Fire Emblem Heroes General Discussion and Links

[MonkeyCheez3K]

Man, with all this talk about CC being good or underwhelming I have no clue anymore on what I should be doing with my spare Takumi. I am holding onto him right now for being a rather worthless +HP/+RES merge if I felt like it. I kinda wanted to slap him onto a possible Leo in the future (or whatever nonsense IS throws at us in future banners), but CC is so rare for people like me, who don't use piles of monehz, that I now fear I'll be keeping him indefinitely, catching dust all day long while I doubt every option.

[Ice Dragon]

11 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

huh is Math Majors actually did most stuff calced lol

It's mostly that once you get past calculus, you stop using numbers. Numbers simply become labels for concepts, and you go out an prove that numbers behave how they do (one of the more interesting introductory proofs is the proof that multiplying anything by zero gives you zero, which needs to be proved because zero is a concept from the function of addition and not from the function of multiplication).

And then by the end of it, you forget how to do arithmetic.

 

14 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Also whats the proper marks for now again? 58?(standard 56 attack Hector at +5, standard buffed LnD Ayra at +0)

Probably around 55-58.

Xander is at 48 + 3 (Fury 3) + 6 (Hone Cavalry) + 2 (ally support) = 59, so that seems about accurate.

Dierdre is at 47 + 6 (Death Blow 3) + 4 (Hone Atk 3) = 57.

Hector is at 52 + whatever the hell people actually run with Hector.

(I'm just picking random characters and seeing where they land.)

Hmm... maybe 55-58 is a bit low.

[Othin]

Man, having over 30 orbs for the first time in like a month feels so weird. Feels powerful, but a power I had gotten re-accustomed to lacking.

Should be able to stockpile at least 150 by the time the Christmas banner shows up.

[Anacybele]

I've strengthened a certain set of sexy abs. <3

Those stats may not look like all that much at first glance, but he has 41 speed on player phase here with full health. Heh heh. 45 with a Hone Spd buff and 48 atk with a Hone Atk buff!

[LordFrigid]

Well...I really hope that they never put out that volume of weapon upgrades again, because that combat simulator update bordered on painful. Hope I did everything right.

In other news, Wrathful Gravity+ Elise managed to rekindle my desire to play the Tempest Trials. She is so much fun to use.

Edited November 30, 2017 by LordFrigid

[property of nuvelle]

Thought I'd try it once. Even if I talked about FE Heroes following slowly becoming a cult before. My letter opener kinda looks like the Golden Dagger, right? Just waiting on the daily reset.

[mcsilas]

2 minutes ago, KongDude said:

Thought I'd try it once. Even if I talked about FE Heroes following slowly becoming a cult before. My letter opener kinda looks like the Golden Dagger, right? Just waiting on the daily reset.

Getting Celica in Warriors should strengthen the effectiveness of your sacrifice...err...summoning circlr

[property of nuvelle]

Just now, mcsilas said:

Getting Celica in Warriors should strengthen the effectiveness of your sacrifice...err...summoning circlr

Guhhhhh.... I haven't played in a while, and I'm still near the beginning of that map...

[Zeo]

1 hour ago, MonkeyCheez3K said:

Man, with all this talk about CC being good or underwhelming I have no clue anymore on what I should be doing with my spare Takumi. I am holding onto him right now for being a rather worthless +HP/+RES merge if I felt like it. I kinda wanted to slap him onto a possible Leo in the future (or whatever nonsense IS throws at us in future banners), but CC is so rare for people like me, who don't use piles of monehz, that I now fear I'll be keeping him indefinitely, catching dust all day long while I doubt every option.

• Matthew
• Saizo
• ToD!Jakob
• Leon
• Virion
• ToD!Henry
• Reinhardt
• Boey
• Merric
• Sophia
• M!Robin
• Henry
• Leo

I'm not partial to half of the units on this list and would put CC on even fewer of them, but most of them could probably make surprisingly good use of it. For me in particular it's nice that dagger debuffs can now occur even if said unit doesn't actually attack, but I already decided on Close Counter Matthew long ago, and so he'll be getting it. Jakob and Henry are great choices if you have them, Reinhardt is apparently amazing with it. So yeah, stuff.

[Vaximillian]

8 minutes ago, KongDude said:

Thought I'd try it once. Even if I talked about FE Heroes following slowly becoming a cult before. My letter opener kinda looks like the Golden Dagger, right? Just waiting on the daily reset.

