Anyone else feel these are by far the most boring CYL winning units we've gotten so far

[Etrurian emperor]

39 minutes ago, UNLEASH IT said:

All of them are in their Master classes.

And that's boring. Its the most boring thing they could have done aside from their regular post timeskip designs. 

But I don't think they are entirely their master classes. Its extremely similar but there are some differences. Brave Dimitri for instance has a far brighter color scheme then master class Dimitri. 

[Sunwoo]

I see the Brave banner as a continuation of a trend that's been bothering me about some of the alts in Heroes lately. Remember when Bride Charlotte got a giant spoon of a lance? Performing Arts Shigure used a tome? Christmas Lissa was an armor with an axe? Halloween Nowi was a flying mage? Valentine's Lyn was an armor tome and her bride self a staff user? Bride Caeda used a tome? Groom Marth had a horse and an axe? Summer Innes with an axe and Summer Tana with a red tome?

Trends for seasonal units nowadays seem to be allergic to letting most characters out of their "normal" unit types or weapon types. Valentine's Ike was an armor, sure, but he had a sword again. Summer Lute was on a pegasus, but she got a blue tome again. Selena, despite not being in the game yet, is a green mage cavalier. Even if she escapes being green again, her normal self will be a mage cavalier. Valentine's Greil? Axe, like his normal self. Every single Berkut? Lances. The most recent Takumi alt? A colorless bow, for the third time. Leo? All three of them are tomes, even if one of them is green.

You kind of get my drift, right? While the first year and the start of the second year had some characters whose weapon type were the same as their usual, I feel like it's become more prevalent nowadays. And this Brave banner in particular seems to stand out more because the Brave banner generally seems to make more of an effort in trying to branch out the characters' weapon types. Of course, this isn't always the case, as with the three red swords, but for the most part the other characters did benefit from it.

[Othin]

I wonder what the implications of this are for future CYL banner theming. The first three times around, it was all about emphasizing that they were this collection of special chosen heroes. This time, with them all being 3H war arc characters, they dropped that completely and made it basically just a normal 3H war arc banner. In future years, if we get any more clean sweeps, they could do the same thing, although I don't think it's super likely to happen again since this year was a bit of a special situation. But that doesn't mean they'll go back to the old method, either. They could look for some other common thread between future winners and make a banner themed around that. That could be cool.

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, SuperNova125 said:

Gameplaywise they all are amazing units and surpassed my expectations. The outfits are exactly what I expected but also what I wanted. I just expected different weapons. Edelgard a swordie with the Sword of Seiros she also uses in the game (Seiros has other options), Claude with an Axe as another nod to his Almyran heritage, Lysithea a non red tome and Dimitri can be a lance or even a blue dagger not that the difference in stats is that crazy between the two now. 

Dagger is actually a great idea for an alternative for Dimitri. It's even the weapon he uses to kill Edelgard. Part of my issue here is that were going to get these exact same weapon and movement combinations in these characters in the future. If the brave version had used Failnaught and Aredbhar then that would have allowed the legendary versions to be the more creative ones. But they basically have to use those weapons and movement types for the future legendary versions.

Edit: Wait no it's Edelgard who tries to use the knife to kill Dimitri. She could actually be an alternate knife wielder too. 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Jotari

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

I see the Brave banner as a continuation of a trend that's been bothering me about some of the alts in Heroes lately. Remember when Bride Charlotte got a giant spoon of a lance? Performing Arts Shigure used a tome? Christmas Lissa was an armor with an axe? Halloween Nowi was a flying mage? Valentine's Lyn was an armor tome and her bride self a staff user? Bride Caeda used a tome? Groom Marth had a horse and an axe? Summer Innes with an axe and Summer Tana with a red tome?

Trends for seasonal units nowadays seem to be allergic to letting most characters out of their "normal" unit types or weapon types. Valentine's Ike was an armor, sure, but he had a sword again. Summer Lute was on a pegasus, but she got a blue tome again. Selena, despite not being in the game yet, is a green mage cavalier. Even if she escapes being green again, her normal self will be a mage cavalier. Valentine's Greil? Axe, like his normal self. Every single Berkut? Lances. The most recent Takumi alt? A colorless bow, for the third time. Leo? All three of them are tomes, even if one of them is green.

