I Can't Believe It's Not SFMM3 Minimafia - Game Over

[CT075]

actually wait what the fuck

Elieson looks very defensive and paranoid atm which does not look very good. Meta suggests that his rant about RVS is usual, but his overreaction to Weapons' vote doesn't look very good in my eyes. Further defensive behavior and a counterattack don't really look good as of now. That said now that RVS is out of play, what do you two have to say about the rest atm?

where is this defensiveness and overreaction you speak of

i'm really not seeing it

The Manix vs Paperblade debacle honestly looks silly tbh. Don't like Manix's reaction to Paperblade calling him out- there was no need to bring your argument over from the theater thread to this one. You basically got suspicious of Paper just because he called you out, and you don't like Aere because he voted you.

##thoughts

Weapons feels to me like he's just posting stuff that tries to look like contributing (Pot this is kettle), but isn't in parts (see: his scumwatch which he never explains any reasons for). He's mostly always being ambiguous about what he's saying, which I don't like.

The tone of his posts also bothers me, ever since he jumped on Elie. Not quite sure what to think of that.

Paperblade also irks me because his contributions consisted of an attack that was not backed up for any reason, and... not much. :/

- On that note, @Shinori: Why did you agree with that? Explain yourself.

I'm now worried about the Elie wagon that formed; considering he's at L-3 (if I'm correct). Can everyone on the wagon state exactly why, with quotes, that Elie is scummy?

Shinori's large post is just kinda... eh. Something about in general it feels off, but I can't quite figure out why (aside from the one point I pointed out above). Maybe it's just my head being a pain.

Also if you don't like Weapons' play at this point do you view Elieson as townish?

how does this even follow

like what

##Vote: Manix Btw, gut feeling is such a convenient argument, it isn't even funny.

at that early stage in the game can you actually think of anything else to go off of

[Sunwoo]

For starters, I would absolutely love to see more from Aere/Seo, and actually anything from Marth, but life I guess.

Aere's post didn't look like he is voting for manix for any serious reason, and I don't particularly like it. Seo looked lazy/wagony, not too good imo.

I ... don't see how I'm being lazy/wagon-y? Or why I should stay home and scum hunt to post more than go to lecture? Explain point 1.

I don't like Weapons' "scumwatch" too much. It kind of feels to me like he's just arbitrarily placing people there for whatever reason (was this ever explained?) and taking them off for reasons I also am not sure of. If I'm not mistaken, he's voting Elieson who wanted to end RVS early and even more for his reaction to said vote? Right now, I'm kind of wary of both him and Elieson and I'm not completely sure what's going on there. Will have to reread both of their posts.

Paperblade and Manix bickering about Manix's "gut feeling" on Weapons. I didn't really get much from that aside from "Paperblade didn't like Manix's actions and Manix tries to explain them". I would be a bit wary of Manix, but this reminds me a little of how he and Shinori got into that random argument in Xenoblade after Marth was hammered. So far I get the feeling that this is Manix being Manix. Still trying to figure out Paperblade.

Also, I don't completely like Aere's vote on Manix either. I don't know what Aere thinks qualifies as scummy. But that post he linked to when he voted Manix was only three pages into the game and made sense in context (to me, at least). If there were reasons you think Manix is scum past the post you linked, you should probably say so.

Right now, I'm all right with scorri, Kay, and Cam. The former two haven't done anything to make me think they're scummy yet, and I'm taking Cam's miller claim at face value for now. I reread Helios' posts and while he has said stuff he doesn't seem to have done much and seems forgettable.

Strider doesn't exist. Why.

[scorri]

Cause strider never exists.

Also Weapons is acting very similar to how he did in Theatre, which basically means explaining things in a way that makes sense to him but either doesn't make sense to anyone else or people don't understand how he's trying to explain things. Either he'll eventually explain things better, or we'll start voting him until he does. *shrug*

[Prims]

Elieson (3) - Paperblade, Weapons, Shinori

CT075 (2) - Strider, San

Manix (2) - Aere, Bluedoom

Bluedoom (1) - scorri

Paperblade (1) - Helios

Weapons (1) - Elieson

Not Voting - CT075, Manix, Seoyeon

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to hammer. You have about 50 hours left in the day.

Edited August 29, 2012 by Prims

[CT075]

prims i unvoted

[Helios]

Still don't really like Paperblade, but at least he's contributing a little more so I guess I can't complain. Still keeping my eye on him though.