This is adorable. Hope it works for you! Have you picked a god to pray to?

[Ice Dragon]

10 minutes ago, KongDude said:

Thought I'd try it once. Even if I talked about FE Heroes following slowly becoming a cult before. My letter opener kinda looks like the Golden Dagger, right? Just waiting on the daily reset.

At the very least, it can't hurt.

Assuming it doesn't summon some creature in real life.

 

5 minutes ago, KongDude said:

Guhhhhh.... I haven't played in a while, and I'm still near the beginning of that map...

YOU HAVE THIRTY MINUTES GO.

[property of nuvelle]

1 minute ago, Vaximillian said:

This is adorable. Hope it works for you! Have you picked a god to pray to?

This reminded me I need to play with Mila's Divine Protection when I do it. Thanks.

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

At the very least, it can't hurt.

Assuming it doesn't summon some creature in real life.

Blood would've been considered if the "golden dagger" was sharp enough...

[DehNutCase]

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Right. I dumb and can't do arithmetic without a calculator. (This is what happens when you're a math major.)

 

That said, I really should stop being so conservative with my numbers since buffs are a thing and so are enemy merges and all of the new fancy things we've gotten recently. 50 Atk really isn't all that accurate of a benchmark anymore.

 

@DehNutCase

Also, on thinking it over a bit more, I don't think it's actually accurate to consider only one of Def and Res and not both. Even if in any one given round of combat you only use one of the two, the other one still influences who you can safely engage into combat with.

Sheena (and Sophia to a lesser extent) having both high Def and Res to her name is a boon for her because it lets her wall just about everything that isn't red, not a detriment due to "effectively losing 30 points of her stat total to the defensive stat that doesn't matter in each individual round of combat".

My problem with the Def/Res split is that, if a unit has high enough Spd/Atk/counter-kill ability, Hp has the same effect as Def and Res.

That is, just like how you can ignore Spd as a stat if you always OHKO on the counter/initiation (because followups don't happen if the other side exploded in a single hit), we can marginalize Def and Res as stats because Hp does the job so much better, assuming certain conditions are met. B!Ike does something similar with Urvan, but his job generally requires him to tank multiple rounds of combat, so his def and res actually matter.

 

Like, yeah, let's say a unit gets 6 def/res from distant counter, should that be calculated more or less than 6 hp (which is half the BST increase, assuming we only ever fight ranged people, and only ever on defense), and if so, how much more?

 

Part of the problem is that every unit actually values every stat differently---Speed is almost worthless for Reinhardt for a variety of reasons, but it's one of the only reasons Selena actually works as a tank. Her bulk is above average, sure, like 3 points better than Rein's in both directions, but the reason Rein's bulk works is because he OHKOs or -breaker ignores everyone who tries to double him, whereas Selena has to nab every point of speed she can reasonably get, to reach the 'safety zone' where the people hitting her are either too slow to double or too weak to do significant damage.

In the same way, Sheena values having great def and res a lot (because no way is she pulling off some wonky Vantage Counter-kill build), but, well, a unit with 80 hp/80 atk/0spd/0def/0res also has excellent mixed bulk (although it does, admittedly, explode the first time a brave user touches them), despite not having a single point in def or res.

 

I value TA-3's Def & Res combo at 10 BST not because I value Def & Res as half a BST each, but because I value +5 hp at 5 BST, and it's the closest approximation I can do to value 1 Def & Res at 1 hp. (This is slightly biased because it's far easier to do things like heal/renewal back to full hp between fights if your team has good mobility---able to run the enemy team in circles---and my teams always have good mobility.)

For the record, I also value just 1 Def at about 1 Hp worth of BST each---this seems odd, probably, but the thing about a unit that values Def but not Res is that you're probably never, ever, going to let him get within shooting distance of mages. Any less Res than 'enough to not die in a single round' is basically identical to 0. Vice versa with min-maxed no defense mages. It's an approximation, of course, even the most min-maxed unit, let's call him Bartre, still values his dump stats. Just... there's basically no way Bartre values 1 Res anything close to 1 Hp, Atk, or Def.

[mcsilas]

@KongDude if anything it should be the Sacrifice and the Saint :P

Edited November 30, 2017 by mcsilas

[property of nuvelle]

Well, first session gave me 4* Henry and Fir. Second session had zero reds.

