

So does Cancel Affinity act like a Weapon Reaver, or does it just act as though the Weapon Triangle is not there?

 

[Ice Dragon]

Just now, r_n said:

So I'm a little confused, does Cancel Affinity's ALWAYS reverse disadvantage (or...neutralize it?) or only if there's TA/Jewel weapon?

Only if both

1. The opponent has Triangle Adept or a gem weapon, and
2. You are at disadvantage.

If you are at advantage or the opponent does not have Triangle Adept or a gem weapon, the skill has no effect (besides always disabling your own Triangle Adept and gem weapon).

 

Just now, Rezzy said:

So does Cancel Affinity act like a Weapon Reaver, or does it just act as though the Weapon Triangle is not there?

It only applies is effect to the bonus given by Triangle Adept, not to the regular weapon triangle modifiers.

I'll edit with a chart.

[LuxSpes]

38 minutes ago, Xaos Steel Wing said:

I think at some point IS made a hard decision that they are not buffing or nerfing existing units/skills/weapons. I think the answer is as simple as that.

As far as I know, Brave+ and Silver+ weapons are only obtainable at 5*. So it's not really a shift.

You need to promote to 5* to inherit those weapons, yes, but before you can promote, you need to summon the unit in question. 3*-4* units are much easier to get than 4*-5* one.

[Rezzy]

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Only if both

1. The opponent has Triangle Adept or a gem weapon, and
2. You are at disadvantage.

If you are at advantage or the opponent does not have Triangle Adept or a gem weapon, the skill has no effect (besides always disabling your own Triangle Adept and gem weapon).

 

It only applies is effect to the bonus given by Triangle Adept, not to the regular weapon triangle modifiers.

I'll edit with a chart.

Does it just go forth as though they did not have the Gem/WTA skill, or does it go ever further and make it as though there's no Weapon Triangle multipliers at all in that case?  So 1.2 vs 0.8 or 1.0 vs 1.0?  Whereas it would normally be 1.4 vs 0.6.

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Does it just go forth as though they did not have the Gem/WTA skill, or does it go ever further and make it as though there's no Weapon Triangle multipliers at all in that case?  So 1.2 vs 0.8 or 1.0 vs 1.0?  Whereas it would normally be 1.4 vs 0.6.

		Without Cancel Affinity	With Cancel Affinity
Advantage	Triangle Adept 3	+40%	+40%
Advantage	Triangle Adept 2	+35%	+35%
Advantage	Triangle Adept 1	+30%	+30%
Advantage	No Triangle Adept	+20%	+20%
Neutral		+0%	+0%
Disadvantage	No Triangle Adept	−20%	−20%
Disadvantage	Triangle Adept 1	−30%	−10%
Disadvantage	Triangle Adept 2	−35%	−5%
Disadvantage	Triangle Adept 3	−40%	−0%

[Rezzy]

3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

 

		Without Cancel Affinity	With Cancel Affinity
Advantage	Triangle Adept 3	+40%	+40%
Advantage	Triangle Adept 2	+35%	+35%
Advantage	Triangle Adept 1	+30%	+30%
Advantage	No Triangle Adept	+20%	+20%
Neutral		+0%	+0%
Disadvantage	No Triangle Adept	−20%	−20%
Disadvantage	Triangle Adept 1	−30%	−10%
Disadvantage	Triangle Adept 2	−35%	−5%
Disadvantage	Triangle Adept 3	−40%	−0%

Is it a B skill?  Can you run both TA and CA and get all the benefit of TA without the drawback?

[Ice Dragon]

Just now, Rezzy said:

Is it a B skill?  Can you run both TA and CA and get all the benefit of TA without the drawback?

It's a B skill, but it negates your own Triangle Adept and your own gem weapon. It has to be your opponent who has Triangle Adept for it to work.

[mcsilas]

Ironic when the day I finally gave Olivia a Ruby Sword, Cancel Affinity is announced.

Part of me thinks the ability is created to make things like GHBs harder in response to those mkv vids using the 3 star Narcian, Stahl, Subakis and Pallas. Will definitely make baiting in choke points much harder in those damn GHBs.

[Book Bro]

Some good characters, I will try for Sonia, Saber, Gray, and Mathilda in that order. The other two would be a bonus but those four are favourites. I feel they wasted the opportunity to make Leon a mounted bow fighter though. 

