My Little Pony: Friendship is Mafia (Game Over)

[Kay]

If Blitz thought votes on Refa were bad he could have pointed it out insted of defending him, which is what I'd expect town to do.

And it's not just this sentence, I feel that he's posting a lot but not being helpful overall.

That basically is what he did.

Blitzy thinks votes on Refa are bad because they all follow what is in his opinion flawed logic: that it was scummy for Refa to sheep BBM and vote his townread, even though there wasn't much else for him to do besides vote for someone with no posts.

Therefore, Blitzy explains that even though voting a townread is objectively scummy, in this case it's not that bad.

How is it scummier this way than if he said "hey you guys, your Refa votes are dumb because of this"?

I think BBM's play at least encourages discussion unlike a lot of other people, which reminds me, I would like my other town read to exist more (I meant Prims)

Anything can encourage discussion, in and of itself that is not particularly townish.

I don't really get Proto's point against him tbh, its just that Blitz is playing a bit different to how he usually does, which happens over time. Plus, if you think he's playing better than normal (in not getting lynched as much, or being less likely to get lynched I guess) why is that a bad thing?

FWIW, he explained this. Blitzy could be placing a higher value on not being provocative since there are probably only two mafia, so him recklessly getting lynched would hurt more than if he was in a scumteam of four or five. I'm not sure I agree, it could also be Blitzy approaching the game differently because he hasn't played in a while or simply decided being lynched wasn't that fun or something, but there is reasoning for it.

Just because she didn't add anything new to the discussion she is putting pressure on someone with her vote and that accomplishes stuff.

It's ok to not be sure that the person is scum from one or two scummy plays but to not chase up someone who's scummy because they might not be scum isn't going to accomplish anything.

So you're going to keep voting Mitsuki even though she gave you her thoughts? What happened to not liking Kay and wanting to find something out from her, you haven't talked about that and expanded if you liked what you saw or whatever.

Doing nothing but voting isn't scummy compared to doing nothing, true, but doing nothing is pretty bad.

Refa had plenty of pressure on him at the time, I think.

I do want to know what happened to Blitzy's vague idea that something about me was scummy, but voting Mitsuki anyway is not necessarily bad. Posting content is not an automatic get-out-of-jail-free card, your content still has to sound townish.

In short, Kevin's Blitzy case seems kinda bad so far.

I missed this but it's really bad. If he's scummy then what does town have to gain from you not voting him? Seems self-conscious, eg "if I vote Refa people might react badly because I'm wagon hopping / putting him super close to a lynch!". I don't buy the explanation for it either since voting kirsche instead still serves no purpose except to obfuscate votals. Given how much Kay has been focusing on Refa this whole voting inconsistency is very disproportionate.

Votes can be useful by:

1. Lynching people

2. Pressuring people

3. Communicating scumreads

I had plenty of time to switch my vote to Refa later in the day if I continued to want him lynched, he was under significant pressure already, and I made it pretty clear who I suspected. Voting Kevin adds at least some pressure for him to post.

i have read the thread and the scumteam is: Refa/Mitsuki

##Unvote

##Vote: Mitsuki

Refa is actually OK I guess.

His content since the weird stance about me hasn't bugged me too much. The "Refa / Mitsuki scumteam" post was just gut. I wouldn't say he looks town though.

"Actually OK" sounds pretty positive, "wouldn't say he looks town" sounds pretty negative, you really need to elaborate on your Refa read and stop waffling.

btw getting on Mitsuki's case for ignoring your badpost is kinda weird. I mean, it looks like deliberately incompetent play as a reaction test, which IIRC you disliked?

Proto needs to exist.

##Vote: Prims

[Blitz]

let's start things up (reporting iso problem, Kay's iso leads to her jewelery store)

first of all, Kay said she found Proto suspicious,

BBM and Proto are scummy imo (in a scummy kind of way, not Blitzy's BBM's-town-meta-is-scumminess or whatever way), but I highly doubt a D1 mason lynch is gonna happen, may as well poke someone else. Blitzy is null, Refa is scummy as well but he's got plenty of votes for this early in the phase, although I might switch to him depending on how awful his explanation of his waffling is.

I guess it is expected with Proto's only post being

Sorry, my bad. I meant to post it immediately, but I realized I shouldn't touch it until the game starts. I just got back now.

