We Need Serenes Forest Mafia Mafia 5 After All! - GAME OVER

[Mackc2]

Should probably mention I am townreading Refa and BBM, both have talked a lot and said anything that has made me think they are scum, If anyone wants to directly ask me a question shoot now, I'll be going to do other stuff in a few minutes and will probably stop being co-operative 

[Percivalé]

mack if I were a third party why would I claim my role the way I did. if you've read only my content today I'd be like meh at you coming to that conclusion because I have been playing like shit today but really?

[SullyMcGully]

On 4/11/2018 at 11:33 PM, Bibbon said:

I typically tend to be a low poster, and I don't make elaborate reads list and stuff. If you don't believe me, I can link some of my MU games. I don't like how BBM keeps pushing that, but whatever. 

I... could buy this...

On 4/12/2018 at 3:16 PM, Jaybee said:

Alright, time to see how far I get on Bibbon! I think she's scum, regardless of what Fable says about her meta.

1. The reluctance to divulge info. I don't see the benefit of you hiding your scumreads on Day 1 at all, you mentioning them but not revealing them gave me the impression that you were scared they would backfire and look bad on you. Which I think is very scummy.

2. Athena's initial wagon. You said you thought there was scum on the wagon and... that's it? I mean, if you say there's scum on the wagon but you don't do anything about it that sounds scummy to me. Appearing to contribute, but not actually providing any meat.

3. The tone of this was overly defensive, same as Bart's earlier post that got me to vote for him. I think easily getting frustrated on early phases is more of a scumtell because there's more pressure on you, and you seem to get very angry over nothing.

4. The waffling on the Zeus vote. You were fine with him, very much in agreement that he should be vigged, then suddenly ??? you voted him? You said you found this 'manipulative' and you phrase it here as though it's a scumplan of some sorts? (I lost my train of thought here, apologies). But, to be frank, Zeus is playing the worst I've ever seen; do you think this post is actually some kind of scum play? Because I just see someone who has no idea what's going on and doesn't care to figure it out. So either he's making some insane meta play, or it's actually just bs and you're scum who decided to double down on an easy lynch.

would look for a d2 lynch, i don't think there's enough time to go for her today.

But then I read this post and I decided that I really liked it. I know it's an old read and that if you ask a lot of people here JB is actually scum but I think it sums up my own issues with Bibbon pretty well. Especially that first point. Reconciling that with how she just blurted out that Jailer claim almost makes it seem reactionary. I'd say there's still a good chance that Bibbon could be town, but I really want to hear more from her so I can come to a better conclusion. Keeping my vote there for the moment...

@Zkirsche I can't quite put my finger on it, but some of your D1 material feels scummy to me. "But Sully, you have to quote posts and make a case in order to accuse someone like that!" I know, I know. Gosh I hate that part of Mafia. I'll make a case if I have time later (I really wanna take a look at your ISO first) but for now, just know that you are being suspected. 

After skimming over D1, I'm finding Zeus really pointless (a very unique conclusion to come to, I know). Agreeing with a lot of the previously stated logic there, I get how his playstyle kinda makes him look like newbtown but I was newbtown not so long ago and I would never have done any of that. He's definitely demotivated. While he's fended off a few accusations that he was scum, he has said nothing to address the fact that a lot of players want to kill him anyway for just being useless. I want to hear more from him but I'm about 50% sure he already hates this game and is never going to come back again. If he flakes, I called it.

@Fable I feel ya, man. I personally would love to play as you do and only post as my spirit leads me. But that doesn't really go over well around here. Get substantial reads soon, your relative non-suspiciousness is making me envious because I had a hellish time trying to act like you are acting in my first game. 

OK, so I'm seeing two big wagons at the end of D1, Athena and Bart. Bart died. He was town. Y'all know about that already. So I've got a nagging suspicion... while I understand a lot of the reasons for thinking Athena is scum, I'm noticing a lot of people were split between which of the two wagons to pick at the end of D1. People like Fenrir and Refa and multiple others. I kind of feel like one of the people who couldn't make up their mind about which wagon to jump on might have been scum. I don't have a lot to back this up (y'all know how I love my speculation) but it almost feels like the scumteam was OK with both Bart and Athena lynches. Meaning that they were both not scum presumably. 

