We Need Serenes Forest Mafia Mafia 5 After All! - GAME OVER

[Percivalé]

I was really high last night by the way gg.

I'll elaborate on the eclipse stuff when I get some more sleep.

[Refa]

1 minute ago, Vi-astra said:

JB

I'm in limbo as far as reads go but my vote is on JB and he's my strongest as far as scumreads go

Yeah, that's fair.  Can you explain the JB thing?  I remember reading BBM's read and being like "this is a decent read" but not particularly convinced?  I dunno, I just find the wagon disagreeable but I can't really logically sus out why that is.

[Percivalé]

I will when I wake up refa I got u

also actually now that I'm thinking about it bibbon's unwarranted claim was weird and it was like nobody caught onto it either.

[Refa]

I thought it was town and didn't want to draw attention to it honestly.  Even mafia would be afraid of an ITP (who would definitely want a Jailor dead), so it doesn't really benefit them.

[SB.]

Fairly Belated Votals
Jaybee (5): Marth, BBM, Snike + SatsumaFSoySoy, Via, athena_57
athena_57 (4): eclipse, Refa, Shinori
Weapons (1): Mackc2
Fable (1): Weapons
Zkirsche (1): Junko
Junko (1): Zkirsche
Not Voting: Fenrir Aesir, Bibbon, Lord Gaius, SullyMcGully, Fable, Jaybee, Walrein, zeus_12

You have ~52 hours left in the day.  With 20 alive, it takes 7 to lynch and 14 to hammer.

[BBM]

every time I read a new athena case I reread his posts and I don't really agree with junko's case. i semi-agree with the timing of the satsuma vote removal being suspicious but all the stuff about athena's EoD actions is heavily overblown. there is a kind of inconsistency wrt athena originally being okay with lynching marth earlier on and then not being okay with it near phase end, but there isn't really any scum intent here unless athena and marth are buddies. however, athena does say why he doesn't like the marth wagon (although he's wrong about why the wagon exists) and his bart vote was a pretty clear not-me-over-me so detailed justification doesn't need to exist.

idk it's like... athena isn't really a townread for me anymore because a bunch of the roleclaims today have shifted up towniness of other people and made it more likely he's scum through PoE. but all the cases feel like they're picking at small parts of his play which look bad rather than showing how his posts have an overarching scum motivation?

[BBM]

12 minutes ago, Refa said:

I thought it was town and didn't want to draw attention to it honestly.  Even mafia would be afraid of an ITP (who would definitely want a Jailor dead), so it doesn't really benefit them.

same but now that attention has been drawn to it

eclipse can you c/d?

[Refa]

2 minutes ago, BBM said:

every time I read a new athena case I reread his posts and I don't really agree with junko's case. i semi-agree with the timing of the satsuma vote removal being suspicious but all the stuff about athena's EoD actions is heavily overblown. there is a kind of inconsistency wrt athena originally being okay with lynching marth earlier on and then not being okay with it near phase end, but there isn't really any scum intent here unless athena and marth are buddies. however, athena does say why he doesn't like the marth wagon (although he's wrong about why the wagon exists) and his bart vote was a pretty clear not-me-over-me so detailed justification doesn't need to exist.

idk it's like... athena isn't really a townread for me anymore because a bunch of the roleclaims today have shifted up towniness of other people and made it more likely he's scum through PoE. but all the cases feel like they're picking at small parts of his play which look bad rather than showing how his posts have an overarching scum motivation?

Why is JB scummier than Athena FYPOV?  I've read all of his posts and my thoughts are "that was okay, I guess".

[Jaybee]

and yes I still don't feel right about Bibbon

1. I don't understand the randomness of the jailer claim and it wasn't needed at all. And I can't come up with a good town reason for openly revealing that, just... scummy ones, like towncred.

2. The overall sentiment of this post feels very very wrong to me. Snike has been pushing this athena thing since he subbed in but she's townreading Athena; kirsche and junko have been directing posts at each other the whole game. Are any of them scummy for being persistent in their cases, and if not, why? (outside of this). I mean, you yourself are pushing this Weapons thing pretty hard... (which I do think is legit, I've got my own issues with Weapons but I can't post that now since it's almost 3am).

would mostly like some responses to my earlier post wrt bibbon, I feel better about her than I did D1 but not clear yet.

[Jaybee]

you know what i'm done posting for tonight maybe sunday afternoon will be more productive

[BBM]

22 minutes ago, Jaybee said:

1,2. mm I will admit that I was really lazy on rereading Fable and I don't recall him doing very much else on D1, but I didn't really feel a need to explain why I unvoted because on p9 he did end up giving some reads.