##Unvote

So right now I'm finding Bluedoom and Aere scummy.

Kay's vote on Cam wasn't scummy at all and I find it weird that Helios just jumped on to that immediately. Also find it worse that Helios jumped on paper over active lurking and Paper has already stated reasons which I agree with. Slight scum read on Helios as of now.

The Manix vs Paperblade debacle honestly looks silly tbh. Don't like Manix's reaction to Paperblade calling him out- there was no need to bring your argument over from the theater thread to this one. You basically got suspicious of Paper just because he called you out, and you don't like Aere because he voted you. Sure it'd be nice of Aere to post his opinions on the rest, but I do think he has a point on you. Also if you don't like Weapons' play at this point do you view Elieson as townish? ##Vote: Manix Btw, gut feeling is such a convenient argument, it isn't even funny.

Aere, I understand your vote for Manix, but it'd be better if you'd give out other reads. Would like you to state more than just a Manix vote. Also don't like Boron, Scorri, Helios and whoever else decided to argue with Camtech about his bad idea of useless roles claiming. That discussion can stay in the Info Dump thread or General discussion thread, that discussion doesn't get us anywhere in scumhunting. I'd rather we not have a Xenoblade repeat, man those first couple of cycles were horrible.

Simply put I don't see why Paperblade is looking bad or scummy at the moment. If anything he's only calling out people and trying to scumhunt, nothing wrong with that. Also didn't find any problems with the Cam wagon earlier, it was bound to dissolve anyway, and 3 votes is not enough for a lynch. Like Paper said, if town is really that dumb to get four more votes on that wagon simply due to RVS and other weird reasons, god bless us.

The vote on Kay was intended to be a reaction test, Marth. I got the reaction I wanted to and learned from it and now have a good read on Kay. Also niiiice on overlooking the other reasons why I voted Paperblade, timing of the posts, and context. Smooth.

Speaking of misreading, Manix didn't bring an argument from Theatre, he just quoted it from there to help make his point. I agree that Manix has been really defensive but if you keep in mind that he was in a horrible mood yesterday it becomes more understandable. We're playing against humans, so emotions are going to be a factor in play. Because of that I don't think that it's safe to judge Manix this early and we need to give him a little more time.

I didn't argue about his useless role claiming at all. I said Miller is supposed to claim early, but I don't think that his claim should give him a free pass for the rest of the game. That's all. Btw what do you think of Cam? Is he worth a vig shot?

Overall not liking Bluedoom's misreading and meh arguments, and his Manix vote wasn't too great either. However, he won't be around for another 7 hours or so, so I won't get a response from him a while, so I'm going to vote Aere.

##Vote Aere

Zero scumhunting, and on top of that doesn't even have a post with any substance ("woah Elie what are you doing" doesn't count lol). Not understanding his Manix vote at all and at this rate it's becoming borderline tunneling. Getting some big scumvibes off him.

[Paperblade]

Also if you look at the 4 questions I asked at 4 different players, 2 of them involved you, one of the questions was at you, and the last one doesn't involve you at all. One players opinions on someone may differ and change the way a situation reads. For example I really didn't like the way paperblade chose to not answer my question when Elieson is the biggest wagon at the moment and Weapons is the person who pretty much started that wagon, besides Cam.

I obviously think Elieson is scummy since I am voting him atm. Seriously, go read his iso. He calls people out for being lazy when the only thing he has done all game is complain about RVS and tunnel Weapons, and his only scumread atm is Weapons because...

wrt Weapons, if I thought he was scummy I would have said something without your prodding, don't you think? No, that makes too much sense.

Also Kay is posting but not giving reads on anyone (other than the implied Weapons isn't scummy which doesn't help)

##Unvote, ##Vote: Kay

Share your thoughts with the class

Rein is not posting despite always being on IRC. Dude, don't sign up for games if you're not going to play.

[Shinori]

I know Elieson is scummy, seriously look at my ISO I pointed out reasons why and I'm voting him. Obviously I've read his posts and obviously I thought he was scummy. Telling me to read his posts when I OBVIOUSLY have really still seems like you are skimming.

[Elieson]

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34918&view=findpost&p=2110474

Answers my general question with obvious answer. Nothing really wrong with it, but didn't do anything besides acknowledge it. (which I was the first to point out, and only brought up the Miller thing in 1 post, why does anyone think I'm clinging to it?)

