Baldrick Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 Refines should go to the units that need them the most. Among the launch units without a refine, staff units are just about the last units that need one, because of their unique utility and the quality of inheritable staves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 Only staffy I could really see wanting a refine would be Azama, as his rather distinct personal skill is completely absent in Heroes (unless Pain is meant to be it). Of course I'd much rather see it as a Skill, but for some reason giving old units new skills is considered a complete impossibility for IS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hilda Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 6 hours ago, Baldrick said: Refines should go to the units that need them the most. Among the launch units without a refine, staff units are just about the last units that need one, because of their unique utility and the quality of inheritable staves. that is not true. For very offensiv Stave units like Veronica B!Fjorm B!Camilla yes, for others? Azama needs a unique staff with utility as does Wrys and other Stave units that dont reach the Offensiv potential of Fjorm Camilla etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Dragon Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 5 hours ago, Hilda said: that is not true. For very offensiv Stave units like Veronica B!Fjorm B!Camilla yes, for others? Azama needs a unique staff with utility as does Wrys and other Stave units that dont reach the Offensiv potential of Fjorm Camilla etc. Staff units as a class aren't intended to be offensive units. The ones that are are the exception, not the rule. There's a reason staves deal half damage by default and need a skill to remove that effect. You're trying to use a Phillips-head screwdriver to remove a flat-head screw and then complaining to the manufacturer that your screwdriver should be able to shapeshift to fit the screw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 7 hours ago, Hilda said: that is not true. For very offensiv Stave units like Veronica B!Fjorm B!Camilla yes, for others? Azama needs a unique staff with utility as does Wrys and other Stave units that dont reach the Offensiv potential of Fjorm Camilla etc. Asama and Wrys can take Gravity+ and have comparable utility, just missing out on raw stats. They’re in a better position than units like Rebecca, Hawkeye and Olivia who can’t even emulate the utility of Legend Alm, Surtr, and Legend Azura. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Dragon Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 33 minutes ago, Baldrick said: Asama and Wrys can take Gravity+ and have comparable utility, just missing out on raw stats. They’re in a better position than units like Rebecca, Hawkeye and Olivia who can’t even emulate the utility of Legend Alm, Surtr, and Legend Azura. Forget even comparing Rebecca and Hawkeye with Alm and Surtr. Rebecca can't even manage to compare to Takumi or Innes, and Hawkeye can't compare to Sheena or Helbindi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulously Olivier Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Ice Dragon said: Staff units as a class aren't intended to be offensive units. The ones that are are the exception, not the rule. There's a reason staves deal half damage by default and need a skill to remove that effect. You're trying to use a Phillips-head screwdriver to remove a flat-head screw and then complaining to the manufacturer that your screwdriver should be able to shapeshift to fit the screw. That hasn't been true for a long, long time. If you look at the healers with poor offensive stat spreads, they are all old units. In other words, the healer role has shifted to an offensive utility role, as healing alone is not and was not a viable standalone strength in this game.  It's more like the manufacturer of your furniture didn't even use screws, but rather held your table together with duct tape and used chewing gum. Edited September 25, 2019 by Etheus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Etheus said:  In other words, the healer role has shifted to an offensive utility role, Healers have always been offensive utility. Though they had it tough before Dazzling was commonly available. It's more like the manufacturer of your furniture didn't even use screws, but rather held your table together with duct tape and used chewing gum.  Don’t underestimate Pain/Gravity and Savage Blow spam. Even many launch units with a refine would kill for access to that combo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 2 hours ago, Etheus said: That hasn't been true for a long, long time. If you look at the healers with poor offensive stat spreads, they are all old units. In other words, the healer role has shifted to an offensive utility role, as healing alone is not and was not a viable standalone strength in this game.  