[DehNutCase]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

The problem is not that people are expecting characters "4 tiers" below Reinhardt to be able to keep up with him. The problem is that Reinhardt is "4 tiers" above nearly everything else and is getting even farther away.

This is the very definition of centralization of the meta where niche builds are a requirement because a specific threat exists that invalidates so many of your other options. All I'm seeing of your suggestions for counters for Cancel Affinity Reinhardt are niche builds, and that's not healthy for a metagame.

I mean, the Tier list goes:

Cavalry Mages

Flying Mages

Mage Units and Cavalry Units

Everything Else

 

Reinhardt happens to benefit from being Cavalry and Mage, but there isn't really a easy way to fix that without buffing Infantry buffs---which would buff mages like crazy, unless it's in the form of +6 buffs to melee weapons. Delthea is a good start, but we need lots of people like her to close the gap between -blade and other weapons. (And even Delthea herself needs an amazing spread to compensate for not running -blade.)

The problem only exists because:

Cavalry have a stat bonus (From stronger buffs)

-Blades are ridiculous.

Nerfs are unlikely, so there either needs to be melee weapons just as ridiculous as -blades, or Infantry stat lines need to be increased to be competitive with Cavalry, so that they can crush mobility with BST advantage.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

This is the very definition of centralization of the meta where niche builds are a requirement because a specific threat exists that invalidates so many of your other options. All I'm seeing of your suggestions for counters for Cancel Affinity Reinhardt are niche builds, and that's not healthy for a metagame.

The Hector build is actually a perfectly generic Hector: He has Vantage, he has special slot free (Bonfire), and panic ploy is one of his best C-slots. I don't like Hector for personal reasons---I just don't like enemy phase units in general---but he's quite good at his job. I had to go niche builds for counters because they were all defensive units. Mages are basically impossible to tank, so builds that tank mages are usually niche.

Builds that kill mages during PP, on the other hand, are a dime a dozen. (And, of course, heavily favor running cavalry, preferably Reinhardts, for easier positioning.)

 

The meta's been pretty favorable to glass cannon PP characters over counter-kill characters for a while now---you happened to run TA3 to get around that problem, I think---but it's not like this patch moved it any more PP focused than before. TA3 got nerfed, but melee weapons got buffed, so crazy bulky BST based tanks (rather than color based tanks) can have very real presence to compensate for TC buffing all-out-offense units. Killers & Effective weapons aren't which benefit offensive units---who tend to have better options in -blade and braves---so it's a straight up defensive unit buff.

[Arcanite]

33 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Hey girl, have you permanently taken over Arcanite's account, or will you be giving it back at some point?

I'm only here temporarily as an assignment from Lord Takumi, bit I'm not sure how long it'll be...

I'm happy to help no matter what though, and I've already met some great people (as well as some Nohrian scum *pukes* but that's beside the point)!

38 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

It's always nice to see more parents here; Kiragi was one of my favorite units in Fates, but I think you should have raised him properly, instead of chucking him into the Baby Realm, but that was probably Takumi's fault.  I hope you don't hold it against me, but I'm Nohrian Scum; Leo is my son, although I don't appear much in Fates for whatever reason.

#BlameTakumi

I'm Heroes Oboro, so I'm still single and I'm not exactly sure who I'm going to be married to once I return to Hoshido (AKA sent home). Great to know that "my child" is in your favor! :)

A part of me doesn't like you for naming your son Leo

47 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

It's nice to see more FE characters joining us on the Forums.  I think @Clarine is around here somewhere.

Don't forget @Catria! as well!

48 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Yes, I do like Steak.  I also like Ribs or Spaghetti.

Great to know! I'll make sure I give you the best of the best!

[Astellius]

11 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

 

		Without Cancel Affinity	With Cancel Affinity
Advantage	Triangle Adept 3	+40%	+40%
Advantage	Triangle Adept 2	+35%	+35%
Advantage	Triangle Adept 1	+30%	+30%
Advantage	No Triangle Adept	+20%	+20%
Neutral		+0%	+0%
Disadvantage	No Triangle Adept	−20%	−20%
Disadvantage	Triangle Adept 1	−30%	−10%
Disadvantage	Triangle Adept 2	−35%	−5%
Disadvantage	Triangle Adept 3	−40%	−0%

It says that any affinity is negated, so wouldn't the "With Cancel Affinity" column for the advantage be just +20%?

