Book 1 5*s will still be summonable on most focus circles

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Lord-Zero said:

LA!Eliwood has Goad Armor if you still want it that badly. 

Ahem:

3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Grails are expensive.

[Lord-Zero]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

Ahem:

...and? I know that already. Just save the grails. This just means that you have to ration the resources. Not a big deal unless you’re crazy about making “big” projects. 

[NegativeExponents-]

6 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

This change just means that the “removed” units will be more desirable. 

Ugh, knowing that greed was what made them do this stupid decision makes it even worse.

10 minutes ago, Kaden said:

To make Arden as fast as possible. :p

Just gonna leave this here

Spoiler

 

 

[alatartheblue42]

1 hour ago, TheNiddo said:

Why do this? Because aiming for an awesome new character and getting pity broken by a Mist or Jaffar or Lyn sucks.

See, I know that this is a common stance for the community as a whole, but I'm one of the weird ones. I actually like Mist, and I wish I had more than one copy of her. I've never gotten a Jaffar or original Lyn, both units I've been hoping for since their release. Now, its impossible for me to get them. Sure, I'll just pull on non-new banners. Yeah, me and what orbs? I'm a broke-ass college student; I can't afford to whale for a unit that I'm not obsessed beyond reason with. Not that I would want to spend money on FEH at this point anyway.

30 minutes ago, Silafante said:

People: We don't want to get pity broken by Mist or Luke.

IS: Makes a way to not get pity broken by those and other units when you summon for new units (which is when pity breakers hurt more).

People: Screw you IS, you do everything for money!

The h*ll people?

They could've, you know, demoted them instead? Of all the units that deserve to be 5*s because of their popularity, their skills, etc, do you really think that someone like Luke is fitting? Why the hell is he 5* locked? The people who want him for his character would love to see him at a lower rarity, so that they actually have a chance in hell of getting him. The people who want his mediocre skills would likewise be happy. The people who don't want to be pitybroken by him won't be pitybroken.

But no, IS decided to punish anyone who is interested in older units. "Screw you, players. You have to choose between getting the old heroes that you like, or the new heroes that you like. Oh, and don't forget, new heroes are the ones that define the meta. And we're gradually reducing your orb supply. Have fun!"

19 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

It just means that those players can focus on saving for when those characters become focus units in a future banner. 

I don't have the orb supply to justify rolling for a original Olwen instead of saving those for new characters. Hell, the primary reason I skip non-new banners is because I always have a chance to get units I don't have by sheer luck. Because they're always in the pool. Oh, wait.

Edited April 5, 2019 by alatartheblue42

[Nanima]

4 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

Well, those units just became more desirable so it now gives the developers an excuse to drop the likes of Mist in a fodder banner if they want to. There’s also the possibility of Mist showing up in a VG banner or the monthly Legendary/Mythic banners. Seasonal banner reruns will be left mostly untouched so she can spook you there as well. She really has no business being a 5*, though

Again, you are just assuming they'll be available more often with nothing to prove that. They have made no statement that old gen 1s will be getting more frequent focuses now. And frankly I have a hard time believing they will. Mist on a Legendary banner? You do remember she was skipped over when she had a chance to appear on one? And there have been almoat no old gen 1s on them for a while, besides Brave!Lyn but she is a special case. And oh great, I can continue hoping it will be Mist pity breaking me and not another freaking Jaffar on these specific banners. Yay.

I never said I loved the old system, but I had good reason to hope they'd actually demote gen 1 5*s and replace most of the old 3-4* pool with them. Many gachas have a similar system in place, so it was not unreasonable. They didn't and instead gave us a shittier version of the old system. Sorry for not sinking to my knees in awe.

[XRay]

27 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

LA!Eliwood has Goad Armor if you still want it that badly. 

As a paying player, spending Grails for skill fodder is a waste of resources. That is what Orbs are for. I do not mind wasting Orbs a bit since I can get a huge amount of them.

Grails on the other hand are time gated. I do not care for Goad Armor, but I do care for Hone Fliers and wasting Grails on Hone Fliers is not something I consider a good use of resources.

27 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

This change just means that the “removed” units will be more desirable.

I do not think that is how it works. In economics, reducing supply will increase the price of something, but it does not mean it will increase the demand of something. The demand curve stays the same. In fact, with higher prices, the quantity demanded may even drop.

