FRLG tier list

[Shadow Mir]

But it is pretty bad because Venusaur's atk is not that high and some of its opponents that it requires Normal coverage for have high-ish physical defenses (Koffing and Ekans especially).

And it doesn't really help matters that Ekans and Arbok can have Imtimidate.

[Espinosa]

Intimidate is the one thing that makes Ekans difficult to hit with physical attacks. Anyway, Venusaur's physical attack is comparable to that of the Nidofamily (who do have stronger moves and eventually get superior coverage moves), but he still isn't the only one having trouble. If you want to take on Ekans/Koffing, you better send out your special attacker (who's not a grass-type), or something with a powerful normal-type STAB.

[Titamon]

I say we just punch Bulbasaur down a tier

[Baldrick]

I say we just punch Bulbasaur down a tier

I agree, Bulbasaur and Charmander should down a tier.

[MacLovin]

If they do that, then the Nidos may as well do so too.

I got some more stuff.

Geodude and Sandshrew switching places.

Geodude requires TMs and move tutors to be good if we catch it in Mt. Moon.

And it's evo isn't that good either, since no trades.

Sandshrew can take dig for stab and Surge and when it evolves it gets Slash.

And then it has a workable TM moveset with BB/AA/FP.

Geodude may have a good movepool, but it's sp def is shit and it's slow as shit-as well as 4x weakness's to Gras AND water.

Sandshrew isn't raped horribly lategame.

SO, have them switch places?

Also, Slowpoke could rise, high lvl when caight, good movepool, and is bulky.

Kinda like a Snorlax of the Kanto Seas.

Flareon could rise too, SB/FT/Bite/Dig and fire stone being uncontested.

And I think some of the no-evo mons could rise.

Pinser/Scyther/Kanga/Tauros/Hitmonlee/Hitmonchan are all solid mons with solid stats and workable movepools(Except for Pinser/Tauros)

Pinser and Tauros's only problem is the mediocre movepool they can get. But the stats are good.

Also, Paras could drop-shitty stats, typing, and bleh movepool isn't good here.

Edited July 29, 2012 by The Gentleman

[dondon151]

I agree, Bulbasaur and Charmander should down a tier.

I completely disagree; the Pokemon underneath them currently are definitely not better than they are. (I also don't know what Silver Harpoon did with Charmander because now the order is all weird and shit.)

Geodude and Sandshrew switching places.

Actually a good idea! Sandshrew is a solid Pokemon but it does need support from TMs.

But before you do anything else, please address why Psyduck, Tentacool, and Shellder are all near the bottom of the tier list.

[MacLovin]

I have no idea....

They could move up a bit, but to where?

Move them all to mid?

[dondon151]

They could move up a bit, but to where?

Move them all to mid?

They probably deserve to be around there; they're probably at around the same level. What strikes me as odd is why Horsea and Goldeen are there as well.

[MacLovin]

Ok, raised them.

Also, about the others I mentioned.

[Titamon]

I completely disagree; the Pokemon underneath them currently are definitely not better than they are.

I don't know, you could make a case for Mankey being better than Bulbasaur

Rock Tomb after Brock allows to wreck bug-types, fire-types, ice-types and fliers

Mega Punch or Mega Kick after we leave Mt Moon

Brick Brick in the S.S Anne

Aerial Ace before Rock Tunnel lets it check Grass-types and fellow fighting-types

Earthquake late game

And if you've got money to burn... Thunderbolt

[MacLovin]

Mankey might have a case, but lolTB off a mediocre sp attack.

But yeah, I guess the grass type gets the shaft down, unless someone argues it.

[dondon151]

Yeah, Mankey is actually pretty good. Isn't there a Rock Slide tutor in Rock Tunnel too?

There's almost no reason to teach him Thunderbolt, though. It only does better against Gyarados, and there are much better Pokemon to use against Gyarados.

[Baldrick]

I'll try to make a coherent argument.

Firstly, Brock and Misty. Don't make that face; it's probably Bulbasaur's strongest point, so I pretty much have to use it. Nothing Charmander can do will make up for it.

vs. Rival III: Bulbasaur sucks here, but its presence means you can kill two birds (well, a bird and a lizard) with one stone. Squirtle is tough here; only Pikachu can get a SE hit, and nothing resists water + dark.

vs. Rival IV: That Kadabra hurts, but a fresh Diglett fares pretty well against him.

vs. Surge: Diglett/King gg.

