Serenes Forest's Teehee Thread

[BrightBow]

1 minute ago, Sooks said:

But, the story is so rarely that good!

Yeah, no. Fates and Awakening are a special flavor of awful that I didn't even believe possible before Awakening's release.

[Shrimpica]

4 minutes ago, Sooks said:

But, the story is so rarely that good!

Yeah i agree, the number of FE games with good story and/or Characters can be counted on one hand.

And even those have something that has to kinda ruin it.

FE needs to let go of Evul Dragons and Dark Cults

[null]

FE recycles a lot of tropes that need to die, tbh. Or if tropes are going to be used, give depth beyond those tropes. 3H was a good start in that way.

[BrightBow]

That's not even subjective.
They made Radiant Dawn's story worse on purpose. Because they actually thought good writing would get in the way of sales.

Although no idea how we ended up with protagonists who are only less contemptible then the villains because they try to bring upon the end of the world for no reason.
Again, nothing against a story being simple. But Awakening went out of it's way to be awful. And that's just disturbing.
Like, it feels like it was written by people who seriously do not understand that one would put value in the life of a human being that you don't personally know.

[Saint Rubenio]

12 minutes ago, Sooks said:

People don’t really play fe for the story.

Wrong. Not sure which side is bigger, but such people definitely exist. Three Houses being so absurdly popular is the best indication of it.

No offense to 3H fans, as always, but it has the least amount of meaningful ganeplay in the series. If no one played these games for the story it would be a lot less beloved.

9 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

Personally I would just settle for characters who are not sociopathic, narcistic butchers who commit murder with such enthusiasm and lightheartedness as if they were the ones playing a video game and not me.

But I guess that's just asking for too much.

Three Houses has less of that... But to compensate, worse avatar pandering than Fates.

That's right, I went there. I know this take's blazing, but let me try to defend myself here. See, Corrin is shown to be a dumbass many times. They get bamboozled often, they lose a couple of people to their blunders (Gunter, Lilith, Mikoto), and they for the most part can't convince opposing retainers and royals to join their army. There's definitely problems with the lack of deaths, but the opposing side clearly hates them for a long stretch of the story (as far as I've made it, at least).

Byleth can convince just about anyone to cast their nation, their dreams and their friends aside because they're just so awesome. They are also always right about everything they do, everyone loves them, they're the key to solving all the problems of all the different protagonists, and at the end of the game they become God Pope Emperor of the world. 

Add to that that Byleth doesn't have a character or even speaks, and well... Personally, I think Corrin's better, now that I've experienced their story first-hand. They're even better as Avatars, thanks to greater customization.

That's been my rant of the day. If you've any insults, by all means, I'll hear them now.

[Punished Dayni]

2 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Three Houses has less of that... But to compensate, worse avatar pandering than Fates.

That's right, I went there. I know this take's blazing, but let me try to defend myself here. See, Corrin is shown to be a dumbass many times. They get bamboozled often, they lose a couple of people to their blunders (Gunter, Lilith, Mikoto), and they for the most part can't convince opposing retainers and royals to join their army. There's definitely problems with the lack of deaths, but the opposing side clearly hates them for a long stretch of the story (as far as I've made it, at least).

Byleth can convince just about anyone to cast their nation, their dreams and their friends aside because they're just so awesome. They are also always right about everything they do, everyone loves them, they're the key to solving all the problems of all the different protagonists, and at the end of the game they become God Pope Emperor of the world. 

Add to that that Byleth doesn't have a character or even speaks, and well... Personally, I think Corrin's better, now that I've experienced their story first-hand. They're even better as Avatars, thanks to greater customization.

I don't think the gap's as wide (Partly because of the skinship), but Byleth is a goddamm mess any way you slice it and absolutely the worst thing about characters and how they relate to the world in 3H, much less the avatar and how it's placed into the setting be FE standards, which weren't stellar to begin with. Add of course the lack of customisation and I have to wonder why the fuck they went with Byleth being any sort of avatar.

[Shrimpica]

5 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

If you've any insults, by all means, I'll hear them now.

HOW DARE YOU REEEEEEEEEEEEEE /s

Nah it's fine. I don't agree with you and actually think Byleth is like the best avatar in the series out of the 5 we got, but eh, opinions.

That and i really hate CornCob. Reminds me too much of Rean for my tastes.

Honestly though, i prefer avatars going away, but that's not gonna happen, and honestly, the majority of the lords in the series aren'T any better than an avatar anyway

[Acacia Sgt]

Want story, play SRW.