To shift the demand curve right (making it more desirable), you have to do something to Panic Ploy to make it better rather than just adjusting its supply. Supplying more of it will make cheaper and make people buy it more, and it increases quantity demanded, but I do not think it is anymore desirable. They can make Armored Blow as abundant and cheap as they want, but that does not make it any more desirable.

For clarification, "quantity supplied" and "quantity demanded" are different from "supply" and "demand".

Edited April 5, 2019 by XRay

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Lord-Zero said:

...and? I know that already. Just save the grails. This just means that you have to ration the resources. Not a big deal unless you’re crazy about making “big” projects. 

Depending on the player's goal, it is physically impossible to save Grails. Grails are distributed at a slower rate than characters requiring Grails to max with no ability to speed up the acquisition rate, meaning it is entirely possible to never be able to "save" Grails.

[Nowi's Husband]

I was still hoping to be pity broken by Jaffar, Mist, and Brave Ike someday, guess not.  Mist and Ike I have other forms of, but Jaffar I will have to pull for if he ever shows up on banner again.  Also Sanaki, YTiki, Delthea, Amelia, and Elise pity breakers would have been fine for merges, but I'm not going out of my way to pull for those, only a new Nowi form or Nah are 5* exclusives I will try to merge.  Was hoping they'd just get demoted instead.  

[Ice Dragon]

This can actually easily be remedied by simply running a larger number of character rerun banners, but I see no indication that they'll do such a thing because they seem entirely incompetent when it comes to summoning pool management and character availability.

[Lord-Zero]

22 minutes ago, XRay said:

Grails on the other hand are time gated. I do not care for Goad Armor, but I do care for Hone Fliers and wasting Grails on Hone Fliers is not something I consider a good use of resources.

I do not think that is how it works.

At the very least the option is there even if you have to use a very limited source of currency. All it means is that you now have to plan very carefully on what to use said limited resources on and for what reason. In any case, the developers managed to turn those mostly outdated units more desirable to a degree.

We’ll see how the developers work these things out soon enough. 

@Ice Dragon “Physically impossible to save grails”

Unless you never bother with Aether Raids, I can see that happening. Just doing Aether Raids once a day every day or at least once a week is enough to earn at least a few grails. It’s just a matter of saving even if it takes months. 

[XRay]

25 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

This can actually easily be remedied by simply running a larger number of character rerun banners, but I see no indication that they'll do such a thing because they seem entirely incompetent when it comes to summoning pool management and character availability.

Just make all Foci annual Foci.

17 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

At the very least the option is there even if you have to use a very limited source of currency. All it means is that you now have to plan very carefully on what to use said limited resources on and for what reason. In any case, the developers managed to turn those mostly outdated units more desirable to a degree.

The point is that that is a total waste of resources because there is a huge opportunity cost involved. Those Grails could have gone to merges; Grails are the only reliable way for limited units to get merges. To a paying player with large wallets, spending Grails on skill fodder is the equivalent of spending 20,000 Feathers on Bartre simply to get Fury 3. Spending Grails on skill fodder is basically resource mismanagement, and why the hell do I want to mismanage my resources?

And no, reducing supply does not make a unit more desirable. The demand of old units stay the same, and quantity demanded goes down due to higher prices.

If you want to increase demand, you need to make improvements to Panic Ploy, introduce modes where it is more relevant, or do something to make it better. To increase quantity demanded, you need to increase supply to cause a price drop or just directly drop prices.

Edited April 5, 2019 by XRay

[Ice Dragon]

29 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

Unless you never bother with Aether Raids, I can see that happening. Just doing Aether Raids once a day every day or at least once a week is enough to earn at least a few grails. It’s just a matter of saving even if it takes months. 

Grails are distributed at a rate of approximately 100 Grails per week or about 400 Grails per month. Assuming 1 new Grand Hero Battle unit and 1 new Tempest Trials unit per month (which is the current average rate that they are being released), you need 3,050 Grails per month to be able to +10 merge every new Grand Hero Battle unit and new Tempest Trials unit.

This is clearly impossible. In fact, at the current rate, you can only +10 merge 1 out of every 8 new Heroes that are purchasable with Grails.

Saving Grails does not increase the rate that you acquire Grails nor does it decrease the cost of Heroes, meaning no matter how much you save, you are never going to be able to catch up on merges, meaning there are zero Grails available for use for Skill Inheritance.

