Anyone else feel these are by far the most boring CYL winning units we've gotten so far

[Troykv]

38 minutes ago, Othin said:

Personally, I want to fill out the remaining beast armor colors, so if we do get Fallen Edelgard as an armored beast, I'd prefer red or blue.

I imagine she would be Red in order to have Weakness to Dimitri (this is after all the only Edelgard that Dimitri can actually kill)

[SSbardock84]

Oof. Not the topic I expected to see. I honestly thought they were the best we've had yet. I'm thoroughly pleased with Edelgard, Dimitri, and Claude (sorry Lysithea). 

[Ice Dragon]

50 minutes ago, Othin said:

5 possible characters, but according to CYL4, the most popular two are around rank 200, the next two are near the bottom of the top 400, and the fifth isn't even in the top 500.

Any of them could hypothetically show up at any point, but I get the impression only Dheginsea and Kurthnaga have much likelihood of showing up anytime soon.

Low CYL rankings haven't stopped them from tacking on less popular or less known units onto banners.

I mean, we literally just got Darros, whose highest ever ranking in CYL was 473rd, and Geese, whose highest ever ranking in CYL was 429th.

Even among non-seasonal units, we (relatively) recently got Lena, whose highest ever ranking in CYL was 289th, Eremiya, whose highest ever ranking in CYL was 363rd, Iago, whose highest ever ranking in CYL was 309th, Eyvel, whose highest ever ranking in CYL was 408th, and Tanya, whose highest ever ranking in CYL was 451st.

For all the people who had reactions about Mustafa being added, his highest ever ranking in CYL was 237th, higher than any of the characters I just mentioned above. EDIT: Heck, Mustafa got more votes in CYL 1 (1,107) than Eyvel got in all 4 CYLs combined (929).

If they want to add the character and/or they have a theme that the character fits into, they'll add them. Nothing's stopped them before.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Ice Dragon

[Othin]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

Low CYL rankings haven't stopped them from tacking on less popular or less known units onto banners.

I mean, we literally just got Darros, whose highest ever ranking in CYL was 473rd, and Geese, whose highest ever ranking in CYL was 429th.

Even among non-seasonal units, we (relatively) recently got Lena, whose highest ever ranking in CYL was 289th, Eremiya, whose highest ever ranking in CYL was 363rd, Iago, whose highest ever ranking in CYL was 309th, Eyvel, whose highest ever ranking in CYL was 408th, and Tanya, whose highest ever ranking in CYL was 451st.

For all the people who had reactions about Mustafa being added, his highest ever ranking in CYL was 237th, higher than any of the characters I just mentioned above.

If they want to add the character and/or they have a theme that the character fits into, they'll add them. Nothing's stopped them before.

Which is exactly what I said:

53 minutes ago, Othin said:

Any of them could hypothetically show up at any point, but I get the impression only Dheginsea and Kurthnaga have much likelihood of showing up anytime soon.

Also, bear in mind that the CYL4 rankings in question were Nasir (356), Ena (376), and Gareth (511). So those examples still don't make Nasir or Ena look particularly likely to show up outside of seasonals, and they don't make Gareth look likely to show up at all.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I suppose it is odd that the only "fictional" element to depicting these characters are their ownership of regalia. Lysithea doesn't even have that much. All of these units could have passed as their Legendary alts. Even the base versions of Claude and Dimitri feel more unique, being given cavalry movement and made up weapons.

[Mercakete]

1 hour ago, Troykv said:

I imagine she would be Red in order to have Weakness to Dimitri (this is after all the only Edelgard that Dimitri can actually kill)

I imagine red, too, but for different reasons. (Black Beasts read as Dark Magic to me.)

[Tybrosion]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

For all the people who had reactions about Mustafa being added, his highest ever ranking in CYL was 237th, higher than any of the characters I just mentioned above. EDIT: Heck, Mustafa got more votes in CYL 1 (1,107) than Eyvel got in all 4 CYLs combined (929).

Mustafa also has less CYL votes to date compared to numerous Awakening absentees (including fellow axe fighters Vaike and Basilio) but was added before any of them anyways on a banner that also already had a spot taken by a Heroes OC. That was the grievance people had with Mustafa’s inclusion.