2. well yeah of course i had nothing else to say about Zeus, that was my first comment on him and I'm not sure why this is weird? The eclipse section is poor wording on my part, I meant that I thought she was playing badly but still townish at that point in time.

3. K let me use this to explain my thoughts on the Marth claim.

If I'm scum and I think I'm going to get lynched at some point in town, maybe one thing I do is fakeclaim Delayed because alignment-cops (and anyone else, tbh) won't want to target me. Bartozio had a good post here about the scum benefit of the claim if it's real. I see where everyone else is coming from regarding the town aspect of it, and I disagree with you. I think the eclipse read is a natural development from her exchange with zeus and the issues I mentioned twice.

well yeah of course I didn't remove the vote because I didn't post anything content related between my initial Bart vote and my decision to stick to him end D1. I voiced my reasoning for keeping the vote there clearly, and I also clearly said that I didn't want to pursue the Bibbon case on Day 1 because I wasn't going to be awake by the end of phase and there wasn't a way to push that lynch.

and no, everyone missed the bibbon post, it's back here and i'll follow up on this after

what are your opinions on fable now?

i dislike it because it's like... you're discussing the validity of lynching one person in relation to another person you've never talked about. 

fair enough on the marth claim

i did actually read the bibbon post but forgot to talk about it. this might be semantic but the way you opened the case made me uncomfortable. i know you obviously have no point of reference for fable's meta but it feels like rather than saying "yeah there's this reason for thinking she might be town but it's outweighed by other stuff" it's more like you said "yeah there's this reason for thinking she's town but I'm going to ignore it". reasons 1 and 2 are fine but are stuff that others pointed out. reason 3 is bad bc everyone gets frustrated when they perceive they're being pushed for shitty reasons. town moreso than scum if anything. and 4 flat out makes no sense because how is progressing from "zeus should be vigged" to "zeus should be lynched" waffling? if anything it's the opposite. and why is bibbon specifically the one looking for an easy zeus lynch over the others?

i guess with your bibbon case i don't see much that I can point to and say "this has scum intent" but it just doesn't impress me as content because it's either not original or has stuff that I heavily disagree with.

[Jaybee]

##Vote: Bibbon

sorry bbm i'll respond when i can think straight

[SullyMcGully]

Alright, I skimread up to page 15 and I know everything I need to know!

Just kidding. I still feel like I know nothing. I can say that after looking at Eclipse, Weapons, Via, and Refa's early content, I'm townreading them a bit more. My biggest townread based on what I've read so far is Bartozio, solid townread + would never lynch. I still need to read the important stuff (like how the heck you mislynched Bartozio again) but I need a nap. Sorry! But farmers don't get all of the sleep they want during the night, so this is a regular thing for me. 

Anyway, Bibbon's content is the most suspect of what I've read so far. I don't like their method of stopping by and making little comments on various things without really stringing it all together. I would honestly like to see a wallpost from them. Or a list of reads. Maybe I'll find something in the next 15 pages of unread content that changes my mind though.

Bibbon, if you really are a jailer, and if you really are town, then good going protecting Eclipse. She's a real treasure, especially with Refa off in unmotivatedland. Would sheep just about anything she says, but I don't think I would get away with doing that.

[Refa]

@Snike

36 minutes ago, SB. said:

Fairly Belated Votals
Jaybee (5): Marth, BBM, Snike + SatsumaFSoySoy, Via, athena_57
athena_57 (4): eclipse, Refa, Shinori
Weapons (1): Mackc2
Fable (1): Weapons
Zkirsche (1): Junko
Junko (1): Zkirsche
Not Voting: Fenrir Aesir, Bibbon, Lord Gaius, SullyMcGully, Fable, Jaybee, Walrein, zeus_12

You have ~52 hours left in the day.  With 20 alive, it takes 7 to lynch and 14 to hammer.

 

[BBM]

16 minutes ago, Refa said:

Why is JB scummier than Athena FYPOV?  I've read all of his posts and my thoughts are "that was okay, I guess".

that's basically how I feel when I read athena's posts lol. i guess looking back at my case on JB I agree that I don't show many instances of scum intent on JB's part. but the fable stuff is genuinely really scummy and opportunistic imo and I read the rest of his posts and think "this isn't really a good post".