##Vote: Refa

Why are you voting Prims on the same post where you claimed his actions were townish?

which is literally followed by Mitsuki's

##Vote: Refa, sheeping. Not super convinced of it but it's the scummiest thing I see so far.

this is exactly the same as what Proto did, but worse, right?

but when I asked Kay her thoughts on Mitsuki, she says

Seemed reasonable not to rehash things people had already said, and voting him seems justified.

and as you see in the first quote of her, she doesn't think Mitsuki is suspicious, so, double standards much?

but the main thing that REALLY bugs me is this

btw Blitzy, I doubt Prims or anyone else remembers stuff they've said about their meta that well. I can see trying to contradict his usual meta in general, but I doubt it's specifically because you're playing.

in the bolded italics part, Kay says Prims is contradicting his usual meta, meaning his usual meta when he is town, he never says it, but this time he did, meaning she knew he was town, how do you think that is.

at this point I was gonna say "Prims may have been her town read, but she clearly never stated it", but I don't think that is the case form the post she just made.

(I thought I might be able to find something else, but I guess I was wrong, also Prims has a point where he pointed out the Kay's post on Refa)

Unvote

##Vote: Kay

also, Refa should really start existing again. Proto needs to exist too and take care of BBM's share of work too since he said he won't be around for phase end.

moving on

BBM said this, which perfectly fit what I was thinking when I left my vote on Mitsuki

Also, scum say that they have trouble getting reads literally all the time as an excuse. What I said was pretty null. I think it's an attempt on her part to fake more content because she really doesn't have any solid opinions on anyone other than Blitz atm.

if my vote is considered as a prodvote, her lack of content is enough reason to leave that vote on her. If you look at [link=this post]http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=45790&view=findpost&p=2901190[/link]

you see that her only other point beside the one she used to attack me is talking about why the masons are more likely town and that she didn't actually find Refa that suspicious to begin with. She should really have more thoughts regarding the game or at least she should try to attempt stuff in her posts to get more reads like how Prims is constantly switching around votes to get better reads (I think Kay's vote on Prims is pretty weak cause that is how Prims scum hunts by hiding his real thoughts, if he were voted every time he did stuff like that, he would never walk past D1.)

Basically Mitsuki reminds me of scum, who knows too much to bother getting reads, but since I have never played with her before and because I think Kay is scum and Kay is attacking Kevin a lot and defending Mitsuki (another meta I would have liked to save, I think Kay's scum meta is cut off and live, where she literally attacks her scum buddies to live longer), I think Mitsuki is less likely to be scum.

Moving on to Kevin, who I think is the other scum at the moment

in Kevin's first post we have

Just because she didn't add anything new to the discussion she is putting pressure on someone with her vote and that accomplishes stuff.

tell me what Mitsuki accomplished so far and I will buy your point. Also tell me how the pressure made me post more than I would have (if I looked at the history, I posted far less after the pressure than I did before, lol)

It's ok to not be sure that the person is scum from one or two scummy plays but to not chase up someone who's scummy because they might not be scum isn't going to accomplish anything.

if everyone is chasing the same person, who will be chasing someone like me or you?

So you're going to keep voting Mitsuki even though she gave you her thoughts? What happened to not liking Kay and wanting to find something out from her, you haven't talked about that and expanded if you liked what you saw or whatever.

Mitsuki's thoughts are lacking in a lot of points

I wanted my Kay vote to come more into the day because I can't change a vote to get reads when it is stuck in one place.

and then we have this

@BBM I'm voting Blitz because his actions have scum intent, instead of scumhunting he chose to vote park without justification and seemingly dropped a suspicion(Kay). Dodging scumhunting + randomly dropping suspicion is scummy, not weird play.

explain why I have scum intent.

so, in short, I think it is a scum team of Kay and Kevin (if Kay isn't scum, Mitsuki could be one, but Mitsuki and Kevin both attacked me, plus Kevin defended Mitsuki, making me think it cannot be Kevin plus Mitsuki either) because Kevin feels much more like those "I want a quick lynch on this loser Blitz cause he is so easy to do so" plus the way Kay has been subtly attacking Kevin and vise versa makes me think I am right.

[Refa]

Yeah, I exist. And not on a phone too! Reading the last couple of pages, post should be out soon, blablabla.

