Fire Emblem Heroes General Discussion and Links

[salinea]

3 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

For most purposes, a character is rated on mobility---the ability to get places, matchup spread---the ability to win fights, and utility---dances, buffing, etc. And it's a fairly simple matter to see how well a character does in each of those roles. (Cavalry are basically automatic 'B' or better in mobility and utility, so they're more or less the best class type, flying comes second with below average mobility but B or better utility, infantry third since they're below average in both, and then armors last because, sure, they have good utility, but their mobility is dumpster tier.) All the theorycraft in the world can't turn Effie into Reinhardt, there are roles characters need to fulfill for a functional team, whether you're facing TT, Arena, Arena chain, or whatever, and all characters can be rated on how well they fulfill those roles, and how many roles they can fulfill.

I remember you once posted a list of your "criteria" for ranking units; and it was a very well thought out way of putting things. Wish I had saved it at the time. Can you remind me back how it went? (or link me to a place where you did)

[DehNutCase]

7 minutes ago, salinea said:

I remember you once posted a list of your "criteria" for ranking units; and it was a very well thought out way of putting things. Wish I had saved it at the time. Can you remind me back how it went? (or link me to a place where you did)

I think it went something like:

Offense/Bulk/Counter-kill/Mobility/Support.

Offense is player phase matchups. Bulk is the ability not to die in matchups. Counter-kill is enemy phase matchups (related to bulk, but 1 hp Reinhardt still has amazing counter-kill thanks to Vantage, so it's not the same), mobility is both movement range and attack range (so cavalry mages rank highest, ranged and cavalry in general in second, infantry below average, and armors shit tier), and support is both buffs needed to function (CC Reinhardt has high support needed---a low rank---because he needs +6/+6 at minimum, and is best at +6 all stats [edit: but regular Reinhardt needs basically 0 support, so ranks higher]), and utility provided (dancers, class buff access, etc.).

Edited August 10, 2017 by DehNutCase

[Elieson]

14 minutes ago, JSND said:

"Olivia S > A+, Dancers provide amazing utility. It is undeniable how powerful refresh is, however in the end, a dancer is a support unit that lets you use the same powerful unit twice when you could just use 2 powerful units with movement assists to get people out of dancer akin to a dancer. Also to note is that dancers commonly use gem weapons is can backfire if you run into a cancel affinity WTA hero. "

 

Sounds like you just quoted a good case for Olivia being in A+

I mean, dancers in regular FE aren't automatically Stier just because they exist either and heck they barely even fight for a deployment slot and some can't even battle.

[DehNutCase]

4 minutes ago, Elieson said:

Sounds like you just quoted a good case for Olivia being in A+

I mean, dancers in regular FE aren't automatically Stier just because they exist either and heck they barely even fight for a deployment slot and some can't even battle.

I'm pretty sure he was quoting the reasoning section for tier list changes. I fail at reading.

Edit: Personally, I think dancers suffer from the fact that they're not Reinhardt, but for general purpose teams, they should be rated as one of the best, simply due how good dance as a effect is. The very best teams (4 cavs), probably don't need dancers since their effects can be replicated with positioning assists and amazing enemy phase (Vantage OHKO 2 dudes in EP and it's like you danced twice), but below that dancers have a very real niche.

The fact that Dancers and Galeforce have strong synergy also helps prop them up. Killing 3 people with 2 units on PP strengthens a player phase team's potential a lot.

Edited August 10, 2017 by DehNutCase

[salinea]

8 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

I think it went something like:

Offense/Bulk/Counter-kill/Mobility/Support.

Offense is player phase matchups. Bulk is the ability not to die in matchups. Counter-kill is enemy phase matchups (related to bulk, but 1 hp Reinhardt still has amazing counter-kill thanks to Vantage, so it's not the same), mobility is both movement range and attack range (so cavalry mages rank highest, ranged and cavalry in general in second, infantry below average, and armors shit tier), and support is both buffs needed to function (CC Reinhardt has high support needed---a low rank---because he needs +6/+6 at minimum, and is best at +6 all stats [edit: but regular Reinhardt needs basically 0 support, so ranks higher]), and utility provided (dancers, class buff access, etc.).

Thanks!