[SuperNova125]

2 hours ago, Troykv said:

I imagine she would be Red in order to have Weakness to Dimitri (this is after all the only Edelgard that Dimitri can actually kill)

I would like colourless to be honest but I can see red being the case. Am I allowed to hope for flying Hagemon (she does float after all) that way she can have 3 movement and spice Edelgard emblem up quite a lot. 

About the dragon laguz, I have been thinking that some can be dragons and some beasts, as some target Res and some Def in the games if I am not mistaken. Armoured Beast Dheginsea should be a thing though. 

Edited August 22, 2020 by SuperNova125

[Ice Dragon]

5 minutes ago, SuperNova125 said:

About the dragon laguz, I have been thinking that some can be dragons and some beasts, as some target Res and some Def in the games if I am not mistaken.

Nasir is the only named dragon Laguz that targets Res.

[Othin]

28 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

on a banner that also already had a spot taken by a Heroes OC

Not this again.

Mufasa was released as part of a lineup of 5 characters from his game: 1 grail unit and 4 in the regular summoning pool, which is the standard for Book 4. (And he fit the theme by showing up alongside Gangrel and Emmeryn, unlike Basilio who wants to show up alongside Flavia, and Vaike who wants to show up alongside Miriel or other Shepherds.)

Edited August 22, 2020 by Othin

[Tybrosion]

11 minutes ago, Othin said:

Not this again.

Mufasa was released as part of a lineup of 5 characters from his game: 1 grail unit and 4 in the regular summoning pool, which is the standard for Book 4. (And he fit the theme by showing up alongside Gangrel and Emmeryn, unlike Basilio who wants to show up alongside Flavia, and Vaike who wants to show up alongside Miriel or other Shepherds.)

Yeah sure, it had standard amount of characters so Mirabilis didn't steal a character spot....except she still did in a different sense. Without her, Emmeryn would've been in that banner spot instead of being unceremoniously crapped out as yet another generic 3*-4* staff (and one that doesn't even get Wings of Mercy 3 at 4* at that). And considering who Emmeryn is, her getting shafted that badly just for the sake of propping up a bland OC is honestly insulting.

That banner was hot garbage then, and it's still hot garbage now.

[Othin]

4 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

Yeah sure, it had standard amount of characters so Mirabilis didn't steal a character spot....except she still did in a different sense. Without her, Emmeryn would've been in that banner spot instead of being unceremoniously crapped out as yet another generic 3*-4* staff (and one that doesn't even get Wings of Mercy 3 at 4* at that). And considering who Emmeryn is, her getting shafted that badly just for the sake of propping up a bland OC is honestly insulting.

That banner was hot garbage then, and it's still hot garbage now.

Mirabilis made it so that rather than one demote out of the four main pool Awakening units, we got two. I remember when people complained about banners not having enough demotes because IS wanted to keep more units rare so people would pull for them. A lack of demotes was actually the cause of a bunch of complaints on the Fallen Heroes banner just a month before Mirabilis's banner!

As someone who was eagerly anticipating Emmeryn, I do think she's a bit underwhelming, but in exchange, I was able to get her for free and I'll have the option to easily merge her if I ever want to. So personally, I think it works out to about even on the Awakening characters, and including Mirabilis there rather than on a mythic banner frees up a slot for a non-OC mythic, which I consider a solid win. I'd welcome any future New Heroes banners to do the same thing, including any of the New Heroes banners I'm most looking forward to, as long as the character bumped off the main banner gets the Emmeryn treatment.

[Roflolxp54]

At the very least, for a good number of players, that's a lot of orbs saved and could be used for other banners (such as the Double Focus coming soon or the New Heroes Revival coming next month, not to mention the monthly banners). And if they are their favorites, then it's on them to pull them if they want to.

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

There's nothing stopping them from making the dragon tribe into armored beasts, which gives us at least 5 more possible characters.