Tower: Sure, Ember works well, but it's no more effective than any of Water Pulse/Shock Wave/Aerial Ace/Rock Slide/Confusion even without STAB, so it's hardly uncommon utility. And the only one likely to challenge you is a Marowak.

Game Corner: Bulbasaur isn't weak to Poison, and has Secret Power to match the raw damage of Char.

vs. Eirika: Your Flyslave will handle this well enough, if you have FT you're well overlevelled. Not to mention there are two pokes not weak to Psychic there.

Silph Co.: There's a little better chance of having Flamethrower, but this is the stage where you'd want to be getting levels into your Psychic type. There's the rival battle to consider, though.

vs. Koga: Psychic gg.

vs. Sabrina: It's hard to get an advantage no matter the team, but she doesn't need to be beaten until before Victory Road. Legendary bird gg.

vs. Blaine: Bulbasaur isn't getting a look in here. But Charmander can't bring enough damage to consider this a decisive win.

vs. Giovanni: Bulbasaur has the advantage here.

vs. Rival: Another win for Charmander, but it's still only got Exeggcute for SE damage.

vs. E4: Neither one is doing much here. Leave it to the thunder/ice/psychic types.

And keep in mind, when you get into difficulty (and you will, if you're doing anything resembling efficiency), Bulbasaur has Leech Seed/Sleep Powder to tip the scales. This game is not only easy enough to never need double damage until E4, but it's pretty simple to build a team that will always have it. Early game is where the least variety lies, so it's the most important time, apart from the E4, to find the advantage.

tl;dr Charmander will never make up the ground conceded by its horrid start. Bulb > Char.

[Titamon]

Yeah, Mankey is actually pretty good. Isn't there a Rock Slide tutor in Rock Tunnel too?

There's almost no reason to teach him Thunderbolt, though. It only does better against Gyarados, and there are much better Pokemon to use against Gyarados.

Yes sir! I believe it is!

I'll try to make a coherent argument.

Firstly, Brock and Misty. Don't make that face; it's probably Bulbasaur's strongest point, so I pretty much have to use it.

It's Bulbasaur's only point, ...well that and Rock Tunnel at least

Nothing Charmander can do will make up for it.

It makes up for it by having actual coverage and not being a big pile of fail against every early-game trainer

Tower: Sure, Ember works well, but it's no more effective than any of Water Pulse/Shock Wave/Aerial Ace/Rock Slide/Confusion even without STAB, so it's hardly uncommon utility. And the only one likely to challenge you is a Marowak.

Charmeleon isn't mass resisted by everything in there, so he wins by default

Game Corner: Bulbasaur isn't weak to Poison, and has Secret Power to match the raw damage of Char.

Rock Slide/Brick Break/Aerial Ace gg

vs. Eirika: Your Flyslave will handle this well enough, if you have FT you're well overlevelled. Not to mention there are two pokes not weak to Psychic there.

Charmelon with Aerial Ace is just as good

Silph Co.: There's a little better chance of having Flamethrower, but this is the stage where you'd want to be getting levels into your Psychic type. There's the rival battle to consider, though.

I think a chance of having Flamethrower is better than watching Venusaur wade through Golbats, Arboks and Weezings.

vs. Blaine: Bulbasaur isn't getting a look in here. But Charmander can't bring enough damage to consider this a decisive win.

A. Charizard can learn Rock Slide

B. Even if he couldn't learn it he'd still be better because he doesn't get destroyed by goddamn fire blast

vs. Giovanni: Bulbasaur has the advantage here.

But Zard is immune to Ground attacks and has Brick Break for Rocks

vs. E4: Neither one is doing much here. Leave it to the thunder/ice/psychic types.

Flamethrower on Jnyx and Cloyster, Brick Break on everything Else

Aerial Ace on Bruno's Fighter's, Brick Break on Onix

Isn't stuck with Grass/Normal attacks vs Agatha's ghosts and poison types

Dragon Claw and Rock Slide on Lance's Dragon's and Fliers

I'd say there is a notable gap in performance here

And keep in mind, when you get into difficulty (and you will, if you're doing anything resembling efficiency), Bulbasaur has Leech Seed/Sleep Powder to tip the scales.