Saving it this time :)

[MrSmokestack]

2 minutes ago, Elieson said:

Sounds like you just quoted a good case for Olivia being in A+

I mean, dancers in regular FE aren't automatically Stier just because they exist either and heck they barely even fight for a deployment slot and some can't even battle.

Legion lookses at it this way:

Not allses of us have two copies of Reinhardt, Nino, or Bride Cordelia! Uwe hee hee!

Edited August 10, 2017 by Legion!

[Elieson]

Just now, Legion! said:

Legions lookses at it this wayses:

Not allses of us have two copies of Reinhardt, Nino, or Bride Cordelia! Uwe hee hee!

Yea but consider this;

 

If you're running a Ruby Olivia, you're probably not running a super combat capable red unit in her place. She's not exactly going to wall common threats that blues and greens have and she'll do alright to plug up some green magegirls or something but she's just incredibly average, statwise, and doesn't provide insane buffs to unittypes that can reap the rewards of it.

 

And hecksses, I don't even haveses one Bride Cordelia!

[Vaximillian]

7 minutes ago, Elieson said:

And hecksses, I don't even haveses one Bride Cordelia!

Seasonals are overrated. Unless it’s Sharena but we all know it’s not going to happen, so…

[GuiltyLove]

Just now, Vaximillian said:

Seasonals are overrated. Unless it’s Sharena but we all know it’s not going to happen, so…

MAGE

FLIER

Those are not overrated >:( Flier Emblem needs all the help it can get!

[Elieson]

Just now, Vaximillian said:

Seasonals are overrated. Unless it’s Sharena but we all know it’s not going to happen, so…

Please, when my Askrio gets a Sensational Season Spectacular, you know I'm all over that shit.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

3 minutes ago, Elieson said:

Yea but consider this;

 

If you're running a Ruby Olivia, you're probably not running a super combat capable red unit in her place. She's not exactly going to wall common threats that blues and greens have and she'll do alright to plug up some green magegirls or something but she's just incredibly average, statwise, and doesn't provide insane buffs to unittypes that can reap the rewards of it.

 

And hecksses, I don't even haveses one Bride Cordelia!

 

Yeah but the thing is i consider the contribution of Dance + C slot all by itself is enough to put Olivia in S+ Tier. 2 Reinhardt doesn't allow Reinhardt 1 to move on a wider range of spot since as overpowered as Reposition is, its one thing that it can't do

Also isn't there only like 3 game where Dancer isn't S tier?

[Vaximillian]

2 minutes ago, GuiltyLove said:

MAGE

FLIER

Overrated.

2 minutes ago, Elieson said:

Please, when my Askrio gets a Sensational Season Spectacular, you know I'm all over that shit.

Seasonal Albert is fine. Seasonal Anna too, for that matter.

[GuiltyLove]

Just now, Vaximillian said:

Overrated.

Not so sure about overrated. They are definitely very useful for flier emblem, as there are no other mage fliers besides the two seasonal ones

[immatx]

Lmao did one full summon session on hero fest cuz why not and i got a second julia, +spd -hp. I'll probably raise her too just cuz, maybe life and death thanks too the +spd

[Poimagic]

I just noticed this, but Raven's voice actor sounds a lot like Kamui from Echoes.

[Tybrosion]

6 minutes ago, Poimagic said:

I just noticed this, but Raven's voice actor sounds a lot like Kamui from Echoes.

They do share the same VA: Bryce Papenbrook. He's also Henry in Awakening and Heroes, Karel in Heroes and child Conrad in Echoes.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Tybrosion

[Vaximillian]

2 minutes ago, Poimagic said:

I just noticed this, but Raven's voice actor sounds a lot like Kamui from Echoes.

Because both are Bryce Papenbrook.

4 minutes ago, GuiltyLove said:

Not so sure about overrated. They are definitely very useful for flier emblem, as there are no other mage fliers besides the two seasonal ones

There were no mage fliers in the Whitewings, my dear!

[GuiltyLove]

Just now, Vaximillian said:

There were no mage fliers in the Whitewings, my dear!

S E A S O N A L  C A T R I A

IIRC Catria was a Dark Flier in FE13 DLC, right? I hope she gets added~

[Othin]

18 minutes ago, Elieson said:

Yea but consider this;

 

If you're running a Ruby Olivia, you're probably not running a super combat capable red unit in her place. She's not exactly going to wall common threats that blues and greens have and she'll do alright to plug up some green magegirls or something but she's just incredibly average, statwise, and doesn't provide insane buffs to unittypes that can reap the rewards of it.

