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General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

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Regarding Arvis/Saias refine, I just checked in the TT and it's definitely or. So basically Yune's area of effect, but affecting enemies both horizontally and vertically.

@Othin @XRay @LoneStar

I can see why there's the wording issue. Neither one is particularly great because of the colloquial mean of or as being exclusively one or the other which might make it seem like it's only columns or only rows depending on some criteria. Meanwhile and causes this confusion. Personally, I just assumed IS wasn't that incompetent.

Edited by bottlegnomes

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3 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Regarding Arvis/Saias refine, I just checked in the TT and it's definitely or. So basically Yune's area of effect, but affecting enemies both horizontally and vertically.

@Othin @XRay @LoneStar

 

Oh good, thank Naga. In that case, then yeah, I do not think they dropped the ball on everyone. I think Arvis and Saias are the clear winners in this batch.

Still disappointed with Effie and Sigurd though.

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Blizzard Effect on Valflame. Well it makes sense but I can't help but still be a little disappointed that it's not all that great. Wargod's tome being the same weapon only of a different colour is a bit dissapointing too, though not unsurprising (anyone else think Sais should have just been a staff unit? Being a status staff spamming bastard is what he's known for in Thracia after all). Guaranteed follow up isn't really synergising well with Crusader's War on Sigurd, though I suppose more the fool me for giving him Distant Attack.

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36 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Regarding Arvis/Saias refine, I just checked in the TT and it's definitely or. So basically Yune's area of effect, but affecting enemies both horizontally and vertically.

@Othin @XRay @LoneStar

I can see why there's the wording issue. Neither one is particularly great because of the colloquial mean of or as being exclusively one or the other which might make it seem like it's only columns or only rows depending on some criteria. Meanwhile and causes this confusion. Personally, I just assumed IS wasn't that incompetent.

Reduce the stats of foes who are in three columns and (reduce the stats of foes who are in) three rows. It's not technically wrong if you think about it this way.

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  • Divine Tyrfing looks like it'll breath some defensive light into Sigurd, but it really doesn't do anything for his magical tanking. It'll at least supplement people who have him but not LegSeliph, who has the arguably better defensive boons. That's about what the refine does though, I can't imagine any Seliph users clamoring for this over near-permanent Miracle...
  • Effie got... pretty alright I guess. I don't really like the idea of skills that only work on the first round of combat a unit is in, and again why would I take this refine over Brave Hectors refine, who while yes is weaker from a pure Atk standpoint has so many more advantages than Effie that it really isn't funny.
  • Rhajat got a good base weapon. Makes me wonder why Ursula got shafted so hard when Raigh and Rhajat get honestly good effects on their Wolftome prfs. Spd/Res Rein is not something to laugh at. The refine itself is good as well, it gives Rhajat a form of support and heavy amounts of AoE damage. But she needs a safe way to inflict that debuff, the only form of which is the Sweep skills, and that will cut out a lot of her potential damage. Which is a shame, cause combining Pain+, Flash+, and Spd/Res Rein 4 into one wolftome sounds so good in concept, but it's just missing good ol reliable counterattack negation. Might work well with Dance though, and here's hoping that we'll get a Windsweep SS at some point so she can run it and Null Follow-up. That'll make things better for Rhajat.
  • Arvis and Saias pretty easily take the best refine reward. The trigger range is far better than even most premium limited-time units who've tiered high above them for ages, and the bonus damage has potential to be deadly. I do kinda wish they had a way to extend that improved range onto their equipped Ploys, cause now they have an awkward scenario where they can potentially lose out on 5 damage because their target wasn't in range of the equipped Ploy...

Overall... well they're not gonna beat out CYL anytime soon, but the only refine that really does anything for me is Rhajats, and that's only from a theoretical approach of "if we get a Windsweep Sacred Seal." And while Arvis/Saias got it good, being Grail units means it'll be months before I can get the full range of their Ploy game unlocked (especially considering I apparently did a super dumb and used almost all of their books already >.<). I'll just take the refine for Brave Hector now, give Lyn her refine later, and call it a month there.