I expect all the dragon laguz will get into the game eventually of based of weapon type alone. And even ignoring that, Gareth aside they're all pretty major characters in the two games. However I wouldn't take it as a given that they'd be beast units. They might be, but bear in mind were also running very low on canonical dragon units too. There's only Anankos, Medeus and Rhea left from the obvious choices. After that there's more creative choices like fallen Gunther (mounted breath!) and Nergal summoning the fire dragon. Maybe another Morgan as a dragon. And after that its just really unoteworthy Archanea bosses. Now given the backlog of breath units versus beast units it makes more sense to go beasts for the dragon laguz, however it's not really about backlog and more about constant release rate.

Edit: And Morva. He's another obvious dragon choice that remains. Though I'm curious to know what they'll do with him given he has a human and dragon design, but the dragon one is a zombie dragon. Itd be a bit weird for h to have a normal human form turn into a zombie dragon. Maybe they'll ignore the zombie aspect entirely, though I hope not given Dracozombies are a recurring enemy in the series. So perhaps just his normal design with some more fallen hero dark swirls.

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Jotari

[Othin]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I expect all the dragon laguz will get into the game eventually of based of weapon type alone. And even ignoring that, Gareth aside they're all pretty major characters in the two games. However I wouldn't take it as a given that they'd be beast units. They might be, but bear in mind were also running very low on canonical dragon units too. There's only Anankos, Medeus and Rhea left from the obvious choices. After that there's more creative choices like fallen Gunther (mounted breath!) and Nergal summoning the fire dragon. Maybe another Morgan as a dragon. And after that its just really unoteworthy Archanea bosses. Now given the backlog of breath units versus beast units it makes more sense to go beasts for the dragon laguz, however it's not really about backlog and more about constant release rate.

Edit: And Morva. He's another obvious dragon choice that remains. Though I'm curious to know what they'll do with him given he has a human and dragon design, but the dragon one is a zombie dragon. Itd be a bit weird for h to have a normal human form turn into a zombie dragon. Maybe they'll ignore the zombie aspect entirely, though I hope not given Dracozombies are a recurring enemy in the series. So perhaps just his normal design with some more fallen hero dark swirls.

 

Dragons could easily fill out their release rate with seasonals, so I don't think that's an issue.

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Edit: And Morva. He's another obvious dragon choice that remains. Though I'm curious to know what they'll do with him given he has a human and dragon design, but the dragon one is a zombie dragon. Itd be a bit weird for h to have a normal human form turn into a zombie dragon. Maybe they'll ignore the zombie aspect entirely, though I hope not given Dracozombies are a recurring enemy in the series. So perhaps just his normal design with some more fallen hero dark swirls.

In The Sacred Stones, Morva's class was Mamkute and not Dragonzombie. He used the same battle sprite as Myrrh with no transformation animation and with a different color palette, and he still had his human form as his face sprite.

 

EDIT: As for other dragon units, there's also Jahn.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Ice Dragon

[Jotari]

31 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

In The Sacred Stones, Morva's class was Mamkute and not Dragonzombie. He used the same battle sprite as Myrrh with no transformation animation and with a different color palette, and he still had his human form as his face sprite.

 

EDIT: As for other dragon units, there's also Jahn.

Yeah, but I think the recoloured sprite is meant to invoke a Dracozombie idea. His name is also listed as Dracozombie when you fight him I believe. They might just use that palette as his regular dragon form with no mention of zombification but I doubt it. I don't think were meant to believe Morva is naturally all purple and red and using the Wretched Air weapon.

1 hour ago, Othin said:

Dragons could easily fill out their release rate with seasonals, so I don't think that's an issue.

Well we could apply the same thing to beasts. Though it'll probably be an endless rotation of Tibarns and Caineghises. Not putting Seeker on that pirate banner was a travesty!

Edited August 23, 2020 by Jotari

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, but I think the recoloured sprite is meant to invoke a Dracozombie idea. His name is also listed as Dracozombie when you fight him I believe. They might just use that palette as his regular dragon form with no mention of zombification but I doubt it. I don't think were meant to believe Morva is naturally all purple and red and using the Wretched Air weapon.

I'm pretty sure his name is still "Morva" when you fight him, but I could be wrong. It's been a decade since I last played the game, but the Serenes main site still lists the chapter boss as "Morva".

I've always interpreted his battle sprite as being recently enough dead that his body hasn't begun to fall apart like the Dragonzombie monsters.

