General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Troykv]

On 5/11/2020 at 10:45 PM, XRay said:

Cordelia's exclusive Weapon with special Refine is only really good on a slow Brave build. It does not synergize well with Desperation since there is only a small HP range where both will work, and it does not work with Wings of Mercy Dancers/Singers. You could go for a fast Brave build for damage output using Spd Refine so it synergizes with Desperation and Wings of Mercy, but I think most players rather use ranged units for damage output instead.

Melee nukes' niche over ranged nukes is their ability to Galeforce, and Slaying Lance is better than Cordelia's Lance for that purpose.

Firesweep melee fliers feels almost like using ranged units, and it is pretty decent on a map with lots of obstacles and land enemies, although it is less powerful if there are not as many obstacles or if the enemies are mostly fliers. I still rather use Firesweep Bow, but for players on a budget, Firesweep L is so much cheaper.

Yeah, overall Cordelia's lance is mostly an improvement over the Brave Lance+ set (which probably is still used for some considering it's part of her base kit).

[Hilda]

With the powercreep since 1 year going up i think its high time to give Gem weapons, Brave Weapons and Raventomes a Refine, but hold on! Not the Regular refines, just to spice things up.

Brave Weapons+ (melee) can be reforged and gain the following effects (there is no mulitpath):
Their Might goes from 8 to 10 and the Spd Penalty is reduced to -3 no
Brave Bows stay at 7 might their Spd just gets reduced to -3 penalty and they gain +2 HP

Gem Weapons (Might 12)can pick from the following refines: 4 choices
Same base effect but Might at 15 and +5 HP or +3 to any othe rstat
Same base effect, Mt12 but with Null-Follow up
Same base effect, Mt12 but they take 80% reduced damage from AoE specials and Regular Specials they have Triangle advantage over
Same base effect, Mt12 but Brash assault (active at all times as long as the opponent can counter)

Raventomes Mt11: 4 choices
Same base effect but, Mt 12 and +3 HP or +2 to any other stat
same base effect, Mt 11 and Null-C-Disrupt
same base effect, Mt 11 and Guard
same base effect, Mt 11 and Triangle Adept

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Hilda said:

Brave Bows stay at 7 might their Spd just gets reduced to -3 penalty and they gain +2 HP

I do not think Spd+2 is worth the hassle of HP+2. The Spd penalty is not too big of a deal for fast Brave units, and slow Brave units do not care about Spd, but that 2 HP is brutal for Player Phase units in general who want to maintain low HP. I would just do Brave Bow Refinement with 8 Mt, Spd-4, and no HP boost so it has something for both slow Brave archers and fast Brave archers.

Edited May 17, 2020 by XRay

[eclipse]

Setsuna's lack of PRF is really weird IMO.  I'm guessing she'll get something akin to Gaius, since they share similar issues.  I'm not sure what Clarisse would want other than "way more offensive stats".

[XRay]

38 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Setsuna's lack of PRF is really weird IMO.  I'm guessing she'll get something akin to Gaius, since they share similar issues.  I'm not sure what Clarisse would want other than "way more offensive stats".

I want something like a Brave Bow with Moonbow Refinement for Setsuna. For Clarisse, I want a Smoke Bow with Blizzard effect and the Refinement can be Blade effect.

[Ice Dragon]

3 hours ago, XRay said:

I want something like a Brave Bow with Moonbow Refinement for Setsuna. For Clarisse, I want a Smoke Bow with Blizzard effect and the Refinement can be Blade effect.

Go a few levels up from her Assassin Bow and give it guaranteed follow-up against bows, prevents follow-up from bows, Null Follow-Up against bows, Null C-Disrupt against bows, effective damage against bows, 50% damage reduction from bows, 80% AoE Special damage reduction from bows, Vantage against bows, nullifies enemy changes to attack priority against bows (i.e. Hardy Bearing minus the demerit), weapon triangle advantage against bows, +1 Special charge rate against bows, -1 Special charge rate from bows, and nullifies changes to Special charge rate from opponent's skills if opponent has a bow.