[BrightBow]

10 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

That's right, I went there. I know this take's blazing, but let me try to defend myself here. See, Corrin is shown to be a dumbass many times. They get bamboozled often, they lose a couple of people to their blunders (Gunter, Lilith, Mikoto), and they for the most part can't convince opposing retainers and royals to join their army. There's definitely problems with the lack of deaths, but the opposing side clearly hates them for a long stretch of the story (as far as I've made it, at least).

Byleth can convince just about anyone to cast their nation, their dreams and their friends aside because they're just so awesome. They are also always right about everything they do, everyone loves them, they're the key to solving all the problems of all the different protagonists, and at the end of the game they become God Pope Emperor of the world. 

Yeah, but it's not like Corrin is intended to be flawed. He isn't treated like a naive idiot who doesn't know what he is talking about when he protects Garon from Hoshidian assassins with the claim "You want to archieve peace through death? That's madness!" just 2 chapters before he decides to aim for peace through the deaths of a shitton of Hoshidians. He is constantly made up to be a paragon of virtue and selflessness.

And I mean, Conquest Corrin is utterly rotten anyway. He vehemently rejected the idea of stopping his father ("not even killing. He said to Azura "Do we really have to defeat and shame him". He didn't even think she was suggest killing him.) until it was proven to him that Garon was a literal monster rather then just a metaphorical one. But when she suggested to murder his way through an innocent nation? He jumped on that idea immediately. No hesitation at all.
He even started immediately self-pontificating. How much of a noble soul it makes him that he is willing to burden his soul with the deaths of so many innocent people.

Edited January 14, 2021 by BrightBow

[Saint Rubenio]

9 minutes ago, Dayni said:

I don't think the gap's as wide

I never meant to imply as much, either. They're both bad, I just feel Corrin has small traces of decency that Byleth completely lacks.

9 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

I don't agree with you and actually think Byleth is like the best avatar in the series out of the 5 we got, but eh, opinions.

May I ask why that is? As far as I can see, they fail as an avatar due to lack of customization, and they fail as character due to lack of dialogue and personality. What makes them better than the rest?

9 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Honestly though, i prefer avatars going away, but that's not gonna happen,

Agreed with this entirely.

Quote

and honestly, the majority of the lords in the series aren'T any better than an avatar anyway

I'd say there's a few, but then there's some shitters that are just... No.

4 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

Yeah, but it's not like Corrin is intended to be flawed. He isn't treated like a naive idiot who doesn't know what he is talking about when he protects Garon from Hoshidian assassins with the claim "You want to archieve peace through death? That's madness!" just 2 chapters before he decides to aim for peace through the deaths of a shitton of Hoshidians. He is constantly made up to be a paragon of virtue and selflessness.

And I mean, Conquest Corrin is utterly rotten anyway. He vehemently rejected the idea of stopping his father ("not even killing. He said to Azura "Do we really have to defeat and shame him". He didn't even think she was suggest killing him.) until it was proven to him that Garon was a literal monster rather then just a metaphorical one. But when she suggested to murder his way through an innocent nation? He jumped on that idea immediately. No hesitation at all.
He even started immediately self-pontificating. How much of a noble soul it makes him that he is willing to burden his soul with the deaths of so many innocent people.

As I said above, I never meant to say that Corrin is a good character. They're not, I just think Byleth is even more awful in more aspects.

...but yeah, I complained about it at the time and I'll do it again - jumping straight to "genocide Hoshido to get Garon's butt on the chair" is hilariously bad.

Edited January 14, 2021 by Saint Rubenio

[BrightBow]

7 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

...but yeah, I complained about it at the time and I'll do it again - jumping straight to "genocide Hoshido to get Garon's butt on the chair" is hilariously bad.

Shit, does Byleth murder his way through several innocent nations just because it's personally more convenient to him then having a serious talk to his siblings that worship the ground he walks on?

Not that at this point I would be surprised or anything.

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by BrightBow

[Sooks]

20 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Byleth can convince just about anyone to cast their nation, their dreams and their friends aside because they're just so awesome.

That’s a very dramatic view on transferring classes in school.😛

[Acacia Sgt]

They should take a page out of CK2. A sufficient Diplomacy stat, the right opinion-boosting traits, perhaps a gift of gold/alcohol/etc, and it doesn't matter if they're some random guy on theo ther side of the MEditerraine. If the Emperor of Hispania invites you to your court, you go to his court! And then you can make him an army commander and attack his previous homeland.

10/10 would CK2 again.