He needs it even when the scales are in his favor simply because he runs out of pp so easily.

Early game is where the least variety lies, so it's the most important time, apart from the E4, to find the advantage.

Finally something I agree with! Your right variety is limited early-game, how many fire-types can you get pre celadon? Zero

How many grass types can you get pre celadon? TWO

Bulbasuar is not special at all

[Shadow Mir]

But Zard is immune to Ground attacks and has Brick Break for Rocks

I dunno about you, but the threat of getting hit for x4 damage in return after a x2 hit that probably won't even KO in all likelihood would lead me to consider it a Charizard loss. Getting hit for quad damage is never pleasant.

Dammit typos.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Golden Cucco

[Titamon]

I dunno about you, but the thread of getting hit for x4 damage in return after a x2 hit that probably won't even KO in all likelihood would lead me to consider it a Charizard loss. Getting hit for quad damage is never pleasant.

Rock Blast?

[Shadow Mir]

Rock Blast?

I was expecting Giovanni to have Rock Slide on some of his Pokemon... Nevermind then.

[Baldrick]

It's Bulbasaur's only point, ...well that and Rock Tunnel at least

Leech Seed/Sleep Powder. Rock Tunnel isn't an advantage because there aren't any unskippable trainers tough enough to matter.

It makes up for it by having actual coverage and not being a big pile of fail against every early-game trainer

Grass/Normal isn't coverage now? I'll tell you what I told Dondon; nobody cares about the small fries. They die just as easily, if not as quickly, to Tackle.

Charmeleon isn't mass resisted by everything in there, so he wins by default

There's exactly one difficult battle there, and it definitely does not resist grass.

Rock Slide/Brick Break/Aerial Ace gg

75 vs 70? A close match. True, you've got more SE coverage, but it's got STAB on none of them, so in the end, you're just wasting valuable TMs.

Charmelon with Aerial Ace is just as good

It can't learn Fly until promotion, and AA doesn't outdamage Ember. What's the point?

I think a chance of having Flamethrower is better than watching Venusaur wade through Golbats, Arboks and Weezings.

Use Psychic on the ones that are too strong. You will have a psychic type in any kind of efficient play, because it stomps two members of the E4. This is strategy a child could think of, and I know because I thought of it when I was a child.

A. Charizard can learn Rock Slide

B. Even if he couldn't learn it he'd still be better because he doesn't get destroyed by goddamn fire blast

What exactly did you think I meant by "not get a look in"? Why do you insist on putting Bulbasaur in losing battles? I only consider Charmander's performance vs. Brock and Misty because your starter is supposed to carry your team early, not be practically fucking useless.

But Zard is immune to Ground attacks and has Brick Break for Rocks

I agree with that. But, STAB Grass vs Fighting for rocks is as much of a mismatch as STAB Fire vs Normal for bugs, in fact worse because rocks have high def, low sp. def, so Charizard is, in your words, "a big pile of fail". Only this time, we give a shit about performance because it's a gym leader, not a source of exp.

Flamethrower on Jnyx and Cloyster, Brick Break on everything Else

a) Brick Break on Slowbro? A cunning strategy. No, no, not cunning... what's the opposite of that?

b) Venusaur can use Razor Leaf/Frenzy Plant on everything except Jynx, Leech Seed/Sleep Powder on everything else, if we're ignoring type disadvantages.

Aerial Ace on Bruno's Fighter's, Brick Break on Onix

We've already covered why Brick Break is "a big pile of fail". Rock Tomb says hi as well.

Isn't stuck with Grass/Normal attacks vs Agatha's ghosts and poison types

With Leech Seed/Sleep Powder, you can't be completely useless. You do know you can have five other slots, and fill them with pokes that do better than either starter?

Dragon Claw and Rock Slide on Lance's Dragon's and Fliers

It's a good backup plan, but there's no reason not to bring STAB Ice/Eletric attacks instead.

Also your moveset is

Flamethrower

Brick Break

Aerial Ace

Dragon Claw

Rock Slide

?

I'd say there is a notable gap in performance here

Charizard is bringing 3x damage to four enemies, two of which will wipe him out. Vensaur is bringing 3x damage to six enemies, three of which will wipe him out. So unless it's a solo, where having an even matchup against as many enemies as possible is vital, I wouldn't note any gap.

