Serenes Forest's Teehee Thread

[Saint Rubenio]

8 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Thats like saying whats the point in a strategy game being a strategy game. Whats the appeal in a strategy game being the way it is?

Grinding is an achievement, and a way to topple challenges. Just as strategy is a way too outsmart an opponent. Both have clear directions.

I think the difference between the two is that you need to do some thinking to devise a proper strategy (well, in a good strategy game, at least). You need to study the field, the enemies, your own assets, etc. And when you get a good plan going, it's satisfying, because you've found a solution to a challenge. You've cracked the code, so to speak.

Grinding in RPGs just has you pressing A through menus for an hour straight just to be able to pass the wall of stats. It's little more than factory work, from my perspective. A test of endurance and patience, and nothing else. Not really much of an achievement when the only investment you put into it is time. It's repetitive, boring, and oftentimes just a trick the devs use to hide the fact that the game isn't that long.

I'm absolute piss bollocks at explaining myself, but I hope I was able to properly explain my reasoning.

Quote

To answer the question do i enjoy it? Yeah, and I have the playthrough/times to back that up. The whole idea of "growth" is appealing to me. Saying its boring is missing the entire point of the gameplay.

Well, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. I disagree, but hey, it's not like you enjoying grinding is personally hurting me or anything, haha.

Edited July 11, 2021 by Saint Rubenio

[Sooks]

Spoiler

Oh, Agate’s sister is so obviously dead.

HAH I KNEW IT

I’m glad the game let me check the relevant area instead of going “but the plot!” and not letting me enter.

Spoiler

I went to the graveyard and checked the obviously plot important grave that stood alone at the edge of a cliff and the path through the graveyard that was also taller than the others, if that’s not obvious.

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by Sooks

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 hours ago, Armagon said:

In the 90s. Nowadays, if an RPG seriously expects you to grind, then it's probably pretty bad.

Aka gatcha. Where everything is grind that has absolutely no purpose whatsoever, because the game has no real end to work towards, it's an attempt to make grind what fills the empty moments of your day. Why? If a game needs an auto-battle mode to reduce tedium, as many gatchas do, then the grind is truly out of hand. All 

 

1 hour ago, lightcosmo said:

If thats what you believe. I disagree personally.

I've played several Etrian Odysseys on the highest difficulty usually. Barring postgame superbosses, grind isn't necessary. Taking your time mapping out each floor, finishing every quest available at the time to earn the EXP they provide, sticking to one team of five with no reserve characters, that usually suffices to make you strong enough to take on the next boss waiting a stratum's end (not saying it still won't be a challenge, but it'll be doable). And if this is true of an old-fashioned challenging dungeon crawler like EO, then other RPG franchises should by no means require grinding.

 

1 hour ago, lightcosmo said:

Then again im actually willing to put in an hour of effort to do some leveling up. *shrugs*

But it isn't anywhere near the same kind of "effort" as learning a boss's attack patterns, or how to execute a fighting game combo consisting of sixty individual button inputs in short succession. RPG grind develops no skills upon the part of the player themselves, slaughtering 60 Vigents for their scalps with my Ares 90 teaches me nothing at all. 

 

1 hour ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Wait... you like grinding? I mean, i'ts okay if you do, just... I don't get it. Grinding is literally just a waste of time so the devs get to claim their game lasts longer than it really does. If you don't mind me asking, where's the appeal in that?

Watching the numbers go up.

I think at its core, it's the same appeal that explains how the Civilization franchise and its classic "One More Turn..." addiction came to be. Where you start playing for five minutes, and six hours have gone by without you noticing. With every city you settle and develop, every unit you send out to conquer, it feels like you're accomplishing a little bit of something. Each granule of progress makes you hungry for more. It makes you utterly blind to the fact you're staring an electronic screen pressing buttons, you haven't actually made Mongolia your vassal and constructed the Sistine Chapel. Your progress is illusion, your life is showing itself to be devoid of true meaning and value. -Says the person who was having some fun with Vietnam forty-five minutes ago.

Grind is very similar, and I'm usually against it in games, besides my above remarks on gatcha, I find the Disgaea franchise- a grinding paradise to be not for me whatsoever. If I have to chop through 70 fights of ordinary enemies to gain one level that gave me nothing more than like +2 Def in a game where the stat cap is 255, I wouldn't do it.

However, if grinding is provides palpable results quick enough, I might be inclined to do it. Case in point being Dragon Quest XI. Hunting Metal Slimes for massive EXP is easy to do after a certain point, you find them fairly quickly, you can kill them consistently, and leveling provides Skill Points which let you granularly expand your characters' arsenals of attacks. I found myself getting addicted to it, to the point that I finished the game at the level cap. It felt like "fast, effortless progress", when in fact I was doing naught but continuing to be a parasite upon society.

Different people have different unstated definitions of what is meaningful "progress" and how much time investment they're willing to put in to achieve it. Your thresholds must be very strict, others very loose, mine I'd think somewhere in-between.

 

2 hours ago, Saint Rubenio said:

What's with you guys's recommendations and the promise of games becoming good in X hours?