[Shrimpica]

12 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

May I ask why that is? As far as I can see, they fail as an avatar due to lack of customization, and they fail as character due to lack of dialogue and personality. What makes them better than the rest?

I will try xD

• As a silent MC, he surprisingly shows characters at some points in the story. Especially during Jeralt's Death. I played quite a few RPGs with Silent MCs and Byleth isn't even near the worst of them.
• He isn't the focus of the Story, but the lords are. He isn't a black hole that steals everything from every one.
• I played without recruiting anyone from other houses, and while they wish Byleth chose them instead, they are set on killing him because they are the enemy. Not like Corrin who is worshipped & loved by everyone in Fateslandia, or Kris that just steals every spotlight possible. Or the bizarre dream that is Mark.
• I can't self insert, even with silent MCs so i judge the characters based on what they are/what i see, and not what i think. In case of silent MCs i usually cook up personalties in my head depending on what we got from them. That's something i do with any RPG with Silent Protag. Atleast Byleth emotes quite a bit later on, which makes that part easy.
• Supports were super easy to unlock which meant i got to see characters interacting alot without Byleth. That's a big one here as i hate seeing the MC being the center of everything and everyone else just following their whims.
• I love the 3H cast in general so Byleth wasn't that big of a stink.

Edited January 14, 2021 by Shrimperor

[Acacia Sgt]

In fact, I go the full collaborateur route. Invite a guy from a foreign realm. Attack realm. If I take over the land, I put the guy I invited in charge.

[Punished Dayni]

2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

They should take a page out of CK2. A sufficient Diplomacy stat, the right opinion-boosting traits, perhaps a gift of gold/alcohol/etc, and it doesn't matter if they're some random guy on theo ther side of the MEditerraine. If the Emperor of Hispania invites you to your court, you go to his court! And then you can make him an army commander and attack his previous homeland.

Fair is fair, if you're a smaller nation you can't get them to come to you after a certain distance.

I think there's a path from the Way of Life DLC (Is that the name) which would make it easier.

Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

In fact, I go the full collaborateur route. Invite a guy from a foreign realm. Attack realm. If I take over the land, I put the guy I invited in charge.

Aha, that's fun too.

Course usually they have a claim, but I was not the best at getting claims to realms.

3 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

I will try xD

• As a silent MC, he surprisingly shows characters at some points in the story. Especially during Jeralt's Death. I played quite a few RPGs with Silent MCs and Byleth isn't even near the worst of them.
• He isn't the focus of the Story, but the lords are. He isn't a black hole that steals everything from every one.
• I played without recruiting anyone from other houses, and while they wish Byleth chose them instead, they are set on killing him because they are the enemy. Not like Corrin who is worshipped & loved by everyone in Fateslandia, or Kris that just steals every spotlight possible. Or the bizarre dream that is Mark.
• I can't self insert, even with silent MCs so i judge the characters based on what they are/what i see, and not what i think. In case of silent MCs i usually cook up personalties in my head depending on what we got from them. That's something i do with any RPG with Silent Protag. Atleast Byleth emotes quite a bit later on, which makes that part easy.
• Supports were super easy to unlock which meant i got to see characters interacting alot without Byleth. That's a big one here as i hate seeing the MC being the center of everything and everyone else just following their whims.
• I love the 3H cast in general so Byleth wasn't that big of a stink.

That's the thing for me, there's potentially a character in Byleth and if they weren't so determined to make it an avatar shell something might have come of it, especially with this being a strong player cast.

I'm not expecting Byleth to be amazing, but actually having their perspective would have been better than what we got.

[Saint Rubenio]

6 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

Shit, does Byleth murder his way through several innocent nations just because it's personally more convenient to him then having a serious talk to his siblings that worship the ground he walks on?

Nah, Byleth just lets a guy die so he can instantly fix Dimitri's edginess in one cutscene by giving him their hand and being special.

Admittedly, my problems with Byleth sre less about their morals and more about how they're a plain bad character.

3 minutes ago, Sooks said:

That’s a very dramatic view on transferring classes in school.😛

And then sticking with said class when it goes on to wage war on their homeland, murdering their childhood friends, sometimes even going directly against their own ideals.

C'mon. I know it's for gameplay reasons, but most of these people shouldn't have prioritized Byleth over literally everything else in their lives.

Just now, Shrimperor said:

As a silent MC, he surprisingly shows characters at some points in the story. Especially during Jeralt's Death. I played quite a few RPGs with Silent MCs and Byleth isn't even near the worst of them.