He needs it even when the scales are in his favor simply because he runs out of pp so easily.

If PP is an issue, rather than death, then you're either overlevelled or relying too much on Potions.

Finally something I agree with! Your right variety is limited early-game, how many fire-types can you get pre celadon? Zero

How many fire types do you need pre celadon? Zero.

How many grass types can you get pre celadon? TWO

Grass types suck, though. Why would you want one? If it wasn't for Leech Seed/Brock and Misty, I wouldn't consider Bulbasaur any different.

Bulbasuar is not special at all

I agree with you. His purpose is to be a Jeigan; carry your team until you get something better. I'm only considering his performance later on to prove Charmander isn't doing enough lategame to justify your crippled earlygame.

[dondon151]

Grass/Normal isn't coverage now? I'll tell you what I told Dondon; nobody cares about the small fries. They die just as easily, if not as quickly, to Tackle.

But they don't. Do the goddamn math.

75 vs 70? A close match. True, you've got more SE coverage, but it's got STAB on none of them, so in the end, you're just wasting valuable TMs.

Ember also outdamages Secret Power anyway, so...

So you're basically saying that Brock and Misty comprise the whole game and the rest doesn't matter? What about the rest of the tier list? Most of your argument falls apart almost instantly. You're ignoring a good majority of forced trainer battles, handwaving nearly all of Bulbasaur's shortcomings, and pinning the quality of performance on 2 battles in the entire game.

Part of your argument also hinges on Charmeleon not having Flamethrower when he needs it. This is stupid. I had a team of 4 Pokemon averaged L40 against the Giovanni battle in Silph. You will have Flamethrower definitely before Koga; maybe even before Erika (because remember, you don't have to fight Erika the moment that you set foot in Celadon City).

Your argument is full of hypocrisies:

Use Psychic on the ones that are too strong. You will have a psychic type in any kind of efficient play, because it stomps two members of the E4. This is strategy a child could think of, and I know because I thought of it when I was a child.

So... does that mean that if I use Mankey on Brock and Bellsprout on Misty, Charmander's problems are magically gone? Sweet!

Oh, wait. That's no good in your books. You can have whomever you want to cover up Bulbasaur's problems, but when it comes to Charmander, nope.

What exactly did you think I meant by "not get a look in"? Why do you insist on putting Bulbasaur in losing battles?

I don't know, why do you hold Charmander to a different standard than Bulbasaur?

You keep putting Charmander against Brock and Misty; why can't I put Bulbasaur in against the myriad losing battles that he has in the game (and by losing, I mean gumming the opponent to death)? If I took the same amount of time to grind Charmander earlygame that I'd save by not having Bulbasaur gum Bug Catchers to death and going back and forth to the Pokemon Center because he can't use Vine Whip anymore, then I'd bet that Charmander could fucking kick Brock and Misty's teeth in.

I only consider Charmander's performance vs. Brock and Misty because your starter is supposed to carry your team early, not be practically fucking useless.

Your starter is not supposed to do anything. There is no clause in the game that mandates your starter "carry" your team.

Wait, wait, wait. Hold on. I just discovered some new information. Mankey is supposed to rape Brock or Bellsprout is supposed to tear Misty a new one.

With Leech Seed/Sleep Powder, you can't be completely useless. You do know you can have five other slots, and fill them with pokes that do better than either starter?

Once more with the "5 other Pokemon" card.

If PP is an issue, rather than death, then you're either overlevelled or relying too much on Potions.

Or, you're playing this game in a way that purposely makes it hard on yourself. But weren't you making an argument against this style of play before?

Hypocrisy at its finest. Do continue.

Edited August 2, 2012 by dondon151

[Baldrick]

But they don't. Do the goddamn math.

I did. The answer was 5 minutes. Do you have to revise?

Ember also outdamages Secret Power anyway, so...

70 > 60

So you're basically saying that Brock and Misty comprise the whole game and the rest doesn't matter? What about the rest of the tier list? Most of your argument falls apart almost instantly. You're ignoring a good majority of forced trainer battles, handwaving nearly all of Bulbasaur's shortcomings, and pinning the quality of performance on 2 battles in the entire game.