Now, I'm almost certain I missed a few important things in my readthrough (I really suck at this part of Mafia) but if I'm remembering things right, Athena never actively tried to push people onto the Bart wagon even when it seemed like there was a fair chance that Athena would be the lynch target. Now pushing people onto the counter-wagon is something you would expect scum to do. Heck, even town would do that to save their skins. And maybe the situation wasn't as tense as I think it was (I wasn't there at the time), but if I'm seeing all of this right, then I think Athena is less scummy for maintaining a town outlook in the face of impending mislynch and that one or more of the people pushing an Athena lynch right now are scum. 

Wow, that was a long post full of nothing but conjecture for the most part. Hopefully I'll be able to post some more substantial reads now that I am actually present for what's going on. 

Also, @Vi-astra sorry for maligning you. After reading over your insomniac shift I'm pretty sure you aren't scum. I'll just have to see where this "3rd party" stuff goes (3rd party means SK, right? Shouldn't there have been two kills last night then?) but for now you are clear in my book. 

I'd like to hear more from @Fenrir Aesir. Also, if some of you could critique my wild fantasy up there ^^^ or tell me about something I missed, I'd be appreciative.

I think I was going to write something else... but I forgot.

[SullyMcGully]

Y'know, when I started writing that post bedtime was a few hours away. Now it is here. So I guess I'll check out reactions on the morrow. 

[Percivalé]

3 minutes ago, SullyMcGully said:

Also, @Vi-astra sorry for maligning you. After reading over your insomniac shift I'm pretty sure you aren't scum. I'll just have to see where this "3rd party" stuff goes (3rd party means SK, right? Shouldn't there have been two kills last night then?) but for now you are clear in my book. 

it's okay, I've yet to post really meaty stuff today so I don't really mind it, I was gonna attempt after this post though. I've been a little demotivated after the nightmare claim stuff so I've been hanging on other peoples' JB cases since he was my second strongest scumread before nightmare.

FTR SK is a 3rd party role, but it's not the only 3rd party role. there are 3rds with a bunch of different wincons and while we're used to seeing 3rds that are threats to town, some 3rds have pretty innocuous wincons that don't interfere with town wincon (like survivor for example, whose wincon is just to survive to the end of the game, in which case they could side with town or scum).

there were people who were assuming I was third and my wincon was to match everyone's characters to them, and while I understand that's a fear 1. if that were the case it's still in my best interests to cooperate with town anyway, and 2. that kinda sucks as a third party role anyway because how else am I supposed to win if I don't publicly claim? I can wait until the game gets down to massclaim, but there's no guarantee I'll survive to that point, and it's a shitty 3rd role if you have to intentionally draw attention to yourself to win. I'm having flashbacks to that game I played where I was third with a fucking unbelievably unwinnable wincon.

[Refa]

Survivors aren't innocuous!  They're the fairweather friends of mafia.

[Percivalé]

if town is winning they might as well be, but I guess that was a bad example.

another thing though if I were 3rd I would have just claimed 3rd because like if I don't interfere with town wincon anyway I might as well be honest right? I know this site Hates All Thirds and that is not a can of worms I'm gonna open right now (I'm gonna get mega salty lol................................) but this is dumb to talk about anyway cuz I'm town and not third and if this game has a third well hello there buddy.

[Fable]

13 minutes ago, SullyMcGully said:

 

@Fable I feel ya, man. I personally would love to play as you do and only post as my spirit leads me. But that doesn't really go over well around here. Get substantial reads soon, your relative non-suspiciousness is making me envious because I had a hellish time trying to act like you are acting in my first game. 

 

Yee I can tell, I'm stubborn though and believe in my process. :p

Also this might be my first game here but it's game like 100 and w/e overall so I know what I'm doing it's more just getting use to site meta more than anything else rn.

Oh and about bibbon she claimed for no reason last game we played too, I'm not sure why she does that but it is a thing she does. 

I'm gonna read over Eury now just so I can cross something off my to do list and give myself less work for tomorrow. 

[Snike]

You missed marth wagon @SullyMcGully

I don't know why fenrir is being maligned as well given that I was the one who told him to move onto bartozio;  as far as I remember he was on athena with me until I moved to secure A Lynch. I do want him to come back though bc I was reading him town for end of phase.