I'll give you this one. I can agree to some extent. There's a lot of things wrong with Jeralt's death, but Byleth's reaction isn't one of them. Heck, it's actually the only good part of the whole ordeal!

Just now, Shrimperor said:

He isn't the focus of the Story, but the lords are. He isn't a black hole that steals everything from every one.

Disagree. The other main characters rely on them way too much. They feel like the true force behind their successes every time.

2 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Not like Corrin who is worshipped & loved by everyone in Fateslandia

What...? That's not the vibe I got from them at all. Everyone calls them a traitor and wants to kill them constantly. Only the royals feel more conflicted, and there's a reason for that.

And well, I suppose you can just not recruit people and pretend the issue doesn't exist, but the option is there, and it's executed horrendously.

Then again, if it wasn't there the gameplay would be even more abysmal. That's not what I want either! Damnit, 3H!

4 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

In case of silent MCs i usually cook up personalties in my head depending on what we got from them. That's something i do with any RPG with Silent Protag. Atleast Byleth emotes quite a bit later on, which makes that part easy.

I actually had the opposite experience. Since I can't customize Byleth in any way, I couldn't make up a character for them. They were just Byleth, the nonexistent character I controlled, who was very much predefined in design and unit performance. There's far more potential for silliness in Kris and Corrin, even with the set personality.

5 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Supports were super easy to unlock which meant i got to see characters interacting alot without Byleth. That's a big one here as i hate seeing the MC being the center of everything and everyone else just following their whims

This is the same in Fates though, with the exception of Corrinsexuals, which I cannot defend. But everyone else gets their fair share.

2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

In fact, I go the full collaborateur route. Invite a guy from a foreign realm. Attack realm. If I take over the land, I put the guy I invited in charge.

I apologize for starting a fight. I've too much of a fondness for complaining.

[null]

1 minute ago, Saint Rubenio said:

What...? That's not the vibe I got from them at all. Everyone calls them a traitor and wants to kill them constantly. Only the royals feel more conflicted, and there's a reason for that.

Play Birthright and Revelation. They're at a near messianic-level of exultation in those routes.

[Acacia Sgt]

1 minute ago, Dayni said:

Fair is fair, if you're a smaller nation you can't get them to come to you after a certain distance.

I think there's a path from the Way of Life DLC (Is that the name) which would make it easier.

Aha, that's fun too.

Course usually they have a claim, but I was not the best at getting claims to realms.

I think it's just an outright distance. Diplo Range and all that. Though there's a Game Rule to tweak it if you want.

Carouser, I think? It helps for the opinion boost, at least.

Yeah, it's basically the quickest/easiest way to expand. And you can get into lots of fun shenanigans. In my current playthrough, I invited a claimant to the Byzantine Throne early in the game. Got him to convert to Catholicism. Pressed his claim. Helped the guy and his descendants out when needed. The end result? Orthodox Christianity straight up gone. Outside the Ecumenical Patriarch since his title still exists regardless of Moral Authority. But the Empire is pretty much 100% Catholic, pft. This is how you Fourth Crusade properly.

3 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

I apologize for starting a fight. I've too much of a fondness for complaining.

Eh, it wasn't a complain. Just a comparison since you can do similar stuff in CK2.

[Shrimpica]

3 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

And well, I suppose you can just not recruit people and pretend the issue doesn't exist, but the option is there, and it's executed horrendously.

How can i explain it...

It just felt wrong to recruit anyone, and it felt like it could ruin the story for me.

Honestly i feel they only added it for replayability, so people can mix & match who they want

and probaby for iron mans or something lol.

But for Story the intended route was to not recruit anyone, i feel.

4 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Everyone calls them a traitor and wants to kill them constantly.

Like

Only Takumi and his retainers do that. Everyone wants to bring Corncob home.

5 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

This is the same in Fates though, with the exception of Corrinsexuals, which I cannot defend. But everyone else gets their fair share

One big difference: i mostly despise the Fates cast xD

Well, and supports were really bad as well.

[BrightBow]

It should be noted that since Ruben has only passed Sakura, he has yet to see Corrin's worst moments.

Not that I have any interest in defending Three Houses and Byleth "Ain't Nepotism A Bitch" Eisner.

Edited January 14, 2021 by BrightBow

[Saint Rubenio]

10 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said:

Play Birthright and Revelation. They're at a near messianic-level of exultation in those routes.

Hahahahahahahahaha!

No thanks. I'm loving this game. I don't want to not love it by playing the bad routes.

9 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

How can i explain it...

It just felt wrong to recruit anyone, and it felt like it could ruin the story for me.