[Kay]

first of all, Kay said she found Proto suspicious,

I guess it is expected with Proto's only post being

which is literally followed by Mitsuki's

this is exactly the same as what Proto did, but worse, right?

but when I asked Kay her thoughts on Mitsuki, she says

and as you see in the first quote of her, she doesn't think Mitsuki is suspicious, so, double standards much?

Note that I was suspicious of the masons claim already, Proto's lack of saying things just doesn't help. Furthermore, Mitsuki is new to SF, if not to mafia, and I generally give people some time to get used to any differences in playstyle before treating them as veteran players.

in the bolded italics part, Kay says Prims is contradicting his usual meta, meaning his usual meta when he is town, he never says it, but this time he did, meaning she knew he was town, how do you think that is.

Um, what. That was in reply to you saying Prims was town because Prims never says he's town when he is, so clearly he was doing it this game so you would vote him and it would start discussion or whatever the heck you meant. I meant, Prims may have been trying to avoid having a consistent meta about it by doing it as town this time, but I doubt he would have specifically remembered saying that to you.

Kay has been subtly attacking Kevin and vise versa makes me think I am right.

How have I been subtly attacking Kevin, I thought I was pretty blatantly attacking Kevin.

[Kay]

Also Blitzy, do you have any thoughts on my last post (by this I mean #151)?

[Blitz]

you did indeed attack Kevin, but to prove my point, your vote is on a guy who is doing a lot better than Kevin IMO in terms of overall play (basically, I am saying if you are scum, like I think you are, you would be playing it safe enough to not lynch your scumbuddy this time around, but in case he does get lynched, your posts will say you always supported that lynch, which can be seen with your play and Kevin this game)

I do not actually like your attack on Prims (would have been more justified earlier in the phase IMO though)

I do agree with most of your points on Kevin and I just realized, the stuff I accused Mitsuki of, can all be pointed to Kevin too. He only made one post regarding his reads and just decided to go off on those for the rest of his posts. He has so far tried no scum hunting and he defended Mitsuki, who is scummy IMO (making me think Kevin actually knows that she isn't part of his scum team). He tried to do an attack on SB, but dropped it halfway and decided to go back on his Blitz attack again (what I mean is, attacking someone you think is scum is fine but should try to point out more stuff every now and then to say the person is scum and try to convince others on why they should agree with your lynch target, but Kevin isn't coming close to doing that, plus he gives off the aura that his read is final)

I think I like him worse than Kay and will completely agree to lynch either Kay or Kevin (Kevin gets a little more point in getting my approval of a lynch target) unless I see other reason to change my opinion

also, in other news, SB should get in here and Refa should stop being MIA

and Proto needs to wake up

I dunno if I should be discussing power roles (I mean Mitsuki's role)

but I guess I will do it anyways,from my PoV other than the mason claim, I think I can see one other PR and 2 other vanillas, so I don't see how it is impossible for her to be a PR.

[SB.]

working on a post now

[SB.]

I voted Refa because it's the best I could do at that moment. I didn't find anything else real suspicious back then. I did think Refa was a bit scummy, don't put words on my mouth. SB, Prims, why are you bringing that up now when it didn't bother you when I voted him?

I thought when you were voting him you at least found him kinda scummy, but your posts since made it pretty clear that wasn't the case.

Probably won't be here for phase end. Mitsuki's conviction that she won't get lynched feels like an attempt at intimidation because I can't imagine Elie would put any super obvtown would-not-lynch roles in the game when there are also Masons. And she's at 2 votes and SB indicated earlier that he also found her suspicious, so she's definitely a viable candidate.

What Mitsuki said about that is null imo, she could just be confident that she won't be lynched over cases that she perceives as weak, rather than due to a PR that she think will save her if she claims it.

idk most of these wallposts aren't really leaving an impression on me, I think Blitz is town but some of the stuff he's saying is kinda flawed wrt associative reads between Kay and kirsche, especially when neither have flipped yet, and I don't find Kay's responses to really be scummy either.

Find Mitsuki to be scummier than Refa, but I wouldn't mind lynching him either. Some of BBM's posts have bugged me but I don't think a mason claim lynch is going to happen, and nobody else left enough of an impact for me to want to lynch them.

##Unvote

##Vote: Mitsuki

[Mitsuki]

I don't like how Prims is doing almost nothing and posting too little. Then again, even if I have changed my opinion on him from "might be town" to neutral, it stays that way. I'm supposed to be good at gutreading him, but I don't seem to be able to get a read on him like that this time.