And I disagree w/ athena stuff kinda. He wasn't pushing bart but he was sheeping the read all day and he didn't push anyone outside of satsuma? Not v proactive in any case imo.

I also don't think we should be lynching Bibbons today unless her play seriously deteriorates; Doc claim lynch, while tempting, is not a good idea.

@Vi-astra Warlock best third role get at me. Also my condolences for SKnam flashbacks.

More seriously, is this in line w/town sully? I don't think I've played with him in standard.

[Fable]

I think I'm willing to sheep Eury on Shinori so he can be bumped up to a V read. 

Other than that not getting a whole lot out of the ISO.  Wolf reads on me, Bibbon, and Zeus, I know the read on me is wrong and I'm still very confidant bibbon is a villager so maybe Zeus but that's not a reason to NK Eury I don't think. Voted Athena which I went over why that's not necessarily damning for him so I guess it's not an argument for village!athena either per se. There was early suspicion on Weapons, Kirsche, and BBM which lines up with what I was thinking coming into today though BBM switches to a V read later.  Lynch preferences besides the three previously mentioned were marth and junko so reading through them again might be worth it though I doubt I'm flipping on marth. 

Not a super damning ISO against anyone in particular, I suppose it might have just been an SPK but I guess it looks the worse for Zeus, Weapons, and Junko (I guess bibbon and marth too but I really do think they're villagers).  I should probably read Junko because I literally can't remember a single one of his posts. 

[Shinori]

50 minutes ago, Mackc2 said:

Athena is a case that everyone has mentioned but I want to add to it that they seemed to be adamant on protecting themselves especially mid D1, Scum would want to avoid being lynched more than town. 

Kirsche bothers me because they seem to also be tunelling Junko, There is a post they made here that really worries me most, though they might just be stubborn town, but his argument just reads to me as, 'I don't really care what you say, you are the enemy' 
Also just a quick thing Junko specifically seems like an easy vote because of the sparsity of his content.

And Fable, it seems like they are talking a bit but not doing much, also going to mention Bibbon here cause I keep getting the two mixed up and they both seem so forgettable. 

Weapons doesn't bother me much, they seem to be being productive to town in between the trolling, I'm not really sure, I forget most of their posts. 
Finally as someone who talks to Sully a bit I don't think his current attitude is scum I think it is just Sully being Sully. 

tl;dr ##Vote Kirsche 

From this post all I can get is that you scum read Athena and Kirsche but you kind of hand wave Junko.  Do you feel Junko is town then?  Also how about Kirsch'es Day 1 play?  The later half of Day 1 is where my of my summy vibes come from Kirsche whereas you seem to say he's more scummy solely because he's tunnling on Junko and it's an easy vote?  You mention a comment based on one post he made but didn't comment about why it worries you outside of the one sentence I bolded.  What else about Kirsche's play is bad in your eyes?  I can agree with the Fable statement, he hasn't really done much and I'd like to see them do more @Fable 

@SullyMcGully Do you think Bibbon is scum Jailor?  You specifically said in your post where you vote Bibbon that he's your most suspicious read but didn't really say why unless I missed it in a different post?  I didn't see anything about Bibbon really on page 43 or 44 from you so I'd like a bit of explanation on that Bibbon read.  I'm definitely not voting Bibbon btw.  Also I don't understand your argument where you state the following: 

You felt scum were okay with lynching either Bart or Athena.

You feel that someone who wasn't sure of who to vote is probably scum.

IF scum is okay with lynching either of them they are the least likely to be wishy washy about who to vote in that situation.  What about Athena's overall play?  What in his play says town to you?  I ask this because I am assuming you are reading him as town based off of your words and I'd just like to get some thought process behind it.  I felt during day 1 he was more reactionary and more defensive while at the same time kind of fanning the flames when someone else gained any pressure on them whatsoever.  That seems more scum-fueled than town-sided in my eyes.  I still think the Refa target is weird in my eyes but I can't say much outside of the fact that I disagree with it.  Supposedly he said Refa felt like 'detached townie' to him but I personally don't remember him talking about Refa all that much.

I kind of struggled to get this post out and I'm not feeling the best so I may not be around much for the rest of the night.