As for why merges carry so much weight in this comparison and Skill Inheritance carries so little, the only way to acquire merges beyond the copies available as map and quest rewards is through Heroic Grails, whereas every inheritable non-weapon skill available from Grail units is available from some other means.

As @XRay says, the use of Grails for Skill Inheritance is grossly sub-optimal usage of resources.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Ice Dragon

[Strullemia]

Yeah, not happy with this change.

I still want a handful amount of these removed units and now I can only get them when they're focus units or by being pity broken in a Skill/TT or GHB banner. 

1. How many people spend orbs on a banner in the hopes of being pity broken?!

2. They got rid of these units because most of them weren't as good as the other 5 star units, right? If that's the case then there's even less reason to make focus banners for these units since their skills aren't even worthy of a skill banner.

Oh, and I also like to point out that they didn't rerun Ishtar's BHB banner last month. If they do that for every BHB that has Gen 1 focus units we'll have even less chances to get them.

[Garlyle]

Gen 1 units in 5* pool still, but why? Bad stats, expensive to fix with flowers(some still bad after it), little to no good fodders, what are the purpose of these units to be in 5* pool still?

Azura, Elise, Lucina, Olwen, Karel, Mist doesn't have anything you can't get from 3-4. Linde, Lyn, Minerva, Ryoma, Tiki, Ephraim, Julia, Eldigan, Sanaki, Jaffar only have personal weapons. 

The real pain is that now I have less chance to get Ayra, the one unit I was hoping to get for a long time already, and instead of giving us a quality change in summoning pool, they are making it so we'll have less chance to find these units. Ayra for example didn't had a focus banner for 1 year, the last focus banner she had was last year 4/22. At least if we had banners that had no interesting units for me, I went for the free red orb so at least there's a minimalistic chance to get a red pitybreaker. Sigurd, Ayra, Nephenee, Deirdre and Brave Lyn feels so weird for me to be removed from the pool - they all have some roles for them that makes them valuable. I'm pretty sure most people agree on Brave Lyn, as she is still part of some builds, which can be scary to be honest.

So that's my thoughts as of now. If people ask me "What's bad about the changes?", I'd ask back: "What's good about the changes?"

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Garlyle said:

"What's good about the changes?"

If you want Focus units from New Heroes Foci and new Special Heroes Foci, then those Focus units are easier to get.

Never mind that. Some colors is easier to snipe, but some colors got harder to snipe.

Edited April 5, 2019 by XRay

[Reiska]

3 minutes ago, XRay said:

If you want Focus units from New Heroes Foci and new Special Heroes Foci, then those Focus units are easier to get.

Incorrect.  Focus units' odds are completely unchanged.  The only thing that changed is the relative quality of off-focus units.

[Baldrick]

52 minutes ago, Garlyle said:

"What's good about the changes?"

The quality of pitybreakers on new banners is objectively improved. As a unit gets older, the skill fodder becomes less valuable, and the more likely a player will have obtained the unit by accident or deliberately.

There's literally nothing bad about this change. If you summoned on NH banners hoping that you'd get pitybroken by a specific old unit, then you can still piss away your orbs any remix banner now or in the future.

[mampfoid]

Oh great, both my merging projects were kicked out of the general pool.

Oh wait, I can summon on the crappy banners and hope for a non-Luke pity-breaker. 

[XRay]

45 minutes ago, Reiska said:

Incorrect.  Focus units' odds are completely unchanged.  The only thing that changed is the relative quality of off-focus units.

Oh yeah, you are right. I did the math, and it is slightly easier to get green and colorless Focus units (assuming the Focus has one Focus unit of each color), but it is balanced out by it getting slightly harder to get red and blue Focus units. You are less likely to be pity broken by red and colorless units compared to before, but you are also more likely to be pity broken by blue and green units.