[LordFrigid]

I may have missed this somewhere, but does anyone know how the number of Arena Medals awarded after a match is determined? I believe it noted on the notice board post that it’s based on the battle score, but it seems like taking damage may also be a factor? I’ll have to play some more matches to be sure, but I seem to be getting more if my units take no damage (like, almost double).

Edit: Yeah...I don’t know anymore. Everything was holding up ok until the last two matches I played, where in the first I took damage but picked up ~40 medals, and in the next took no damage and picked up ~20. So...*shrug*.

Edited November 30, 2017 by LordFrigid

[Ice Dragon]

7 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

-things-

Basically, what you're saying, and what I agree with, is that stats that are too low to matter don't really count for anything. For example, Delthea has 13 Def, but as far as any of her match-ups care, it doesn't matter if it's 13 Def or 0 Def because she explodes to physical attacks either way.

So back to Triangle Adept. Triangle Adept does the equivalent of add 11~13 or so to Atk, Def, and Res. For just about every unit that uses Triangle Adept, that brings all three of Atk, Def, and Res into a stat range where it actually matters what the value of that stat is. As such, it is typically worth its full value of 33~39 points because it is actually contributing meaningfully to all three stats.

 

11 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

In the same way, Sheena values having great def and res a lot (because no way is she pulling off some wonky Vantage Counter-kill build), but, well, a unit with 80 hp/80 atk/0spd/0def/0res also has excellent mixed bulk (although it does, admittedly, explode the first time a brave user touches them), despite not having a single point in def or res.

The fact that it does explode to any Brave weapon is a huge problem. 80/80 bulk for a single hit is great, but 40/40 bulk for two hits is not great.

The concept of HP as bulk is easier to compare to Def and Res if you look at HP in terms of Def and Res and not Def and Res in terms of HP. 1 HP is exactly equivalent to 1 point of Def and 1 point of Res the first time you are attacked and 0 points of Def and 0 points of Res after that. That is the exact equivalence between HP and the defensive buffers if you don't need to account for damage reduction skills and healing. The more hits a unit is intended to take, the less each point of HP is worth to it.

[Alexmender]

Ugh...The arena quests are nothing more than busywork. If anyone want easy 3 orbs just do the AA trick of using only 1 unit and do runs in beginner, there's even a weaponless Michalis in case you haven't done the Anna/Michalis quests for some reason.

Something of note is that doing this only awards like 17 Arena medals match instead of the 40 something you get from a full match in advanced with a good team and stuff.

[MonkeyCheez3K]

1 hour ago, Zeo said:

• Leon
• Reinhardt
• Boey
• Sophia
• M!Robin
• Leo

I'm not partial to half of the units on this list and would put CC on even fewer of them, but most of them could probably make surprisingly good use of it. For me in particular it's nice that dagger debuffs can now occur even if said unit doesn't actually attack, but I already decided on Close Counter Matthew long ago, and so he'll be getting it. Jakob and Henry are great choices if you have them, Reinhardt is apparently amazing with it. So yeah, stuff.

Well, striking off any unit I won't use (don't care, bad unit (very underwhelming unit), or not worth the effort + unachievable in the long run (armor teams)) makes it easier for me, I guess? Robin is probably another underwhelming unit, Sophia should stick to TA-Raven imo. Boey is... kinda eluding me and not even sure if I want to dedicate my only CC to him, Leon has kinda the same issue as Boey, though would at least have the benefit of getting merges everytime i go into colourless hell. Leaving Rein and Leo from the previous debate on how CC is great or not so great.

Yeah, I'll continue doubting...., thx nonetheless

[Hilda]

I am getting migranes from all this pointless Reinhardt talk

[DehNutCase]

35 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Basically, what you're saying, and what I agree with, is that stats that are too low to matter don't really count for anything. For example, Delthea has 13 Def, but as far as any of her match-ups care, it doesn't matter if it's 13 Def or 0 Def because she explodes to physical attacks either way.

So back to Triangle Adept. Triangle Adept does the equivalent of add 11~13 or so to Atk, Def, and Res. For just about every unit that uses Triangle Adept, that brings all three of Atk, Def, and Res into a stat range where it actually matters what the value of that stat is. As such, it is typically worth its full value of 33~39 points because it is actually contributing meaningfully to all three stats.