13 minutes ago, Jaybee said:

and yes I still don't feel right about Bibbon

1. I don't understand the randomness of the jailer claim and it wasn't needed at all. And I can't come up with a good town reason for openly revealing that, just... scummy ones, like towncred.

2. The overall sentiment of this post feels very very wrong to me. Snike has been pushing this athena thing since he subbed in but she's townreading Athena; kirsche and junko have been directing posts at each other the whole game. Are any of them scummy for being persistent in their cases, and if not, why? (outside of this). I mean, you yourself are pushing this Weapons thing pretty hard... (which I do think is legit, I've got my own issues with Weapons but I can't post that now since it's almost 3am).

would mostly like some responses to my earlier post wrt bibbon, I feel better about her than I did D1 but not clear yet.

like this post- it doesn't really benefit scum to claim when not necessary either. now scum!bibbon has to use the jailer in a way that satisfies town and the longer she survives people will think "why haven't scum killed this protective role yet".

i don't really know what he's getting at in the second reason at all. just because she says that i'm town for dropping a case doesn't mean that everyone ever who doesn't drop a case has to be scum.

anyways gonna take a break will be back later and reread kirsche and eclipse. i didn't like what jb really said in terms of content but his reaction under pressure and ratio of defence vs pushing cases seemed townie which is frustrating bc i dont know who else could be scum.

[Snike]

TFW editor restores content from day 1. Over and over and over and over.

Page 35

@eclipseI think martyr/decoy/action absorber can be a scum role; it messes with town's intended actions + if they have strongwilled (unredirectable) it can act like a safeguard. I thought reflexive disabler was kinda a scummy role along the same lines. 

Jailkeeper and macho Mackrole are kinda weird though; I think martyr would have higher priority but doesn't jailkeep hook as well?

@WeaponsofMassConstruction I still think it's inconsistent especially with the turnaround; agree to disagree

Page 36-37

@Bibbon why claim as protective in a game this large? And you're almost me off of casing; is my narrative shifting? I feel like you determined that athena was town and are dug in on that;

On weapons: I'm going to throw meta (wrtFableplay) back at you and say what I've been saying; which is that his longer text stuff has been throwing me off, but his short witticisms + trolling is classic townMeta Him and I  am reading it as null; I think he's trying out a new posting style (this is like me in the past few games) and it's throwing people off one way or the other.

@Junk He was also talking a lot about the zeus/athena interaction so I don't get where you're going about most of his read was from a sats post

I don't agree with the refa case but I can't read him rn; I think I can see the kirsche case.

On Marth asking to heil hydra or sub; I think that's null tbh. What if he hydra'd with us???

I already flamed refa; I am glad that it looks like he has seen the light; makes me feel a little better but I'm hesitant to commit to 100% townread rn (Gut/paranoia speaking)

Page 38

I am starting to see the rolestuff but I don't think clearing on rolebasis is a good idea; at the same time I'm in a bit of a mess around the protectives in game, see above.

Page 39

@athena_57

1) I disagree; you were pushing me to ask questions at dl without already responding to what was on Page 24; you missed both kirsche and I's stuff even though there was 20 minute windows +/- between them and your posts. All of it was on P24. I don't want to talk irl reasons so I'm going to leave that alone;

2)You were explaining bart's thought process and disagreeing with it, which is something that tends to happen as town. The next post I highlight has you backing away from him. That is backpedaling

The point was you got called on Bartozio's support and get defensive/distance yourself from him; This is also the OMGUS post that I cased page 24 and I think it is a noticeable shift away/backpedal. The quotes are there for the game to judge, however.

This isn't a misrep IMO.

You later townread weapons again in this post; why is the network not on him?

Why am I unmentioned? You call my stuff overblown and misrepped but then leave me as unnamed on list. ? ? ?

I don't think we should necessarily out tarots; It was a remark I made after noticing them in the first place + I agree that it's probably not friendly.

;/

@SullyMcGully

Bibbons is a girl.

I feel like you should clarify bc it's confusing; I think if you got a result though your role was not blocked is the thing;

I don't think sully's scum atm more like newb town.

@Zkirsche

Sully isn't voting Bibbons though?

I really don't get the nightmare voteswap stuff either; I actually kinda forgot he moved on nightmare bc he's not pushing anything very strongly.

End of page 39 stuff: I don't know how to deal with this but I think sully needs to explain what's going on?

40)

Refa and Athena back and forth; I feel like this reflects badly on athena bc he's more or less conceding the point/being amiable; which scum sometimes does to defuse an argument.