FOCUS Pre Update
	Focus	3%	Non-Focus	3%	4*	58%	3*	36%	Snipe F	Snipe PB
Red	1	0.7500%	41	1.1389%	32	17.0275%	28	10.5000%	2.5496%	3.8716%
Blue	1	0.7500%	28	0.7778%	29	15.4312%	25	9.3750%	2.8480%	2.9535%
Green	1	0.7500%	21	0.5833%	20	10.6422%	18	6.7500%	4.0052%	3.1152%
Colorless	1	0.7500%	18	0.5000%	28	14.8991%	25	9.3750%	2.9384%	1.9589%
Total	4	3.0000%	108	3.0000%	109	58.0000%	96	36.0000%
FOCUS Post Update
	Focus	3%	Non-Focus	3%	4*	58%	3*	36%	Snipe F	Snipe PB
Red	1	0.7500%	17	1.0408%	32	17.0275%	32	10.6667%	2.5437%	3.5300%
Blue	1	0.7500%	13	0.7959%	29	15.4312%	29	9.6667%	2.8149%	2.9873%
Green	1	0.7500%	12	0.7347%	20	10.6422%	19	6.3333%	4.0628%	3.9799%
Colorless	1	0.7500%	7	0.4286%	28	14.8991%	28	9.3333%	2.9515%	1.6866%
Total	4	3.0000%	49	3.0000%	109	58.0000%	108	36.0000%

Edited April 5, 2019 by XRay

[Othin]

It's weird, but I don't think it's bad. The fact that we still have the option to access the old summoning pool on secondary banners means there's little downside, just more control available over what we summon, and the new one is generally better anyway.

Plus, people did literally ask to no longer be pitybroken by old 5* units. I'd commented that demoting them to the 4-5* pool wouldn't accomplish that (and demoting them to 3-4* sure as hell wasn't going to happen anytime soon) but this does. Personally I would have preferred changing them to the 4-5* pool, but I don't see a reason to complain.

[Jingle Jangle]

There are a lot of 5* units I want to have or I want better ivs for such as:

• Arya
• Sanaki
• Katarina
• young Tiki
• Brave Lucina
• Nephenee
• Azura
• Hinoka
• Minerva
• Deirdre
• Sonya

Now I am going to have a significantly harder time finding them. Sure the summoning pool is "better" but it still has the common tired old faces since launch. 

[Diovani Bressan]

Here's the list of 5★ Heroes that can be summoned in New Heroes and Special Heroes Banners:

Siegbert Zelgius Fallen Celica Leif Exalted Chrom Sword Reinhardt Lene Karla Flying Olivia Brave Celica Laevatein Laegjarn Owain Flora Mage Eirika Adrift Camilla Tibarn Keaton

Shiro Fallen Hardin Sumia Brave Hector Quan Ylgr Micaiah Female Morgan Ishtar Ophelia Kliff Adrift Male Corrin Nailah Selkie

Brave Ephraim Helbindi Surtr Rhajat Green Olwen Flying Nino Lewyn Myrrh Male Grima Female Kana Adrift Female Corrin Reyson (*) Kaden

Kinshi Hinoka Nina Maribelle Brave Veronica Loki Mikoto Leanne Velouria

(*) Reyson also appears in the 4★ pool.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Diovani Bressan

[Baldrick]

1 hour ago, Jingle Jangle said:

There are a lot of 5* units I want to have or I want better ivs for such as:

• Arya
• Sanaki
• Katarina
• young Tiki
• Brave Lucina
• Nephenee
• Azura
• Hinoka
• Minerva
• Deirdre
• Sonya

Now I am going to have a significantly harder time finding them. Sure the summoning pool is "better" but it still has the common tired old faces since launch. 

What Gen 2 characters do you want to have or improve IVs? Because they became "significantly" easier to find.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Baldrick

[Stroud]

I don't know if counting on pity break for a certain character is a reason to dislike the changes.. If I badly want a unit from the old days I save up my orbs and try to get them on a skill banner. I did so with Deirdre and got her to +10. Its more about priorities if you are f2p you have to take priorities and cannot wish for them all, well even whales need to have some kind of priority depending on their income. And I think colorless for instance becomes really good with it. Almost no PB I would be mad about.

Of course Hector is a shame, he was a good fodder until now, but getting a more likely pity break from Nailah is nice. Compared to Hector she is a premium fodder. Sadly not for me, because I'd like to merge her. 

What I agree more with is the bloating 3-4* pool. Wish they would also have taken out some units there. It does not get easier to get a certain unit there. 
 

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Stroud

[mcsilas]

@Diovani Bressan I think you mean Shiro as the Lance unit and not Siegbert.

Colourless has a pretty fair pool left, with probably Nina being the most unwanted depending on who you have. At least this will make getting the new colourless beasts easier, but seeing things like Gaius and 1st gen healers with little skill value still makes me wary to pull colourless a lot.

5 star blue mage pool looks pretty awesome though. Also funny how there are no more 5 star infantry red tomes...and there are only 2 left, both being non-canon alts.