Edited by Xenomata

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Unique refined Divine Tyrfing is the first weapon I believe to have a doubled effect, thus, beating unique refined Durandal which was the closest to having a doubled effect. Unique refined Durandal has Death Blow 3 and Swift Sparrow 2 which you could consider as being close to having double Death Blow 3. Unique refined Divine Tyrfing has "At start of combat, if unit's HP >= 50%, grants Atk/Def+5 during combat" repeated twice. Granted, the unique refinement has an additional effect, but it is the same effect repeated twice giving Seliph and Sigurd Atk/Def+10 when their HP is >= 50%. Would have been nice its damage reduction been expanded to also work against healers.

Rhajat's new tome is pretty neat. As noted by others, she is a ranged Kempf or a green mage version of Clarisse and Jaffar. The only problem which her fellow peers Shiro and Siegbert suffer from is that as cool as her new weapon is, she's not easily summoned. She is not in new hero summoning pools and unless you like her, you probably will not want be going out of your way to summon for her. At the very least her skills are rarer since Distant Def is still not in the 3* to 4* summoning pool along with Rally Atk/Def whereas Atk Tactic, Death Blow 3, Def Tactic, Dragon Fang, Steady Stance 3, and Swap are and she's the only unit with Keen Gronnwolf by default unlike F!Robin who must evolve her Gronnwolf.

The upgraded base effects of Valflame and Wargod's Tome I understood to be like the range of Chaos Named, Imhullu, or Skadi. At the least, the wording made me think of Chaos Named's range, but the "and within 3 rows" makes me think of a cross type of range which is even better. Regardless, if it does work out well and isn't actually shortened range, it's fine. What I am not thrilled about even though it works is the unique refinement being the same Blizzard effect slapped onto Matthew's Spy's Dagger which immediately had to deal with Broadleaf Fan which can be inherited by other dagger units with significantly higher base attack than Matthew and then Ursula's Blue-Crow Tome. They were going to share effects as weird as it would be for a legendary tome to share with a made-up personal tome, but I was thinking an in-combat Atk/Res debuff could have worked too. So, Lull Atk/Res for a weaker, but field buff neutralizing capable effect or as strong as Mirage Tome's Atk/Res-6 within 2 spaces of the user.

Effie's unique refinement is such a disappointment. The base effect is fine. Not that great, especially since the HP range could have been loosened to >= 25%. Except, I do not have a 5* Seliph with Divine Tyrfing or a Sigurd, so I did not see that Divine Tyrfing's upgraded base effect also has the same HP condition, but trades 1 attack for 5 defense. The best thing about the base effect when compared to her fellow armors who gained new weapons or effects is that it works on both phases, so she isn't purely enemy phase or player phase. The unique refinement is restrictive to say the least. My immediate thought was that this was worse than Dark Royal Spear and worse than Balmung and Blade/Spear of Shadows. They're primarily enemy phase, but can work on player phase against foes at full health which is less restrictive than it only works once per phase. I get she's not a CYL unit or even a recent unit, so she or anyone else it not likely to get something as crazy as unique refined Maltet, Ragnell-Alondite, unique refined Urvan, Wind Parthia, or whatever, but still, it should be all-right at worst or allows the unit to specialize in a specific role like Seth and Titania being T-Adept and Tactics units or Virion being a Sudden Panic bot. The unique refinement is simply disappointing. The base effect as the unique refinement along with the field buff neutralization and whatever as its replaced base effect would have worked out better I think. Going off of what she has in Fates, she does have a Brave Lance in her inventory at some point and her personal skill Puissance made me think of Heavy Blade 4. I guess they took the title "Army of One" too literally as the unique refinement only works one time per phase...

Moving on, I feel like by virtue of having access to the weapon like Eliwood did with Blazing Durandal, Seliph definitely won big. Probably not as big as Eliwood since unique refined Blazing Durandal is a nutty sword, but unlike Eliwood, Seliph has access to two weapon with very different specializations. Regular Tyrfing allows Seliph to be obnoxious by preventing ORKOs if his HP is at least 50%, but does have a less than thrilling unique refinement of Atk/Def Bond 3 while Divine Tyrfing lets Seliph stack a lot of attack and defense and grants him Quick Riposte 5 on top of the usual damage reduction against mages.