Honestly i feel they only added it for replayability, so people can mix & match who they want

and probaby for iron mans or something lol.

But for Story the intended route was to not recruit anyone, i feel.

Fair enough.

9 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

One big difference: i mostly despise the Fates cast xD

Well, and supports were really bad as well.

That's a different issue, though.

6 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

It should be noted that since Ruben has only passed Sakura, he has yet to see Corrin's worst moments.

I both fear and look forward to this.

...mostly look forward.

6 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

Not that I have any interest in defending Three Houses and the adventures of Byleth "Ain't Nepotism A Bitch" Eisner.

FE bad in general, let's get 16 sequels to Berwick Saga.

[Shrimpica]

4 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

let's get 16 sequels to Berwick Saga

yes please?

Like i really would've liked to see how Berwick would've developed with all the unique stuff it introduced and what Kaga was planning with  it. And less green unit maps

Could've been something for sure.

[Armagon]

1 hour ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Ignatius and Nina have achieved friend status. Nina claims that he's not "daydream material." Heh! Let's see how long it takes till she changes her tune. I love those two together, they're so dumb, it's so cute.

...Oh no, have I... Oh no! OH, NO! I'VE FALLEN INTO IT! I'M DOING S SUPPORTS FOR THE HECK OF IT! I'VE FALLEN INTO THE SHIPPING TRAP! I HAVE BECOME EVERYTHING I SWORE TO DESTROY! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHH---!

 

1 hour ago, Saint Rubenio said:

.then again, Three Houses is also one of the worst FEs for me. I think I'd rather have bad plots than bad gameplays from here on out, to be honest. Now THAT is a hot take.

While I disagree with your 3H take, I agree with your general take. Bad story with good gameplay can be forgiven, the same cannot be said vice-versa.

1 hour ago, twilitfalchion said:

The story is only ever good by FE standards. Play a game with a well done story and you'll realize that FE barely scratches the surface.

Yeah, FE story writing is above average at best.

Maybe i just need to play them more but I wonder if this is just a thing with SRPGs as a whole. I'd say Valkyria Chronicles also falls into some of of Fire Emblem's pitfalls (most notably being shitty villains and telling, not showing).

1 hour ago, BrightBow said:

That's not even subjective.
They made Radiant Dawn's story worse on purpose. Because they actually thought good writing would get in the way of sales.

Imma need a citation.

40 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

May I ask why that is? As far as I can see, they fail as an avatar due to lack of customization, and they fail as character due to lack of dialogue and personality. What makes them better than the rest?

At least for me, is that Byleth at least feels like an avatar. You can't customize him, sure, but he's also not really a pre-existing character. Kris, Robin and Corrin all have pre-established character and personalities so they fail at being avatars. Byleth at least let's you come up with his to an extent.

Of course, like Fire Emblem stories, Byleth being a good avatar is in context of Fire Emblem as a whole. Because Cross from Xenoblade X nukes FE avatars from orbit three times over in terms of how to do an avatar right and Lea from CrossCode nukes every silent protagonist ever from orbit three times over in terms of how to do a silent protag right except for Link and Cross, who merely get blown out the water.

16 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Honestly i feel they only added it for replayability, so people can mix & match who they want

That but some paralouges can only be done if you have specific characters. Like Mercedes' paralouge can only be done if Caspar has been recruited, for example.

Edited January 14, 2021 by Armagon

[BrightBow]

5 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Imma need a citation.

https://serenesforest.net/general/interviews/radiant-dawn/nintendo-dream/page-2/

Maeda: It’s not that they are different. Perhaps Fire Emblem enthusiasts would enjoy a long and deep scenario, but for more casual gamers this can make it harder to get into the game. On the other hand, fans of the series may feel unsatisfied with a lighter and shorter story. Therefore, we’ve modified the dialogue scenes to be a bit longer for the Hard Mode and a bit shorter on Normal.

 

 

Yamagami: Other than the dialogue scenes, which are integral to advancing the plot, there are also other scenes that, for example, reveal the kind of connection two characters have with each other. While these kind of scenes may be highly enjoyable for the Fire Emblem enthusiasts, for new players they might seem completely unnecessary, having no effect on how much they will enjoy the game.

In other words, by taking out the scenes concentrating on character building, we hope that players new to the series will be able enjoy the game more by just concentrating on the main story. We’ve heard from the more casual players that the storyline was too hard to follow in our previous games, so we’ve thought out this new structure and have found it to be the best solution to this problem.

Edited January 14, 2021 by BrightBow