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34918&view=findpost&p=2110490

Repeating what Helios said, which is repeating what she had already said.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34918&view=findpost&p=2110633

Lecturing Cam on principles of the game of Mafia itself. Something that should be in SF Mafia Info Dump or some other main game standards thread. Not really bringing anything, or trying to move forward.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34918&view=findpost&p=2110638

More on the Miller thing, and repeating principles of her previous post. I'm seeing a trend here.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34918&view=findpost&p=2110651

Much better here, where she acknowledges something unusual that WoMC did, but not really showing anything beyond curiosity.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34918&view=findpost&p=2110657

Interpreting mechanics, nothing major of note here.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34918&view=findpost&p=2110835

More "curiosity" towards WoMC, nothing really on Helios, "gut feeling" on Paperblade (something Manix is already doing), and a negative (at least justified) point against me. This is probably the best post you have so far, but it's just beginning to hint at your thoughts of a few other players.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34918&view=findpost&p=211152

The Lazy/wagony that I am refering to is explained above. Apparently, general consensus says I deserve to be voted for, because WoMC is posting in a cryptic language that I disagree with (if I'm interpreting it correctly). I know you have class, and I'm not saying you should do anything as to jeopardize that, but I am saying that so far, you've really shown null reads and null interests on everything, except for sticking your toes in the pool of an Anti-Elieson wagon, shared a "gut feeling" against Paper, and finally developing an opinion on WoMC. At least you acknowledge Aere acting strange. He's probably acting on some sort of gut feeling that he can't really back up properly either, but it's something. Also, scorri, Kay, Helios, Strider and Cam haven't done much of anything (a few clarifications on proper game performance, and a miller claim, are the highlights of the five of them)

This final post is probably your most organized and thought-invoked post, and I'm glad to see it. Frankly, the rest of your posts had shown simple curiosity, at best, and while I'm not calling back what I said, I am letting you know that I'm withdrawing it, since you've provided actual thought on player activity.

[Elieson]

Btw, that above post is all for Seo, and my justification of her activity. Now that she's coming back on board with her most recent post, I'm inclined to think of her as town. Who's next? I'm ISO'ing, so you'll have to see (Limitted PC Access means I'll probably do just a few more, then the rest in a few hours)

[riariadne]

yeah yeah hi

##Unvote (Camdar)

I don't particularly like what Shinori is doing with a lot of his bigger posts (103, 113)- the sort of method to it feels kind of forced and fluffy more than actual content. Maybe that's just me. I don't think Manix is being scummy with his not wanting to reply from earlier though a couple people did. He seemed more frustrated, which is not really worth getting worked up over. Definitely not a fan of Elieson post 139. Looks like an unnecessarily big reaction. Kay also really hasn't said much in any of her posts at all other than discuss semantics about Cam's claim, which is not really helpful and seems like a whole lot of fluff.

##Vote Kay for now. Seems to me like you're trying to seem a lot more helpful than you've actually been.

[Elieson]

Helios

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34918&view=findpost&p=2110346

Interest in Manix's voting on WoMC, and RVSing Kay. Okay, whatever,

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34918&view=findpost&p=2110487

Answering my question on Cam's miller claim. Generic response.

Follows it with a weird interpretation of Paper's activity. Active Lurking, 4 hours into the game? That's a bold statement, I don't really like it. You're trying to draw negative attention to him, but with awkward logic.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34918&view=findpost&p=2110452

More against Paperblade, kinda. Sure, Paper hasn't done much by this point, but he is trying to get us to focus on scumhunting, he wants a policy Vig on Cam, and is defending Kay from a silly offense on her.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34918&view=findpost&p=2110609

Acknowledging that Cam's a miller, and not to believe it just because it's claimed (everyone's doing this, which is good, because it shows that people are at least paying attention to claims and tried, but not good because it's been mentioned already, by him among others).

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34918&view=findpost&p=2110647

Acknowledges another point about RVSing that makes sense, (I guess), then says Miller shouldn't claim early. What would you do if someone was at say L-2, and was scanned, and claimed Miller at that point? You don't have to answer that, it's rhetorical, but I think you get my point.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34918&view=findpost&p=2110649

Two posts later, finally notices that WoMC is in the game. Finally.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34918&view=findpost&p=2110662

Pokes WoMC about his "scumwatch", and compliments WoMC. Strangly, this gives me the impression that you find him to be extremely town. Feel free to clarify if you'd like.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34918&view=findpost&p=2111236

Finally, a meaty post.