Lest you forget, I want Bulb and Char in mid tier. I am of the opinion that gym leaders are 1000x more important than trainer battles, because they have smarter AI and a chance of outlevelling you, so you can't use brute force. Furthermore, the Elite Four is 100x more important than gym leaders, since you have to fight five battles without free healing inbetween, and they WILL outlevel you unless you spend hours in Victory Road.

The tier list, I feel, should take into account what is good vs. the E4 as 90%, if not more, of the criteria, since every other non-rival battle is trivial compared to them. Bulbasaur can do neutral damage to anything except ghosts, put it to sleep if it gets in trouble, and you, the trainer, have the ability to not use it against mons that have SE attacks against it. That is all you need to make trainer battles merely a source of EXP.

Those 2 battles are the first two gym leaders. The mons you catch will not be very good early on; they are too low-levelled, and you have too few resources, to give them a good moveset yet. But there's one mon that starts out stronger than anything else you'll see for a while, and has a good moveset from the start. It is your Jeigan, it takes the lion's share of responsibility until your team catches up, and has a variety of strong moves. So what are we to make of a Jeigan that cannot defeat the first two bosses?

Part of your argument also hinges on Charmeleon not having Flamethrower when he needs it. This is stupid. I had a team of 4 Pokemon averaged L40 against the Giovanni battle in Silph. You will have Flamethrower definitely before Koga; maybe even before Erika (because remember, you don't have to fight Erika the moment that you set foot in Celadon City).

A level 40 Venusaur will be able to beat Giovanni through brute force. A level 34 Venusaur will be able to beat Eirika through brute force. Nino AA'd to 20/20 will be able to hold her own through sheer stats. When you have units far stronger than they have to be, tier lists lose all meaning.

So... does that mean that if I use Mankey on Brock and Bellsprout on Misty, Charmander's problems are magically gone? Sweet!

Oh, wait. That's no good in your books. You can have whomever you want to cover up Bulbasaur's problems, but when it comes to Charmander, nope.

I don't know, why do you hold Charmander to a different standard than Bulbasaur?

I hold them to the same standard. I expect them to beat everything without risk of dying until Vermillion because they are my starter, and my starter is supposed to be the rock of my team until I get the rest of the mons I'm using against the Elite Four, and I expect them to beat everything they have a type advantage against.

You keep putting Charmander against Brock and Misty; why can't I put Bulbasaur in against the myriad losing battles that he has in the game (and by losing, I mean gumming the opponent to death)? If I took the same amount of time to grind Charmander earlygame that I'd save by not having Bulbasaur gum Bug Catchers to death and going back and forth to the Pokemon Center because he can't use Vine Whip anymore, then I'd bet that Charmander could fucking kick Brock and Misty's teeth in.

You need 100 experience to get from level 5 to level 7. You get about 70 for beating the rival, and can easily get 30 from trudging around doing errands. Heal at Viridian, enter forest at level 7. You need 330 experience to get from 7 to 10. If you fight the three trainers with worms only, you have to average a 6HKO, allowing for a miss on each one, taking into account Leech Seed. You will get about 300 experience for it. You will probably see two wild pokemon, kill them, 30 experience, you're ready for Brock. You do not need to train any more than that, because bugs give 20 experience per kill and jesus fuck it is so boring! Why would you want to prolong that?

The strategy you described, is in fact, the strategy you need to do to make Mankey competent enough to kill Brock, or make Charmander so overlevelled that he can ignore the massive disadvantage.

Your starter is not supposed to do anything. There is no clause in the game that mandates your starter "carry" your team.

Why does it exist, then? Why don't I do what Wally does?

Wait, wait, wait. Hold on. I just discovered some new information. Mankey is supposed to rape Brock or Bellsprout is supposed to tear Misty a new one.

Once more with the "5 other Pokemon" card.

See above. Mankey needs plenty of levels, and trips through Viridian Forest and back to the Centre, to "rape" Brock. Bellsprout is pretty good against Misty, but it doesn't have Leech Seed, has Wrap as a non-Grass move, and can do nothing against Brock. It also has to be trained to a higher level, since it doesn't have a stat boost from evolving until level 21.

Unless you plan to take Mankey/Bellsprout to the E4, you're wasting time training them, that could go to training a more worthy mon. I'm working under the assumption that the psychic type will go to the E4, so delegating the killing of poison types to it is not a waste of experience, since it needs experience to handle the E4.

Or, you're playing this game in a way that purposely makes it hard on yourself. But weren't you making an argument against this style of play before?