It's more like the manufacturer of your furniture didn't even use screws, but rather held your table together with duct tape and used chewing gum.  43 minutes ago, Baldrick said:  Don’t underestimate Pain/Gravity and Savage Blow spam. Even many launch units with a refine would kill for access to that combo. Yeah Healer is in such a good position now that any healer is considered instant win in AA, something you can't say for majority of units, even those that are considered top tier on their respective class Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Dragon Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 19 hours ago, Etheus said: That hasn't been true for a long, long time. If you look at the healers with poor offensive stat spreads, they are all old units. In other words, the healer role has shifted to an offensive utility role, as healing alone is not and was not a viable standalone strength in this game. Ethlin has 28/34 offenses. Bruno has 30/24 offenses. Brady has 33/32 offenses. None of these are considered good offensive stat spreads by any stretch of the imagination. "Offensive utility" has been the role of staves for as long as "+" staves have existed. The point of staves is not to heal and not to kill outright, but to debuff and chip, as I've said in almost every post I've made on this subject in the past few days. There are a few staff units that are capable of being built to kill outright, but those are few and far in between. Lumping all staves as "intended for combat" based on the existence of a few units that can be built for the role is like lumping all beasts as "intended for support" based on Kaden's and Mordecai's exceptional support capabilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troykv Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 The units intented for Support are Healers and Dancers; everyone else is intented for combat. If you can do the other thing it's mostly a bonus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redlight Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 @AnacybeleFreddy refine Also Virion, Hawkeye and Lute. Frederick I imagine could get something similar to Tibarn's weapon or just straight up be a prf brave axe. Hawkeye will get an underwhelming weapon for sure. I just have a feeling. Slaying with Bracing Stance Lute will get Desperation or something built into her tome. Virion... Hmm. Maybe Spectral Blow with Bold Fighter as a refine. Lol no. They really need to go all out with him. Like really toss rulebooks aside and salvage him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 8 minutes ago, redlight said: @AnacybeleFreddy refine Also Virion, Hawkeye and Lute. Frederick I imagine could get something similar to Tibarn's weapon or just straight up be a prf brave axe. Hawkeye will get an underwhelming weapon for sure. I just have a feeling. Slaying with Bracing Stance Lute will get Desperation or something built into her tome. Virion... Hmm. Maybe Spectral Blow with Bold Fighter as a refine. Lol no. They really need to go all out with him. Like really toss rulebooks aside and salvage him.  Funny enough historically Virion was actually the best unit out of this four. Refine meta really hurts him and things just got worse since then  Not sure what direction they will take Lute. Blizzard Route? I feel Bracing Slaying combo is lowkey nice. Something like uh, Slaying + Guard + stance on an infantry Axe with Hawkeye Statsline is probably pretty cool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 4 minutes ago, redlight said: Freddy refine YES I JUST SAW. AT LAST AT LAST AT LAST!! AND IT'S HIS WARRIORS WEAPON JUST LIKE I WANTED!! I don't care if I have to change my whole current set on him to make it work, I WILL IF IT MAKES MY FREDDY BEAR GREATER! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenomata Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 Well then, let's theorize... Freddy is in the air completely. Prf Hammer? Slaying Weapon? Brave weapon? Some form of Close Def or Sturdy Stance? I don't know at all, besides Anacy I've never seen many other Fredericks out in the world (not discounting that there are other Freddys out there, but if there are then where the hell are they?). Virion... it's impossible to tell. Giving him a Silver Bow means that he has free reign to do whatever the hell he wants. Heck, he could have the first ever weapon to have Close Counter built into it, not the pseudo-CC refines previously seen on Julia and Boey. I'd like to see him get something awesomly amazing, I would. Virion isn't a bad dude, he's just the most Meh archer in the game right now. But he's also the first unit we ever summon, so I really can't imagine them wanting to give him anything too amazing, even if they have given the other Starter units some neat toys. Hawkeye is getting a Slaying weapon of course. Given his more defensive nature, I could see him getting a way to make the lives of attacking enemies harder. Nothing as nifty as Beruka's Axe or OP as Urvan though. Lute? Something Speed based. I don't know what, because we've seen a number of speed-based refines already, but it'll be Speed based. sure she could get Atk/Def Ploy for the full gambit, but that'd be boring. No, I wanna see her get the effects of Gigaxcalbur or a Spd-measring version of Foxkit Fang or Flashing Blade, maybe also an upgrade to the base effect that adds Sabotage Spd on top of Spd Ploy to really get the debuffs