Sees that Paper is actually playing the game, so shifts attention to the newly posting Marth and the crappily posting Aere.

I find his vote on Aere justified, his frustration with Marth equally, though it's his first post, so I didn't expect a New York Times Best Seller from his, or anyone's first post really. Though, one point I disagree with is on giving Manix a free pass because he was grumpy. If I told you I was grumpy and in a foul mood, and was arguing with someone else like say, Prims, would you give me a free pass for the day?

Don't forget to prod Marth about his sluggish analysis of the game later on, since you've made a point to remember to do it.

_________

Helios-Hangs on the Miller claim for many posts, and provides a few opinions here and there. Striking me as a slight lean on scum. I need to ISO other players to see where he weighs in with the rest, but I'm not really getting Town-vibes from ya.

[Elieson]

Aere

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34918&view=findpost&p=2110414

Hello to you too.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34918&view=findpost&p=2110804

Finds Manix scummy, and tries to justify it. Not really scummy here.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34918&view=findpost&p=2111051

Finds Manix scummier than before. I interpret his post different than you though, so...

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34918&view=findpost&p=2111107

Misinterprets Opportunistic.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34918&view=findpost&p=2111125

More eyes on Manix.

---

Aere-Tunnelling Manix, who is juggling feelings. I don't find it to be a very good argument, aside from his first post against Manix where he voted him. I think Aere has 0 other thoughts on the game, except for Scum!Manix. Should probably look at the rest of the game and players. Hell, you haven't even acknowledged WoMC, Cam's Miller claim, or anything wagon-related. And your most recent post wasn't that long ago.

I'm thinking either you got a bug up your ass and Manix is the first thing you saw to take it out on, or you and Manix are scumteam, and you're trying to bus the living fudge out of him to give you/him a lategame pass.

[CT075]

please stop listposting

like seriously

[Elieson]

Strider

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34918&view=findpost&p=2111356

Yea, I'd ISO you, but you made 3 posts. One confirming entry, one RVS on Cam, and this.

Not a bad post overall, just, as Paper said, please please please make a few more, before you're force-subbed from the game, if not for anything more than courtesy.

_____

Leaning Town for Rein

[CT075]

Leaning Town for Rein

how

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I do not have Manix on my scumwatch because of any points made in thread so far. I will not elaborate on my reasons yet.

Yeah, Elieson is overreacting. You can tell by the exaggeration:

"...had created a consensus for everyone to look at me as belittling as possible. I'm not being defensive against WoMC..."

If anyone disagrees, feel free to point out where exactly I did this.

"You keep it up, on me that I'm

apparently some sort of criminal mastermind wannabe, incapable of fooling even the most stillborn of infants. That's your whole argument against me, and you are fishing for reasons to park a vote on me."

Again, where did I do this?

As such, Elieson spends a lot of text attacking me, but has pathos in place of even a single legitimate reason.

Unless someone can procure examples where Elieson acted like this as town previously, my vote stays.

[Elieson]

yeah yeah hi

##Unvote (Camdar)

I don't particularly like what Shinori is doing with a lot of his bigger posts (103, 113)- the sort of method to it feels kind of forced and fluffy more than actual content. Maybe that's just me.

I don't think Manix is being scummy with his not wanting to reply from earlier though a couple people did. He seemed more frustrated, which is not really worth getting worked up over.

Definitely not a fan of Elieson post 139. Looks like an unnecessarily big reaction.

Kay also really hasn't said much in any of her posts at all other than discuss semantics about Cam's claim, which is not really helpful and seems like a whole lot of fluff.

##Vote Kay for now. Seems to me like you're trying to seem a lot more helpful than you've actually been.

Bolded all the parts that Rein actually made sense with. Because they made sense, I'm not finding him to be insta scum. I didn't say I found him to be forsuretown, but his point and vote on Kay is at least justified. No one has really brought up Kay's explaination of the rules of How to Play, and aside from that, I don't think she's done much of note either (I haven't ISO'd her).

---

Cam, I'm developing and explaining my town/scum reads. That way, if I get lynched or nightkilled, there's something to go off of other than "Elieson is tunnelling WoMC, and did crap for the rest of the day" What would happen if a Vig shot you, Cam? Would we learn anything if you flipped accordingly to your claim, and have something for D2?

---

I'll be back to break things apart more in a little bit.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I get that you'd want a reaction from a player but really that reaction I've quoted is pretty normal(ok fine instead of RVS a wagon out of nowhere in any situation warrants that reaction) So I honestly dunno what you can get fom other players.