Hypocrisy at its finest. Do continue.

Can you understand the difference between

discussing FE6 LTC, and saying that a certain strategy that relies on arena abuse is no good;

and a playthrough where you try to make Ward kill every sword-wielding unit in FE6, and so conclude that Bors is better than Ward?

If so, we're halfway there. One is restricting a resource (turns/levels) as a challenge, and rejecting anything that uses more of that resource than necessary. The other is deliberately using a poor strategy, and reaching a faulty conclusion because we used some unit in an inefficient way.

[Titamon]

Leech Seed/Sleep Powder. Rock Tunnel isn't an advantage because there aren't any unskippable trainers tough enough to matter.

Rock Tunnel has a plethora of Trainer's with Grass-weak Pokemon. The fact that you didn't even try to argue this in Bulbasaur's favor is just...

Grass/Normal isn't coverage now?

It's awful, when your best coverage is Strength and Giga Drain you know you have some serious problems

I'll tell you what I told Dondon; nobody cares about the small fries. They die just as easily, if not as quickly, to Tackle.

3HKOing at lvl 10 is not dying quickly

It can't learn Fly until promotion, and AA doesn't outdamage Ember. What's the point?

Aerial Ace and Ember have the same base power when used by Charmeleon

Also, 2 Aerial Aces > 1 Fly

Use Psychic on the ones that are too strong. You will have a psychic type in any kind of efficient play, because it stomps two members of the E4. This is strategy a child could think of, and I know because I thought of it when I was a child.

That's not the point Sherlock, it was to show you the numerous bad type match-ups that Bulbasaur frequently runs into.

What exactly did you think I meant by "not get a look in"? Why do you insist on putting Bulbasaur in losing battles? I only consider Charmander's performance vs. Brock and Misty because your starter is supposed to carry your team early, not be practically fucking useless.

You are seriously being a hypocrite here, putting Charmander's early-game under the microscope, yet hand-waving Bulbasaur's terrible late-game gym performances.

I agree with that. But, STAB Grass vs Fighting for rocks is as much of a mismatch as STAB Fire vs Normal for bugs, in fact worse because rocks have high def, low sp. def, so Charizard is, in your words, "a big pile of fail". Only this time, we give a shit about performance because it's a gym leader, not a source of exp.

Here's a suggestion: Use Flamethrower

a) Brick Break on Slowbro? A cunning strategy. No, no, not cunning... what's the opposite of that?

b) Venusaur can use Razor Leaf/Frenzy Plant on everything except Jynx, Leech Seed/Sleep Powder on everything else, if we're ignoring type disadvantages.

Oh boo hoo he misses Slowbro.

Also both Venusaur and Charizard have to watch out for Ice Beam/Surf respectively, so don't even bother bringing up type disadvantages.

With Leech Seed/Sleep Powder, you can't be completely useless. You do know you can have five other slots, and fill them with pokes that do better than either starter?

Point? The fact that there's better Pokemon for the Elite 4 does not change the fact that Venusaur is way worse than Charizard for the E4

It's a good backup plan, but there's no reason not to bring STAB Ice/Electric attacks

And yet Charmander is still more effective than Bulbasaur here

Also your moveset is

Flamethrower

Brick Break

Aerial Ace

Dragon Claw

Rock Slide

You know you can use TMs between E4 matches right?

Charizard is bringing 3x damage to four enemies, two of which will wipe him out. Vensaur is bringing 3x damage to six enemies, three of which will wipe him out. So unless it's a solo, where having an even matchup against as many enemies as possible is vital, I wouldn't note any gap.

What the hell is this

I agree with you. His purpose is to be a Jeigan; carry your team until you get something better. I'm only considering his performance later on to prove Charmander isn't doing enough lategame to justify your crippled earlygame.

A Jeigan that flops against common scrubs

[Baldrick]

Rock Tunnel has a plethora of Trainer's with Grass-weak Pokemon. The fact that you didn't even try to argue this in Bulbasaur's favor is just...

Remember the part where I said the small fries aren't important? I don't see how you could have missed it, I say it quite a lot.

I do not disregard my criteria when it is convenient for me. The real would be if I argued Bulbasaur's contribution in Rock Tunnel was valuable while talking down Charmander in the forest. That would be hypocritical.