Upon ISOing I don't like how he dropped SB for a gutvote when he had objective reasoning on him. Prims, why did you think that a vote on me was better? I know you were reaction testing me, but after that your vote stayed. Also, what do you think of SB now?

I think it's scummy how Blitz used BBM's recent reasoning to explain why he kept his vote on me when he didn't say anything at the time. Also, Blitz, why was voting me better than voting someone who you actually thought was scummy?

Probably won't be here for phase end. Mitsuki's conviction that she won't get lynched feels like an attempt at intimidation because I can't imagine Elie would put any super obvtown would-not-lynch roles in the game when there are also Masons.

I don't know how your latter point explains your first one. Anyways, does this make me scummy? Why?

It just feels like you're interpreting everything I say from a biased point of view, because if you stop suspecting me you'll have to think and you don't have many reads.

And I've only been lynched once in ~10 games (when I played with IRL friends), while in most of them I've been put at L-1 at some point. Also, Blitz's previous vote on me was still a prodvote, while Prims' vote is gut. I also think that other suspicions on me are either weak or bad. It's not about the amout of votes, but rather about their quality.

Also, I asked you a question: what do you think of Blitz's previous vote on me?

I thought when you were voting him you at least found him kinda scummy, but your posts since made it pretty clear that wasn't the case.

What would you expect a townie to do if, upon reading the thread, they thought something was scummy but not too much and they had to do other stuff then leave for 24 hours?

Furthermore, Mitsuki is new to SF, if not to mafia, and I generally give people some time to get used to any differences in playstyle before treating them as veteran players.

I'm not new to mafia, just new to SF.

Should I claim?

[Blitz]

idk most of these wallposts aren't really leaving an impression on me, I think Blitz is town but some of the stuff he's saying is kinda flawed wrt associative reads between Kay and kirsche, especially when neither have flipped yet, and I don't find Kay's responses to really be scummy either.

what I gave was my reads on them, so what you think is your choice, BUT, I still think Kevin is scummier than Mitsuki (Mitsuki is mainly scummy for her Refa vote and not doing much in general and also trying to defend herself from time to time, Kevin on the other hand just made one post and decided to live his entire game on it plus he wasn't actually attacked before, so we don't know his defenses) overall amd you should put that into consideration.

I know Kay hasn't flipped, but I normally almost always look for groups over single people cause it is easier to do it that way (this is the first game where I am actually posting all my main thoughts on D1, and not holding much back)

I have also played a lot of games with Kay and her play just seems like scum Kay to me, but I cannot determine exactly what it is (and other things I can determine, people will say I am just stretchig it, lol)

btw, just flavor speccing, but if there was a third party who would it be and what would mostly fit that role?

[Blitz]

What would you expect a townie to do if, upon reading the thread, they thought something was scummy but not too much and they had to do other stuff then leave for 24 hours?

you have a very flawed way of thinking, I wouldn't mind lynching you, now that I have seen the way think that is.

(what I mean is that you are supposed to do what normally comes to you, not do what you are expected to do, only scum would think that way)

also, wheteher you should claim or not, I will leave it to the mason (Proto, get in here and give an answer to this)

also, you have no idea on how silly some of the lynches of sf has been (I once got lynched with only 2 votes and I was the mayor there )

plus we don't need hammer in this phase

[Refa]

I fell asleep, GG post. How much time is left?

Uh, yes. Also, did your buddy claim immediately, or not?
Once he revealed he was crumbing it with the scum claim, it was pretty obvious.

Uh...no, but it wasn't exactly the usual mason thing. Basically our roles were proven town but not ourselves if that makes any sense (and there wasn't a mason QT or anything either).

You waffled with your "I agree with Prims about BBM being scummy, but I agree with BBM more and so I'll sheep on Prims" thing. I see where you're coming from, but you could retroactively try to take credit for whichever opinion was more useful if one of them dies, so it's still an issue of possible scum intent.

I don't think BBM is scum, though, so...yeah.

I am still okay with a Refa lynch. I really don't like some of his recent points, especially his vote on Kay. All she said about the mason thing is that it wouldn't be unthinkable for Proto and BBM to be scum and pretend to be Masons to destroy the Town while everyone thinks they're cleared. It would make perfect sense, then, to not treat Proto and BBM as cleared Town. I don't get why this bothers Refa enough to make him vote for Kay.