[SuperNova125]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

I expect all the dragon laguz will get into the game eventually of based of weapon type alone. And even ignoring that, Gareth aside they're all pretty major characters in the two games. However I wouldn't take it as a given that they'd be beast units. They might be, but bear in mind were also running very low on canonical dragon units too. There's only Anankos, Medeus and Rhea left from the obvious choices. After that there's more creative choices like fallen Gunther (mounted breath!) and Nergal summoning the fire dragon. Maybe another Morgan as a dragon. And after that its just really unoteworthy Archanea bosses. Now given the backlog of breath units versus beast units it makes more sense to go beasts for the dragon laguz, however it's not really about backlog and more about constant release rate.

Edit: And Morva. He's another obvious dragon choice that remains. Though I'm curious to know what they'll do with him given he has a human and dragon design, but the dragon one is a zombie dragon. Itd be a bit weird for h to have a normal human form turn into a zombie dragon. Maybe they'll ignore the zombie aspect entirely, though I hope not given Dracozombies are a recurring enemy in the series. So perhaps just his normal design with some more fallen hero dark swirls.

 

These dragons can produce some alts themselves so I don't think we are in need of dragons as we are in need of beast that at this point exist because of seasonal alts. Anankos has 2 alts, space dragon and Gunter, Medeus also has 2 forms, as an earth dragon and as a shadow dragon, Rhea has even more, Berserk, Seiros (we have more than enough swordies and in CF she does transform) and as archbishop she also could (if they add her as Archbishop). Morva and Yahn don't have any, but we still have enough dragons. Beasts are only some Tellius ones and considering the rate of Tellius banners things aren't looking too good.

[Othin]

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well we could apply the same thing to beasts. Though it'll probably be an endless rotation of Tibarns and Caineghises. Not putting Seeker on that pirate banner was a travesty!

The key word was "easily". There are more dragons than beasts, and more of the dragons are popular.

Although in fairness we've been getting more seasonal beasts than dragons lately.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Othin

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm pretty sure his name is still "Morva" when you fight him, but I could be wrong. It's been a decade since I last played the game, but the Serenes main site still lists the chapter boss as "Morva".

I've always interpreted his battle sprite as being recently enough dead that his body hasn't begun to fall apart like the Dragonzombie monsters.

Well they did intentionally give him a different sprite to the zombies in the temple so I think that is the implication, yet I also think this isn't meant to be "normal" Morva so to speak. At any rate I hope his appearance is as post zombification because at the very least he has more to talk about. Morva is such a one note character all he has is "I protect the forest". At least if it's Zombie Morva he can also talk about how he failed to protect the forest.

1 hour ago, SuperNova125 said:

These dragons can produce some alts themselves so I don't think we are in need of dragons as we are in need of beast that at this point exist because of seasonal alts. Anankos has 2 alts, space dragon and Gunter, Medeus also has 2 forms, as an earth dragon and as a shadow dragon, Rhea has even more, Berserk, Seiros (we have more than enough swordies and in CF she does transform) and as archbishop she also could (if they add her as Archbishop). Morva and Yahn don't have any, but we still have enough dragons. Beasts are only some Tellius ones and considering the rate of Tellius banners things aren't looking too good.

I really, really hope they give us fallen Gunther as as breath unit as he's the only non contrived mounted breath were likely to get at this point, but he doesn't actually fight like that in Fates so it's very possible fallen Gunther will just show up with a brave Lance. I also really don't see us getting two different breath Rhea's when she's probably going to have two non breath variations to begin with.

Even so, counting them our grand total of likely breath units is: Medeus X2 (at least one will have to be a legendary), Anankos (probably a legendary) Gunther, Rhea (probably a legendary), berserk Rhea, Morva, Yahn and Nergal summoning the fire dragon (which is basically just my personal pipe dream and massively unlikely to happen, at least before we get actual Nergal).

 So that's nine potential dragon unit's before we start getting into minor Archanea bosses or release new games (or more Tiki alts). That's...not really a whole lot. Especially when most of them are more legendart matrerial than regular banner.