Remember Pirate Geese, who has a lance? Or Pirate Veronica, who has an axe? Or Summer Joshua with a bow? Spring Bartre with a sword? Spring Fir on a pegasus with an axe? Spring Est with a blue tome?

 

1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

While the first year and the start of the second year had some characters whose weapon type were the same as their usual, I feel like it's become more prevalent nowadays.

Just "some" characters?

You mean Summer Leo with a red tome again? And Halloween Henry with another tome? And Winter Tharja with another red tome? And Valentine Hector with not just another axe, but another Armads? And Valentine Lilina with another tome?

And just the first half of year 2 (March-August) gave us Spring Kagero with another dagger, Bride Sanaki with another tome, Bride Tharja with another red tome and the same movement type and general stat spread, Summer Cordelia with another lance, Summer Noire with a bow, Summer Takumi with another bow, Summer Tiki with another red dragonstone, and Dancer Micaiah with another tome.

They've been doing this a lot since forever ago. It's not new.

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

It's my personal favorite of the CYL's so far. It's just a popularity contest, and 3 Houses was the newest shiny toy, so it's not really boring to me by any means.

I am also a personal fan of canon when it comes to CYL units (aka: heroes wielding their most preferred weapon). I love Lucina for example, but I didn't love the fact she was wielding a Lance, I'd rather it have been a sword. I'm okay with alts (especially seasonal ones), giving characters uncharacteristic weapons and move types, but I've never *loved* CYL being them wielding different weapons. I didn't mind it, but seeing these classic characters with their classic weapons really gave me so much heart because they FEEL like their characters.

So to me none of it felt 'lazy' or 'uninspired'. It felt truly top tier. These are their "final forms" so to speak. Their most powerful, at the top of their game outfits. So I guess I wanted to see them represented and CYL seemed like the perfect place for it. I think we can say we all have different preferences on how CYL is treated, but it feels a bit much to say because you don't like something it's 'lazy'.

I hate this idea of an imposed limits on rep from the game. That completely takes away the point of CYL. It's a popularity contest. It's about who the fans think is most popular at that given moment. It's not truly fair if fans think one character is more popular, but they impose a limit that suddenly means that the one people voted for, doesn't get in. It could literally be all Fates (my least favorite game) and that still wouldn't make me say "Let's put a hard limit on rep", because if people voted for an all Fates sweep, that is entirely their prerogative and means those 4 characters are the most popular.

But most Fire Emblem characters l, and especially Three Houses characters can use multiple weapons. As noted, Claude even as a sword associated with his house. And if this is meant to be them at their most powerful, why aren't they using their canonical most powerful weapons?

1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

I see the Brave banner as a continuation of a trend that's been bothering me about some of the alts in Heroes lately. Remember when Bride Charlotte got a giant spoon of a lance? Performing Arts Shigure used a tome? Christmas Lissa was an armor with an axe? Halloween Nowi was a flying mage? Valentine's Lyn was an armor tome and her bride self a staff user? Bride Caeda used a tome? Groom Marth had a horse and an axe? Summer Innes with an axe and Summer Tana with a red tome?

Trends for seasonal units nowadays seem to be allergic to letting most characters out of their "normal" unit types or weapon types. Valentine's Ike was an armor, sure, but he had a sword again. Summer Lute was on a pegasus, but she got a blue tome again. Selena, despite not being in the game yet, is a green mage cavalier. Even if she escapes being green again, her normal self will be a mage cavalier. Valentine's Greil? Axe, like his normal self. Every single Berkut? Lances. The most recent Takumi alt? A colorless bow, for the third time. Leo? All three of them are tomes, even if one of them is green.