It's awful, when your best coverage is Strength and Giga Drain you know you have some serious problems

Bulbasaur's offense is not good. Fair enough. Its niche is in status conditions, and being a crutch earlygame.

3HKOing at lvl 10 is not dying quickly

I never said they died quickly.

Aerial Ace and Ember have the same base power when used by Charmeleon

Also, 2 Aerial Aces > 1 Fly

So how is AA an upgrade?

You take two attacks with AA + AA. It's quicker in terms of time, but that's a poor metric to judge on.

That's not the point Sherlock, it was to show you the numerous bad type match-ups that Bulbasaur frequently runs into.

Doesn't take SE damage, can inflict non-NVE damage. How is this a bad match-up?

You are seriously being a hypocrite here, putting Charmander's early-game under the microscope, yet hand-waving Bulbasaur's terrible late-game gym performances.

I want you to read this very carefully.

The starters are crutch Pokemon. Early game, when your options are few, their contribution is more important. Late game, when your options are many, their contribution is less important.

Here's a suggestion: Use Flamethrower

Flamethrower versus Rock-types*. A cunning strategy. No, no, not cunning... what's the opposite of that?

*You are replying to my counter to the assertion that Brick Break vs rocks is a good idea.

Oh boo hoo he misses Slowbro.

Your crocodile tears do nothing to change the fact that you're wrong about Brick Break being good against the rest. Because you had not mentioned Slowbro, I had to assume you thought BB was good against Slowbro. I was merely pointing out your mistake.

Also both Venusaur and Charizard have to watch out for Ice Beam/Surf respectively, so don't even bother bringing up type disadvantages.

So you concede that Charizard cannot, in fact, handle Lorelei? That was my original contention.

Point? The fact that there's better Pokemon for the Elite 4 does not change the fact that Venusaur is way worse than Charizard for the E4

No it doesn't, that's true. What is does mean is that Charizard's E4 contribution can not be considered a clear win. Char alone >>> Bulb alone, but Char + 5 others = Bulb + 5 others.

And yet Charmander is still more effective than Bulbasaur here

Irrelevant. Nobody cares whether Marcus or Zealot is more useful vs. Murdock.

You know you can use TMs between E4 matches right?

Fair enough.

What the hell is this

Today, children, basic mathematics!

If STAB multiplies your power by 1.5, and super effective damage multiplies your power by two, what does having both multiply your power by? Now, decimals can be tricky, so I don't expect you to get it right away. Let me give you an example. If you have one and a half apples, and Johnny has one and a half apples, how many apples do you have together? There's one whole one you have, one whole one Johnny has, and if you put the two halves together, you get... three! Yes, that's exactly right! Now remember, children, three is a bigger number than two. And during the Elite Four, where getting a little extra damage can be so decisive, you'll want the bigger multiplier for every battle you can!

A Jeigan that flops against common scrubs

Bulbasaur does neutral damage to bugs, takes neutral damage. I can't understand how this is a flop. But he's at no risk of dying to anything, unlike Charmander.

[dondon151]

I did. The answer was 5 minutes. Do you have to revise?

This is exactly what you said:

Grass/Normal isn't coverage now? I'll tell you what I told Dondon; nobody cares about the small fries. They die just as easily, if not as quickly, to Tackle.

What part of "just as quickly" means "not just as quickly?"

70 > 60

Did you ignore that Charmeleon's SpAtk is much higher than Ivysaur's Atk?

Lest you forget, I want Bulb and Char in mid tier. I am of the opinion that gym leaders are 1000x more important than trainer battles, because they have smarter AI and a chance of outlevelling you, so you can't use brute force. Furthermore, the Elite Four is 100x more important than gym leaders, since you have to fight five battles without free healing inbetween, and they WILL outlevel you unless you spend hours in Victory Road.

blah blah arbitrary numbers, I am of the opinion that gym leaders are 2x more important than trainer battles and the E4 is 2x more important than gym leaders, therefore I'm right, you're wrong, blah blah

(No but really, my arbitrary numbers are a lot more accurate than yours.)

The tier list, I feel, should take into account what is good vs. the E4 as 90%, if not more, of the criteria, since every other non-rival battle is trivial compared to them. Bulbasaur can do neutral damage to anything except ghosts, put it to sleep if it gets in trouble, and you, the trainer, have the ability to not use it against mons that have SE attacks against it. That is all you need to make trainer battles merely a source of EXP.