That said, had Rhajat been demoted instead of Soleil or demoted at all, I feel like she would have been the winner of this weapon update. A ranged Kempf or green mage version of Clarisse and Jaffar is pretty good as out of combat damage and inflicting counterattack prevention are useful. Unfortunately, she is not summonable as a 3* to 4* unit or able to be obtained as a grail unit. To that, she's more of a sleeper hit for people who do not have or want to invest the resources in getting her.

Vaflame and Wargod's Tome are just good. Not much to say about them. It's just that it wasn't like Arvis or Saias gained access to second weapon or entered into a niche. They're as usual the Ploy Boys.

Edited by Kaden

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10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

  Reduce the stats of foes who are in three columns and (reduce the stats of foes who are in) three rows. It's not technically wrong if you think about it this way.

I think that's the issue with this type of phraseology. Neither one is technically wrong given certain interpretations, but both are prone to misunderstandings due to lack of clarity and connotations of words. The only way around it is being particularly verbose, which FEH doesn't always have room to do. It's a linguistic rock and a hard place. Though reading the exact wording back, they could have just added "foes within" so it would read "At start of turn, inflicts Atk/Res-5 on foes within 3 columns and foes within 3 rows centered on unit through their next actions." Still not the clearest, but probably would've helped some.

Looking at the ploy skills' descriptions they could've gone with the more flowery route of "At start of turn, all foes in cardinal directions of unit and unit's adjacent spaces suffer Atk/Res-5 until the end of foe's next action." But well, that's being a bit silly.

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11 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

I think that's the issue with this type of phraseology. Neither one is technically wrong given certain interpretations, but both are prone to misunderstandings due to lack of clarity and connotations of words. The only way around it is being particularly verbose, which FEH doesn't always have room to do. It's a linguistic rock and a hard place. Though reading the exact wording back, they could have just added "foes within" so it would read "At start of turn, inflicts Atk/Res-5 on foes within 3 columns and foes within 3 rows centered on unit through their next actions." Still not the clearest, but probably would've helped some.

Looking at the ploy skills' descriptions they could've gone with the more flowery route of "At start of turn, all foes in cardinal directions of unit and unit's adjacent spaces suffer Atk/Res-5 until the end of foe's next action." But well, that's being a bit silly.

I don't think this is vague at all. Can't think of a way that could be misinterpreted at all. And adding two extra words would still make it far from the longest weapon description out there.

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Apparently there is an error with the English description of Divine Tyrfing's unique refinement? It works based on the foe's HP and not Seliph's/Sigurd's.

 

Edited by Kaden

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1 hour ago, Kaden said:

Apparently there is an error with the English description of Divine Tyrfing's unique refinement? It works based on the foe's HP and not Seliph's/Sigurd's.

 

So the follow up the Atk/Def+5 buff uses foe's Hp and the damage reduction and Atk/Def +5 use units Hp. That weapon is extremely good, a mixed phase follow up, damage reduction to mages and +10 Atk/Def. Will be using the refine on Seliph. 

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Guess I can now safely sack my OG 5* Effie who I gave DC to ages ago then proceeded to never use. Feels less bad than sacking a Nagi for DC only to a non-armour. Ironically Seliph would be a good choice in this batch, but I'm not going to do that on top of spending 350 dew. In reality I'll probably end up sitting on it for months anyway because I haven't been in a unit-building frame of mind lately.

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2 hours ago, Javi Blizz said:

Wow, Effie’s refine is trash. First Donnel and now this, what have I done to you, FEH?

Wait, how is Donnel's Hewn Lance bad compared to Effie's lance? Donnel is shoehorned into a Brave infantry when "everyone" wanted a Casa Blanca or enemy phase type lance for him, but Hewn Lance with its unique refinement effectively gives him a 15 Mt Brave Lance with Def+4 and follow-up prevention as bonuses. I get things like damage reduction, penalty neutralization or reversing, and such are all the rage and Brave units are dealing with higher and higher defenses, but Hewn Lance is pretty good and it's not like it was given to a unit with low attack. At worst, Donnel is a lance version of Ross with his default Brave Axe. That's fine and would have been better had lance infantry had more 3* to 4* summonable units or even a grail unit.