You kind of get my drift, right? While the first year and the start of the second year had some characters whose weapon type were the same as their usual, I feel like it's become more prevalent nowadays. And this Brave banner in particular seems to stand out more because the Brave banner generally seems to make more of an effort in trying to branch out the characters' weapon types. Of course, this isn't always the case, as with the three red swords, but for the most part the other characters did benefit from it.

I'm not too upset about Valentin Greil being an axe user. For one it's not entirely likely he'll get in the game in a regular form, but should he, Ike's already taken Urvan so he might not be an axe user. He still has Ettard as a personal weapon he can use (Ike's Radiant Dawn sword shown in Greil's flashback artwork). Would have much preferred if fallen Ike was fallen Greil instead, using Ettard (the weapon he uses to kill his own wife).

1 hour ago, Othin said:

I wonder what the implications of this are for future CYL banner theming. The first three times around, it was all about emphasizing that they were this collection of special chosen heroes. This time, with them all being 3H war arc characters, they dropped that completely and made it basically just a normal 3H war arc banner. In future years, if we get any more clean sweeps, they could do the same thing, although I don't think it's super likely to happen again since this year was a bit of a special situation. But that doesn't mean they'll go back to the old method, either. They could look for some other common thread between future winners and make a banner themed around that. That could be cool.

I actually think this is pretty likely to happen again. Anytime a new game is released that years cyl will probably be filled to the brim with the new characters. I don't think thats an issue though given these particular characters could be different and more interesting.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Jotari

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

20 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Dagger is actually a great idea for an alternative for Dimitri. It's even the weapon he uses to kill Edelgard.

No, he uses Areadbhar to kill Edelgard. Edelgard stabs him with the dagger. It is the weapon he gave her when they were kids but he very much used Areadbhar to kill her.

[Topaz Light]

1 hour ago, SockPuppet said:

Yes I agree. I don’t mind the 4 and I don’t mind an all same game top 4 (I feel it captures the momentous success of TH perfectly!) but I wanted different weapons. They can look the same, as I find the master class look to be fitting, but I think hidden abilities would have been a nice nod to an interesting new mechanic / feature introduced in TH. They can all say something like “‘my teacher taught me to harness my potential in _____, and now I’m sharing it with you!” Etc. 

To be honest, I think Budding Talent-based alts would've been my personal ideal direction for these four to have gone in. Sword Lysithea with some sort of "magic damage" property to reflect Soulblade, Axe Claude, and Tome Edelgard would all be super cool and fun alts!

The only problem, I guess, is Dimitri's budding talent is in Riding, and his initial variant kinda... already is a horseback unit. I guess they could give him Daggers as his weapon type and have him wield the gift dagger he gives Edelgard? That could be rather poignant assuming they kept the concept of these alts being from after the endings of each character's respective "home route".

Edited August 22, 2020 by Topaz Light

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

No, he uses Areadbhar to kill Edelgard. Edelgard stabs him with the dagger. It is the weapon he gave her when they were kids but he very much used Areadbhar to kill her.

Yeah I remember how it went down just after I posted XD I even went back and edited the post. Based on that scene though Edelgard could have gotten the oath dagger too. And armoured dagger users is pretty unique. Even among seasonal that's a rare one.

[Othin]

16 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Remember Pirate Geese, who has a lance? Or Pirate Veronica, who has an axe? Or Summer Joshua with a bow? Spring Bartre with a sword? Spring Fir on a pegasus with an axe? Spring Est with a blue tome?

 

Just "some" characters?

You mean Summer Leo with a red tome again? And Halloween Henry with another tome? And Winter Tharja with another red tome? And Valentine Hector with not just another axe, but another Armads? And Valentine Lilina with another tome?

And just the first half of year 2 (March-August) gave us Spring Kagero with another dagger, Bride Sanaki with another tome, Bride Tharja with another red tome and the same movement type and general stat spread, Summer Cordelia with another lance, Summer Noire with a bow, Summer Takumi with another bow, Summer Tiki with another red dragonstone, and Dancer Micaiah with another tome.

They've been doing this a lot since forever ago. It's not new.