Now let's examine the potential beast units we still have. Among the laguz there's the three lions that aren't in the game already, Skimr, Soan and Grifca. The four birds that aren't in, Janaff, Ulki, Vika and Nealuchi. Among the cats and tigers there's still Lyre and Kyza and Volug. Lehran as another heron to fill out all the colours is still likely (as is a non seasonal Rafiel). So that's ten from the laguz alone (and personal hoping for a Pain and Agony duo unit giving the bandit twins recurring status in the series).

Now that's just the non dragon laguz, there's still potential three houses characters whose bra beast forms might be beast units. Most notably Hegmon Edelgard, War Phase Dedue and Aelfric. The Lord of the Skies and Lord of the Lake are two possibilities also (though they could also be dragons) as is Marianne's ancestor whose name slips my mind (though I think he doesn't have a human design which might discount him). Still counting only Dedue, Aelfric and Edelgard we have thirteen potential beast units versus nine dragons (and I'll stress again some of those dragons are a real stretch, the real number of dragons is six or seven (though maybe the likes of Aelfric could be a dragon) (and just for fun, in the minor boss category for beasts we also have the potential for Monica's dad whom I recently jotted down in the crest a hero thread)

Now I'm not personally making any judgement calls on wether dragon laguz should be breath or beasts, I'm just pointing out that are potential number of breath units at this point in time is actually shockingly low without getting pretty creative, so they might we'll decide to make the dragon laguz breath units on that basis.

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Jotari

[SuperNova125]

26 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well they did intentionally give him a different sprite to the zombies in the temple so I think that is the implication, yet I also think this isn't meant to be "normal" Morva so to speak. At any rate I hope his appearance is as post zombification because at the very least he has more to talk about. Morva is such a one note character all he has is "I protect the forest". At least if it's Zombie Morva he can also talk about how he failed to protect the forest.

I really, really hope they give us fallen Gunther as as breath unit as he's the only non contrived mounted breath were likely to get at this point, but he doesn't actually fight like that in Fates so it's very possible fallen Gunther will just show up with a brave Lance. I also really don't see us getting two different breath Rhea's when she's probably going to have two non breath variations to begin with.

Even so, counting them our grand total of likely breath units is: Medeus X2 (at least one will have to be a legendary), Anankos (probably a legendary) Gunther, Rhea (probably a legendary), berserk Rhea, Morva, Yahn and Nergal summoning the fire dragon (which is basically just my personal pipe dream and massively unlikely to happen, at least before we get actual Nergal).

 So that's nine potential dragon unit's before we start getting into minor Archanea bosses or release new games (or more Tiki alts). That's...not really a whole lot. Especially when most of them are more legendart matrerial than regular banner.

Now let's examine the potential beast units we still have. Among the laguz there's the three lions that aren't in the game already, Skimr, Soan and Grifca. The four birds that aren't in, Janaff, Ulki, Vika and Nealuchi. Among the cats and tigers there's still Lyre and Kyza and Volug. Lehran as another heron to fill out all the colours is still likely (as is a non seasonal Rafiel). So that's ten from the laguz alone (and personal hoping for a Pain and Agony duo unit giving the bandit twins recurring status in the series).

Now that's just the non dragon laguz, there's still potential three houses characters whose bra beast forms might be beast units. Most notably Hegmon Edelgard, War Phase Dedue and Aelfric. The Lord of the Skies and Lord of the Lake are two possibilities also (though they could also be dragons) as is Marianne's ancestor whose name slips my mind (though I think he doesn't have a human design which might discount him). Still counting only Dedue, Aelfric and Edelgard we have thirteen potential beast units versus nine dragons (and I'll stress again some of those dragons are a real stretch, the real number of dragons is six or seven (though maybe the likes of Aelfric could be a dragon).

I see your point I didn't know there were that many beasts left actually. There needs to be another Tellius beast banner soon enough (Maybe Jill can be an Axe flier GHB hopefully she is good and unique like Mininerva and not like Haar). The 3H ones are mostly fallen units Dedue, Edelgard and for Aelfric it depends. 

Also I now want the fire dragon playable, someone who has built Canas should kill him with Luna so remember the old days. Fallen Gunter should be a cavalry dragon that fights as the weird head thing. 