The absolute worst thing I see with units getting weapons, good ones at that, that players do not want is that they have another option should they ever need it. Frederick comes to mind where his axe is great for when you absolutely need him or someone to crush armors, but if you already had invested in him to be an enemy phase unit with whatever axe, then he can still continue to use it and do well. An underwhelming or straight-up bad weapon is simply dead-weight and Hewn Lance is definitely not one of those. You want dead-weight? Go to Takumi who is about to get a Hel outfit for his resplendent.

Edited by Kaden

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5 hours ago, Kaden said:

Apparently there is an error with the English description of Divine Tyrfing's unique refinement? It works based on the foe's HP and not Seliph's/Sigurd's.

 

So the base effect is still dependent on his own HP, right? But the refine effects depend on his opponent's?

That's a bit more complicated, but should be about as good, maybe even better.

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3 hours ago, Javi Blizz said:

Wow, Effie’s refine is trash. First Donnel and now this, what have I done to you, FEH?

 

1 hour ago, Kaden said:

Wait, how is Donnel's Hewn Lance bad compared to Effie's lance? Donnel is shoehorned into a Brave infantry when "everyone" wanted a Casa Blanca or enemy phase type lance for him, but Hewn Lance with its unique refinement effectively gives him a 15 Mt Brave Lance with Def+4 and follow-up prevention as bonuses. I get things like damage reduction, penalty neutralization or reversing, and such are all the rage and Brave units are dealing with higher and higher defenses, but Hewn Lance is pretty good and it's not like it was given to a unit with low attack. At worst, Donnel is a lance version of Ross with his default Brave Axe. That's fine and would have been better had lance infantry had more 3* to 4* summonable units or even a grail unit.

The absolute worst thing I see with units getting weapons, good ones at that, that players do not want is that they have another option should they ever need it. Frederick comes to mind where his axe is great for when you absolutely need him or someone to crush armors, but if you already had invested in him to be an enemy phase unit with whatever axe, then he can still continue to use it and do well. An underwhelming or straight-up bad weapon is simply dead-weight and Hewn Lance is definitely not one of those. You want dead-weight? Go to Takumi who is about to get a Hel outfit for his resplendent.

Donnel's Prf is not bad. It's actually pretty good.

For a player that built Donnel as an enemy phase unit... Sure, its not a good weapon for him.. but he became pretty strong with his new lance.

I have been using Donnel to Galeforce recently, and he have a nice Atk to trigger Heavy Blade. And I used Donnel in his Arena season, and he did an amazing job there.

...

Oh, and Kaden...

"Dead"-weight... "Hel" outfit... I get it. lol

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I've been seeing talk about using Arvis and Saias on AR defense to inflict guaranteed Atk/Res debuffs on the whole field, to make everyone vulnerable to stuff like Thrasir. Does Atk/Res Bond 4 successfully counter that? I remember some stuff about weird penalty interactions that made it sound like it wouldn't work properly in the past (the penalties themselves would be gone, but other skills would still treat them as if they were there), but was corrected in an update earlier this year, is that correct?

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4 minutes ago, Othin said:

I've been seeing talk about using Arvis and Saias on AR defense to inflict guaranteed Atk/Res debuffs on the whole field, to make everyone vulnerable to stuff like Thrasir. Does Atk/Res Bond 4 successfully counter that? I remember some stuff about weird penalty interactions that made it sound like it wouldn't work properly in the past (the penalties themselves would be gone, but other skills would still treat them as if they were there), but was corrected in an update earlier this year, is that correct?

That is correct

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Disappointed in Divine Tyrfing on Sigurd, but it is still a notable power bump for him. I need to find a new B skill for him though, as I'm running DC/QR3 combo. Probably Lull Spd/Def.

 

However, Seliph is a clear winner here. The weapon seems tailor-made for him. I might pair it with Guard 3 for further tanking, with Sol to help keep him in those hp thresholds. 

Edited by Fabulously Olivier

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I found that Distant Foil works really well with Sigurd. He can still tank magic with Crusader's Ward and Divine Tyrfing just fine (while also maximizing the effect), while also pretty much taking little to no damage from physical units, while also being able to counterattack daggers and bows. While +Atk and +Def would work the best, +Spd can help avoid doubles in certain circumstances.

Seliph benefits the most from Divine Tyrfing's refine, no doubt about it. I gotta say, Seliph has been taking home a lot of W's recently.