 

And hecksses, I don't even haveses one Bride Cordelia!

Four slots on a team means you can run a full-combat red, a full-combat blue, a full-combat green, and a dancer. Ruby Sword Olivia can't do everything you'd want a red unit to do, but she can still handle a lot of greens, so your main red has less to worry about. And with how powerful TA is, I don't think it'd be that unreasonable to run Ruby Sword Olivia as your only red, especially if you have Axebreaker or G Tomebreaker somewhere.

[Elieson]

Just now, Othin said:

Four slots on a team means you can run a full-combat red, a full-combat blue, a full-combat green, and a dancer. Ruby Sword Olivia can't do everything you'd want a red unit to do, but she can still handle a lot of greens, so your main red has less to worry about. And with how powerful TA is, I don't think it'd be that unreasonable to run Ruby Sword Olivia as your only red, especially if you have Axebreaker or G Tomebreaker somewhere.

You could also slap in a blue dancer or a brave bow user or something...that last slot is flexible enough. With so many good units being blues and greens though, reds aren't like, Ultra imperative to run because they're just commonly overwhelmed. 

[Tybrosion]

7 minutes ago, GuiltyLove said:

S E A S O N A L  C A T R I A

IIRC Catria was a Dark Flier in FE13 DLC, right? I hope she gets added~

Yeah, Dark Flier Catria was the reward for one of the really difficult DLC maps, Five-Anna Firefight to be specific.

[GuiltyLove]

9 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

Yeah, Dark Flier Catria was the reward for one of the really difficult DLC maps, Five-Anna Firefight to be specific.

I hope we get her..............................

I would actually be tempted to spend money on the game

[Vaximillian]

1 minute ago, GuiltyLove said:

I would actually be tempted to spend money on the game

Better spend money on me.

[GuiltyLove]

Just now, Vaximillian said:

Better spend money on me.

Not unless Sharena becomes a dancer in a seasonal banner

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

I mean, this is the same Tier List that puts Hector [edit: and Effie, lul] on the same level as Reinhardt.

 

Reinhardt, whose enemy phase is actually better than Hector's, while having 3 move and the name 'Reinhardt' during player phase.

Edit: I mean, just look at how high Eirika and Ephraim are placed---all horses and fliers should be strictly higher than those two because they have better buffing ability +6/+6 vs. +3/+4, while retaining the same move or better and having comparable or better combat. (And horse/flier buffs aren't weapon locked, so cavs and fliers can run weapons other than basically a 16 MT silver.)

The tier list is basically a popularity list more than anything else.

The main tier list is still excluding the existence of movement-type specific buffs, meaning they have strictly worse buffing ability compared to Eirika, Ephraim, and Delthea.

The reddit post also indicates that they are adding separate tier lists that include movement-type buffs.

 

48 minutes ago, JSND said:

I mean i don't exactly consider this gamepedia tier seriously

Not when

"Olivia S > A+, Dancers provide amazing utility. It is undeniable how powerful refresh is, however in the end, a dancer is a support unit that lets you use the same powerful unit twice when you could just use 2 powerful units with movement assists to get people out of dancer akin to a dancer. Also to note is that dancers commonly use gem weapons is can backfire if you run into a cancel affinity WTA hero. "

Dancers have basically four things they can do that can't be duplicated by replacing them with another unit:

1. Act as a second copy of any unit on your team instead of just as a single unit. The downside is that "both copies" of your unit when a dancer counts as one share HP because they are, in fact, actually the same unit.
2. Self-Reposition chain. Dance a unit that has Reposition, and that unit can move themselves backwards with the dancer, which puts the pair one square farther back than having another unit just use Reposition.
3. Double movement distance. When you need to shoot a cavalry unit to the other side of the map or get your damned armors into the right formation.
4. Wings of Mercy chain. Single attacker with two or three Dancers.

And in many cases, simply having another strong unit is enough to not make these necessary.

 

Though, the main thing I got out of reading the reddit post was that I forgot Def Ploy now exists and is a good skill for infantry and mixed teams.

I'm now tempted to build an Est for Def Ploy for when it finally gets added to the regular summoning pool (no way in hell I'm eating a limited character for it, even if said limited character happens to be Gaius).