Regardless of color.

[MagicCanonBalls]

5 hours ago, eclipse said:

Setsuna's lack of PRF is really weird IMO.  I'm guessing she'll get something akin to Gaius, since they share similar issues.  I'm not sure what Clarisse would want other than "way more offensive stats".

Clarisse probably would get some debuff refine to fit her assassin theme, like Katarina's refine and Legion's Axe.

5 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Go a few levels up from her Assassin Bow and give it guaranteed follow-up against bows, prevents follow-up from bows, Null Follow-Up against bows, Null C-Disrupt against bows, effective damage against bows, 50% damage reduction from bows, 80% AoE Special damage reduction from bows, Vantage against bows, nullifies enemy changes to attack priority against bows (i.e. Hardy Bearing minus the demerit), weapon triangle advantage against bows, +1 Special charge rate against bows, -1 Special charge rate from bows, and nullifies changes to Special charge rate from opponent's skills if opponent has a bow.

Regardless of color.

Did bow hurt you?

[XRay]

5 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Go a few levels up from her Assassin Bow and give it guaranteed follow-up against bows, prevents follow-up from bows, Null Follow-Up against bows, Null C-Disrupt against bows, effective damage against bows, 50% damage reduction from bows, 80% AoE Special damage reduction from bows, Vantage against bows, nullifies enemy changes to attack priority against bows (i.e. Hardy Bearing minus the demerit), weapon triangle advantage against bows, +1 Special charge rate against bows, -1 Special charge rate from bows, and nullifies changes to Special charge rate from opponent's skills if opponent has a bow.

Regardless of color.

Actually, I would not mind that. Some bow users are a pain in the ass to deal with.

Just now, MagicCanonBalls said:

Did bow hurt you?

To me, yes. I think it was a few weeks ago that I got extremely frustrated with Chrom: Crowned Exalt in Arena Assault, and Lucina: Glorious Archer and a few other archers with Spendthrift Bow to a lesser extent.

[Kaden]

4 hours ago, XRay said:

For Clarisse, I want a Smoke Bow with Blizzard effect and the Refinement can be Blade effect.

Smoke Dagger with Pulse Smoke as the base effect and inverse Niu and as the unique refinement. Maybe Deathly Dagger as well...

Clarisse's Real Bow: "14 Mt. Effective against flying foes. After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Atk/Spd/Def/Res-5 and Special cooldown count+1 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target after combat. (No effect on Special cooldown counts already at maximum.) [Unique] Adds 50% of total penalties on foe to unit's Atk/Spd/Def/Res during combat. [Maybe] After combat, if unit attacked, deals 10 damage to target and foes within 2 spaces of target."

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Go a few levels up from her Assassin Bow and give it guaranteed follow-up against bows, prevents follow-up from bows, Null Follow-Up against bows, Null C-Disrupt against bows, effective damage against bows, 50% damage reduction from bows, 80% AoE Special damage reduction from bows, Vantage against bows, nullifies enemy changes to attack priority against bows (i.e. Hardy Bearing minus the demerit), weapon triangle advantage against bows, +1 Special charge rate against bows, -1 Special charge rate from bows, and nullifies changes to Special charge rate from opponent's skills if opponent has a bow.

Regardless of color.

Let's add in daggers and staffs too. So, Bow-Dagger-Staff-Destroyer as the base effect and whatever as the unique refinement.

That said, it would be interesting if her personal bow were to have an upgraded effect of Assassin's Bow that works on all daggers instead of only colorless daggers. Add in bows and staffs because why not and have Null Follow-Up or an effect that prevents the -breaker effects from working as well because -breakers being nullified by Null Follow-Up itself is annoying.

[Ice Dragon]

25 minutes ago, MagicCanonBalls said:

Did bow hurt you?

No, but I knew that @XRay would appreciate my idea.

 

10 minutes ago, Kaden said:

Let's add in daggers and staffs too. So, Bow-Dagger-Staff-Destroyer as the base effect and whatever as the unique refinement.

