Codename Shrimp Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 (edited) What americans think of as ''socialism'' is reality in other largely capitilistic countries with welfare. Healthcare and access to education isn't ''socialism'' Edited November 19, 2020 by Shrimperor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFlames Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Shrimperor said: He is a wise man. Take those lessons to heart, and never be afraid of asking for help 😉 Thank you, Shrimpy! ^^ I do feel a lot better than I did earlier. Edited November 19, 2020 by DragonFlames Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooks Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Benice said: The financial disparity is kind of a good example of some of the problems America has. There are a lot of the profusely rich in America, basically. And they are becoming increasingly distant from the middle class in terms of amount of money. (The middle class is also getting poorer.) Socialism is basically a democratic society where the end goal of the society is for the group, not the individual. Examples of this are higher taxes, meaning higher services, such as public transport, universal healthcare, etc. Characteristics of these kinds of countries are: Lower poverty rates Fewer of the very, very rich Basically, a larger middle class with less financial disparity. Okay okay okay I’m about to make myself look like the dumbest person on the planet BUT the reason I was talking about the financial disparity in America is because I thought socialism was where the government takes the people’s money and redistributes it so... >.< Thank heck I’m not old enough to vote xD I’m gonna do a lot of reading before I vote for the first time... Edited November 19, 2020 by Sooks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFlames Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 4 minutes ago, Shrimperor said: Healthcare and access to education isn't ''socialism'' Truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interdimensional Observer Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 24 minutes ago, Shrimperor said: Humor is the best solution to everything. Even if it sometimes heads into dark humor territory, but that's even better sometims xD I assume you've heard this expression? "In Berlin, things might be Serious, but they were never Hopeless. In Vienna, things might be Hopeless, but they were never Serious." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
null Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Sooks said: Okay okay okay I’m about to make myself look like the dumbest person on the planet BUT the reason I was talking about the financial disparity in America is because I thought socialism was where the government takes the people’s money and redistributes it so... >.< That isn't a completely inaccurate statement. It's just that there's many shades and variations to one philosophy, socialism included. Edited November 19, 2020 by twilitfalchion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooks Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 1 minute ago, twilitfalchion said: That isn't an inaccurate statement. It's just that there's many shades and variations to one philosophy, socialism included. But wouldn’t that make statements like 7 minutes ago, Shrimperor said: What americans think of as ''socialism'' is reality in other largely capitilistic countries with welfare. too generalizing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
null Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 Just now, Sooks said: But wouldn’t that make statements like too generalizing? Again, every worldview and philosophy has countless variations and subgroups. So it would depend on the form of socialism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armagon Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 12 minutes ago, Shrimperor said: What americans think of as ''socialism'' is reality in other largely capitilistic countries with welfare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename Shrimp Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, DragonFlames said: Thank you, Shrimpy! ^^ I do feel a lot better than I did earlier. 👍 12 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said: "In Berlin, things might be Serious, but they were never Hopeless. In Vienna, things might be Hopeless, but they were never Serious." First i hear of this, actually^^ The saying we have for Berlin is ''poor, but sexy'' 11 minutes ago, Sooks said: too generalizing? No. Socialism is something different. There's a difference between social/welfare Policies (which most 1st world countries have) and full on blown socialism. 5 minutes ago, Armagon said: basically this. Edited November 19, 2020 by Shrimperor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 The result of decades of implanting people with that idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
null Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 Tbh, @Sooks, the best way to become politically knowledgeable is to find the most apolitical news sources you can, inform yourself, and then form your own opinions. Don't allow anyone to tell you what you should or should not think. Independent thought is the cornerstone of a free society. Embracing that in your own personal philosophies is the most important aspect of that, in my personal opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooks Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Shrimperor said: No. Socialism is something different. There's a difference between social/welfare Policies (which most 1st world countries have) and full on blown socialism. So you were just referring to welfare policies? Oh. Wow I’m way too uninformed to ask questions about this stuff haha Edited November 19, 2020 by Sooks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename Shrimp Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 3 minutes ago, Sooks said: Wow I’m way too uninformed to ask questions about this stuff haha It's exactly because you are uniformed that you should ask questions! ''There are no idiotic questions, only idiotic answers'' Or so the saying goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interdimensional Observer Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 (edited) Keep in mind Marx would be turning over in his grave at the thought of what Stalin later made socialism into. Marx's original interpretation of socialism had no place for the peasant, industrial workers alone would bring it about. Only towards the end of his life did Marx accept the possibility that a primarily agrarian country could create a classless society. Revolutionaries from agrarian countries didn't care if this later interpretation wasn't Marx's original, because they were too impatient to wait until their countries sufficiently industrialized before they could revolt. Also, Marx criticized the social democrats trying to bring about the nicer ideals of socialism while working within the peaceful framework of democracies, no yucky violent radicalism. "Social democracy" is basically what "Europe" (because the "Europe" American politicians speaks of isn't totally based in reality, it's a thing of the mind with some basis in reality) and modern American progressives want. Going back to radicalism, the post-Stalin USSR and Mao also disagreed on things, to the point of schism and a militarily tense border. Although in this case, it's partly a matter of "old socialism" versus "new socialism". The USSR was by the time Mao conquered China a decades-old people's republic, the youthful fire of revolutionary activity had died out except for like Khrushchev. Mao at the time was still a youthful firebrand promoting continuous revolution, he remained that way until he got old and embittered at the end of the Cultural Revolution, being not so vibrantly radical anymore and wanting peace in old age