Also Snike sucks.  He beat me to some of the 'Against Athena' Points that I was gonna state in response to Sully.  Also I think mods suck also.

[Fable]

MFW I get told to do things as I'm doing things.

Feelsbadman

[Shinori]

Don't be like that Fable.  I love you for doing things! As long as you aren't bastard scum.

In which case there's a noose ready for you. <3

[Snike]

@Fable did you end up isoing Bartozio and pick up anything from that?

Also rip shinori. If it helps i'm taking off for the night right now; so feel free to carry the torch.

Re:Athena/refa. He mentioned that page 10 like I said; it was a single line and wasn't carried forward through rest of the day.

Last thoughts for tonight:

-Still want athena lynch, though Zeus is a slot that needs to be dealt with sooner rather than later. Would not be opposed to consolidate on since he's flaking hard + it could give associatives on bibbons eclipse & athena.

-I don't want bibbons lynched today bc doc variant claim though I find her play odd.

-I am dropping Mack slot rn bc he should be dead next phase. I'm not entirely sure why he's defending junko?

Good night, thread.

[Refa]

@Bibbon What do you think of Fable?  I remember townreading him D1 but I'm kind of waffling on my read (I don't think he's done anything overtly scummy but it feels like there's less that stands out compared to last phase).

[Fable]

I'm not reading bartozio, in the middle of reading junko. 

[Fable]

Also I literally said I was going to be busy most of today and I was going to do most of the work this phase on sunday smh. 

[Fable]

Junko's ISO is super weird, like his process appears genuine at places (for like 2-3 posts) but he's hardcore all in on kirsche and has been pretty much all game and there isn't a ton on anyone else.  I guess the thing that really turns me off about Junko is the extent of the tunnel without any posts being directed at kirsche at all (there was a small one but there should be more). 

[eclipse]

So now that I'm More Awake (as in, not posting after work or in the middle of a food reaction), it's time to get to what I missed.  Sorry kirsche, I'm going to outdo Shinori's quote walls.

On 4/13/2018 at 3:15 PM, Fable said:

Does killing on a athena wagon make athena look better or worse? Not for nothing but if I'm wolf!athena and I'm killing for the sole purpose of hoping my wagon doesn't gain traction again I'd probably kill eclipse but maybe that'd be too obvious. 

Mafia kills for whatever reason they want.  My theory is that trying to drive a case on Eury means wading through her walls, so it's faster to get rid of her via NK.

On 4/13/2018 at 3:37 PM, Magnificence Incarnate said:

From memory soysoy did not claim role miller at the start of the game right? I have a feeling that the claim might be fake if itcame from Snike later in the game when he subbed in. I'll have to read they thread again when I get time but now I'll ##vote:jb

What.

No, really, what.

Satsuma's new here, and from what I can tell, he's from a place that doesn't say squat about roles (something we should emulate).  Snike, being the seasoned paranoid SFer, would've caught that.

On 4/13/2018 at 4:06 PM, Magnificence Incarnate said:

Ngl as much as weapons isn't doing anything I low-key enjoy his trolling. He should seriously respond with some reads. What're your thoughts on eod weapons? 

I feel like Walrein might be scum after flaking past ed1, their play is starting to give me antihero flashbacks where they stirred up stuff early and then flaked.

And then you post shade on a guy that doesn't show up, right when YOU announce that you're not going to show up.

21 hours ago, BBM said:

my feeling about kirsche is that I haven't really agreed with his cases much but I've felt that he hasn't really been playing much to scum meta? he's not tunneling as much as i would expect and he seems more willing to re-evaluate stuff.

His Junko vote isn't a tunnel at this point?

21 hours ago, Vi-astra said:

im prims and if i guess everyone's characters correctly during the night phase i get a new role. until then i'm kind of a vanilla.

. . .wait.  SHIT.  I think I get it.

Remember that weird post I pinged you on?  Pretend someone that wasn't me posted that.

21 hours ago, Bibbon said:

I'm good at seeing contexts and narratives, which is how I scum hunt. I don't harp on players for flaws in logic, that is, if their actions make sense.  Because I know that both village and wolf do that, since most people aren't logical all the time. This is why a more effective method of catching scum is by seeing how their narrative shifts. You have done that several times this game. You dropped your vote on Athena and now focused on two different players. Your "joke" vote earlier, the parked vote on Fable, it does not follow one consistent narrative. This is why I think you're scum. 