The problem is that units with high def and res (or at least acceptable def and res) are far rarer than units with high def but no res, and vice versa. Actually, it's a bit worse than that. Henry is the poster child of dumping everything to max def and res, and, honestly, even -blade tome has trouble fixing his spread. (He can run QR CC, I guess, but god damn that build makes me cry, considering how much support it needs, how much it costs, and how little it actually gives compared to other units that can run a CC set.)

I mean, I guess Henry's a bit nicer now, since staves might actually matter, so a TA-3, QR build with, say, Noontime/Sol or something to hard counter greens and colorless is pretty nice, but the problem with Henry is that, while he does an excellent Hector impersonation, he's actually a pretty bad mage, since, like Hector, he basically has no player phase.

Like, I mentioned that bit about Bartre not caring about Res, so more points in Res won't actually improve him much as a unit, but the thing is, I do dock points from him for that, for the fact that he can't tank mages. Henry's in the same situation, a bit more Atk or a bit more Spd won't fix him as a unit---his base set is kind of his only real niche---but just because TA-3 is great for him doesn't mean TA-3 is a great skill*, if you get what I mean.

*Note: I know you like TA-3, and I do see its good points, it's just that I don't personally like the kind of unit TA-3 produces. Kind of like how I don't like using armors, except I like TA-3 a lot better than I like armors. TA is the skill I see and go 'hey, this might be alright for an AA unit---not main team good, but I won't mind it in a base set.' Armor movement, on the other hand, pretty much instantly puts a character into 'I'm only using you if there's literally no other choice' tier.

 

That is:

TA-3 makes Henry better at being Henry, but it doesn't make Henry better at being a good unit than, say, CC makes Reinhardt better at being a completely bonkers unit.

 

To put it another way, I like my units to be completely bonkers in every role*, rather than merely bonkers in their own role.

*Which, incidentally, is completely antithetical to a healthy meta game. People like Reinhardt are the bane of competitive games.

 

In a way, this is the checks vs. counters problem. A hard enough check is a counter---Vantage Rein is technically only a check to other Reinhardts, since he does need setup and support to start the Vantage pain train, unless you give him Deflect Magic, but Vantage Rein can nonethless walk into a deathball of Reinhardts and end up the last one standing. He's basically so good as a check that he's indistinguishable to a counter once you give him enough support.

TA-3 is a skill that makes counters---that is, it makes a unit exceedingly good against a subset of the cast. Whereas DC and CC are skills that make checks---now your Dorcas/Takumi/Hector/Reinhardt can smack the other 50% of the cast on defense it couldn't before, which, combined with the 50% you could smack naturally, makes you able to smack 100%* of the cast on defense.

*Barring sweep effects and the like, of course, but you get the point.

 

This is more a matter of how we value skills than anything else, I think. I like 'red-mage' units, that do a bit of everything. Like, even if Rein wasn't overpowered, I'd probably still like him, because he has this nice bundle of team support (Cav Buff access and the mobility to give buffs without hindering his own unit-turn), player phase offenses, and enemy phase (whether in terms of sheer tanking ability, with something like Fury 3, Breakers, or Distant/Close Defense, or counter-kill ability).

 

Like, if Reinhardt was sufficiently weak, my next 'go-to' character would be Camus*:

Good player phase.

Good enemy phase.

Good mobility.

Good support ability. (Which tends to depend a lot on mobility.)

 

*Well it'd probably be Leo, honestly speaking, but let's pretend tomes aren't completely overpowered for a moment.

 

I don't mind dragging people with TA-3 around, but it'll usually be for other reasons than their ability to TA-3 things to death. (It'll be because they're Auzra, i.e. dancers. Or because they're fighting a specific enemy---PvE or Arena Assault, where I can check the enemy beforehand.)

 

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

The fact that it does explode to any Brave weapon is a huge problem. 80/80 bulk for a single hit is great, but 40/40 bulk for two hits is not great.

The concept of HP as bulk is easier to compare to Def and Res if you look at HP in terms of Def and Res and not Def and Res in terms of HP. 1 HP is exactly equivalent to 1 point of Def and 1 point of Res the first time you are attacked and 0 points of Def and 0 points of Res after that. That is the exact equivalence between HP and the defensive buffers if you don't need to account for damage reduction skills and healing. The more hits a unit is intended to take, the less each point of HP is worth to it.

I know hp = [1 / x] def and res, where x is the number of hits a unit's expected to take before being healed (lets pretend all heals are full heals to simplify this). The problem is that the value of hp is extremely volatile, not just based on x, but things that modify the equation.