We could put numbers to it, but we'd need a consistent standard. Let's say... entirely new weapon (sword/lance/axe/bow/dagger/tome/staff/breath/beast) is worth 1 point. Different color variation of an established weapon type is worth 0.5 points, while an exact match is worth 0 points. If a unit gets added first as an alt then later as a regular version, their regular version still counts. If the regular version hasn't been added, we can guess their weapon type if there's a clear choice (I would say Mikoto and Rinea have no clear choice) but can't normally assume it's the same color (with Ilyana being an exception). If the same weapon type shows up on multiple alts, it counts as new for the first one but not for later ones. This doesn't address movement type, but that would make things even more complicated.

• Spring 1: 4/4
• Brides 1: 4/4
• Summer 1A: 4/4
• Summer 1B: 3/4
• Brave 1: 3/4
• Dancers 1: 4/4
• Halloween 1: 3/4
• Winter 1: 2/4
• New Year's 1: 3/4
• Valentine's 1: 3.5/5
• Fallen 1: 2/4
• Spring 2: 3/4
• Brides 2: 2.5/4
• Summer 2A: 2.5/4
• Summer 2B: 1.5/4
• Dancers 2: 3.5/4
• Brave 2: 3/4
• Halloween 2: 2.5/5
• Adrift: 4/5
• Winter 2: 2/4
• New Year's 2: 4/5
• Hot Springs: 4/5
• Valentine's 2: 2.5/5
• Spring 3: 4/5
• Fallen 2: 1/5
• Picnic: 1.5/5
• Brides 3: 4/5
• Summer 3A: 5/5
• Summer 3B: 4/5
• Brave 3: 1.5/4
• Dancers 3: 3/5
• Halloween 3: 3/5
• Winter 3: 2.5/5
• New Year's 3: 3.5/5
• Valentine's 3: 2/5
• Spring 4: 4/5
• Anniversary: 4/5
• Brides 4: 3.5/5
• Summer 4A: 2.5/5
• Summer 4B: 4/5
• Pirates: 3/5
• Brave 4: 0/4

I think it's fair to say that there's been some drop, at least since Book 1.

37 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I actually think this is pretty likely to happen again. Anytime a new game is released that years cyl will probably be filled to the brim with the new characters. I don't think thats an issue though given these particular characters could be different and more interesting.

I was thinking in the near future, but yeah if we get another fully new game during Heroes' life, yeah, this will probably happen again. I'd expect just once per game, though.

[Eltosian Kadath]

I found it incredibly boring, but also expected. When the CYL poll made it entirely Three Houses, the CYL banner lost its celebratory feel for me, as it was no longer about the franchise as a whole, and was instead simply another Three Houses banner. As a Three Houses banner, it reinforces the incredibly boring way Heroes has been handling the classes of characters that could become almost anything that the player wishes.

[Sunwoo]

39 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Remember Pirate Geese, who has a lance? Or Pirate Veronica, who has an axe? Or Summer Joshua with a bow? Spring Bartre with a sword? Spring Fir on a pegasus with an axe? Spring Est with a blue tome?

Obviously I didn't say "all" characters in "all" instances. I'm aware there are exceptions this year, as there were early on with Summer Leo being a red mage again. And the first three Hectors all being axe armors (and all of his forms being armors in general). And all Tharjas being a red tome.

I'm also not inclined to give Veronica and Joshua a full pass because 3/4 Veronicas are green (and I am including Thrasir) and despite wielding a bow, Joshua just HAD to get a red bow and be infantry despite already being a red infantry sword.

[Ice Dragon]

18 minutes ago, Othin said:

We could put numbers to it, but we'd need a consistent standard. Let's say... entirely new weapon (sword/lance/axe/bow/dagger/tome/staff/breath/beast) is worth 1 point. Different color variation of an established weapon type is worth 0.5 points, while an exact match is worth 0 points. If a unit gets added first as an alt then later as a regular version, their regular version still counts. If the regular version hasn't been added, we can guess their weapon type if there's a clear choice (I would say Mikoto and Rinea have no clear choice) but can't normally assume it's the same color (with Ilyana being an exception). If the same weapon type shows up on multiple alts, it counts as new for the first one but not for later ones. This doesn't address movement type, but that would make things even more complicated.