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Thinking about Rhajat's refine, I wonder if we'll ever get a weapon that inflicts AoE damage and/or status before combat rather than after. Like how we've been getting weapons like Lunar Arc that basically have certain combat specials built-in to always be active, but in this case, it would be a weaker variant of an AoE special. 

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On 9/28/2020 at 8:09 AM, Ice Dragon said:

As much as replacing Ploy with Sabotage is likely, I'd personally prefer it if they just extended the Ploy effect's range to 3 rows and 3 columns instead of needing the enemy adjacency requirement of Sabotage.

And they even removed the stat comparison requirement. Nice.

Blizzard was kind of the obvious choice for the refine effect, but I really wish they didn't reuse Spy's Dagger's icon for it. Honestly, I wish they'd just stop making "custom" icons for refine skill effects.

 

I'm not sure how Divine Tyrfing's refine can be disappointing on Sigurd, but amazing on Seliph. Seliph has worse Atk, Spd, and Def than Sigurd, and the infantry-exclusive skills that Sigurd doesn't have access to don't really benefit Seliph all that much. Seliph's Spd is too low to make good use of Null Follow-Up and Evasion skills. Null C-Disrupt is only good against Firesweep Bow and Sacae's Blessing because Divine Tyrfing does jack squat against staves, which are far more common.

Forcing Desperation on enemies would only be useful when running Crusader's Ward, and while building around Crusader's Ward is cool thematically, that doesn't change the fact that the skill is situational. You're either running Crusader's Ward and a purely close-range set, Crusader's Ward and Distant Foil, or no Crusader's Ward and Distant Counter.

Either way, a +10 Sigurd [+Atk] now has 68 Atk before buffs and passive skills, which is pretty nice. That's 6 Atk away from being able to one-hit kill a +10 Legendary Alm that has no bulk investment.

 

Effie's Lance is amazing for the Arena, where you usually have no trouble fighting only one round of combat per turn. It's not as good as the other recent 4-star armor refines, but I'm willing to excuse that since she actually has an Atk stat. I hope we get her as an Arena bonus unit soon since I'm seriously hemorrhaging feathers due to not having bonus units already merged.

 

And Obsessive Curse is Gronnwolf + Spd/Res Rein + Venin Edge. I'm not quite sure what this weapon wants to be. Rhajat at least has a really solid offensive stat spread to begin with, and Spd/Res Rein boosts her up to 40/39 offensively, which is very good, though she suffers from not being easily mergeable, where a +10 Nino has a comparable 37/40 offensive spread and more than makes up for the difference in Atk with her weapon's Litrblade effect.

Venin Edge is an offensive support effect, but without a Sweep effect, Rhajat needs to not die to the enemy you want to attack, making it less reliable than Flash+ in exchange for having more offensive presence.

Not great, but certainly not bad. Rhajat still mostly just suffers from being difficult to merge.

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6 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Effie's Lance is amazing for the Arena, where you usually have no trouble fighting only one round of combat per turn. It's not as good as the other recent 4-star armor refines, but I'm willing to excuse that since she actually has an Atk stat. I hope we get her as an Arena bonus unit soon since I'm seriously hemorrhaging feathers due to not having bonus units already merged.

It seems like the common units that get refines then show up as arena bonus units sometime that month, although I'm not sure how long or consistent of a precedent there is for that.

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8 hours ago, indigoasis said:

I found that Distant Foil works really well with Sigurd. He can still tank magic with Crusader's Ward and Divine Tyrfing just fine (while also maximizing the effect), while also pretty much taking little to no damage from physical units, while also being able to counterattack daggers and bows. While +Atk and +Def would work the best, +Spd can help avoid doubles in certain circumstances.

Seliph benefits the most from Divine Tyrfing's refine, no doubt about it. I gotta say, Seliph has been taking home a lot of W's recently.

Distant Foil does seem like a good choice on him, though Crusader's Ward does help protect against bows that Distant Foil would still be interrupting. So combined that with the fact that I gave Sigurd Distant Counter like three years ago and I really don't want it to be a waste, I think it would have been great if his refine had a "If foe's range = 2/If foe uses magic, foe can make a follow up attack before unit can counter attack."

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