Doing shitty neutral damage and running away after putting something to sleep is never a preferable option to smashing an opponent's face in.

Those 2 battles are the first two gym leaders. The mons you catch will not be very good early on; they are too low-levelled, and you have too few resources, to give them a good moveset yet.

You don't need a good moveset to defeat Brock and Misty. Mankey just needs Low Kick (which he learns at L6; no grinding necessary for Brock) and Oddish / Bellsprout / Paras just need Absorb / Vine Whip / Bullet Seed / powders / existing to trivialize Misty. In fact, most Pokemon don't have good movesets and don't ever get good movesets.

But there's one mon that starts out stronger than anything else you'll see for a while, and has a good moveset from the start. It is your Jeigan, it takes the lion's share of responsibility until your team catches up, and has a variety of strong moves. So what are we to make of a Jeigan that cannot defeat the first two bosses?

Your starter does not have any such responsibility. He does not have a good moveset from the start. You have fucking Tackle / Scratch / Tail Whip / Growl! Mankey learns his first STAB at L6. Pikachu starts out with his first STAB. Pidgey, Spearow, Rattata all start out with STABs. Yes, he is your first fire / water / grass type. That's it. What's more, you can catch all of these wild Pokemon at L5 at a time when your starter is only L6.

A level 40 Venusaur will be able to beat Giovanni through brute force. A level 34 Venusaur will be able to beat Eirika through brute force. Nino AA'd to 20/20 will be able to hold her own through sheer stats. When you have units far stronger than they have to be, tier lists lose all meaning.

No, not quite, because Charizard does most of those battles faster than does Venusaur.

The strategy you described, is in fact, the strategy you need to do to make Mankey competent enough to kill Brock, or make Charmander so overlevelled that he can ignore the massive disadvantage.

Whatever hypothetical training strategy that you provided is more than enough for Mankey to destroy Brock.

Why does it exist, then? Why don't I do what Wally does?

It exists because you need a Pokemon in order to start the game. Other than that, why does any other Pokemon exist?

See above. Mankey needs plenty of levels, and trips through Viridian Forest and back to the Centre, to "rape" Brock.

Nope, wrong. Mankey actually needs fewer or equal levels to beat Brock than does Bulbasaur.

Bellsprout is pretty good against Misty, but it doesn't have Leech Seed, has Wrap as a non-Grass move, and can do nothing against Brock. It also has to be trained to a higher level, since it doesn't have a stat boost from evolving until level 21.

Growth vs. Staryu -> sweep.

Unless you plan to take Mankey/Bellsprout to the E4, you're wasting time training them, that could go to training a more worthy mon.

Sunk cost fallacy.

Can you understand the difference between

discussing FE6 LTC, and saying that a certain strategy that relies on arena abuse is no good;

and a playthrough where you try to make Ward kill every sword-wielding unit in FE6, and so conclude that Bors is better than Ward?

Uh, yeah. That's exactly what you're doing, so I understand full well.

Edited August 2, 2012 by dondon151

[BBM]

I notice that there's no mention in the OP of how resources allocation is decided. If pokemon are considered in a vacuum and Charizard can have whatever he wants, it's all good, but otherwise, using 3 one-use TMs and a one-use Move Tutor just so that Charizard can have a passable performance against the E4 is questionable.

Edited August 2, 2012 by VP Viper

[Espinosa]

Charizard doesn't require many unique TMs at all. Flamethrower is learnt early enough (probably before Erika), AA isn't needed because you get Wing Attack with far more PP and the same power, Brick Break can be bought really cheap, and Dragon Claw has absolutely no contest for it going on whatsoever since the other Pokemon who learn it are, let me think, Gyarados and Aerodactyl, and Gyarados doesn't want it. Rock Slide isn't terribly necessary and it's possible that one of your Pokemon will make better use of it. Charizard without Rock Slide is still a good Charizard.

Also Charizard > Venusaur for Lorelei. Let's say they both have Sunny Day for setup to solo her. Venusaur is still taking SE ice-type damage (and it will be taking it due to not outspeeding things Zard can outspeed) while Charizard takes neutral ice damage and reduced water-type damage, while his own STABs are powered up. Charizard is just superior to Venusaur against every E4 member.