That said, it would be interesting if her personal bow were to have an upgraded effect of Assassin's Bow that works on all daggers instead of only colorless daggers. Add in bows and staffs because why not and have Null Follow-Up or an effect that prevents the -breaker effects from working as well because -breakers being nullified by Null Follow-Up itself is annoying.

Right, I mixed up Assassin Bow with Setsuna's default Bowbreaker skill. But yeah, bows, daggers, and staves sounds good, too.

The main problem with Weaponbreaker skills right now (and Assassin Bow by extension) is the fact that Null Follow-Up renders it completely worthless. While Null Follow-Up isn't particularly common on anything other than swords and Legendary Alm, it's common on Legendary Alm and Legendary Alm is common and Legendary Alm is easily the most threatening bow unit in the game right now and therefore would be the best unit to use Bowbreaker against if it weren't for the fact that Null Follow-Up is common on him.

So if I can amend my idea for Setsuna's weapon, I'd also add "inflicts -100 Spd in combat to foe" to the effect because that's currently the only possible way to effectively get a Weaponbreaker effect against a unit with Null Follow-Up.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Ice Dragon

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

No, but I knew that @XRay would appreciate my idea.

 

Right, I mixed up Assassin Bow with Setsuna's default Bowbreaker skill. But yeah, bows, daggers, and staves sounds good, too.

The main problem with Weaponbreaker skills right now (and Assassin Bow by extension) is the fact that Null Follow-Up renders it completely worthless. While Null Follow-Up isn't particularly common on anything other than swords and Legendary Alm, it's common on Legendary Alm and Legendary Alm is common and Legendary Alm is easily the most threatening bow unit in the game right now and therefore would be the best unit to use Bowbreaker against if it weren't for the fact that Null Follow-Up is common on him.

So if I can amend my idea for Setsuna's weapon, I'd also add "inflicts -100 Spd in combat to foe" to the effect because that's currently the only possible way to effectively get a Weaponbreaker effect against a unit with Null Follow-Up.

Breaker skills could get an upgrade that nulls Null Follow-Up. Although that could risk making Null Follow-Up useless. Then again stuff like Quick Riposte and Bold Fighter are still common up that Null Follow Up would have some use.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Jotari

[Diovani Bressan]

Outside Nowi and Xander, since they are the ones I have at +10 that I want a refinement... I want Donnel to get a Prf weapon. Give the boy a pitchfork, IntSys!

If I am not wrong, from Book 1, the non seasonal heroes that don't have a refinement are:

• Azama (1)
• Azura
• Cecilia
• Clarine (1)
• Corrin (Female)
• Donnel
• Draug
• Effie
• Fae
• Lissa (1)
• Maria (1)
• Nowi
• Olivia
• Ryoma (3) (4)
• Sakura (1)
• Serra (1)
• Setsuna
• Wrys (1)
• Lachesis
• Olwen (3)
• Reinhardt (3)
• Lucius (1)
• Ninian
• Priscilla (1)
• Ike (4)
• Mist (1)
• Xander (2) (3)
• Genny (1)
• Camus (2) (3) (4)
• Legion (2)
• Clarisse (2)
• Berkut (2)
• Valter (2) (3)
• Black Knight (2) (3) (4)
• Arvis (2) (3)
• Ayra (3)
• Arden (2)
• Dorcas (3)
• Joshua (2) (3)

(1) Staff units;
(2) GHB or TT units;
(3) Units that have a Prf Weapon but no refinement;
(4) Units that share Prf weapons with others units released in Book 2 forward.

I am still curious about staff units, since none of them got a prf refinement yet. Last year we got CYL 1 refinements in September... Do you think it's possible for this to happen this year as well, with CYL 2? They are doing 1 Book 2 per month, so for CYL 2 would be 4 Book 2 heroes in the same month, not to mention it could have the first Staff refinement with Brave Veronica, if we don't get any staff refinement until there.