Shall I suggest Cthulhu Saves Christmas then? I saw a few reviews of it last year, it and they pretty positive, with one reviewer saying they got two runs of the game done in ten hours.😛

-Don't take this seriously. Just pointing a title with a bizarre name and that outright lists "Pacing that doesn't waste your time!" in its sales pitch.

 

---

Yay we're at 3000 pages!🎊

[Acacia Sgt]

I think it can be said that if you need to rely on grinding, is because you can't find the strategy needed to take down the obstacle.

But well, it does depend on the game sometimes.

[Saint Rubenio]

@Armagon

How much longer till the elemental whatever?

3 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Watching the numbers go up.

Yeah, of course, I forgot this. This is a bit moe of a legitimate reason. I'd be fine with grinding in games, I mean, watching the numbers go up is fun. I still have a FE8 save file with almost everyone maxed out in the creature campaign from way back when, I loved doing that. But it should never, ever be a mandatory thing.

4 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Shall I suggest Cthulhu Saves Christmas then? I saw a few reviews of it last year, it and they pretty positive, with one reviewer saying they got two runs of the game done in ten hours.😛

-Don't take this seriously. Just pointing a title with a bizarre name and that outright lists "Pacing that doesn't waste your time!" in its sales pitch.

Okay, that. That looks like the best game ever made.

[Lightcosmo]

5 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

It's repetitive, boring, and oftentimes just a trick the devs use to hide the fact that the game isn't that long.

Well, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. I disagree, but hey, it's not like you enjoying grinding is personally hurting me or anything, haha.

You can argue the same of strategy, though. Most games its one strategy fits all, making them boring/repetitive.

That doesnt mean they have bad design though, just cause you dont like them.

4 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

RPG grind develops no skills upon the part of the player themselves, slaughtering 60 Vigents for their scalps with my Ares 90 teaches me nothing at all. 

I could argue running a strategy in any FE game is just as brain-dead, though. That doesnt make it poorly designed, just not for everyone.

[DragonFlames]

7 hours ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Do have fun!

Thank you, thank you! ^^

2 hours ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Sooo yeah. Ruben off to hate on everyone else's favorite games once more. Oops.

Walking the Draggy path, I see. xD

---

And speaking of me being here again! I do want to continue soon, but first, I wanted to give a small progress report on Ys 8!
So first things first, I finally unlocked the ability to double jump on Adol's side of the story (that for me may as well be Dana's side 2.0, because I have almost exclusively played as her unless there were enemies weak to my other party members. xD), and then I scaled Baja Tower, which gave me some Final Fantasy XIII flashbacks (positive ones, that tower was pretty awesome), and I fought a boss that was a nice callback to older Ys, complete with bullet hell elements and everything!

This dragon... robot, I guess? xD
Pretty fun fight, all things considered!

And then some more lore details, the most standout of which is...

Dana is descended from dinosaurs.
Awesome! xD

Oh, also!
@Shrimperor I have a question concerning skills. How exactly do you learn new ones in this game?
I thought they were tied to character level, but on occasion, I would just unlock new ones basically just because (seemingly)! I got two skills on Dana in pretty short order without her leveling up once, so I'm kinda confused on how that works. xD

[Lightcosmo]

1 minute ago, Saint Rubenio said:

This is a bit moe of a legitimate reason

Saying my reason isnt legit is a tad rude, tbh.

[Shrimpica]

FE lord confirmed

1 minute ago, DragonFlames said:

that tower was pretty awesome

Tower dungeons in Ys are always kino

1 minute ago, DragonFlames said:

How exactly do you learn new ones in this game?
I thought they were tied to character level, but on occasion, I would just unlock new ones basically just because (seemingly)! I got two skills on Dana in pretty short order without her leveling up once, so I'm kinda confused on how that works. xD

From what i know, you learn them by using other Skills most of time

that or skill scrolls

[Saint Rubenio]

Ten years of boss.

Aaaaaaargh.

8 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Walking the Draggy path, I see. xD

So it seems.

Not my fault everyone's taste is shit but mine.

8 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Saying my reason isnt legit is a tad rude, tbh.

Shit, sorry. That was poor phrasing on my part. Didn't mean for it to come across that way. I suppose what I wanted to say is, I can understand that reason more, personally. But no, seriously, I never meant to say that you're wrong to enjoy grinding or anything. It's perfectly fine. I mean, heck, I'm in no position to criticize anyone, I spent way too long on those boss medals in Bloodstained...

Edited July 11, 2021 by Saint Rubenio

[Lightcosmo]

8 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

which gave me some Final Fantasy XIII flashbacks (positive ones, that tower was pretty awesome)

good taste, as always!

[Sooks]

Silver Will?? I was not expecting that. Holy crap, that entire scene was epic.

And it’s gonna serve as the dungeon theme for this specific visit!? Let’s goooo!

[DragonFlames]

2 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

FE lord confirmed

He vaguely resembles Sigurd like this. XD

2 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Tower dungeons in Ys are always kino

So much so that Ys Origin made it the entire game. xD

7 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

From what i know, you learn them by using other Skills most of time

I see, I see! Thanks! ^^

7 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

that or skill scrolls

Oh yeah, I got one for everyone but Ricotta and Dana so far!
Adol's, Laxia's, and especially Hummel's are... VERY strong!