[Jedi]

I only really want to pull for Mathlida & Saber haha,

[Rezzy]

7 minutes ago, Oboro! said:

A part of me doesn't like you for naming your son Leo

My son is almost three, and we named him two years before Fates came out.  That's definitely getting some -Atks.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Rezzy

[DehNutCase]

5 minutes ago, Astellius said:

It says that any affinity is negated, so wouldn't the "With Cancel Affinity" column for the advantage be just +20%?

The opponent can have a TA which isn't canceled. CA only cancels your own TA.

[Othin]

5 minutes ago, Astellius said:

It says that any affinity is negated, so wouldn't the "With Cancel Affinity" column for the advantage be just +20%?

It negates your own affinity skills. That chart isn't assuming any affinity skills on the CA user, just on its opponent.

---

I wonder if the expected meta-warping effects of CA are intentional. Player phase builds are much more expensive than enemy phase builds, so nerfing enemy phase builds could be a way to force people to spend more. Which seems pretty obnoxious.

[Arcanite]

Just now, Rezzy said:

My son is almost three, and we named him two years before Fates came out.

Hmmm....

Not sure if I should believe you since you openly said "I'm Nohrian scrum"...

Takes me a while to trust you people....

 

Also, am I the only one who isn't so sure about how well cavalry effective weapons will do? Sure, cavalry team can be a problem for some people, but is it worth the effect since you're losing other types of weapon potential (killer weapons for example)? Meh, all I know is, Delthea is going to change some things heh

[Lushen]

I don't really see the issue with the anti-TA skill.

We have armorslayers and wolf tomes that would make short work of most armored units and horse units, but no one uses them.  Granted, horse emblems are still more powerful with their buffs than the advantage a wolf tome gives, but it's still there.  

No one uses these weapons because they're very specific.  There's no reason to think that everyone will have this skill on all members of their team, they'd be giving up other great skills like DC/CC/Fury/L&D.  

@RezzyLeo is an awesome name.  I love kids names that aren't common, but aren't unheard of either.

edit: apparently Leo is more common than I thought.  There are almost as many of them as people with my name.  Surprising, I've never heard of anyone named Leo.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Lushen

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Death Blow is "Fierce Deity Blow".

"Fierce Deity Blow"? Wheres my double helix sword of darkness and beams up the wazoo on the transformed Christ Child of video games?! And assuming "Fierce Deity" is a translation of the Japanese "Kishin", how long until I pull Bishamonten? I need my wrathful Buddhist gods of justice who scare and beat the excrement out of evil!

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, DehNutCase said:

The Hector build is actually a perfectly generic Hector: He has Vantage, he has special slot free (Bonfire), and panic ploy is one of his best C-slots. I don't like Hector for personal reasons---I just don't like enemy phase units in general---but he's quite good at his job.

The problem is that Hector fails to kill Reinhardt in a single hit without +Atk, and +Atk Hector is not exactly the most accessible thing in the game. Multiple Reinhardts will just murder him because he can't run away. Panic Ploy on a pure Hone Cavalry team only negates Death Blow, meaning Hector still takes 17×2 damage from +Atk Reinhardt, and Hector is dead in 2 rounds of combat.

 

5 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

I had to go niche builds for counters because they were all defensive units. Mages are basically impossible to tank, so builds that tank mages are usually niche.

Which is exactly what Triangle Adept was for. Triangle Adept is the only reason a purely defensive play style was viable at all.

 

7 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

The meta's been pretty favorable to glass cannon PP characters over counter-kill characters for a while now---you happened to run TA3 to get around that problem, I think---but it's not like this patch moved it any more PP focused than before.

Removing enemy phase options increases the proportion of player phase options by dichotomy, so yes, it does make the meta more player-phase focused than before.

While the meta has been favorable to hyper offense, especially with the addition of Elementsweep, it didn't make defensive play obsolete until now.

 

3 minutes ago, Lushen said:

I don't really see the issue with the anti-TA skill.

We have armorslayers and wolf tomes that would make short work of most armored units and horse units, but no one uses them.  Granted, horse emblems are still more powerful with their buffs than the advantage a wolf tome gives, but it's still there.  

No one uses these weapons because they're very specific.  There's no reason to think that everyone will have this skill on all members of their team, they'd be giving up other great skills like DC/CC/Fury/L&D.  

Cancel Affinity is a B skill, not an A skill. Guess who has a free B slot.