I also wrote other points that bothered me about Kay in the post above, and why I felt better about voting her than Prims.

Also, Blitzy actually troubles me quite a bit too. I'm reading his posts, and they all seem to be normal Mafia-like posts, with none of his ridiculous playstyle that pisses the hell out of everyone. In a way, the fact that his posts aren't bothering me is what makes his posts bother me. This is not Blitzy's style and I'm beginning to wonder if he's actually scum, trying to be a little more cautious about being his usual self that often gets him lynched (which would be really bad for the Mafia in a 9-player game).

Are you suspicious of him only because he's not playing to his meta (you never clarified if he did that as town or scum, so I'm assuming both)? Like I can see why a townie wouldn't want to be mislynched either, so it confuses me that you think he's probably scum due to that.

Blitzy thinks votes on Refa are bad because they all follow what is in his opinion flawed logic: that it was scummy for Refa to sheep BBM and vote his townread, even though there wasn't much else for him to do besides vote for someone with no posts.

I wasn't townreading Prims, I said that he made a towntell and BBM's scumread was stronger than that. :\

Overall thoughts listed below:

-Still feel like Kay is the scummiest player of them all. I think Blitz brought up a good point WRT to her Proto/Mitsuki suspicion, reads as a double standard to me.

-Blitz is coming across as townie for the most part, but I don't really like looking for associative reads without flips because it really skews your perspective and that never helps (to clarify, I don't view this as scummy, just bad play really). Also if he'd rather lynch kirsche than Kay, then well...why isn't his vote on kirsche?

-I'll have to look into SB and kirsche another time, they haven't left too much an impression on me thus far.

-I feel better about Prims, I think he made some good points and none of his recent posts are coming across as scummy to me.

-I don't think Mitsuki is scum. "Why would you say that Refa, are you sure you're not her SCUMBUDDY?" Asks Prims some completely random person. It's like, OK I don't agree with her Blitz case but it doesn't strike me as a scummy case and I feel like she made good points elsewhere. I don't get what peoples' problems are with her read on me, I don't see the scum intent in voting me and later on saying "OK, so I reread him and I don't think he's that scummy" when she could like, have not said anything there at all.

[SB.]

I don't really feel like Prims has been getting by with low activity, especially considering his postcount is higher than half of the thread's. I am curious what he thinks of me since he withdrew his vote though.

What would you expect a townie to do if, upon reading the thread, they thought something was scummy but not too much and they had to do other stuff then leave for 24 hours?

So you did think it was scummy? I was under the impression you didn't.

And yes claim.

[SB.]

Actually you aren't at L-1 anymore since Blitz moved his vote so maybe not.

[Elieson]

5 hours 45 left

[Mitsuki]

Blitz, why is the fact that I defend myself scummy? Also, I'd like you to answer my previous question (Why was voting me better than voting someone who you actually thought was scummy?)

I don't really think a 9p game where there are two masons would have a 3rd party. Anyways, I don't think any MLP character specially fits any 3rd party, but that might be my terrible memory.

you have a very flawed way of thinking, I wouldn't mind lynching you, now that I have seen the way think that is.

(what I mean is that you are supposed to do what normally comes to you, not do what you are expected to do, only scum would think that way)

Of course I do what comes from me, that was just a question to SB.

By the way SB, that doesn't answer my question.

Yeah, I'm at L-2 but hammer is not required, that's why I was asking.

[SB.]

If you weren't suspicious of someone I don't know why you would dress your vote up like you were when there was no big rush to vote or anything.

And now I'd like you to answer mine.

[Mitsuki]

I thought yours was a rethorical question.

I've been saying for a while I thought it was scummy, but not too scummy. I don't see why I shouldn't have voted under my circumstances at that time.

[Zkirsche]

Mitsuki you should probably claim because there's like 5 hours left.

Doing nothing but voting isn't scummy compared to doing nothing, true, but doing nothing is pretty bad.

But Mitsuki didn't do nothing, she made a vote which is pressuring someone to make a post and gets across the message that they needed to explain themselves better. More votes mean that the person takes stuff more seriously.

Refa had plenty of pressure on him at the time, I think.