An example would be after I voted Cam, Elieson said he didn't want a lynch from an RVS wagon, and I called him out for trying to be too helpful.

Additionally, the presence of a wagon is not something you can ignore, therefore everyone has to comment legitimately on it, and when people make legitimate comments, the game moves out of RVS.

[Sunwoo]

About Aere ... while I don't like his vote on Manix (I explained why I think it's poorly justified) and wish he'd talk about other people as well, I think he may have also done the same thing in Xenoblade mafia with Jedi so it might just be typical Aere. If that's the case, that alone might not be enough to call him out as being scum.

Elieson, I think you're focusing too much on people focusing on Cam's claim. It was still kind of early in the game and it was thrown out there. I mean, it's true that we're not breaking new grounds by discussing it further, but I don't think that in itself is a scum read.

I also read through Marth's posts again and I don't quite agree with him. I'm not sure why he immediately condemned Manix and just him for arguing with Paperblade. Also, do you have anything else to say about me and scorri other than, "argued with Cam?"

Strider, I'm not sure how Shinori's posts seem "forced," but I haven't been getting a good read on Shinori. I'll have to look though his posts again. You also need to exist more.

Kay and scorri, where'd you two go?

And Weapons ... uh, if Manix is on your scumwatch for reasons that can't be found in the thread ... then you'd better give us your reasons sooner than later. You're making me think that you know something that the rest of us don't, but you could also just be trying to get away from elaborating.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

where is this defensiveness and overreaction you speak of

See some of the quotes in my previous post.

This is probably the muddiest game reads wise I've been in.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

And Weapons ... uh, if Manix is on your scumwatch for reasons that can't be found in the thread ... then you'd better give us your reasons sooner than later. You're making me think that you know something that the rest of us don't, but you could also just be trying to get away from elaborating.

No, this is vaguely threatening and if you're town, why are you rolefishing and why didn't you consider things like scum motivation?

Scumwatch:

Seoyeon

[CT075]

Cam, I'm developing and explaining my town/scum reads. That way, if I get lynched or nightkilled, there's something to go off of other than "Elieson is tunnelling WoMC, and did crap for the rest of the day" What would happen if a Vig shot you, Cam? Would we learn anything if you flipped accordingly to your claim, and have something for D2?

if a vig shot me then it would be a waste of a shot

if i actually flipped i'd look hard at kay and whoever was the third person on my wagon

also i'm still curious as to how you got town!rein off of his one content post

[Sunwoo]

No, this is vaguely threatening and if you're town, why are you rolefishing and why didn't you consider things like scum motivation?

Scumwatch:

Seoyeon

I'm not role fishing. When I type, I usually write out the first thing that I think of. Seriously, I don't even know why you posted that your reads on Manix were for reasons not on this thread. That implies that you're implying something, and I'd think you would want to keep such a thing secret. Otherwise, someone is going to comment on it. Like me.

[Aere]

Aere-Tunnelling Manix, who is juggling feelings. I don't find it to be a very good argument, aside from his first post against Manix where he voted him. I think Aere has 0 other thoughts on the game, except for Scum!Manix. Should probably look at the rest of the game and players. Hell, you haven't even acknowledged WoMC, Cam's Miller claim, or anything wagon-related. And your most recent post wasn't that long ago.

I'm thinking either you got a bug up your ass and Manix is the first thing you saw to take it out on, or you and Manix are scumteam, and you're trying to bus the living fudge out of him to give you/him a lategame pass.

I will admit to a bit of tunneling on Manix, but more because I wasn't paying attention to the rest of the game rather than me aggressively wanting to lynch him. Only non-RVS wagon so far has been on you, and it's really not hard to see where that came from. I guess I'm sorry for not really looking at the other one? Why would I need to acknowledge Cam's claim? Also, I can't really see where you're getting half of your reads (town or scum) from. Like Cam said, how are you thinking Rein is town?

I feel like Elie and Boron are fishing for reasons. Elie's don't make that much sense, especially his textbook OMGUS (which I don't think was RVS) on Weapons earlier. Boron isn't confident, with very passive reads. Everything is "He kinda sorta normally plays like this" or "I'll check it out again later..."

I don't like Helios, either, partly because of his hypocritical Paperblade vote, partly because I feel like his vote on me was opportunistic. Oddly enough, he finds both of the people who voted Manix scummy.

##Unvote because voting Manix is clearly an unpopular idea.