I am curious about Legion, Clarisse and Berkut, since they have inheritable weapons that have their names on it. 

Ryoma, Ike, Camus and Black Knight are in a interesting position... since they all share weapons if others heroes that were released during Book 2. Would be weird the Book 1 versions having the refinement, while the Book 2 versions don't. And two of these (Ryoma and Ike), they share weapons with Legendary Heroes. We didn't have any Legendary Hero refinement yet.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Diovani Bressan

[Ice Dragon]

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

Breaker skills could get an upgrade that nulls Null Follow-Up. Although that could risk making Null Follow-Up useless. Then again stuff like Quick Riposte and Bold Fighter are still common up that Null Follow Up would have some use.

Weaponbreakers have a small enough niche that they certainly won't make Null Follow-Up useless. However, nullifying a Null skill would start a bad precedent of nullifying skills that nullify your skill, which is not a good rabbit hole to go down, hence why I think Weaponbreakers should instead significantly reduce the opponent's stats in combat, somewhere on the order of 10 or even 20 points, and possibly also nullify bonuses on the opponent and penalties on the unit.

 

3 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

I am still curious about staff units, since none of them got a prf refinement yet.

I still doubt that staves will get their own exclusive weapons.

Being forced to choose between a unique refine and the common staff refines is an awful situation since staves rely on having both Wrathful Staff and Dazzling Staff in order to function offensively. You can realistically drop Wrathful Staff only on pure support units and Dazzling Staff only on Winter Eirika. This means that in order to be at all worth it, the staff would either need one or the other built into the weapon or need to not have a unique refine effect.

The other issue is the fact that an exclusive weapon would need to compete at the same level as Gravity+, Pain+, Panic+, or Melancholy+ in order to be worth using. Sanngridr manages to pull this off in the simplest way possible, but that's hardly inspiring for future ideas.

 

3 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Ryoma, Ike, Camus and Black Knight are in a interesting position... since they all share weapons if others heroes that were released during Book 2. Would be weird the Book 1 versions having the refinement, while the Book 2 versions don't. And two of these (Ryoma and Ike), they share weapons with Legendary Heroes. We didn't have any Legendary Hero refinement yet.

It would be functionally impossible to force the later units to not have a refine as refines are applied to the weapon skill and not to the unit.

I think it's only a matter of time before the older Legendary Heroes start to get refines for their weapons. While those units still remain viable, they no longer really live up to their status in light of more recent units.

[Othin]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Weaponbreakers have a small enough niche that they certainly won't make Null Follow-Up useless. However, nullifying a Null skill would start a bad precedent of nullifying skills that nullify your skill, which is not a good rabbit hole to go down, hence why I think Weaponbreakers should instead significantly reduce the opponent's stats in combat, somewhere on the order of 10 or even 20 points, and possibly also nullify bonuses on the opponent and penalties on the unit.

 

I still doubt that staves will get their own exclusive weapons.

Being forced to choose between a unique refine and the common staff refines is an awful situation since staves rely on having both Wrathful Staff and Dazzling Staff in order to function offensively. You can realistically drop Wrathful Staff only on pure support units and Dazzling Staff only on Winter Eirika. This means that in order to be at all worth it, the staff would either need one or the other built into the weapon or need to not have a unique refine effect.

The other issue is the fact that an exclusive weapon would need to compete at the same level as Gravity+, Pain+, Panic+, or Melancholy+ in order to be worth using. Sanngridr manages to pull this off in the simplest way possible, but that's hardly inspiring for future ideas.

 

It would be functionally impossible to force the later units to not have a refine as refines are applied to the weapon skill and not to the unit.

I think it's only a matter of time before the older Legendary Heroes start to get refines for their weapons. While those units still remain viable, they no longer really live up to their status in light of more recent units.

Why have exclusive refines for staffs? They could have the exclusive part be the base effect, with the refine just being a way to get Dazzling or Wrathful onto that weapon. Even if they aren't very competitive, that's fine. 

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Othin said:

Even if they aren't very competitive, that's fine. 