going. I'm guessing, but I just know it'll be Spd based. Everything about Weirding Tome is Spd based, after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humanoid Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 Decent selection. Hawkeye wasn't my first 5* unit (Maria was), but he was my first non-healer one. I haven't really done anything with him since, but I'm open to the idea. DC would be great with his statline, even if it's conditional like Saber's. His main competition for a spot is not Raven, who I've been considering separately, but Fae. I do have a spare DC sitting on an unused Effie, but it'll take some convincing for me to part with it. I'm also open to the idea of merging Freddy, since Titania got Titaniaed. There's a small amount of redundancy in that I have Cecilia done for the green horse slot, but they have fairly minimal overlap. Virion is a live option too since I currently don't have a single +10 grey unit. Klein was always leading the race however, so Virion's weapon would need to be quite good to come close to Klein's. Lute is eh, I'm always reluctant to spend Dew on 5* locked units. But I do have one courtesy of a pitybreaker on the last Hero Fest, so we'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diovani Bressan Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 @Anacybele Congrats! You favorite unit will receive a Prf Weapon! I can see it keeping the Hammer effect (effective against Armored), but I am not sure about the refinement effect... Fred's Def is pretty good, so a "Great Flame" effect, that if unit's Def is higher than foe's Def, foe cannot do a follow-up attack, would be something good for a slow unit like him. Anyway, I am curious about Hawkeye. I hope he gets something good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulously Olivier Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 I am extremely happy about this refine set. Hawkeye has been at the top of my refine list since the beginning, and Virion is one of my favorite archers. And Frederick's undersaturated role makes him an exciting refine too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nébulya Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 I wonder when Oliver or Narcian will have refine..Especially Narcian actually :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diovani Bressan Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 1 hour ago, Metakirby said: I wonder when Oliver or Narcian will have refine..Especially Narcian actually 😕 Since Oliver is a Book 2 unit, it may take a while. and we need more GHB refinements. Narcian and Ursula are good candidates. From the Book 1 GHB, I want a refinement for Xander, but I am not sure when or if it will happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingle Jangle Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 (edited) I might be interested in  Lute and Frederick's refines depending on what they have. The cyl units having such amazing refines makes this group a tough act to follow I'm more interested in gen 2 characters getting some love. Edited September 27, 2019 by Jingle Jangle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 3 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said: Congrats! You favorite unit will receive a Prf Weapon! Well no duh now. lol 😛 But thanks! 6 hours ago, Xenomata said: Freddy is in the air completely. Prf Hammer? Slaying Weapon? Brave weapon? Some form of Close Def or Sturdy Stance? I don't know at all, besides Anacy I've never seen many other Fredericks out in the world (not discounting that there are other Freddys out there, but if there are then where the hell are they?). There's a couple others besides me in the SF 5 star +10 thread here for Frederick, if you want to check them out, but yeah, not many Fredericks are out there in general mainly because green tome cavs seem to be favored over axe cavs. But of those I have seen, the skillsets do vary, so I agree, Freddy's up in the air for what he'll get. xP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulously Olivier Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 Hawkeye: hoping for Slaying, Dragon Slaying, and Bracing Stance 2.  Virion: hoping for Slaying + Aversa's Night debuff.  Frederick: hoping for Slaying + Sturdy Impact (or at least Sturdy Blow). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 2 hours ago, Metakirby said: I wonder when Oliver or Narcian will have refine..Especially Narcian actually 😕 Narcian should get a Rune Sword like he actually uses in game >.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 4 minutes ago, Etheus said: Frederick: hoping for Slaying + Sturdy Impact (or at least Sturdy Blow). I'd prefer Sturdy Stance over Sturdy Blow. But Sturdy Impact would be nice too! And just for reference to show people that as I'd said, this is in fact Freddy's axe from FE Warriors! I'M SO HAPPY CAUSE I LOVE THIS AXE AND I REALLY WANTED IT IN HEROES! 😄 I remember being so amazed that Koei made Frederick such a beautiful looking axe and now I get to use it in Heroes too! I really like the markings and shape! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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