We're specifically talking about seasonal alts and getting weapons that are "normal" to the character, not just being the exact same as their original version (e.g. Caeda with a lance would still count as "normal" and Dancer Shigure with a tome would not count as "normal" even though it was his first appearance).

 

13 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Obviously I didn't say "all" characters in "all" instances. I'm aware there are exceptions this year, as there were early on with Summer Leo being a red mage again. And the first three Hectors all being axe armors (and all of his forms being armors in general). And all Tharjas being a red tome.

It's not the mere existence of exceptions that I'm trying to highlight, but the number of them.

(I'm also skipping all Three Houses characters in my assessment because I have not yet played the game and have no idea what is considered "normal" for them.)

 

13 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

I'm also not inclined to give Veronica and Joshua a full pass because 3/4 Veronicas are green (and I am including Thrasir) and despite wielding a bow, Joshua just HAD to get a red bow and be infantry despite already being a red infantry sword.

...Really? I can see lumping multi-colored weapons together as a single weapon type, but we're also just going to count weapons of the same color as one thing, too? Really?

Edited August 22, 2020 by Ice Dragon

[Othin]

14 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

We're specifically talking about seasonal alts and getting weapons that are "normal" to the character, not just being the exact same as their original version (e.g. Caeda with a lance would still count as "normal" and Dancer Shigure with a tome would not count as "normal" even though it was his first appearance).

I'm not redoing the numbers, but feel free to do so yourself if you think it'd change things.

[Jotari]

So if I was in control I think I would have given them the following weapon and movement types.

Lysithea - Mounted Staff wielding Thrysus.

Edelgard - Armoured blue dagger wielding Oath Dagger (blue is a bit weird on Edelgard given her red colour scheme, but I needed a blue unit and it makes sense if you consider it Dimitri's dagger).

Dimitri - Infantry green bow wielding Failnaught (it's be a bit weird for Failnaught to debut on Dimitri instead of Claude, but not only would this be a call back to the borrowing weapons theme, but Claude literally does hand Failnaught over to Dimitri in Azure Moon. So there is precedent in canon).

Claude - Flying Sword wielding the sword of Begalta (yes were coming down with swords, but at least it's not sword infantry and the Sword of Begalta is a genuine weapon which exists that I hope can be included in the game at some point).

Huh it's a shame Edelgard never gives Claude anything throughout the game (or like even interacts at all aside from that one Rhea doujin scene) otherwise we could have had a nice trinity of gifted weapons.

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Jotari

[Ice Dragon]

9 minutes ago, Othin said:

I'm not redoing the numbers, but feel free to do so yourself if you think it'd change things.

@Sunwoo

I mean, we haven't even settled on what qualifies as samey yet. For example, Xander can use both swords and lances in his base class, so that technically puts Spring Xander in "normal" range. Camilla can use both axes and magic in her base class, so that technically puts Spring Camilla in "normal" range, too. Elise gains the ability to use tomes in one of her default class's promotions (arguably the more canon branch and the one used in Warriors), making Summer Elise also at least somewhat "normal".

Ike, Lyn, and Lucina all have access to their CYL versions' weapon types when promoted in their default classes (though Ike does so only in Radiant Dawn).

Things are muddy.

[Sunwoo]

41 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

...Really? I can see lumping multi-colored weapons together as a single weapon type, but we're also just going to count weapons of the same color as one thing, too? Really?

Not in all instances. But in cases that I consider egregious enough, like already having multiple alts of that same color or they didn't absolutely HAVE to be that color (like in the case of colored bows/daggers) ... yeah.