Urvan, the Deflect Seals, defensive skills, and Divine Tyrfing all change the equation, and drastically at that.  Urvan is total bonkers in that it changes the equation to hp = [1 / (.8 + .2x)], at least for combats where Ike doesn't attack in between, same for deflects. Tyrfing changes the equation to hp = 1 / (x - .5), and so on. These are huge changes, so huge that the 80/80 guy would probably gladly give up the 3 Atk or 5 Hp or quick pulse seal or whatever to run a Deflect S seal it cares about (probably Deflect Missile, because melees are easier to remove safely on player phase, and Deflect Magic is basically 'Deflect Reinhardt*').

*Yeah, Olwen technically exists, but there's actually a pretty good chance 80/0/0 bulk can survive her.

 

Hp = 1 BST and 1 Def/Res = 1 Hp is just an arbitrary choice, to get more precise we'd actually have to look at a unit in question---or at least the type of build in question. TA-3 builds value Hp less because they're hard counters, whereas my units tend to like hp more because I tend to run checks over counters.

 

I mean, I guess we can hammer out stat weights for all build types, but that feels more like formalized Encylopedia of All Builds post kind of thing than a casual discussion like this. (That is, we'd go make a huge ass post and carefully analyze whatever unit build we feel like analyzing: TA-3 Raven, DB 3 Brave Weapon, DC, Steady Breath, Wrath, QP, Bonfire, whatever, and giving stat weights for each of those. TA-3 Raven wouldn't value hp much, because you can just get more def and res. DB-3 probably doesn't even care, because people are supposed to die before they can counter. The DC build probably values hp a lot, since it wants to survive one hit and then counter-kill for lethal.)

[Ice Dragon]

21 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

The problem is that units with high def and res (or at least acceptable def and res) are far rarer than units with high def but no res, and vice versa.

That's not a problem because Distant Counter only really needs one or the other and Triangle Adept allows you to fake having both as long as the lower of your Def and Res is at least half decent.

I also honestly have no idea what you're trying to segue into after that. I think you're rambling again and forgetting what the discussion is about. And if you aren't rambling, you've at least forgotten to tie it back into the discussion.

 

35 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

These are huge changes,

Not really. You can accurately approximate Deflect skills by counting all consecutive hits as 1 attack that deals 20% more damage since Brave weapons are the most common form of consecutive attack. All other sources, namely Desperation and the inability to counterattack, are basically extenuating circumstances that should have been avoided in the first place.

 

34 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

I mean, I guess we can hammer out stat weights for all build types,

There's a reason every stat is worth 1 point at baseline. And if you think it should not be worth 1 in a particular situation, you present your arguments why you think it shouldn't for that situation.

[mampfoid]

@KongDude: Good luck! Seems everything is set, only the credit card is missing. 

9 hours ago, bethany81707 said:

She's now a fairly high-scoring machine. She also has an AoE inherited if I need the bump.

Looks great. You are ahead of me, I'm still shy of spending my last 20k feathers on CD3, because I will be probably out of orbs pulling a bonus unit for next arena season. 

[DehNutCase]

Just now, Ice Dragon said:

There's a reason every stat is worth 1 point at baseline. And if you think it should not be worth 1 in a particular situation, you present your arguments why you think it shouldn't for that situation.

If that were true Reinhardt should be rated as one of the worst units in the game, being a cavalry, mage, brave weapon user, and thus the lowest stats in the game. : /

The reasons his stats are more valuable than everyone else is:

Cavalry (his stats can be in more places to do things). Brave Weapon. Ranged (same reason as cavalry). No speed (oddly enough, all your other stats get better the lower speed gets, barring Atk, because you're getting doubled all the time). High Atk (You don't need a lot of bulk if everyone melts in a single hit---this double dips into ranged and cavalry again, because it means you can nuke the guys that kill you before they get to nuke you). -blade access (stats matter more when you can get even more of it, and he starts with a lot of Atk already).

 

But how would we even weigh him? You can say that Atk = 2 BST because he has a brave weapon, but then why does the swap to -blade not actually hurt him too much in terms of offenses?

4 Atk (from 13 - 9) + 24 = 28, which is nowhere near enough to compensate for the 2x multiplier on Atk.

Let's say Rein had 50 Atk to begin with, and 23 speed. Is the 22 BST difference made up for by the mere 5 spd increase from dropping Dire Thunder, so 5 spd = 22 Atk?