4 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

So it seems.

I know I'm in no position to say this, as I need to be told every other week myself, but I don't think there is anything wrong with liking/disliking things others don't/do.

5 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

good taste, as always!

Hehe! ^^
That part and boss were probably my favorite in the whole game!

[Lightcosmo]

2 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Hehe! ^^
That part and boss were probably my favorite in the whole game!

Really? Interesting! I cant say if I prefer any part, except any situation where Lightning is in the lead! Xd

[DragonFlames]

@Shrimperor: Adol's Ys X design confirmed? XD

[Sooks]

That entire scene was incredible. Absolutely fantastic, wonderful, marvelous, amazing, awesome. This game has good writing.

Edited July 11, 2021 by Sooks

[DragonFlames]

Just now, lightcosmo said:

Really? Interesting! I cant say if I prefer any part, except any situation where Lightning is in the lead! Xd

Yeah, I remember really loving that part and boss in particular when I played the game!

[Saint Rubenio]

Ahahah, I died again.

Fun boss.

I am this close to starting my sixth run of Serie de LagrimaAnillo: Saga de Berwick: Crónicas de Lazberia: Capitulo 174.

[Interdimensional Observer]

24 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

I could argue running a strategy in any FE game is just as brain-dead, though. That doesnt make it poorly designed, just not for everyone.

How does one create challenge in a video game? Simple. All difficulty in video games revolves around four things.:

• Knowledge- The having of information about the game and how it works.
• Wisdom- Being able to apply the information you have towards success. 
• Reflexes- The physical and mental enacting of information (ideally in accordance with knowledge and wisdom) in the moment.
• Luck- It explains itself. That which you cannot control, only work around at most.

Fire Emblem is turn-based, not real time, so reflexes are minimal, as they are in turn-based RPGs. And the things about knowledge and wisdom, is that they are more readily understood and transferred from one player to the next than reflexes. Thus, it is easier to be good at a non-action/real-time RPG than it is something demanding good reflexes like a fighting game or hardcore platformer.

Edited July 11, 2021 by Interdimensional Observer

[Acacia Sgt]

Ah yes. Those situations when 'strategy' boils down to: "Put one/two units in enemy range and watch them wreck everything".

23 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Dana is descended from dinosaurs.
Awesome! xD

Just like in the Mario movie. XD

[Shrimpica]

9 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

He vaguely resembles Sigurd like this. XD

yup, exactly my thought haha

6 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

ayy xD

4 minutes ago, Sooks said:

That entire scene was incredible. Absolutely fantastic, wonderful, marvelous, amazing, awesome. This game has good writing.

❤️

[Saint Rubenio]

Yeah, you know what. Screw this. I'll give it another shot tomorrow.

26 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

You can argue the same of strategy, though. Most games its one strategy fits all, making them boring/repetitive.

That doesnt mean they have bad design though, just cause you dont like them.

I could argue running a strategy in any FE game is just as brain-dead, though. That doesnt make it poorly designed, just not for everyone.

Ah, sorry. Missed this post.

Well... yeah, I suppose that's a fair point. I'd still say that there's more thought process involved in any strategy game, even one that's really easy, than in the act of grinding in a RPG, which just requires you mash the A button forever to get through menus.

4 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Just like in the Mario movie. XD

The one where Mario is bald.

I love that movie.

[Lightcosmo]

2 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

How does one create challenge in a video game? Simple. All difficulty in video games revolves around four things.:

• Knowledge- The having of information about the game and how it works.
• Wisdom- Being able to apply the information you have towards success. 
• Reflexes- This is largely the physical enacting of information in the moment, although there can be a mental component too.
• Luck- It explains itself. That which you cannot control, only work around at most.

Fire Emblem is turn-based, not real time, so reflexes are minimal, as they are in turn-based RPGs. And the things about knowledge and wisdom, is that they are more readily understood and transferred from one player to the next than reflexes. Thus, it is easier to be good at a non-action/real-time RPG than it is something demanding good reflexes like a fighting game or hardcore platformer.

The first three are expectations for difficulty, not choices. And luck should never be considered for difficulty, thats the poorly designed kind imo.

But im not really sure what this is supposed to mean.

[DragonFlames]

5 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Just like in the Mario movie. XD

Oh wow. XD
I admit, I never watched that movie, haha!

3 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

yup, exactly my thought haha

Keep him faaaar away from any source of fire. XD

5 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

ayy xD

XD
I do feel kinda bad for Austin, though. Dude tries his best, at least!

[Lightcosmo]

Just now, Saint Rubenio said:

Ah, sorry. Missed this post.

Well... yeah, I suppose that's a fair point. I'd still say that there's more thought process involved in any strategy game, even one that's really easy, than in the act of grinding in a RPG, which just requires you mash the A button forever to get through menus.

I mean, if your button mashing in a game like KH, most FF games, you wont see the "easy" success you think it will (highest difficulty available, ofc). Whereas most FE games its "run X broken unit in range and watch them do their thing." 

If we let that hold us back, then we would never be willing to give them a chance.