partly led to his talks with US President Nixon. Castro also started young and yearning for revolution, and in what I guess is human nature, got less active as the years went by, though he did carry out some supportive military action Angola. Edited November 19, 2020 by Interdimensional Observer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFlames Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 7 minutes ago, Sooks said: Wow I’m way too uninformed to ask questions about this stuff haha 1 minute ago, Shrimperor said: It's exactly because you are uniformed that you should ask questions! Can only second this. Being uninformed is the easiest way for people to manipulate you. 3 minutes ago, Shrimperor said: ''There are no idiotic questions, only idiotic answers'' Or so the saying goes. Indeed it does! 8 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said: Tbh, @Sooks, the best way to become politically knowledgeable is to find the most apolitical news sources you can, inform yourself, and then form your own opinions. Don't allow anyone to tell you what you should or should not think. Independent thought is the cornerstone of a free society. Embracing that in your own personal philosophies is the most important aspect of that, in my personal opinion. So, so much yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename Shrimp Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 (edited) TL;DR: Knowledge and Education are Humanity's strongest weapons It's how we broke the Meta of the game we call Life. xD Seriously though, no matter how idealistic things seem, we humans also sadly like to twist things. Ideals, Religions, etc. might sound good on paper, but once a human takes control of them.... Edited November 19, 2020 by Shrimperor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benice Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 2 minutes ago, Sooks said: I thought socialism was where the government takes the people’s money and redistributes it so... >.< Well, to some extent, that is what Socialism is. People with more money will be paying more so that the general public will have more services. This means that the very rich will not be as rich anymore, but at the same time, the lower class also grows smaller. In theory anyways. It basically is redistributing resources so that everyone is closer to equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
null Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Benice said: Well, to some extent, that is what Socialism is. People with more money will be paying more so that the general public will have more services. This means that the very rich will not be as rich anymore, but at the same time, the lower class also grows smaller. In theory anyways. It basically is redistributing resources so that everyone is closer to equal. The potential problem with a system like this is how it hinders the larger companies and industries from being able to fund their workers. Taxing the higher ups more may sound good in theory, but when those same higher ups can't pay their workers the same wages as before, layoffs happen and industry slows. The idea of economic equality is appealing, no doubt. But it's worth mentioning that equality is not equivalent to freedom. It's certainly possible to sacrifice freedom in the name of equality. Edited November 19, 2020 by twilitfalchion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename Shrimp Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said: when those same higher ups can't pay their workers the same wages as before, layoffs happen and industry slows. That's not what happens. What happens is higher ups racking up in profits while layoffs happen. Higher taxes are not the reason why higher ups can't pay workers, it's pure greed. A Balance is needed, i agree, but the current way is in no way balanced Edited November 19, 2020 by Shrimperor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 Just now, twilitfalchion said: The potential problem with a system like this is how it hinders the larger companies and industries from being able to fund their workers. Taxing the higher ups more may sound good in theory, but when those same higher ups can't pay their workers the same wages as before, layoffs happen and industry slows. The idea of economic equality is appealing, no doubt. But it's worth mentioning that equality is not equivalent to freedom. And it's certainly possible to sacrifice freedom in the name of equality. That's an argument they love to use to defend not doing it... but most of the time they do have the money. They do stuff like the layoffs to protect the flow into their pockets, then point and claim the whole thing was the tax's fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benice Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 8 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said: The potential problem with a system like this is how it hinders the larger companies and industries from being able to fund their workers. Taxing the higher ups more may sound good in theory, but when those same higher ups can't pay their workers the same wages as before, layoffs happen and industry slows. The idea of economic equality is appealing, no doubt. But it's worth mentioning that equality is not equivalent to freedom. It's certainly possible to sacrifice freedom in the name of equality. As Shrimpy and Acacia already pointed out, that isn't true. Big businesses are not hurting for money and everything they do is for the biggest possible profit. Better worker's rights would not be amiss in our society as it stands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
null Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 1 minute ago, Benice said: As Shrimpy and Acacia already pointed out, that isn't true. Big businesses are not hurting for money and everything they do is for the biggest possible profit. Better worker's rights would not be amiss in our society as it stands. Say what you will, but it is something that does indeed happen if a path like that is taken. It's not about whether or not they have the money, but such a change doesn't just affect the higher ups. It will move down to the smaller businesses as well. And when one part of society suffers, the rest suffer with it. It's an inevitable outcome according to the laws of economics that have been proven time and again. Don't take my word for it. Read any text on classical economics and you'll understand what I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooks Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 32 minutes ago, DragonFlames said: Can only second this. Being uninformed is the easiest way for people to manipulate you. Oh. Well then... 24 minutes ago, Shrimperor said: TL;DR: Knowledge and Education are Humanity's strongest weapons It's how we broke the Meta of the game we call Life. xD Free thought too OP devs plz nerf 14 minutes ago, Shrimperor said: That's not what happens. What happens is higher ups racking up in profits while layoffs happen. Higher taxes are not the reason why higher ups can't pay workers, it's pure greed. A Balance is needed, i agree, but the current way is in no way balanced I think it depends on how much taxation v how much money they have period. Like very very rich people certainly have a bit of extra that doesn’t go towards life essentials or paying employees... not that all of that should be taken but still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename Shrimp Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 2 minutes ago, Sooks said: Free thought too OP devs plz nerf xD 3 minutes ago, Sooks said: Like very very rich people certainly have a bit of extra that doesn’t go towards life essentials or paying employees... not that all of that should be taken but still. Only the most radical say ''take it all''. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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