Edited August 23, 2020 by SuperNova125

[Othin]

28 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well they did intentionally give him a different sprite to the zombies in the temple so I think that is the implication, yet I also think this isn't meant to be "normal" Morva so to speak. At any rate I hope his appearance is as post zombification because at the very least he has more to talk about. Morva is such a one note character all he has is "I protect the forest". At least if it's Zombie Morva he can also talk about how he failed to protect the forest.

I really, really hope they give us fallen Gunther as as breath unit as he's the only non contrived mounted breath were likely to get at this point, but he doesn't actually fight like that in Fates so it's very possible fallen Gunther will just show up with a brave Lance. I also really don't see us getting two different breath Rhea's when she's probably going to have two non breath variations to begin with.

Even so, counting them our grand total of likely breath units is: Medeus X2 (at least one will have to be a legendary), Anankos (probably a legendary) Gunther, Rhea (probably a legendary), berserk Rhea, Morva, Yahn and Nergal summoning the fire dragon (which is basically just my personal pipe dream and massively unlikely to happen, at least before we get actual Nergal).

 So that's nine potential dragon unit's before we start getting into minor Archanea bosses or release new games (or more Tiki alts). That's...not really a whole lot. Especially when most of them are more legendart matrerial than regular banner.

Now let's examine the potential beast units we still have. Among the laguz there's the three lions that aren't in the game already, Skimr, Soan and Grifca. The four birds that aren't in, Janaff, Ulki, Vika and Nealuchi. Among the cats and tigers there's still Lyre and Kyza and Volug. Lehran as another heron to fill out all the colours is still likely (as is a non seasonal Rafiel). So that's ten from the laguz alone (and personal hoping for a Pain and Agony duo unit giving the bandit twins recurring status in the series).

Now that's just the non dragon laguz, there's still potential three houses characters whose bra beast forms might be beast units. Most notably Hegmon Edelgard, War Phase Dedue and Aelfric. The Lord of the Skies and Lord of the Lake are two possibilities also (though they could also be dragons) as is Marianne's ancestor whose name slips my mind (though I think he doesn't have a human design which might discount him). Still counting only Dedue, Aelfric and Edelgard we have thirteen potential beast units versus nine dragons (and I'll stress again some of those dragons are a real stretch, the real number of dragons is six or seven (though maybe the likes of Aelfric could be a dragon) (and just for fun, in the minor boss category for beasts we also have the potential for Monica's dad whom I recently jotted down in the crest a hero thread)

Now I'm not personally making any judgement calls on wether dragon laguz should be breath or beasts, I'm just pointing out that are potential number of breath units at this point in time is actually shockingly low without getting pretty creative, so they might we'll decide to make the dragon laguz breath units on that basis.

 

I'm sure Fallen Gunter, if he gets added, will have some sort of prf, since all Fallen units do. Hopefully it's a breath rather than being based on his ingame weapons.

Marianne's ancestor is Maurice.

[Diovani Bressan]

Once 3H released, I knew all three house leaders would win, so I already expected 3H characters to dominate CYL 4.

I just wanted they had different weapon types from their others versions. I mean... it's the 3rd Axe Edelgard...

Spoiler

4th if we count Flame Emperor

... and for characters from a game where the units have a lot of options for classes, weapons and skills... it was kinda meh.

From the two remaining house leaders, only Claude has a chance of having a Legendary Alt with a different weapon type... and when I say different weapon type, I mean a different bow color, but I still expect a colorless bow for Legendary Claude.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Diovani Bressan

[Troykv]

2 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Once 3H released, I knew all three house leaders would win, so I already expected 3H characters to dominate CYL 4.

I just wanted they had different weapon types from their others versions. I mean... it's the 3rd Axe Edelgard...

  Reveal hidden contents

4th if we count Flame Emperor

... and for characters from a game where the units have a lot of options for classes, weapons and skills... it was kinda meh.

From the two remaining house leaders, only Claude has a chance of having a Legendary Alt with a different weapon type... and when I say different weapon type, I mean a different bow color, but I still expect a colorless bow for Legendary Claude.

Well at least isn't seem like Edelgard will get more Axe Armor Alts again, all her Canon Alts already exists in Heroes