I don't have a problem w/ shinori stuff but I disagree on BBM/Refa, more strongly about BBM than about refa.

END OF thread catch up to where I replied

-not impressed by the JB recent post but at the same time it's not overly scummy? I think defense to athena's reasonable but the other stuff is ;/

@BBM It's ok to call my case nitpicky; but I feel like if there's a bunch of inconsistencies over and over and over, it's more likely scum than town. Like it keeps happening and happening and happening; calling my stuff overblown.

-I have a problem w/ reading bibbon because I kinda scumread her but both her + fable are throwing me for a loop playwise; this might be because I'm reading them as a unit but I don't follow their thought processes.

@Refa Is that to ping the wagon? I was explaining why I voted at that time and I think my impression was wrong; I've said athena's been consistently scum all today.

##Unvote

##Vote: Athena_57

I don't think I need to reiterate this time.

@zeus_112 show up; it's day 2, and you're not bread. If you're town, contribute.

@eclipse Regarding lewd comment; were you responsible for George entering my possession?

 

 

 

[Snike]

to clarify, I've been saying, (look at my last post last night w/ the reads in the spoiler) that I think athena's scum consistently. I word order goofed.

 

[Refa]

I just wanted to see how you'd react to JB having more votes than Athena considering your vote on JB was to pressure him since Athena already had enough.  As town, I'd either expect a vote swap from you or an explanation on why you think JB's gotten worse, not to say that your vote was inconsistent.

Why is Macho Martyr a scum role?

[Refa]

I asked SB and he said Martyr would generally redirect kills (I'm assuming a Scum!Martyr would not), so IMO it'd be pretty easy to catch if he doesn't end up dying while obvious kill targets do.  We even have one of those for tonight!

[Snike]

Macho Martyr reminds me of resurgence where I think Poet was the same role w/a bpv

Macho martyr also can indirectly make a scumbuddy unhookable by removing any interference from them

And it can't just hog the presumed protection target and not die from outside play kills bc macho

You do have a point about the kill targets; I don't think i'm going to push on it for today despite what I said earlier + I'm honestly a little concerned by how my nightmare + jb reads line up with athena's.

[Snike]

A thing that bothers me though is that I would think martyr would be macho if there's a doctor in the game to prevent an omniloop.

But I don't think that loop works with jailkeeper in play? That's what I'm kinda ???ing at right now.

[Refa]

1 minute ago, Snike said:

Macho Martyr reminds me of resurgence where I think Poet was the same role w/a bpv

Macho martyr also can indirectly make a scumbuddy unhookable by removing any interference from them

And it can't just hog the presumed protection target and not die from outside play kills bc macho

You do have a point about the kill targets; I don't think i'm going to push on it for today despite what I said earlier + I'm honestly a little concerned by how my nightmare + jb reads line up with athena's.

Yeah, both of those are true but FMPOV I'm not Nightmare's scumbuddy and he's been proven to target me.  I don't think Scum!Nightmare benefits much from martyring me other than for towncred, which is kind of nebulous.

Just now, Snike said:

A thing that bothers me though is that I would think martyr would be macho if there's a doctor in the game to prevent an omniloop.

But I don't think that loop works with jailkeeper in play? That's what I'm kinda ???ing at right now.

@Mackc2 Should ask the mod about this interaction.  He doesn't need to tell us about it, but it's something he should ask.

[Refa]

Okay, so just for the record, I think I am wrong about how townie Nightmare and Marth's claims have been, but how Nightmare used it seems to be more likely to come from town and literally no one has talked to me about Marth's claim!  It's very eerie...

[Snike]

Spoiler

5

5 POSTS

SF PLEASE

I can see your reasoning; like I said I am not going to push today, since it's not like there's a lack of viable targets.

The thing about marthclaim is no one's apparently bothered to test it; not even flakieson. It's a ??? to us afaik.

I want to talk about network targets again; I have already said my bit about athena's choice of target (Bibbon was also a townread option before you p10) but fable for the other? I thought it was bibbon who networked him before the jailkeep claim but I think that choice was bizarre.

[Shinori]

26 minutes ago, Snike said:

@eclipse Regarding lewd comment; were you responsible for George entering my possession?

Not really around at the moment as I'm not feeling well and I don't mean to Hijack your question towards Eclipse but can we stop role digging and fishing.

There have been a lot of claims and people asking for claims or people asking about night actions and I don't think it's all that helpful.  Unless we are planning to just outright massclaim today which I think is a terrible idea.