2 votes, one of which is Proto who put in a line, not much more than Mitsuki. Also the fact that you didn't even bother checking is amazing. Lots of thought and care is going into this case I see.

Posting content is not an automatic get-out-of-jail-free card, your content still has to sound townish.

Yeah this is true except Blitz didn't comment on the content at all. Which is the actual point I'm making. If you're going to call me bad read what I say so I don't have to repeat myself and waste time which I could be spending scumhunting.

Blitzy thinks votes on Refa are bad because they all follow what is in his opinion flawed logic: that it was scummy for Refa to sheep BBM and vote his townread, even though there wasn't much else for him to do besides vote for someone with no posts.

Voting Kevin adds at least some pressure for him to post.

First of all, there isn't anyone called Kevin in the playerlist.

Second of all, voting me is ok because it pressures me to vote, but Refa isn't allowed to vote someone with no posts so that they will post? Refa was not forced to sheep BBM, which is what is seemingly being implied here.

tell me what Mitsuki accomplished so far and I will buy your point. Also tell me how the pressure made me post more than I would have (if I looked at the history, I posted far less after the pressure than I did before, lol)

Mitsuki is scumhunting and poking you and Kay. Ok bought point moving on...

.. or not. We're talking about pressuring Refa and I'm not going to answer why having multiple votes on someone is better at pressuring them than just one or two because I assume you're not a complete moron.

if everyone is chasing the same person, who will be chasing someone like me or you?

No, this is not what you said. You did not say you didn't chase Refa because there was a lot of pressure on him in what I quoted. You said you didn't chase Refa because even though he was scummy he might not be scum. Don't dodge the point please.

Mitsuki's thoughts are lacking in a lot of points

Ok cool, why didn't you talk about them then?

explain why I have scum intent.

Did it in the quote.

Kay has been subtly attacking Kevin and vise versa makes me think I am right.

Kay has been subtlety attacking who?

How have I been subtly attacking Kevin, I thought I was pretty blatantly attacking Kevin.

Who the fuck is this Kevin bloke? Some hidden player I'm not aware of?

I think I might need to reread Prims because I'm getting paranoid. Also doubting my SB read.

Blitz > Refa

[Refa]

kirsche, do you find Kay scummy? Like you wrote an entire post replying to her and it seems that way but then she's not even on your lynch priority so I have no idea what to think there.

[Blitz]

I fell asleep, GG post. How much time is left?

Uh...no, but it wasn't exactly the usual mason thing. Basically our roles were proven town but not ourselves if that makes any sense (and there wasn't a mason QT or anything either).

did you just claim to be part of the masons refa?

also, I will most likely be around for phase end, so I can change whenever (as you can see I am around now)

Blitz, why is the fact that I defend myself scummy? Also, I'd like you to answer my previous question (Why was voting me better than voting someone who you actually thought was scummy?)

I don't really think a 9p game where there are two masons would have a 3rd party. Anyways, I don't think any MLP character specially fits any 3rd party, but that might be my terrible memory.

Of course I do what comes from me, that was just a question to SB.

sorry, I meant that you defending yourself was the only other thing you did, did not mean it as a suspicious thing. As for Kevin, I meant that he never had to defend himself, so his posts are different from you in that regard.

Elie really loves 3rd parties, you never know where he will put them. Plus a 3rd party wold help with my theories

but your answer sounded like you don't. (this is an NOC game, I can take whatever I want from wherever I want)

[Mitsuki]

Kirsche, Kay is neutral to me.

My character is Trixie, and I'm the town active/passive role checker. My reply to BBM here was a crumb, as masons existing in this game means that town won't have many power roles while scum will definitely have at least one each, which makes my role weak enough but useful.

[Refa]

did you just claim to be part of the masons refa?

Nonononononono, I was talking about a past game!

[Zkirsche]

@Refa: Kay's logic against me is bad but that doesn't mean she's scum. If she actually reads my post and comes to the same stuff she put there then I may rethink this opinion but right now I have no reason to believe that this is not just bad reading comprehension.

[Blitz]

Reight let's start things up with

KevinKitty kirsche Jul 15 2011 01:04 AM

that is the name change history of Kevin to Kirsche, in otherwords, calling you Kevin is fair game

I just realized something, your post is so filled with garbage that I really see no reason to respond to any of those points

come up with some better points and come up with some actual reads besides me and Refa, that is clearly another thing you are badly lacking