That makes his 23 speed worth 23/5 * 22 = 101 BST, somehow. (This is actually all speed's fault, to be honest, it's one of those stats that are very valuable near the middle, and drop off sharply are you approach the very high and very lows.)

 

And even looking at skills that are simple to value like L&D and Swift Sparrow makes an issue. L&D is BST neutral, yet it's far better, even when only attacking, than Swift Sparrow, which is +8 BST. Is defense and res worth .2 BST, then?

+5/+5/-5/-5 beating +4/+4 means that +1/+1/-5/-5 = +0/+0, for the two skills to be equal, def and res are worth, at most, .2 BST.

(But we know they're not because =Camus actually has the same matchup numbers as +Atk Peri with the L&D Brave Lance build, because he can take Luna thanks to his bulk whereas Peri has to take escutcheon to not die.)

 

Stat weights are a god damn mess.

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

Not really. You can accurately approximate Deflect skills by counting all consecutive hits as 1 attack that deals 20% more damage since Brave weapons are the most common form of consecutive attack. All other sources, namely Desperation and the inability to counterattack, are basically extenuating circumstances that should have been avoided in the first place.

The inability to counter attack is far more common than braves, I think, especially considering most units simply can't counter 50% of units. (If a Firesweep weapon had Urvan's effect it'd be hilarious. And B!Ike's a good tank mostly because he can't counter ranged units, so they all have to fight through his Urvan---that and melee units get wrecked by his defense stat.)

Also, approximating deflect skills by consecutive attack doing 20% damage is exactly what hp = [1/(.8 + .2x)] does. My problem isn't that it's hard to calculate, it's that it's hard to determine what value we should place on hp because of that formula. I usually go with 1 hp = .86 def/res because that's how good 1 hp is for tanking anything ranged for a single round, but there're also cases of Ike needing to tank, say, B!Lyn being danced, and his high defense matters a lot more (and his low res means that he can't actually tank Reinhardt twice).

31 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

That's not a problem because Distant Counter only really needs one or the other and Triangle Adept allows you to fake having both as long as the lower of your Def and Res is at least half decent.

I also honestly have no idea what you're trying to segue into after that. I think you're rambling again and forgetting what the discussion is about. And if you aren't rambling, you've at least forgotten to tie it back into the discussion.

I mean, I do like to ramble, and I think I did forget the discussion's main point at this point.

If we're still talking about TA-3 and it's relation to BST and DC/CC, my issue with the skill is that the counter skills, for me, are general skills, that is, skills that help you check more people, whereas TA-3 is a skill that increases the units you counter while decreasing the units you check, a specialist skill.

The combination means that you end up with a unit that counters around 2x as many units as a normal TA-3 unit, but doesn't actually check a lot of units. Whereas I'd much rather have a unit that checked as many units as possible, like Reinhardt, who already checked the most of the cast on offense. CC's advantage is that he turns those units he checked on offense into units he checked on defense.

And a hard enough check is a counter---Vantage Rein basically counters 80% of the cast, because that's the amount of the cast he Vantage sweeps. Vantage, in this case, is a 'win-more' skill, it turns units Reinhardt checks into units Reinhardt counters. His QR CC set does counter-kill more people on the first round (because being doubled by -blade Reinhardt isn't fun), but nabbing another 10% or so when you kill 80% already is kind of a bad trade, especially when Vantage turns those 80% of checked units into 80% of countered units.

 

In terms of BST, this is because Vantage gives literally infinite bulk as long as certain conditions are met: 75% hp or less, can counter, can OHKO. Fortunately, Reinhardt can reasonably survive one hit from 90% or so of the cast, and gets to OHKO about 80% or so.

[bethany81707]

19 minutes ago, mampfoid said:

Looks great. You are ahead of me, I'm still shy of spending my last 20k feathers on CD3, because I will be probably out of orbs pulling a bonus unit for next arena season. 

Well, she is my S-Support... and also an Arena Core unit. I give her a tad more priority than your "probably smarter" approach. (On the subject of bonus units, I think my Olivia has enough Value to be used as a bonus unit on her rotation).

But still, 50 defence against melees. You'd think she'd trivialise Michalis's melee-only BHB on that alone. I'll give her Hinoka and Caeda on my next attempt, most likely...