What different people consider to be "too same-y" amongst character alts is not always going to be the same. Sometimes, people have different criteria for what they consider to be unnecessarily similar. It doesn't make them wrong, as long as they can justify their thought process. And I realize that what I think is too "same-y" might be too broad for other people's definitions. You may not agree with it, but that doesn't make me objectively wrong if I have my reasons for it, and honestly I don't give a shit whether you agree with me or not, or see my reasonings as valid.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Sunwoo

[Mercakete]

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Dimitri - Infantry green bow wielding Failnaught (it's be a bit weird for Failnaught to debut on Dimitri instead of Claude, but not only would this be a call back to the borrowing weapons theme, but Claude literally does hand Failnaught over to Dimitri in Azure Moon. So there is precedent in canon).

Uhh wouldn't that turn him into a black beast since he doesn't have the crest to match Failnaught? (This is why Failnaught stayed in the convoy during my Azure Moon route.)

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

You may not agree with it, but that doesn't make me objectively wrong if I have my reasons for it, and honestly I don't give a shit whether you agree with me or not because I don't care what you think.

In that case, it's still possible to determine objectively if you're right or wrong simply by deciding what counts and what doesn't. I'm willing to go along with whatever your definition of samey is because that's purely subjective, as long as the criteria remain consistent and don't keep changing on a case by case basis.

[Sunwoo]

Just now, Ice Dragon said:

In that case, it's still possible to determine objectively if you're right or wrong simply by deciding what counts and what doesn't. I'm willing to go along with whatever your definition of samey is because that's purely subjective, as long as the criteria remain consistent and don't keep changing on a case by case basis.

Well, no duh.

Thank you for your contribution.

[Baldrick]

@Ice Dragon @Sunwoo

I counted it separated by year, considering seasonals, CYL, and Adrift. I discounted Fallen and the Anniversary banner since unlike CYL those are relatively expected to be "normal" (i.e. samey compared to an existing or hypothetical regular unit) and beast seasonals since those seem to be inherently normal (unlike Awakening Tiki or Ninian that got non-breath seasonals).

2017: 27 abnormal, 4 normal, 1 edge case (Winter Chrom is the second axe Chrom seasonal0

2018: 23 abnormal, 20 normal, 3 edge cases (NY Azura, Summer and Adrift Camilla)

2019: 30 abnormal, 29 normal

2020: 18 abnormal, 17 normal

 

So from 2018 onwards, special units have tended to be normal around half of the time.

[Ice Dragon]

Actually, now that I mentioned it... it just struck me that Brave Lucina was literally just Lucina in her promoted class outfit (with a slightly different breastplate on her armor).

Same with Brave Micaiah.

[Troykv]

14 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Actually, now that I mentioned it... it just struck me that Brave Lucina was literally just Lucina in her promoted class outfit (with a slightly different breastplate on her armor).

Same with Brave Micaiah.

To be fair, with Micaiah she doesn't really have a character to take as a potential parental figure besides Yune herself (and the Light Priestess Dress that she is using was bestowed by Yune hersefl), and Micaiah has already options in canon for making new alts, so I can imagine why they decided to go for it, I'm happy to see Light Priestess represented, though one part of me wanted to see something new.

Lucina's case is similar to Micaiah (Lucina is already Marth and Chrom themed all the way through, so everything she used would represent Chrom)... but using the same outfit as her Legendary Self is... weird, because as far as I remember, there exists an Exalt Outfit of Lucina.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Troykv

[Fire Emblem Fan]

I had hoped they'd have different weapons. I had expected Claude's Barbarossa class to actually be his Legendary variant, not his CYL one, and had kinda hoped Claude would use an axe or a sword (lean towards sword because he actually has an associated sword). At the same time, though, after actually putting Edelgard and Dimitri into practice after summoning them, I like the way they function. They're useful. So...I guess I'd be okay either way.

[Ice Dragon]

24 minutes ago, Troykv said:

Lucina's case is similar to Micaiah (Lucina is already Marth and Chrom themed all the way through, so everything she used would represent Chrom)... but using the same outfit as her Legendary Self is... weird, because as far as I remember, there exists an Exalt Outfit of Lucina.

They aren't quite exactly the same. Legendary Lucina has her Great Lord outfit minus the shield. Brave Lucina has her Great Lord outfit with a different breastplate. The breastplate appears to be loosely based off of Chrom's Great Lord armor.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Ice Dragon