Being not very competitive against inheritable weapons kind of defeats the entire purpose of getting an exclusive weapon in the first place.

 

3 minutes ago, Othin said:

They could have the exclusive part be the base effect, with the refine just being a way to get Dazzling or Wrathful onto that weapon.

I already mentioned that as a possibility:

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

This means that in order to be at all worth it, the staff would either need one or the other built into the weapon or need to not have a unique refine effect.

 

[daisy jane]

Myrrh is Getting a Refine
MYRRH IS GETTING A REFINE.

please, all i ask that this be amazingly good. i'm not even gonna wish anything because i know if i start dreaming i'll just be disappointed but considering all the busted Dragon Breaths they've given most dragons recently - just.. make her more amazing. (i guess the worst case scenario - if it sucks i can refine for def)

[XRay]

15 minutes ago, daisy jane said:

Myrrh is Getting a Refine
MYRRH IS GETTING A REFINE.

please, all i ask that this be amazingly good. i'm not even gonna wish anything because i know if i start dreaming i'll just be disappointed but considering all the busted Dragon Breaths they've given most dragons recently - just.. make her more amazing. (i guess the worst case scenario - if it sucks i can refine for def)

"During combat, inflict Spd -100 on foe." would be pretty nice as a Refinement to stop follow-up attacks from Null Follow-Up users.

[Sayyyaka]

I'm annoyed that they'd give Myrrh a refine before Fae even gets a prf.  Myrrh does deserve one but at the awfully slow pace they do these, and the fact that Fae came out one year before her, I don't like it.  At the very least I hope her refine is really good.  Also while I don't plan on using them I'm happy for Draug and Donnel.

[Hilda]

46 minutes ago, daisy jane said:

Myrrh is Getting a Refine
MYRRH IS GETTING A REFINE.

please, all i ask that this be amazingly good. i'm not even gonna wish anything because i know if i start dreaming i'll just be disappointed but considering all the busted Dragon Breaths they've given most dragons recently - just.. make her more amazing. (i guess the worst case scenario - if it sucks i can refine for def)

all she needs is Iotes Shield, lowering the threshold for the non follow up condition.

or just lower the threshold for the non follow up and add an guaranteed follow up if she meets the condition.

[Kaden]

This is just me, but Draug's Stalwart Sword having effective damage against armors and greenbreaker, -breaker effect against all green units, that cannot be negated by Null Follow-Up or like effects would be nice. Slap on Guard, Svalinn's Shield, or a Killer effect as bonuses.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Kaden

[Humanoid]

I suppose I'll get Myrrh's refine by default. I still use her and her base weapon is still totally fine to be honest, but an upgrade is an upgrade even if it ends up underwhelming.

Donnel might be interesting. I will note that more than three years on, he's still the highest BST lance infantry in the 3-4* pool ...y'know, out of three of them. That's just insane and borderline indefensible.

[Javi Blizz]

I hope Donnel gets a good refine, I have one sitting at 5*+4

[Vicious Sal]

Donnel needs something better than Casa Blanca+, which is his best weapon right now.  

I hope Sheena is next month.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Sayyyaka said:

I'm annoyed that they'd give Myrrh a refine before Fae even gets a prf.  Myrrh does deserve one but at the awfully slow pace they do these, and the fact that Fae came out one year before her, I don't like it.  At the very least I hope her refine is really good.  Also while I don't plan on using them I'm happy for Draug and Donnel.

I agree. It's weird Fae and Nowi haven't gotten one first.

As for what I'm hoping, her weapon deals effective damage to monsters in Sacred Stones, so maybe giving her effective damage against beasts? Though we'd really need more beasts for us to really require a lot of weapons with effective damage against them (and it's just a bit racist). Alternatively she could get Ivaldi and Gelipner's effect to make a through line there, only issue is that they both boost speed which is a bit of a dump stat for her.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Jotari

[Xenomata]

Interesting... Clarisse's Bow is being turned into Sniper's Bow...

Gives me some hope for a cool Legion refine at least.