The Fable thing, at least, came from the super-tiny D1 announcement.  It wasn't completely out of left field.

While I think claiming your action at this time wasn't particularly productive, I think you're town.  Can't see why scum!you would target me last night.

16 hours ago, athena_57 said:

I am extremely bothered by this post. I have already responded to this previously, saying Marth and Zeus were both null, but I wanted Zeus vigged, not hanged.

And most importantly I disagree a Zeus lynch would have provided associative reads on the 3 of us, let alone extremely strong ones. I do not see how him flipping either town or scum leaves any of us looking better or worse.

Oh, yes, it would've provided good reads on the three of us.  Bibbon was sort-of the good cop, I was the asshole cop, and you were the guy who was in the interrogation room taking notes.  If anything, scum!you has every reason NOT to have zeus lynched, if we're talking associative reads.

13 hours ago, Zkirsche said:

I don't care if you explained it doesn't make sense I explained why it made sense so address that please instead of substituting your own reality and version of events. Bolded shows complete lack of an attempt to think things through from my perspective.

I really don't like this, tonally.  If athena was hyper-aggressive on Satsuma D1, this is taking it up to eleven.  Junko's tone is really passive, and that's what makes it so jarring.

12 hours ago, Zkirsche said:

I feel like I just let Sully rolefish me

What did scum gain from that exchange, other than the fact that you're an active role?

9 hours ago, Refa said:

Via, who are you scumreading again?  My amnesia is OP.

Hey, take notes or something. ;/

1 hour ago, SullyMcGully said:

Now, I'm almost certain I missed a few important things in my readthrough (I really suck at this part of Mafia) but if I'm remembering things right, Athena never actively tried to push people onto the Bart wagon even when it seemed like there was a fair chance that Athena would be the lynch target. Now pushing people onto the counter-wagon is something you would expect scum to do. Heck, even town would do that to save their skins. And maybe the situation wasn't as tense as I think it was (I wasn't there at the time), but if I'm seeing all of this right, then I think Athena is less scummy for maintaining a town outlook in the face of impending mislynch and that one or more of the people pushing an Athena lynch right now are scum.

This would be a good argument for athena. . .if it wasn't for the fact that it was crunch time, and a D1 no lynch would've been great for scum.  Despite Snike actively pushing people towards Bart, I'm not scumreading him for that.

---

With that, I have a clearer read on Marth, and it's not good.  The timing of his trip is absolute crap, but his content is a lot worse than I remember it.  kirsche is starting to wander into scum territory, because of how he's tunneling Junko - given Junko's insane passiveness, his approach looks like someone trying to beat his target into submission.  Still not sold on athena, and would gladly support a lynch here.  However. . .

##Unvote
##Vote: Marth

I can't ignore this any longer.  That Satsuma statement reeks of throwing shade for the sake of throwing shade, and Walrein going poof means nothing.

@Lord Gaius are you done reading yet?

[Percivalé]

@eclipse ohh, so like, RP?

[Iris]

Bibbon and Junko have requested subs.

Looking for more subs. . .

Will put out Votals in a few.

[eclipse]

1 hour ago, Vi-astra said:

@eclipse ohh, so like, RP?

Tee-hee~!

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

##Unvote

##Vote: kirsche

eh

[Refa]

but why tho

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

10 hours ago, athena_57 said:

You are unmentioned because you're null. What bothers me about you is, like you said, the nitpicking and overblowing of small things in my play. I am not certain however, whether you're scum trying to frame me and desperately searching my posts for things to do it with or a townie tunneling super hard under the assumption they found scum.
I could see it being both, which is why you're a member of the null pile, albeit a notable one.

I don't think this defense is valid. I don't think Snike has been nitpicking or overblowing anything. Snike has been basing his wagon on actual actions and interactions you did, mostly the ones you had with Zeus and I, and it took place across most of Day 1. There is conjecture, of course, but there is also context and a timeline to the logic.

Nitpicky and overblown would be Magnificence's case on Junk, which was just a comment about Junk being flaky, except Junk was showing uncertainty within the same sentences, and not over time after important things happened.